Why can't we see our legs/chest again?

TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
<div class="IPBDescription">These new Onos gore animations have me thinking</div>I've either never heard, or don't remember, a concrete reason why the ability to see your own body in your 1st person view is a bad design choice. It seems like something that would be useful both thematically and mechanically when skulks are running around your legs. Plus, it'd be a nice tool for instantly differentiating NS2's marine gameplay from other FPSs.

Comments

  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    It doesn't fit well with fast paced gameplay, as you'd be irritated by shooting at your own feet when there's something beneath you. There are lots of problems that need to be solved animation-wise. Your weapon viewmodel would have to adapt to your aiming (which is kinda weird when you're aiming straight down) and you'd look into your own body <u>unless</u> you make the view tilt on some kind of curve, simulating your head being in front of your body when you're facing down, but disorienting players in fast combat and making aiming a bit harder.
    I like seeing my body in role playing games and to some extent in realistic/atmospheric shooters, but not at all in fast-paced multiplayer experiences.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    When in NS2 is there every something directly underneath you? Every time I shoot down, it's aiming at things that are dodging around legs they can see, but I can't.
  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Ever used a jetpack? :) (or jumped on top of an alien?)
    An illustration of one of the issues: (yes, I'm definitely not an artist)
    <img src="https://pickhost.eu/images/0005/0177/Visible_Body_in_FPS.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    Giving even more freedom to aim at > 90 degrees down/up would feel incredibly strange, especially when turning, so you're mostly stuck with this issue. Most games even restrict aiming down/upwards to 160 or even 120 degrees in total, which would definitely hinder gameplay, but is unimportant in those games, as you pretty much never have to aim downwards and even if you do, you don't have to react as quick.
    And then there's still the issue of where to place the weapon view model at high angles. It would either feel out of place or obstruct the view or both.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    Not such a biggie for the other classes, but I think being able to see the Oni's feet from the first person camera could be worthwhile for judging distance from target.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    @Dghelneshi: There's still space between your legs. <!--coloro:gray--><span style="color:gray"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->lol<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    The 3rd person model can be kept the same as it is now. Marines shoot from their eyes anyway, didn't you know?
  • DghelneshiDghelneshi Aims to surpass Fana in post edits. Join Date: 2011-11-01 Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1902597:date=Feb 13 2012, 12:32 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 13 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Dghelneshi: There's still space between your legs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, but you won't be able to aim for it, because you have to move the eyes on the x/z axis instead of just rotating the camera when you implement a body being seen in first person. Otherwise you would have to look right through your body to aim down. You _could_ make the camera able to tilt more than 90 degrees downwards, but that would result in very confusing turning behaviour.

    And there's still the issue of the weapon model, especially because the ammo display is on it.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited February 2012
    i get what your saying Dghelneshi, but the only argument anyone needs is:

    <i><b>many other modern games do this, even fast paced FPS games.</b></i> (Crysis 1 and 2, bf3, all the fear games etc)
  • saltybp53saltybp53 Join Date: 2010-07-22 Member: 72675Members
    If you ever played a realistic game, it generally depends on the size of it. Most realistic games take this into consideration, and you would be surprised on how amazingly easy to shoot things directly underneath you. Yeah, it does block your screen a bit, but skulls are KINDA big. But it takes alot of work doesn't it? Unless the devs decide to just use the thirdperson animations.
  • azimaithazimaith Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107686Members
    edited February 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1902530:date=Feb 12 2012, 08:16 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Feb 12 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't fit well with fast paced gameplay, as you'd be irritated by shooting at your own feet when there's something beneath you. There are lots of problems that need to be solved animation-wise. Your weapon viewmodel would have to adapt to your aiming (which is kinda weird when you're aiming straight down) and you'd look into your own body <u>unless</u> you make the view tilt on some kind of curve, simulating your head being in front of your body when you're facing down, but disorienting players in fast combat and making aiming a bit harder.
    I like seeing my body in role playing games and to some extent in realistic/atmospheric shooters, but not at all in fast-paced multiplayer experiences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    [sarcasm]We wouldn't want to prevent someone from shooting bullets through their body of course.[/sarcasm] I think people need to accept that you aren't playing a flying gun, but a simulating it being carried, thus restrictions on where you can aim aren't really a problem. You get a set of limitations you have to deal with. Skulks are large enough they couldn't hide inside your legs to prevent you from shooting them.

    Adding legs would massively increase your ability to determine attachment to surfaces with skulks without gravity indicators and other clunkier means. If this game had organisms that were longer it would also help with determining the area you take up in the environment but that's not too much of an issue here.

