Alien sight (flashlight) too good - game visuals cannot be enjoyed :)

LichoLicho Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3858Members, NS1 Playtester
Alien sight appears to be very good and very useful for aliens to quickly orient in the environment.

I asked couple of players and it appears most people play with it almost always enabled.

I think its a shame that this mode "hides" all the visual prettiness of the game.

Perhaps alien vision could only highlight marines/structures - something more similar to HL NS.
«1

Comments

  • Wyattx3Wyattx3 Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members
    While I agree wholeheartedly that the current alien sight needs to be adjusted, I really do like certain parts of it.

    If I were to do anything, I would tone down the brightness, and make the effect on textures and props slightly transparent. Then, I would add a border type effect around the edges, something like the veins of an eyeball mixed with that infestation tentacle art to make it look like the alien is straining their eyes to produce the effect.

    Most importantly I'd address the brightness....
  • KrizzenKrizzen Join Date: 2011-12-16 Member: 138181Members
    edited February 2012
    I totally agree it's overboard. All the amazing texture work just disappears. There's a mod that reduces the texture vanishing effect of the current shader. I'd really like to see the official release go more in the direction of this mod.

    Here's a link to twiliteblue's mod:
    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...114172&st=0</a>

    And here's an interesting snippet from that thread by Charlie:

    "Cool adjustments. Considering this."

    So there ya go. It seems they atleast recognize the shader is intense and will probably revamp it before release.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    I like that aliens view has its downsides and think they should expand on that rather, so people have a reason to turn it off. Disable hive sight while using aliens sight and things like that.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
    I don't like alien sight as a mechanic because it cheapens powered-down rooms and makes them strictly alien-favoured.
    What's to say that I shouldn't be able to make things tough for a skulk in the dark by keeping my flashlight off, and forcing him to fight me on the 'low light' terms? If I try that, he just has to push F and get a huge advantage over me.

    I know it's a predator homage, and it helps them work under spores and all that, but it seems like it simplifies things way too much.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2012
    Also this thread.
    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=115930</a>

    The question you have to ask yourself is <b>why</b> do you want players to turn off their alien vision?
    - Because it looks like Tron? That's simply a problem of visuals, and easily fixed.[1]
    - Because it confers too much of an advantage? That's more of a problem with having darkness as a (binary) game mechanic.[2]

    [1] "game visuals cannot be enjoyed" is not a good reason to gimp alien vision in any way. It is, however, a good reason to improve the visuals of alien vision. See twiliteblue's mod for a good first pass. I've written about this:
    <!--quoteo(post=1896686:date=Jan 23 2012, 02:56 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 23 2012, 02:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are two main features of alien vision that make it so useful:
    - It highlights edges: adding sharp contrast between edges and surfaces.
    - It differentiates entities from geometry by colour/shade, and homogenises the textures of entities (creating almost a silhouette): adding sharp contrast between entities and geometry, and making entities visually striking. * In twiliteblue's mod, this is somewhat more subtle because of transparency, but none of the contrast is really lost.
    Any implementation that kept these two features would retain AV's utility, no matter how subtle the actual visual effects are.
    A natural consequence of twiliteblue's mod is that the effect is more noticeable (and therefore more useful) in darker areas and less noticeable in lighter areas - this is, I would say, working as intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Another helpful feature would be to enhance depth perception.

    [2] "cheapens powered-down rooms and makes them strictly alien-favoured", however, <b>is</b> a good reason to revisit alien vision as a gameplay mechanic. I've written about this before:
    <!--quoteo(post=1898747:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 2 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I see the real problem with darkness (and other mechanics in Natural Selection, such as cloaking): it's that it's a binary game mechanic. There are two states: light (everyone can see) or dark (marines cannot see). In the first case, this is a level playing field (sort of, not really considering melee vs range here), that's why the game is (relatively) fun. The second case is almost certainly an unbalanced playing field. You could say that the second case helps to balance the melee vs range issue, but the fact remains that it is binary: so either aliens have the advantage, or marines have the advantage. A better approach (on paper) would be to have a unary game mechanic (everyone always plays on the same field), or a ternary game mechanic (each side can gain an advantage): in the latter approach, the perfectly level playing field is the primary playing field (and accounts for the vast majority of the playtime), while the secondary playing fields only grant a team a small, temporary and reversible advantage (to tip the scales). The question is, how would you actually approach such a system in practice (edit: while preserving the asymmetry of the teams)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Regardless, I don't think any implementation of alien vision should have any artificial disadvantages, and I've discussed this thoroughly in the thread I linked above.
    On a related side-note, the atmospherics for third-person marine flashlight should be disabled or heavily toned down.

