<!--quoteo(post=1887747:date=Nov 30 2011, 10:06 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 30 2011, 10:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to preserve the fluidity of the games movement. Restricting movement to "you can only do x when you're doing y unless you're doing z" makes gameplay feel choppy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not completely counter-intuitive though. Jumping backwards is really tough to do; you have no idea where you're going or if there's anything in your way, and you have to shift your center of gravity behind yourself, which makes humans much less stable than one in front of them.
Do the devs have any plans to change how close combat works? I'm sorry to say it looks pretty bad, quite messy...often looks like the marines are doing parkour.
<!--quoteo(post=1887749:date=Dec 1 2011, 04:16 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Dec 1 2011, 04:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not completely counter-intuitive though. Jumping backwards is really tough to do; you have no idea where you're going or if there's anything in your way, and you have to shift your center of gravity behind yourself, which makes humans much less stable than one in front of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a simulation of movement - there is not a 1:1 relationship between movement in a video game and physical movement. "Jumping backwards" in an FPS can not be literally compared to physically jumping backwards, because in reality there is a lot more going in as far as co-ordination and balance in order to achieve that movement, which doesn't necessarily correlate to precisely defined movements such as "jump" or "run."
"Run" "Jump" and "Crouch" can not represent the full range of human mobility, and the challenge of an FPS interface is to preserve the "feel" of bipedal agility while restricting input to a manageable number of options. Disabling "jump" while moving backwards might be literally intuitive, but it would absolutely feel unintuitive in practice.
<!--quoteo(post=1887563:date=Nov 30 2011, 01:57 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 30 2011, 01:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could just make firing slow you down when moving backwards, as the only time it's a problem is in firefights, there's no reason to have it when you're not in one.
Or, more sensibly, you could re-add slowdown on hit for marines, or do something about the general habit of alien attacking being mostly composed of flailing ineffectually at the air while you try to track a target flickering across your screen constantly. It's harder for aliens to hit marines in close combat than it is for marines to hit aliens, because marines tend to have continuous fire or area effect weapons. There's pretty obviously something wrong there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
KAPOW, here's the solution. Let marines walk at full speed when not firing. When they fire, depending on movement direction, they get a penalty.
For example, if moving forawrd, or strafing, no penalty, if moving backwards, penalty to what it is now.
This would get rid of the clunky feeling, but not the penalty.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1887704:date=Nov 30 2011, 08:44 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 30 2011, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->don't see why anything +jump is relevant to "w" starting at high speed and slowing to walk speed over a second or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I quoted you instead of Jaweese, my bad ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1887766:date=Dec 1 2011, 04:57 PM:name=ogz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ogz @ Dec 1 2011, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887766"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->should gorges be able to spit at you while running backwards at full speed?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, because you can <b>shoot back</b>.
I dont know if anyone has suggested this but it came to after thinking about it randomly
How about making backwards marine walking slow penalty be slightly randomized... kind of like a jerky feeling as if when you try to run backwards and stumble a bit. Have this only apply after an extended period of motion so you can move smoothly just simply backing up but in the case of moving backwards and firing at the enemy it is disadvantageous.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1887704:date=Nov 30 2011, 09:44 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 30 2011, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->don't see why anything +jump is relevant to "w" starting at high speed and slowing to walk speed over a second or so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's Ctrl(crouching) reducing your maxspeed when you duckjump, not normal jump.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1887737:date=Dec 1 2011, 04:05 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Dec 1 2011, 04:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do we need backwards jumping? It seems to me that it would look awkward, and much more importantly, serve no real gameplay purpose. In my opinion, jumping for Marines should be a movement tool, not a combat or dodging tool, and I can't see how jumping backwards would help outside of dodging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Decent marines will always use jump to try and dodge, it's kind of their last resort if an alien gets close. I don't think backward speed is a problem at all, it's a very slow way of going back, while being able to shoot at your target.
<!--quoteo(post=1887759:date=Dec 1 2011, 02:09 AM:name=Ironsoul)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ironsoul @ Dec 1 2011, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->KAPOW, here's the solution. Let marines walk at full speed when not firing. When they fire, depending on movement direction, they get a penalty.
