IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1947911:date=Jun 29 2012, 09:03 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 29 2012, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, but it's pretty much already what you're asking for. That jetpacks can't recharge in the air.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They can actually, from what i have seen personally at least. Jet pack up..and then watch it start recharging before you hit the ground. You can test this yourself easily on your first try, i bet.
But besides this semantic, what im saying is not necessarily to only recharge on the ground..<b> but rather just to extend that time of 0.7</b> There could be plenty of instances where you land momentarily on some ledge or wire or dropship and wala you start recharging.. too many situations to account for - just extend the time already established.
This won't interfere with what we know as the "JP feel" or it's properly used effectiveness of dodging whats on the ground - it simply makes it more <i>counterable</i> more frequently, if only until performance is fixed.
<i>Though I'm up for any other ideas too.. ?</i> :-/
I agree, the fact that marines spend 99% of their time in the air once they have researched JP is vastly overpowered. They are practically immune to skulks and onos unless they are either stupid or get surprised, and even if they are, they still have a great chance of surviving. And for 10 resources, everyone has them. The aliens currently dont even remotely have a counter to this. It is usually gg after i see them with JP as an alien.
This could all be fixed with just making the recharge rate slower or a cooldown on the recharge. The way the JP is currently set up, is just blatantly game breaking.
again, jetpackers can be killed, the problem is that they are so cheap and marine lifetimes are extended so much by their purchase that marines, once acquiring jetpack tech, can constantly reinforce with waves of jp'ers. once you defeat them, they just come swarming back. adjusting the cost back to 20 pres should fix the problem.
Make it so leap actually makes you go somewhere. Leaping upwards at Jetpacks is useless. Also fix the Onos, which is now known as the Slonos. It's sooooooooo slow.
<!--quoteo(post=1947702:date=Jun 29 2012, 10:33 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jun 29 2012, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see it as analogous to zerg players asking how to counter 200 supply of void rays in sc2. For those that aren't familiar, its a very powerful air unit that can attack air and ground. Nearly uncounterable in mass.
The answer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the answer is fungal growth, which functions like web did in ns1 for this purpose (voiding any circumstantial arguments about economy/timing/skill level/...)
<!--quoteo(post=1948288:date=Jul 1 2012, 06:06 PM:name=Death_by_bullets)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Death_by_bullets @ Jul 1 2012, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Make it so leap actually makes you go somewhere. Leaping upwards at Jetpacks is useless. Also fix the Onos, which is now known as the Slonos. It's sooooooooo slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Use Celerity or the Shift Key to charge out. If you die, you overextended anyways. Or it was a really close fight. It happens.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1948245:date=Jul 1 2012, 01:33 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 1 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->again, jetpackers can be killed,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Can be killed" is not analogous to Overpowered. Also: As mentioned above, adjusting cost adjusts frequency, and that can be tampered with after the underlying issue is fixed first. Unless you think there is no issue with aliens interacting with jetpackers?
<!--quoteo(post=1948314:date=Jul 2 2012, 08:17 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 2 2012, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948314"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Can be killed" is not analogous to Overpowered. Also: As mentioned above, adjusting cost adjusts frequency, and that can be tampered with after the underlying issue is fixed first. Unless you think there is no issue with aliens interacting with jetpackers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The underlying issue is leap and blink, not the jetpack. Making the jetpack worse like it used to be just leads to no commanders researching them, because theres better places to use that res. Another big issue is level design, a lot of the hive rooms and other keyareas in maps are big rooms with high ceiling, of course a ranged flying class is at advantage there. When you get the jump on jetpackers at tight corridors its a whole different story.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
First it was delays. Everyone was so sure and it was the only suggestion brought forth after i asked. They were fixed. Now its leap and blink... No offense, but i think you are just avoiding something.. Blink isnt changing anytime soon i dont think - its just fine. Leap may or may not get adjusted, but you currently have more than enough air control while leaping to get at a jetpacker.