    Having these disadvantages does not lead to meaningful choices: you are either severely gimped (cannot see anything, i.e. darkness), or partially gimped (i.e. flashlight blinding teammates, alerting aliens; darkvision causing you to be unable to see particle effects and looking like Tron)
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    Alien sight is not "too good". The standard visuals are too busy for aliens to track targets effectively(skulks with their bite cam, fades blinking around, etc) and the sight is a necessary fix, though I agree its implementation is flawed. NS1 alien sight provided perpetual easy identification of marines with no downside, and it wasn't even as important then as that game's visuals were much simpler. It doesn't make sense that alien sight got nerfed in NS2(by making it harder to read your surroundings) while simultaneously the action became much more difficult to parse without it.

    IMO the current effect needs to be scrapped and replaced with something subtler that enhances visibility of marines without changing the scenery much if at all. Aliens don't need full night-vision because rooms aren't pitch black for that long anyway - all they need is marines to be highlighted. Just put a nice looking glow effect on marines, maybe reduce the visibility of spores/flames, and call it a day. Personally I wouldn't mind if we ditched the flashlight button and just made this permanent, but if you want a drawback you can come up with something else like disabling hive sight while it's active. Whatever the case, something has to be done to save aliens from playing in a world of green and orange all the time: it's visually tiring and makes it difficult to parse important information like hit indicators and incoming damage.
  • TravCarpTravCarp Join Date: 2010-06-04 Member: 71962Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    <!--quoteo(post=1902006:date=Feb 11 2012, 12:11 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Feb 11 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien sight is not "too good". The <u><b>standard visuals are too busy</b></u> for aliens to track targets effectively(skulks with their bite cam, fades blinking around, etc)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Agreed 100%, this is why I roam with alien vision most the time unless I'm a Gorge.
  • louis cardinallouis cardinal Join Date: 2010-12-14 Member: 75664Members
    can it be like ns1 where it highlighted organic matter? (maybe exclude infestation or else entire screen may be lit)

    Kinda like wyattx3's idea.
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I would love to see Alien Vision work as is but when marines stand still you cant see them. When they start to move you get the predator ghosting till they are solid and vice versa when stopping.

    Skulks are like a TRex didnt you know? DONT MOVE!
  • DeityDeity Join Date: 2012-01-31 Member: 142843Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Leaving hivesight always on is not optimal. If you leave it on you miss out on things like shadows and flashlight beams that give away marine positions. You also cannot see lerk gas or infestation.

    You should be constantly switching between hivesight and normal vision as an alien.
  • RaikoificationRaikoification Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127076Members
    Alien sight? Pfsh never bothered to use it >_>
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    It should be a tool that is situational, forcing the player to choose between the pros and the cons, instead of just turning it on forever.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Should be off in powered/lit rooms and activate with 10% opacity in vents and rooms with destroyed power nodes.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    yes to nureinmensch's comment and to that mod
    no to ieptbarakat ^
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Aside from that being what it is currently, it's just that currently the benefits completely nullify the negatives.
  • AnticeptAnticept Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58875Members, Constellation
    edited February 2012
    I have one simple solution to the alien vision:
    <b>Alien vision uses stamina.</b> Problem of overuse solved!

    Also I endorse this:


    <!--quoteo(post=1901953:date=Feb 10 2012, 06:59 PM:name=Krizzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Krizzen @ Feb 10 2012, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1901953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=114172&st=0" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...114172&st=0</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Finally, how about a *very* faint noise emanating from, and around the alien (it is echolocation, right?). Make sure it's not easy to track the exact position of the alien as there are audiophiles among us that can locate easily by sound. This would balance with the factor of marine flashlights giving them away.
  • flyjumflyjum Join Date: 2012-01-07 Member: 139849Members
    How about an extremely easy fix

    Set a time limit or something
    Maybe it fades away say over 30 secs and can only be used once per min or so
    maybe it the aliens make a sound when enabled so marines can hear where they were at
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    personally i think the sound effects from the current shade cloaking mechanism should be applied to alien vision instead of cloak.

    i mean, active sonar would translate roughly to auditory stimulus right?
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    Hmm, perhaps Alien Vision should provide improved vision (already does) but muffles sounds slightly since it's based on sonar?
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    I also really like the idea behind twiliteblue's mod.