For example, if moving forawrd, or strafing, no penalty, if moving backwards, penalty to what it is now.
This would get rid of the clunky feeling, but not the penalty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to second this. Why do we have slowed backwards movement? Because we don't want marines to be able to easily put distance between themselves and aliens while attacking at the same time. The problem with that solution is that it feels unnatural and constraining. This solution solves that without breaking the original problem again.
I'd also like to suggest that different weapons get different penalties. Primary weapons would get a big penalty, but lighter weapons, like the pistol, would allow you to fire without slowing down so much. This also opens up some new design space for weapons: one could add smaller, researchable primaries, like an SMG, that had a smaller movement penalty, or simply add another area to balance the current ones, i.e. "oops, overbuffed the flamethrower? have marines rooted to the spot while firing it."
<!--quoteo(post=1888434:date=Dec 5 2011, 04:02 AM:name=ThatOtherOtherGuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ThatOtherOtherGuy @ Dec 5 2011, 04:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with that solution is that it feels unnatural and constraining.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Walk forward, walk backwards.
Run forward, run backward.
Sprint forward, "sprint" backward.
Jump forward, jump backward.
Do combinations.
Not as natural as you thought in real life, is it?
<!--quoteo(post=1888436:date=Dec 5 2011, 02:21 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Dec 5 2011, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Walk forward, walk backwards.
Run forward, run backward.
Sprint forward, "sprint" backward.
Jump forward, jump backward.
Do combinations.
Not as natural as you thought in real life, is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not in real life, I'm in a videogame, and I haven't quite forgotten what playing quake and half life and all the other not-call-of-duty games felt like.
In a game, I can move at a constant speed in any direction and jump simply launches me into the air by magic.
It feels unnatural because that is not how games are supposed to control, not because it is not how I can move in real life.
<!--quoteo(post=1881996:date=Oct 25 2011, 01:22 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Oct 25 2011, 01:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The word "slow" has no place in an analysis or suggestion as it is a personal opinion...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1888434:date=Dec 5 2011, 03:02 AM:name=ThatOtherOtherGuy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ThatOtherOtherGuy @ Dec 5 2011, 03:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd also like to suggest that different weapons get different penalties. Primary weapons would get a big penalty, but lighter weapons, like the pistol, would allow you to fire without slowing down so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not so great an idea since the pistol is about as good a weapon as the rifle (and this is intentional) in terms of killing power vs accuracy.
<!--quoteo(post=1887759:date=Dec 1 2011, 02:09 AM:name=Ironsoul)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ironsoul @ Dec 1 2011, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->KAPOW, here's the solution. Let marines walk at full speed when not firing. When they fire, depending on movement direction, they get a penalty.
For example, if moving forawrd, or strafing, no penalty, if moving backwards, penalty to what it is now.
This would get rid of the clunky feeling, but not the penalty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This gets back to the original problem marines walking backwards shooting stuff was too easy.
Instead of walking backwards shooting constantly the new method adopted would be
walk backwards fast burst of fire walk backwards fast burst of fire.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1888472:date=Dec 5 2011, 07:22 AM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ Dec 5 2011, 07:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1881996:date=Oct 25 2011, 08:22 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Oct 25 2011, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1881996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The word "slow" has no place in an analysis or suggestion as it is a personal opinion...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/shifty.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1888506:date=Dec 5 2011, 04:48 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 5 2011, 04:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://i.imgur.com/xtCOh.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Found this, and had to post it in this thread, sry!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty much what the bad gamers are asking for.
<!--quoteo(post=1888436:date=Dec 5 2011, 02:21 AM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Dec 5 2011, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not as natural as you thought in real life, is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get the feeling you're typing this sitting in an office chair and thinking "running backwards is really hard" but if you were to actually go outside and try it, it's actually really easy to jog backwards on a level surface (like all the floors in NS2). It's also easy to run forwards while looking backwards. I'm not sure why your average NS2 forumsite thinks these things are rocket science, maybe a general lack of fitness and/or coordination?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
Alrighty then. Let me set you up in a room full of metal grates, lack of railings, jagged edges, aliens monsters, and sudden drops. Then lets see how fast you can run backwards and be all right.