So forgive me if i think what i said earlier still holds true: <!--quoteo(post=1947582:date=Jun 28 2012, 09:08 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 28 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's hoping once Exo goes in public builds, people will call for a little less JP recharging, as yeah, okay, its fun to be a marine when you have one but being on the receiving end is just frustrating - and thus hopefully people will call for a change in the name of balance once the novelty wears off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean, does the fact that a JPer can stay in air for so long / so frequently not seem...<b> skill less </b>to you as it does me? imo it should be a timed thing - if you fail to kill the alien beneath you while you have said air advantage you should be vulnerable for slightly longer than what is current.. but like i said, i understand people's concern over having that novelty of feeling overpowered/safe removed. So i'll just leave this one alone :)
I remember me posting - delays was part of the problem, but its <b>actually the alien movement</b> => blink, and leap that needs to be adjusted(lerk as a whole) to handle the jp problem (in the same way aliens handled it in ns1, were jetpacks had even longer air time than they ever had in ns2)
edit: im also pretty sure you could ask every competitive player (at least euro. dont have too much contact with us guys) that would have said the same (if they didnt already somewhere)...
<!--quoteo(post=1948321:date=Jul 2 2012, 08:41 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 2 2012, 08:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First it was delays. Everyone was so sure and it was the only suggestion brought forth after i asked. They were fixed. Now its leap and blink... No offense, but i think you are just avoiding something.. Blink isnt changing anytime soon i dont think - its just fine. Leap may or may not get adjusted, but you currently have more than enough air control while leaping to get at a jetpacker.
So forgive me if i think what i said earlier still holds true:
I mean, does the fact that a JPer can stay in air for so long / so frequently not seem...<b> skill less </b>to you as it does me? imo it should be a timed thing - if you fail to kill the alien beneath you while you have said air advantage you should be vulnerable for slightly longer than what is current.. but like i said, i understand people's concern over having that novelty of feeling overpowered/safe removed. So i'll just leave this one alone :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any hidden crap/delay is a problem. And of course you can just say everyone thought it was just the delays, but it isnt. The alien movement is still very, very bad. It lacks any momentum especially for the fade. How can you call blink fine? It relies on invisibility damage reduction that requires you to read the lua code to have any idea how the ###### it even works,just to keep the lifeform alive. Blink is an abomination if you ask me.
Jetpack has been slowly nerfed each patch so Id hate to see it get much worse, the fuel recharge has been changed recently despite what is said, and does feel a little slower this patch to me (havent checked numbers tho, could just be friction or other changes/fps). The problem is the blink movement system, and leap... Its always been the problem..
Leap now being tied to the second hive means it can be better so its more usable to fight jetpacks. Regarding blink, fades are still pretty rough to play, and honestly what was abusable before is now required. I have said before and its worth repeating, having the damage reduction blink system is extremely difficult to balance, and leads to very frustrating/gimmicky gameplay. Landing a shot 10ms too late is the difference between killing a fade or it taking 10 damage... How that can be enjoyable for the fade or marine I am not exactly sure...
Regarding "everyone focussed on the delays but that wasn't enough": People focussed on them because they were the greatest and most obvious impediment. Making any other improvements to Leap and Blink beforehand would've been pointless because the delays would have nullified them. Now that they're gone, we're in a much better position to see what else, if anything, needs to be done. It's an incremental process, but we're much closer to the end of it than we used to be.
If you're struggling with balancing the jetpack currently, then please at least increase their cost to the same of the lerk. It's just silly that a normal marine regains the 10pres he paid for the jetpack before he's being killed...
Onos became nearly completely useless. Even if you don't pick carapace you have problems even running away from jetpacks.
If you're struggling with balancing the jetpack currently, then please at least increase their cost to the same of the lerk. It's just silly that a normal marine regains the 10pres he paid for the jetpack before he's being killed...
Onos became nearly completely useless. Even if you don't pick carapace you have problems even running away from jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tripling the cost isn't an effective way to balance anything.