    The obvious downside is its just more work for the team to do.
  • ÒŗăNģёÒŗăNģё Join Date: 2012-02-09 Member: 144437Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    This isn't virtual reality LOL.. we dont need more crap all over the screen to block even more angles. There is already and excessive amount of things in the way, not to mention the apparent increase in gun model size.....
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1902815:date=Feb 14 2012, 03:55 AM:name=ÒŗăNģё)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ÒŗăNģё @ Feb 14 2012, 03:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This isn't virtual reality LOL.. we dont need more crap all over the screen to block even more angles. There is already and excessive amount of things in the way, not to mention the apparent increase in gun model size.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Do you have a 4:3 monitor?
    The FoV(Field of View) changed in the latest patch, so widescreen users got a little more view space, and no-widescreen users got 25% less view.
    That might be why you think the gun model size increase.
    Anyway, it's already fixed for the next patch.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1902664:date=Feb 14 2012, 12:16 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Feb 14 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1902664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but you won't be able to aim for it, because you have to move the eyes on the x/z axis instead of just rotating the camera when you implement a body being seen in first person. Otherwise you would have to look right through your body to aim down. You _could_ make the camera able to tilt more than 90 degrees downwards, but that would result in very confusing turning behaviour.

    And there's still the issue of the weapon model, especially because the ammo display is on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't really understand what you're saying. What would need to change from the current method, except adding legs? The top of the legs would just be behind the camera position, so when you look down you see the length of your legs, like, you know, when you look down in real life.

    Here, I made an image in MSPaint.
    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/vkwJy.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • BearTaxiBearTaxi Join Date: 2011-11-15 Member: 133064Members
    edited February 2012
    This just seems like a whole lot of work to implement a feature that will have an extremely miniscule effect on overall gameplay. How about let the Devs work on the plethora of more important issues and features at LEAST up until release? Seriously, would you rather be able to see your chest and legs etc than be able to play a feature-rich, balanced game?
  • FragmagnetFragmagnet Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72873Members
    edited February 2012
    Go into your Player_Client.lua

    find

    function Player:UpdateClientEffects(deltaTime, isLocal)

    Replace the entire thing with


    <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->function Player:UpdateClientEffects(deltaTime, isLocal)

        // Only show local player model and active weapon for local player when third person
        // or for other players (not ethereal Fades)
        local drawWorld = not isLocal or self:GetIsThirdPerson() or (self.countingDown and self:GetTeamNumber() ~= kNeutralTeamType)
        local drawPlayer = drawWorld and (not self.GetIsEthereal or not self:GetIsEthereal())
        //self:SetIsVisible(drawPlayer)
        
        local activeWeapon = self:GetActiveWeapon()
        if activeWeapon then
            //activeWeapon:SetIsVisible(drawWorld)
        end

        // Hide view model when in third person.
        local viewModel = self:GetViewModelEntity()    
        if viewModel then
            viewModel:SetIsVisible( viewModel:GetIsVisible() and not drawWorld)
        end
        
        if isLocal then
        
            self:UpdateScreenEffects(deltaTime)
            self:UpdateIdleSound()
            
        end
        
        // Rumbling effects due to Onos
        self:UpdateShakingLights(deltaTime)
        self:UpdateDirtFalling(deltaTime)
        //self:UpdateOnosRumble(deltaTime)

    end<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->

    Then there's probably the camera position somewhere in that file as well.
    Just move the camera forwards a bit. because the origin is right behind/in your character's head.

    and wabam feature made
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    Pics or it didn't happen.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    *JAW DROPPED*
    how the hell do i +1 you again??
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2012
    Just to be clear, do marines shoot from their eyes (in which case, moving the camera a little forwards is perfectly fine) or their model's head (you'd need to move the model back)? Because when looking down, if you are shooting from your eyes/camera, then you will shoot where expected (a little in front of your legs); but if you are shooting from some origin, then you would shoot between your legs even though your crosshair is a little in front of your legs.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    Fragmagnet swooping in to once again make us wonder why oh why there is no +rep feature on the NS2 forums.

    And to BearTaxi: I consider being able to see what the skulks at my feet are dodging around to be a combat feature in addition to an aesthetic one; it's just mystifying what the little buggers are doing down there right now.
  • FragmagnetFragmagnet Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72873Members
    I'm not sure which the marines shoot from.

    Moving the camera forwards might be detected as a cheat.
    So moving the model back might be possible.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1903151:date=Feb 14 2012, 03:29 PM:name=Fragmagnet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fragmagnet @ Feb 14 2012, 03:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure which the marines shoot from.

    Moving the camera forwards might be detected as a cheat.
    So moving the model back might be possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The Marine camera actually sits inside the skull. You can see it by turning cheats on, and use the command "thirdperson 0.01".

    Moving the camera forward will affect your aim accuracy. Your client might think you're aiming at the target, but the server will see you camera at the default position.

    How's the camera handled in other FPS games such as Left 4 Dead and Crysis 2, I wonder?
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited February 2012
    Shrug. Either way though, the feature should be simple:
    - Enable view of 3rd person model. (I'm guessing this is what Fragmagnet did*)
    - Move camera forward in both client and server.
    * Also removed view of 1st person model? Is that wise? Well it's a hack either way, proof of concept at best.
  • FragmagnetFragmagnet Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72873Members
    the code I posted shouldn't remove your viewmodel if you're in firstperson that's only if you type thirdperson into the console
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