Stalemates (yes another thread)
Tim
Join Date: 2011-07-24 Member: 111958Members
Join Date: 2011-07-24 Member: 111958Members
Hi,
Firstly, I would like to say 189 is a great patch - it's making things very interesting having varied start locations. I can give my desktop a break and play on the laptop occasionally again (lower specced 25+fps).
I'd like to get some people’s views and feedback, as well as hopefully developer’s thoughts on stalemates and potential fixes.
The stats so far have balanced out a lot more - game play feels much more intense and the reliance on the power nodes has definitely increased.
<a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=189" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...ats?version=189</a>
<u>My view on stale mate causes and potential fixes:</u>
Instead of attacking the sentries and MACs as the cause I thought i'd look at <i>why</i> the Marines require them and how this ultimately shapes the gameplay.
My concern is about the amount of map control at varying stages of the game. The early game tends to focus most of the map control on the alien side. The marines feel like the intruders in an alien environment rather than the other way around.
I think the main issue for the lack of early marine map control is the way that marines and aliens build structures and how they differ. There have been a couple of fundamental changes which I think have added to this problem.
For the marines to build a structure – the team has to take x players out of combat. The team instantly has fewer resources (marines) for further exploration or advancement. The aliens on the other hand have autonomous structure building, managed by a single person (the commander). It is much cheaper for the aliens to build a structure in terms of players available for combat.
Essentially for basic construction, the marines need at minimum 3 people – the commander, one base builder and one resource tower builder. The base builder and resource tower builder role is shared at all times but will consistently use at least 1 – 2 marine player resources to have these roles. The aliens do not have this disadvantage which is why they have far greater map control and can easily harass marines earlier in game.
This effectively means in a player balanced game (6v6) the stats for combat available players end up to about 3/4 marines vs 5 aliens which will end up in marines losing ground and being forced into a base turtle. This also frees up skulks to suicide rush the marine base which will trigger sentry building to free up marine player resources for territory expansion.
The stats may have increased to appear to be more balanced, but in game there is a very different feel. Most marine victories are won with sentries and MACs – slowly pushing the aliens. Sentries and MACs are how the marines keep players in aggressive combat - freeing up the build roles and base defence.
The marines have much more motivation to build up extensive defences due to the high cost that comes with losing territory and having to reclaim it. The aliens do not experience this issue as their structures are self building and need far less player resourcing. This leads to turtles and an ‘un-fun’ experience on the alien side.
Ultimately I feel that the structure building adds and somewhat causes the issue of turtles and stalemates.
I don’t think there is a quick and simple fix. Although I’d like to either see the marine structures autonomously build (sped up by marines like the gorge) or have MACs available early game to balance out combat players.
If both sides need to feel more similar than ns1 – autonomous building may be the way to go.
I think that there needs to be some fundamental work done on the marine building side - without it the cost of losing territory will always be expensive for the marines. This will encourage turtles and stalemates.
The Onos won’t solve this issue as we will end up in a fairly static gameplay framework (Marines Build base, attempt to expand. Lose territory. Build turtle. Aliens get Onos <i>the super weapon</i> and win).
Anyhow, that's my view on the cause of turtles and essentially why the Onos isn't the cure. Yes the aliens could do with some nicer seige weapons - but why include them right away when a chance of a drawn out seige could be reduced?
Please try to keep this discussion fairly positive.
Firstly, I would like to say 189 is a great patch - it's making things very interesting having varied start locations. I can give my desktop a break and play on the laptop occasionally again (lower specced 25+fps).
I'd like to get some people’s views and feedback, as well as hopefully developer’s thoughts on stalemates and potential fixes.
The stats so far have balanced out a lot more - game play feels much more intense and the reliance on the power nodes has definitely increased.
<a href="http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats?version=189" target="_blank">http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/disp...ats?version=189</a>
<u>My view on stale mate causes and potential fixes:</u>
Instead of attacking the sentries and MACs as the cause I thought i'd look at <i>why</i> the Marines require them and how this ultimately shapes the gameplay.
My concern is about the amount of map control at varying stages of the game. The early game tends to focus most of the map control on the alien side. The marines feel like the intruders in an alien environment rather than the other way around.