If cost should be increased, it should be increased to 15. Small changes typically results in the best balance.
Make bilebomb clog up the jets for a couple seconds, dropping them to maybe 1/3 normal lift. Enough to maybe hover (and not plummet to the ground), but making them much more easily targeted by the aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1948523:date=Jul 2 2012, 06:52 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 2 2012, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948523"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tripling the cost isn't an effective way to balance anything.
If cost should be increased, it should be increased to 15. Small changes typically results in the best balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 30pres i suggested was no suggestion for balancing them. It was a suggestion for a dirty fix that not every marine uses jetpacks once they are available. This just breaks the game in my eyes. Once the marines get the jetpack and are not completly failing it is no fun to play as aliens and a 80% win for the marines if not higher.
In the current build it isn't even worth spending the 75res for the onos. You can't pick carapace since you are already slow as hell and will be even slower with it. You'll have problems even without the jetpacks, and with it them it's completly pointless. That a fu***** upgrade for 10pres can overpower a onos is completely broken.
Jetpack completely overpowering an onos (well, not a smart one) is the way it should be. I do agree tho that jetpacks should cost 15 pres or so.
Onos has always been badly designed. Either its too powerfull just cheeserushing the marine base or its completely useless. Not to mention utterly boring to play. Atleast earlier the stomp had more of a purpose than just disabling vanilla marines. It was usefull for stopping arc rushes and disabling phasegates and other buildings. Only problem with stomp was that it could be spammed too much. Now onos doesnt have these and theyre given to the fade, making the onos useless, and making the disables much more harder to avoid since fade can easily blink in and quickly vortex a lot of stuff. Atleast with onos you had to get that big tank in there to do some stomping.
Imo fade is the marine slaughtering backbone of kharaa, not structure/player disabler. Onos fit this role much better.
<!--quoteo(post=1948569:date=Jul 3 2012, 05:00 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 3 2012, 05:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jetpack completely overpowering an onos (well, not a smart one) is the way it should be. I do agree tho that jetpacks should cost 15 pres or so.
Onos has always been badly designed. Either its too powerfull just cheeserushing the marine base or its completely useless. Not to mention utterly boring to play. Atleast earlier the stomp had more of a purpose than just disabling vanilla marines. It was usefull for stopping arc rushes and disabling phasegates and other buildings. Only problem with stomp was that it could be spammed too much. Now onos doesnt have these and theyre given to the fade, making the onos useless, and making the disables much more harder to avoid since fade can easily blink in and quickly vortex a lot of stuff. Atleast with onos you had to get that big tank in there to do some stomping.
Imo fade is the marine slaughtering backbone of kharaa, not structure/player disabler. Onos fit this role much better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont agree that a jetpacker should be able to overpower a onos. He should clearly have the upper hand since he can fly out of the reach of the onos. But that the Onos currently isn't even able to escape from a jetpacker is just silly. And 15 res is to low compared to the power it gives the marine. Shouldn't pretty much everything in NS2 have a downside? Shotgun nice in close-mid range but sucks on long range. Grenade launcher awesome for killing structures if there is no whip but you cant defend yourself well with it. Flamethrower disables whips throwback ability nearly nullifies the energy regeneration of aliens but low damage. ARCs nearly almighty against structures, but no damage at all against players. Skulk fast but fragile. Lerk still pretty fragile since shotgun is up when lerks are available but has ranged combat and can fly. Fade is slow but powerful and has to do hit and run since shotgun can 1 shot him. Onos a lot health/armor and pretty nice damage but slow and can do nothing against jetpackers. How does the jetpack fit into this list? It simply doesn't. It cost currently 10pres and has no trade off. It improves the combat ability against each of the alien units.
What I don't understand is that why does a jetpack need to have the same amount of armour as a regular marine, shouldn't they sacrifice armour to gain mobility so that it is not a nobrainer to always get a jetpack?