    I would like to see alien vision permanently augmented to something even more toned-down (no flashlight... just a always on, but much more subtle effect).
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2012
    I'm really not liking the discussion about giving alien vision disadvantages, here.
    <!--quoteo(post=1902001:date=Feb 11 2012, 11:48 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 11 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902001"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF4444--><span style="color:#FF4444"><!--/coloro-->The question you have to ask yourself is <b>why</b> do you want players to turn off their alien vision?<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    - Because it looks like Tron? That's simply a problem of visuals, and easily fixed.[1]
    - Because it confers too much of an advantage? That's more of a problem with having darkness as a (binary) game mechanic.[2]

    [1] "game visuals cannot be enjoyed" is not a good reason to gimp alien vision in any way. It is, however, a good reason to improve the visuals of alien vision. See twiliteblue's mod for a good first pass.

    [2] "cheapens powered-down rooms and makes them strictly alien-favoured", however, <b>is</b> a good reason to revisit alien vision <i>(rather, darkness)</i> as a <i>(binary)</i> gameplay mechanic.

    <!--coloro:#4444FF--><span style="color:#4444FF"><!--/coloro-->Regardless, I don't think any implementation of alien vision should have any artificial disadvantages<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, and I've discussed this thoroughly in the thread I linked above.
    On a related side-note, the atmospherics for third-person marine flashlight should be disabled or heavily toned down.

    <!--coloro:#44FF44--><span style="color:#44FF44"><!--/coloro-->Having these disadvantages does not lead to meaningful choices<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->: you are either severely gimped (cannot see anything, i.e. darkness), or partially gimped (i.e. flashlight blinding teammates, alerting aliens; darkvision causing you to be unable to see particle <i>and lighting</i> effects and looking like Tron)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Also read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896333" target="_blank">this</a> (why giving alien vision a disadvantage is a bad idea) and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896686" target="_blank">this</a> (how to improve the visuals of alien vision).


    <!--quoteo(post=1902562:date=Feb 13 2012, 04:48 PM:name=Rokiyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rokiyo @ Feb 13 2012, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see alien vision permanently augmented to something even more toned-down (no flashlight... just a always on, but much more subtle effect).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    +1
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    Short:
    Aliens want to destroy power nodes (light goes off)
    Marines want to repair power nodes (light goes on)

    Why the hell should we cripple aliens in the dark, by adding a disadvantage to their night vision? Besides that would completely take away the intentional added advantage for the aliens, this hasn't to be symmetrical! Aliens focus on melee, darkness is good for melee combat and bad for long range combat. So can't you see it? Its there on purpose. You don't even need to call it a "binary game mechanic" (it isn't) It is an advantage. A one-hit-kill is binary. But I have killed more than one alien in a completely dark room. So it is ONE aspect of advantages and disadvantages. It's analog and the same cause, why it doesn't make sense to say that the lvl1 Damage upgrade is a binary game mechanic, because it favors only the marines. There is alway many facts, many advantages and disadvantages to a situation. Just because you can point of 2 states (having a shotgun, having none) does not make it a binary game mechanic.

    But back to topic. We don't need a disadvantage trying to force players in a direction. We need to get to the root of the problem. And that simply is:
    10% opacity on textures and effects (so you can see beautiful graphic, flashlights and look through spore clouds). If this gives the aliens an advantage in dark areas, so what? Are you really arguing that a marine should rambo in a dark room and have a fair chance against an alien? WTF? There are 10 seconds without light and you really think that shouldn't give the aliens an advantage?
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    sorry for not reading any of the previous threads (i basically agree with the initial post) but there is something i'd like to point out: even though effects such as lerk-gas are invisible during the alien vision, it seems they are still being calculated draining quite a lot of fps. i guess it'd be much more efficient to only render them when actually visible.
  • DeKayDeKay Join Date: 2009-06-08 Member: 67752Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1902464:date=Feb 12 2012, 11:28 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Feb 12 2012, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should be a tool that is situational, forcing the player to choose between the pros and the cons, instead of just turning it on forever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree to that!
    If you do anything else, ppl will just turn it on and see only what is visible in alien vision the whole game.
  • mushookeesmushookees Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Members
    When lights are off and when emergency lighting is on, aliens should be using alienvision and should have an advantage over marines. However when lights are on, that advantage needs to disappear, in otherwords aliens wont use alienvsion if lights are on.