I think the main issue for the lack of early marine map control is the way that marines and aliens build structures and how they differ. There have been a couple of fundamental changes which I think have added to this problem.
For the marines to build a structure – the team has to take x players out of combat. The team instantly has fewer resources (marines) for further exploration or advancement. The aliens on the other hand have autonomous structure building, managed by a single person (the commander). It is much cheaper for the aliens to build a structure in terms of players available for combat.
Essentially for basic construction, the marines need at minimum 3 people – the commander, one base builder and one resource tower builder. The base builder and resource tower builder role is shared at all times but will consistently use at least 1 – 2 marine player resources to have these roles. The aliens do not have this disadvantage which is why they have far greater map control and can easily harass marines earlier in game.
This effectively means in a player balanced game (6v6) the stats for combat available players end up to about 3/4 marines vs 5 aliens which will end up in marines losing ground and being forced into a base turtle. This also frees up skulks to suicide rush the marine base which will trigger sentry building to free up marine player resources for territory expansion.
The stats may have increased to appear to be more balanced, but in game there is a very different feel. Most marine victories are won with sentries and MACs – slowly pushing the aliens. Sentries and MACs are how the marines keep players in aggressive combat - freeing up the build roles and base defence.
The marines have much more motivation to build up extensive defences due to the high cost that comes with losing territory and having to reclaim it. The aliens do not experience this issue as their structures are self building and need far less player resourcing. This leads to turtles and an ‘un-fun’ experience on the alien side.
Ultimately I feel that the structure building adds and somewhat causes the issue of turtles and stalemates.
I don’t think there is a quick and simple fix. Although I’d like to either see the marine structures autonomously build (sped up by marines like the gorge) or have MACs available early game to balance out combat players.
If both sides need to feel more similar than ns1 – autonomous building may be the way to go.
I think that there needs to be some fundamental work done on the marine building side - without it the cost of losing territory will always be expensive for the marines. This will encourage turtles and stalemates.
The Onos won’t solve this issue as we will end up in a fairly static gameplay framework (Marines Build base, attempt to expand. Lose territory. Build turtle. Aliens get Onos <i>the super weapon</i> and win).
Anyhow, that's my view on the cause of turtles and essentially why the Onos isn't the cure. Yes the aliens could do with some nicer seige weapons - but why include them right away when a chance of a drawn out seige could be reduced?
Please try to keep this discussion fairly positive.
Comments
The only time I see a strong early marine game is when marines have good aim and hit reg, which usually leads to spawncamp.
In general I think it's just too difficult for marines to defend outposts/tech locations in the early stage.
Not sure how to adress this without adding even more focus on turrets. Marines being able to purchase and place mines might be helping a bit though.
How about giving marines a MAC at start just like aliens start with 3 drifters to adress the lack of man power in the early game?
That would free up marines to put early pressure on res nodes and thus force skulks to play less aggressive.
In that case harvesters should maybe have a little more health so the fight for a particular area outside of tech locations isn't over that quickly.
From what you can see in a lot of games, stalemates occur mainly because of map travel time.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro-->
<b>o</b> Aliens have a hard time beating Marines, because Marines will keep spawning into a space faster than aliens can travel to it.
<b>o</b> Marines have a hard time beating aliens, because aliens can travel distances in half the time - so locking down the map is really difficult.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This is really the main reason for both teams stalemating - and it should not be the case that you have to have 'better' tech to do this...
BECAUSE...
Tiers are essentially balanced against each other, and nothing is stopping both teams being equal in their tech level - especially on larger maps.
This is also essentially how Hive 2 is working at the moment, and no one will enjoy a game where to win it feels like you are always trying to deny hive 2.
"Exo, Jetpacks"
Well, aliens will also have equal and better tech even when Marines have these.
<!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro--><b>Team play</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Another problem is balance in public games differs to clan games, because a Marine team is balanced more on a teams ability to work together and defend each other.
I am willing to bet my bottom dollar that even though UWE are aiming for a public server outcome of '50/50', this will be more like '60/40' in clan wars.
The game is sort of broken in this respect (imo) because...
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>o</b> On one hand you rely on the commander, and the commander relies on the team to help him and work together.