<!--quoteo(post=1948574:date=Jul 3 2012, 02:38 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 3 2012, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How does the jetpack fit into this list? It simply doesn't. It cost currently 10pres and has no trade off. It improves the combat ability against each of the alien units.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tradeoff between dual miniguns+huge amount of armor for agility? If you nerf the jetpack even more than has been done already, its just going to be useless again and the marines are simply going to ignore it, and go for more upgrades instead. Just like it was before they actually made it usefull.
<!--quoteo(post=1948577:date=Jul 3 2012, 06:04 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 3 2012, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tradeoff between dual miniguns+huge amount of armor for agility? If you nerf the jetpack even more than has been done already, its just going to be useless again and the marines are simply going to ignore it, and go for more upgrades instead. Just like it was before they actually made it usefull.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The exosuit isn't out yet but as far as i know it has been posted that the exosuit will not be able to use the phasegate. I guess that the movement speed will be slower as the speed of a normal marine (like the HA in ns1) and that you wont be able to sprint, maybe not even be able to jump. Sure you will probably be able to deal a ton of damage but it will have a trade off. Other than the jetpack. The jetpack allows you to reach positions you normaly wouldn't be able to reach. You can shoot midair which makes it even harder for fades and skulks to reach you. You are also a lot faster then on the ground. The jetpack is pretty much a upgrade which makes the marine wearing it a counter part of the lerk. Therefor it should cost the same.
An onos should be able to kill a jetpacker if he manage to engage him in a small hallway at close enough distance, otherwise he shouldn't be able to most of the time.
Then it's just a matter of having a good distribution of open and small areas on the map so an onos can retreat in small areas and jetpacks in open ones.
About balancing the jetpacks, I think it's easy enough, you've got a lots of variables to play with: speed, recharge speed, momentum, energy drain, air control, cost, ...
Just tweak one or two of those by a <b>little</b> amount (5-10%), wait and see. In the past, we had several instances of balance where lots of variables were changed at the same time, making something overpower to never used again. Don't introduce new mechanics, there is plenty already.
<!--quoteo(post=1948588:date=Jul 3 2012, 03:24 PM:name=Nakorson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jul 3 2012, 03:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948588"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The exosuit isn't out yet but as far as i know it has been posted that the exosuit will not be able to use the phasegate. I guess that the movement speed will be slower as the speed of a normal marine (like the HA in ns1) and that you wont be able to sprint, maybe not even be able to jump. Sure you will probably be able to deal a ton of damage but it will have a trade off. Other than the jetpack. The jetpack allows you to reach positions you normaly wouldn't be able to reach. You can shoot midair which makes it even harder for fades and skulks to reach you. You are also a lot faster then on the ground. The jetpack is pretty much a upgrade which makes the marine wearing it a counter part of the lerk. Therefor it should cost the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making it so expensive would mean that you would be able to buy it maybe 2 times max in a normal round(assuming you dont buy any weapons/welders/mines), making it not worth the time and resources instead of going for more damage and armor. And yes, fades and skulks have problems with jetpacks because the movement for both classes is horrible.
<!--quoteo(post=1948595:date=Jul 3 2012, 06:36 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 3 2012, 06:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making it so expensive would mean that you would be able to buy it maybe 2 times max in a normal round(assuming you dont buy any weapons/welders/mines), making it not worth the time and resources instead of going for more damage and armor. And yes, fades and skulks have problems with jetpacks because the movement for both classes is horrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh wait isn't it the same for the aliens? How often can you go fade or onos? Right as soon as i die i can evolve to onos again because it cost only 10pres. Oh wait no it doesn't. Why have marines to use the jetpack all the time? Why not pick the right time to buy them and use them effectively? It's also the way they have been used in ns1. When aliens evolve to a higher lifeform and they fail and die they have lost a lot of resources. While they are in the higher lifeform they may have some advantages but they are gone when they die. Why shouldn't this be the case with the marines? Why should they be allowed to just buy a new jetpack for nearly no cost.