    So you have to ask yourself why is alienvision being used when lights are on ?
    There are 2 reasons, 1 is that alienvision makes it very easy to keep track of marines when you are attacking them, the 2nd reason is that without alienvision its really easy to lose sight of the marine your attacking. With the bite animation and being in close proximity to the marine, and with you strafing/jumping/changing direction and constant movement in order to make it hard for them to shoot you, you end up getting dis-orientated and lose track of the target which can be deadly for a skulk.

    I think all this can be solved if we make Alienvision useless in lights on rooms and make lights on rooms alot brighter, this would help both marines and aliens

    To compensate for the brighter rooms, make the red emergency lighting darker or change it to some type of spot lighting. This would give aliens more of an advantage in the dark and it would force marines to use flashlights more often. This would also increase the importance of killing powernodes for aliens.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    while i agree completely with you mushookees, a lot of people don't like importance being given to light and dark in fear it will make it a game mechanic and not just a visual indicator.

    Which i'll be honest, when i first pre ordered the spec edition from all the posts and screens regarding dynamic lighting and flashlights and power grids etc i seriously thought it would be a major feature, now people and the devs themselves dont want dark gameplay because players can't see the nice artwork. (which is very pretty, and i disagree with considering the flashlight and what alien vision can be modded to accomplish) and because of reasons x and y etc.
    i plan on making a simple mod post 1.0 that will be a darkness mod. no red emergency lighting, just pitch black. marines in very light rooms, where aliens have distinct disadvantages and gameplay revolves around this light and dark play. (yes i know some will attempt gamma hacks, its just the nature of the beast)
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1902599:date=Feb 13 2012, 12:37 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 13 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really not liking the discussion about giving alien vision disadvantages, here.

    Also read <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896333" target="_blank">this</a> (why giving alien vision a disadvantage is a bad idea) and <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896686" target="_blank">this</a> (how to improve the visuals of alien vision).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Well, I suppose it should be always on instead then? Or at least default to on.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2012
    @Align: Yes.

    @mushookees: That's all well and good, but then you need to consider that aliens are melee while marines are ranged, meaning that they already have an inherent disadvantage, which I discussed in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115930&view=findpost&p=1896333" target="_blank">this post</a> already.

    @_Necro_: A binary mechanic, in this case, refers to the fact that there are two states: marine advantage, alien advantage. Neither of these is a level playing field, which is why it makes it a fairly poor competitive multiplayer mechanic. You want a unary mechanic (neither side ever has an advantage, always an equal playing field), or a ternary mechanic (the game is usually played on an equal playing field, but each side can gain a small, temporary advantage).
    I think I pasted this on the first page already, but whatever, it can't hurt:
    <!--quoteo(post=1898747:date=Feb 2 2012, 10:54 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 2 2012, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1898747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I see the real problem with darkness (and other mechanics in Natural Selection, such as cloaking): it's that it's a binary game mechanic. There are two states: light (everyone can see) or dark (marines cannot see). In the first case, this is a level playing field (sort of, not really considering melee vs range here), that's why the game is (relatively) fun. The second case is almost certainly an unbalanced playing field. You could say that the second case helps to balance the melee vs range issue, but the fact remains that it is binary: so either aliens have the advantage, or marines have the advantage. A better approach (on paper) would be to have a unary game mechanic (everyone always plays on the same field), or a ternary game mechanic (each side can gain an advantage): in the latter approach, the perfectly level playing field is the primary playing field (and accounts for the vast majority of the playtime), while the secondary playing fields only grant a team a small, temporary and reversible advantage (to tip the scales). The question is, how would you actually approach such a system in practice (edit: while preserving the asymmetry of the teams)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • FragmagnetFragmagnet Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72873Members
    **Resists urge to put image of custom marine flashlight here due to the fact that it is irrelevent**

    of the like......15 minutes I have as aliens I have to agree.
    make the textures DETAILS still there.. but just make everything orange and yellow.
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    edited February 2012
    I think I like the idea for automatic turn-on/off according to your location and power status of the room. Unsocketed + Powered rooms = off, Vents + Unpowered rooms = on, simply put.
Sign In or Register to comment.