<b>o</b> On the other, you give every Marine the opportunity to have the same weapons as the next guy and the opportunity to fire off a few grenades and get some kills based on a more basic fps style of gameplay.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
To get Marines to work together more effectively, I think you need 'special' weapons that force players to defend each other.
Rather than everyone having a grenade launcher, just one person should. Or instead of everyone grabbing a flamer, just one person should.
Just as Fades become important to aliens and the Gorges tend to buddy up with them, with Skulks dealing with leftovers. A gorge wants to fight, but cant without Fade cover, and visa versa.
The Marine weapons sort of counter-balance this 'team play' aspect.
The ARC is a good example. People will be drawn to them in clan matches as they distract aliens when they are firing, and give the marines more confidence and opportunity to score kills. You also tend to feel more comfortable and confident when there is marine tech rolling around.
This 'relationship' between weapons and players needs to be 'a lot' more fundamental on the marine team if the game is to be balanced effectively.
I have always stated that weapons need to have more of role in this effect, rather than the spam tactics we see currently.
I'd like to see the flamer being much more powerful, but useless as a solo weapon for example if aliens get near.
The grenade launcher could be more interesting in how it works, because that and the flamer I think are essentially trying to do the same job. I think the flamer should be structure clearing, and the grenade launcher should perhaps be aimed more at life forms.
why does it have to be explosive, why not some sort of plasma emitting electrical gas grenade? Or something equally as interesting.
Fade attack 2 is also really boring, and needs something more.
I don't like sentries either, I think they are still flawed and need more purpose than filling rooms. If they were used more for 'directional denial' in corridors, etc, I think they would be a lot better. My concept below is something I thought of a while ago in terms of giving more 'role and purpose' to them.
But seriously... why are the weapons a little... boring. The Marine weapons could be more on par with the aliens attacks, and the alien attacks are nothing special or that interesting. This is the future with nanites and ######.. what is going on UWE. You have such a great opportunity for weapons to more than AKs or Colt M4s???
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<!--quoteo(post=1888160:date=Dec 3 2011, 05:08 PM:name=Tim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tim @ Dec 3 2011, 05:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although I’d like to either see the marine structures autonomously build (sped up by marines like the gorge) or have MACs available early game to balance out combat players.
If both sides need to feel more similar than ns1 – autonomous building may be the way to go.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion it would be better if the alien team is forced to have atleast 1 gorge in the beginning of the game. A solution can be that the gorge can help build structures and the autobuild is much slower (cant help hives). If this is the case then the alien team will be punished if they fail a rush attack (no one goes gorge) and the alien rts haven't been finished while the marine team has managed to defend and build 1 - 2 rts. Maybe an upgrade later in-game can be to speed up the autobuild process.
+1, it would replace the mandatory marine that could be out on the map taking ground. The comm would be able to get early meds\ammo\structures for his marines quicker.
Honestly, I believe believe everything to be well within balanced proportions, only players aren't accustomed to the concept. There are still ALOT of players on each team either trying to SG a hive or overrun fortified positions (the alien team). There is nothing wrong with bile.. Nothing wrong with turrets.
Whats a turret or 2 going to do to a rush onos and 2 gorgs bile-bombing?
To say that marines have it hard because of building time is preposterous. They have ranged weopons and free-range!
And the fact that Gorgs are actually required for alot of things means that offensive capacity is regulated by the (aliens) team to work or hunt in proximity ti that gorg.
BTW. The marines are the 'INTRUDERS', remember?
if you checkout NS2HD latest video where he's at the office interviewing the staff, Charlie mentions one of the items he is trying to look into right now is exactly this topic - Addressing stalemates.
Theres a lot of interesting posts already in this thread and here's my 2 cents on top of it all.
There is currently not enough uses for Team res. After all upgrades is researched, everything on the marine team can only go towards turrets and arcs with the occasional pg/armoury if they manage to push to a new location
Similarly for Aliens, after the upgrades and hives, its all just about chambers.
If you were to compare this to an RTS like starcraft, they deal with this issue easily.
Limit the amount of res you can get from a node.
The alternative would be to introduce a drain on res. This can be in the form of repair costs or ammo replacement costs.
side-tracking a little bit
here's a suggestion focusing on just the sentry turret.
Imagine being able to destroy or cause a sentry to malfunction after a few bites.