Focus anyone? :p I don't exactly have trouble hitting jp's with fade now - the delay removal was a <b>godsend</b> and long in waiting. The problem now is that i have to do it 4 times on a good jper lol. 8 + if he is nanoshielded and medded. With 5 jpers in a room (50 pres), it takes a looong time to do any real damage. It doesn't seem cost or time efficient using a fade to kill jp's and nanoshield in the picture just compounds the issue. Was there a reason UWE decided not to bring back focus?
<!--quoteo(post=1948763:date=Jul 3 2012, 07:59 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 3 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1948763"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Focus anyone? :p I don't exactly have trouble hitting jp's with fade now - the delay removal was a <b>godsend</b> and long in waiting. The problem now is that i have to do it 4 times on a good jper lol. 8 + if he is nanoshielded and medded. With 5 jpers in a room (50 pres), it takes a looong time to do any real damage. It doesn't seem cost or time efficient using a fade to kill jp's and nanoshield in the picture just compounds the issue. Was there a reason UWE decided not to bring back focus?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus could improve it a bit but you would still have to fight against a army of jet packs. It's like if the americans would no longer use soldiers any more in real life wars only aircrafts but they would still be fighting soldiers.
There is a considerable amount of irony in the fact that NS2 jetpacks are overpowered. The NS1 jetpacks were more like rocketpacks with far more absolute power but far less relative power. There was a whole host of ways in which the alien team could combat jetpacks; ocs were effective, leap and blink were fantastic, lerks had high dps, meta+regen allowed for constant harassment, focus empowered skulks etc. The NS2 jetpacks practically crawl in comparison which is why I'm unenthusiastic about nerfing them (at least in terms of how the jetpack actually works) until really important, and necessary, changes are made to the alien movement, with particular attention paid to the skulk-leap and fade-blink. Blinking is cool but I think the current iteration of invisibility/damage-reduction/no-momentum is, lamentably, doomed.
Another reason for OP jetpacks is derived from the philosophy that all guns are equal (or at least, comparatively useful). For 10res only, you are equipping yourself with a very powerful setup that is actually <i>designed</i> to be almost as good as a jetpack/sg which is pretty weird. It's necessary because powerful weapons in a system where everybody can buy their own guns leads to catastrophe but it has unfortunate ramifications for the utility of a 10-pres jetpack. Referring to NS1 once more, a jetpack without a weapon was considered to be poor man-management and poor strategy because aliens, with all their effective jetpack counters, would target this player and take them out of the game. In NS2, a jetpack/lmg might as well be a staple of marine play. It's incredibly cheap and it's almost never a bad idea to buy one even if you're unable to purchase a weapon.
I would rather see an expensive jetpack at ~25 pres but which is *more* effective. This vision is impossible in the current state of the game but could potentially become so with improved leap and blink (something that becomes reasonable with the return of hive-tied abilities). I think an increased cost for the jetpack, even now, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either.
Comments
They can actually, from what i have seen personally at least.
Jet pack up..and then watch it start recharging before you hit the ground.
You can test this yourself easily on your first try, i bet.
But besides this semantic, what im saying is not necessarily to only recharge on the ground..<b> but rather just to extend that time of 0.7</b>
There could be plenty of instances where you land momentarily on some ledge or wire or dropship and wala you start recharging.. too many situations to account for - just extend the time already established.
This won't interfere with what we know as the "JP feel" or it's properly used effectiveness of dodging whats on the ground - it simply makes it more <i>counterable</i> more frequently, if only until performance is fixed.
<i>Though I'm up for any other ideas too.. ?</i> :-/
This could all be fixed with just making the recharge rate slower or a cooldown on the recharge. The way the JP is currently set up, is just blatantly game breaking.
The answer?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the answer is fungal growth, which functions like web did in ns1 for this purpose (voiding any circumstantial arguments about economy/timing/skill level/...)
Use Celerity or the Shift Key to charge out. If you die, you overextended anyways. Or it was a really close fight. It happens.
"Can be killed" is not analogous to Overpowered.
Also: As mentioned above, adjusting cost adjusts frequency, and that can be tampered with after the underlying issue is fixed first.
Unless you think there is no issue with aliens interacting with jetpackers?
Also: As mentioned above, adjusting cost adjusts frequency, and that can be tampered with after the underlying issue is fixed first.
Unless you think there is no issue with aliens interacting with jetpackers?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The underlying issue is leap and blink, not the jetpack. Making the jetpack worse like it used to be just leads to no commanders researching them, because theres better places to use that res. Another big issue is level design, a lot of the hive rooms and other keyareas in maps are big rooms with high ceiling, of course a ranged flying class is at advantage there. When you get the jump on jetpackers at tight corridors its a whole different story.
No offense, but i think you are just avoiding something.. Blink isnt changing anytime soon i dont think - its just fine. Leap may or may not get adjusted, but you currently have more than enough air control while leaping to get at a jetpacker.
So forgive me if i think what i said earlier still holds true:
<!--quoteo(post=1947582:date=Jun 28 2012, 09:08 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jun 28 2012, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1947582"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's hoping once Exo goes in public builds, people will call for a little less JP recharging, as yeah, okay, its fun to be a marine when you have one but being on the receiving end is just frustrating - and thus hopefully people will call for a change in the name of balance once the novelty wears off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean, does the fact that a JPer can stay in air for so long / so frequently not seem...<b> skill less </b>to you as it does me? imo it should be a timed thing - if you fail to kill the alien beneath you while you have said air advantage you should be vulnerable for slightly longer than what is current.. but like i said, i understand people's concern over having that novelty of feeling overpowered/safe removed. So i'll just leave this one alone :)
I remember me posting - delays was part of the problem, but its <b>actually the alien movement</b> => blink, and leap that needs to be adjusted(lerk as a whole) to handle the jp problem (in the same way aliens handled it in ns1, were jetpacks had even longer air time than they ever had in ns2)
edit: im also pretty sure you could ask every competitive player (at least euro. dont have too much contact with us guys) that would have said the same (if they didnt already somewhere)...
No offense, but i think you are just avoiding something.. Blink isnt changing anytime soon i dont think - its just fine. Leap may or may not get adjusted, but you currently have more than enough air control while leaping to get at a jetpacker.
So forgive me if i think what i said earlier still holds true:
I mean, does the fact that a JPer can stay in air for so long / so frequently not seem...<b> skill less </b>to you as it does me? imo it should be a timed thing - if you fail to kill the alien beneath you while you have said air advantage you should be vulnerable for slightly longer than what is current.. but like i said, i understand people's concern over having that novelty of feeling overpowered/safe removed. So i'll just leave this one alone :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any hidden crap/delay is a problem. And of course you can just say everyone thought it was just the delays, but it isnt. The alien movement is still very, very bad. It lacks any momentum especially for the fade. How can you call blink fine? It relies on invisibility damage reduction that requires you to read the lua code to have any idea how the ###### it even works,just to keep the lifeform alive. Blink is an abomination if you ask me.
Leap now being tied to the second hive means it can be better so its more usable to fight jetpacks. Regarding blink, fades are still pretty rough to play, and honestly what was abusable before is now required. I have said before and its worth repeating, having the damage reduction blink system is extremely difficult to balance, and leads to very frustrating/gimmicky gameplay. Landing a shot 10ms too late is the difference between killing a fade or it taking 10 damage... How that can be enjoyable for the fade or marine I am not exactly sure...
If you're struggling with balancing the jetpack currently, then please at least increase their cost to the same of the lerk. It's just silly that a normal marine regains the 10pres he paid for the jetpack before he's being killed...
Onos became nearly completely useless. Even if you don't pick carapace you have problems even running away from jetpacks.