The mac to fix it, will require a small amount of resources (2-3, whatever works). There we have created an ability to drain marine resources. The fix time should be much faster than build time... the main point of this is to cause res drain as well as temporary relief.. (similar to knocking power out but with less impact)
This also gives aliens the ability to take down unmanned (and un-maced) fortifications quicker.
The problem with this is that you are imagining a perfect scenario where people watch or play a training mission and suddenly turn into 'the perfect game playing zombie robot'.
Your thinking is flawed.
NS2 has been out for a while, there are a lot of people out there who play casually but enough to know how to play. Nothing has changed, it has gotten better, but not by much. It is an open environment, and there are no game play aspects to push players in the right direction. Which are needed, and could be implemented subtly and cleverly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine being able to destroy or cause a sentry to malfunction after a few bites.
The mac to fix it, will require a small amount of resources (2-3, whatever works). There we have created an ability to drain marine resources. The fix time should be much faster than build time... the main point of this is to cause res drain as well as temporary relief.. (similar to knocking power out but with less impact)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, poor thinking imo.
This is the problem with sentry turrets, and continues to plague them.
Marines have a hard enough time on public servers as it is to lock down the levels. Partly due to the fact of what I have mentioned (weapons that lack roles, and allow for a rambo style fps) but also because turrets never really seem to do the job.
Nano shield is essentially the 'electrical defence' of NS1 structures, a design element meant to solve the issue of being able to lock down the levels. The turret never really translated to clan wars in ns1 as a tactical and strategic option.
I have said, and will always say it. The key to turrets is to have them be used sparingly, but effectively. Brute massive force to cut off map routes for aliens, and force them to play the marine game.
The key to aliens success is the ability to traverse the map quickly, after death, to return to the same spot and deal greater damage over time than Marines.
Denying certain 'routes' and forcing them to take a longer time to reach a destination is key.
Some sort of temporary mine defence, combined with expensive/powerful but easily flanked sentries is a potential solution that I think would work - and would also be part of a more tactical game than spam.
I think they should be so powerful that they can effectively deny an area to pretty much every life form but Onos.
But yet easily flanked due to low FOV, and can not be positioned facing each other to create an unstoppable defence (self hurt).
Even if they were, a low FOV would still make them vulnerable and ONLY make them effective in corridors - the blood supply to level progression as either team.
When you are pushing a certain direction, you will be forcing aliens to meet you head on, or to take longer routes or vents to circumnavigate an route denial that a sentry would cause.
I like this, it would encourage the game flow to be more dynamic and turtling would have its risk. It doesn't sound sexy and I generally dislike it in normal RTS games but I can't see any downside to it in NS.
The biggest problem I see is that there is no easy way for aliens to break through marine fortifications. The fade is almost totally useless for taking out structures as it takes a very long time. Skulks do good damage, but don't have the staying power to take out anything. That leaves bile bomb as the only way (which was briefly discussed about being removed!) to clear out areas. It takes a well-organized alien team to cover gorges. And now since gorges can't belly slide without infestation, this makes bomb-and-run tactics even worse.
I don't see this getting better in the future. The onos is stated not to be a structure killing lifeform, but rather a disruptor. However, the marines will get the exo and the jetpack, which will give them even more abilities to hold territory and mount comebacks.
Some ideas:
-Buff fade and onos damage to structures (especially onos).
-Give whip bombard the ability to damage without LOS (my suggestion was for it to work like babblers in NS1).
-Limit senties per area (like a mod does currently).
-Give the aliens big bonuses for holding 3 or more hives (like NS1) so it's easy to end the game
Also remember that competitive matches will see far more marine victories than public play due to increased organization.
This is why marines who are stuck in their base with no tech, can come back against hive 3 aliens. Regardless of the absence of higher tier tech, this imbalance must be addressed.
Since ranged attacks create this imbalance, a ranged change could fix it. Gorge bilebomb just needs a little range increase. He dies too easily for short range bile bomb to be useful. With this change, aliens can take out marine structures, balancing the 'stalemate' situation.
I believe it began when the damage upgrades went away, making structures much tougher. So, turrets could be made surmountable by lowering their health so a suiciding skulk can just barely not kill a single turret.