If you're struggling with balancing the jetpack currently, then please at least increase their cost to the same of the lerk. It's just silly that a normal marine regains the 10pres he paid for the jetpack before he's being killed...
Onos became nearly completely useless. Even if you don't pick carapace you have problems even running away from jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tripling the cost isn't an effective way to balance anything.
If cost should be increased, it should be increased to 15. Small changes typically results in the best balance.
If cost should be increased, it should be increased to 15. Small changes typically results in the best balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoting this because it sounds like something I would say.
If cost should be increased, it should be increased to 15. Small changes typically results in the best balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 30pres i suggested was no suggestion for balancing them. It was a suggestion for a dirty fix that not every marine uses jetpacks once they are available. This just breaks the game in my eyes. Once the marines get the jetpack and are not completly failing it is no fun to play as aliens and a 80% win for the marines if not higher.
In the current build it isn't even worth spending the 75res for the onos. You can't pick carapace since you are already slow as hell and will be even slower with it. You'll have problems even without the jetpacks, and with it them it's completly pointless. That a fu***** upgrade for 10pres can overpower a onos is completely broken.
Onos has always been badly designed. Either its too powerfull just cheeserushing the marine base or its completely useless. Not to mention utterly boring to play. Atleast earlier the stomp had more of a purpose than just disabling vanilla marines. It was usefull for stopping arc rushes and disabling phasegates and other buildings. Only problem with stomp was that it could be spammed too much. Now onos doesnt have these and theyre given to the fade, making the onos useless, and making the disables much more harder to avoid since fade can easily blink in and quickly vortex a lot of stuff. Atleast with onos you had to get that big tank in there to do some stomping.
Imo fade is the marine slaughtering backbone of kharaa, not structure/player disabler. Onos fit this role much better.
Onos has always been badly designed. Either its too powerfull just cheeserushing the marine base or its completely useless. Not to mention utterly boring to play. Atleast earlier the stomp had more of a purpose than just disabling vanilla marines. It was usefull for stopping arc rushes and disabling phasegates and other buildings. Only problem with stomp was that it could be spammed too much. Now onos doesnt have these and theyre given to the fade, making the onos useless, and making the disables much more harder to avoid since fade can easily blink in and quickly vortex a lot of stuff. Atleast with onos you had to get that big tank in there to do some stomping.
Imo fade is the marine slaughtering backbone of kharaa, not structure/player disabler. Onos fit this role much better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont agree that a jetpacker should be able to overpower a onos. He should clearly have the upper hand since he can fly out of the reach of the onos. But that the Onos currently isn't even able to escape from a jetpacker is just silly. And 15 res is to low compared to the power it gives the marine. Shouldn't pretty much everything in NS2 have a downside?
Shotgun nice in close-mid range but sucks on long range. Grenade launcher awesome for killing structures if there is no whip but you cant defend yourself well with it. Flamethrower disables whips throwback ability nearly nullifies the energy regeneration of aliens but low damage. ARCs nearly almighty against structures, but no damage at all against players. Skulk fast but fragile. Lerk still pretty fragile since shotgun is up when lerks are available but has ranged combat and can fly. Fade is slow but powerful and has to do hit and run since shotgun can 1 shot him. Onos a lot health/armor and pretty nice damage but slow and can do nothing against jetpackers.
How does the jetpack fit into this list? It simply doesn't. It cost currently 10pres and has no trade off. It improves the combat ability against each of the alien units.
Tradeoff between dual miniguns+huge amount of armor for agility? If you nerf the jetpack even more than has been done already, its just going to be useless again and the marines are simply going to ignore it, and go for more upgrades instead. Just like it was before they actually made it usefull.
The exosuit isn't out yet but as far as i know it has been posted that the exosuit will not be able to use the phasegate. I guess that the movement speed will be slower as the speed of a normal marine (like the HA in ns1) and that you wont be able to sprint, maybe not even be able to jump. Sure you will probably be able to deal a ton of damage but it will have a trade off. Other than the jetpack.
The jetpack allows you to reach positions you normaly wouldn't be able to reach. You can shoot midair which makes it even harder for fades and skulks to reach you. You are also a lot faster then on the ground.
The jetpack is pretty much a upgrade which makes the marine wearing it a counter part of the lerk. Therefor it should cost the same.
Then it's just a matter of having a good distribution of open and small areas on the map so an onos can retreat in small areas and jetpacks in open ones.
About balancing the jetpacks, I think it's easy enough, you've got a lots of variables to play with: speed, recharge speed, momentum, energy drain, air control, cost, ...
Just tweak one or two of those by a <b>little</b> amount (5-10%), wait and see. In the past, we had several instances of balance where lots of variables were changed at the same time, making something overpower to never used again. Don't introduce new mechanics, there is plenty already.
The jetpack allows you to reach positions you normaly wouldn't be able to reach. You can shoot midair which makes it even harder for fades and skulks to reach you. You are also a lot faster then on the ground.
The jetpack is pretty much a upgrade which makes the marine wearing it a counter part of the lerk. Therefor it should cost the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making it so expensive would mean that you would be able to buy it maybe 2 times max in a normal round(assuming you dont buy any weapons/welders/mines), making it not worth the time and resources instead of going for more damage and armor. And yes, fades and skulks have problems with jetpacks because the movement for both classes is horrible.
Oh wait isn't it the same for the aliens? How often can you go fade or onos? Right as soon as i die i can evolve to onos again because it cost only 10pres. Oh wait no it doesn't. Why have marines to use the jetpack all the time? Why not pick the right time to buy them and use them effectively? It's also the way they have been used in ns1. When aliens evolve to a higher lifeform and they fail and die they have lost a lot of resources. While they are in the higher lifeform they may have some advantages but they are gone when they die. Why shouldn't this be the case with the marines? Why should they be allowed to just buy a new jetpack for nearly no cost.
I don't exactly have trouble hitting jp's with fade now - the delay removal was a <b>godsend</b> and long in waiting. The problem now is that i have to do it 4 times on a good jper lol. 8 + if he is nanoshielded and medded. With 5 jpers in a room (50 pres), it takes a looong time to do any real damage.
It doesn't seem cost or time efficient using a fade to kill jp's and nanoshield in the picture just compounds the issue. Was there a reason UWE decided not to bring back focus?
I don't exactly have trouble hitting jp's with fade now - the delay removal was a <b>godsend</b> and long in waiting. The problem now is that i have to do it 4 times on a good jper lol. 8 + if he is nanoshielded and medded. With 5 jpers in a room (50 pres), it takes a looong time to do any real damage.
It doesn't seem cost or time efficient using a fade to kill jp's and nanoshield in the picture just compounds the issue. Was there a reason UWE decided not to bring back focus?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Focus could improve it a bit but you would still have to fight against a army of jet packs. It's like if the americans would no longer use soldiers any more in real life wars only aircrafts but they would still be fighting soldiers.
Another reason for OP jetpacks is derived from the philosophy that all guns are equal (or at least, comparatively useful). For 10res only, you are equipping yourself with a very powerful setup that is actually <i>designed</i> to be almost as good as a jetpack/sg which is pretty weird. It's necessary because powerful weapons in a system where everybody can buy their own guns leads to catastrophe but it has unfortunate ramifications for the utility of a 10-pres jetpack. Referring to NS1 once more, a jetpack without a weapon was considered to be poor man-management and poor strategy because aliens, with all their effective jetpack counters, would target this player and take them out of the game. In NS2, a jetpack/lmg might as well be a staple of marine play. It's incredibly cheap and it's almost never a bad idea to buy one even if you're unable to purchase a weapon.
I would rather see an expensive jetpack at ~25 pres but which is *more* effective. This vision is impossible in the current state of the game but could potentially become so with improved leap and blink (something that becomes reasonable with the return of hive-tied abilities). I think an increased cost for the jetpack, even now, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either.