<!--quoteo(post=1888574:date=Dec 5 2011, 10:07 PM:name=IeptBarakat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Dec 5 2011, 10:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->room full of metal grates, lack of railings, jagged edges, aliens monsters, and sudden drops.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1888577:date=Dec 5 2011, 10:12 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Dec 5 2011, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888577"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->try to be less condescending with your posts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1888521:date=Dec 5 2011, 03:56 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Dec 5 2011, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's pretty much what the bad gamers are asking for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I wanted to do ironing I'd have to use an iron.
And yes, bad gamers are asking for faster backward movement because they can't deal with it. Get over that fact already.
EDIT: And if I were to be condescending I'd tell you to get better at the game, as you've told me to go walk backwards outside. I'm labelling you a bad gamer not telling you to go experience it.
Comments
It's not completely counter-intuitive though. Jumping backwards is really tough to do; you have no idea where you're going or if there's anything in your way, and you have to shift your center of gravity behind yourself, which makes humans much less stable than one in front of them.
It's a simulation of movement - there is not a 1:1 relationship between movement in a video game and physical movement. "Jumping backwards" in an FPS can not be literally compared to physically jumping backwards, because in reality there is a lot more going in as far as co-ordination and balance in order to achieve that movement, which doesn't necessarily correlate to precisely defined movements such as "jump" or "run."
"Run" "Jump" and "Crouch" can not represent the full range of human mobility, and the challenge of an FPS interface is to preserve the "feel" of bipedal agility while restricting input to a manageable number of options. Disabling "jump" while moving backwards might be literally intuitive, but it would absolutely feel unintuitive in practice.
Or, more sensibly, you could re-add slowdown on hit for marines, or do something about the general habit of alien attacking being mostly composed of flailing ineffectually at the air while you try to track a target flickering across your screen constantly. It's harder for aliens to hit marines in close combat than it is for marines to hit aliens, because marines tend to have continuous fire or area effect weapons. There's pretty obviously something wrong there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
KAPOW, here's the solution. Let marines walk at full speed when not firing. When they fire, depending on movement direction, they get a penalty.
For example, if moving forawrd, or strafing, no penalty, if moving backwards, penalty to what it is now.
This would get rid of the clunky feeling, but not the penalty.
I quoted you instead of Jaweese, my bad ;)
<i>-fixed</i>
Yes, because you can <b>shoot back</b>.
(Not sure what stance you're taking on this.)
Corey's solution definitely seems good though.
How about making backwards marine walking slow penalty be slightly randomized... kind of like a jerky feeling as if when you try to run backwards and stumble a bit. Have this only apply after an extended period of motion so you can move smoothly just simply backing up but in the case of moving backwards and firing at the enemy it is disadvantageous.
It's Ctrl(crouching) reducing your maxspeed when you duckjump, not normal jump.
Decent marines will always use jump to try and dodge, it's kind of their last resort if an alien gets close.
I don't think backward speed is a problem at all, it's a very slow way of going back, while being able to shoot at your target.
Edit: sorry for doubleposting o.O
For example, if moving forawrd, or strafing, no penalty, if moving backwards, penalty to what it is now.
This would get rid of the clunky feeling, but not the penalty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I want to second this. Why do we have slowed backwards movement? Because we don't want marines to be able to easily put distance between themselves and aliens while attacking at the same time. The problem with that solution is that it feels unnatural and constraining. This solution solves that without breaking the original problem again.
I'd also like to suggest that different weapons get different penalties. Primary weapons would get a big penalty, but lighter weapons, like the pistol, would allow you to fire without slowing down so much. This also opens up some new design space for weapons: one could add smaller, researchable primaries, like an SMG, that had a smaller movement penalty, or simply add another area to balance the current ones, i.e. "oops, overbuffed the flamethrower? have marines rooted to the spot while firing it."
Walk forward, walk backwards.
Run forward, run backward.
Sprint forward, "sprint" backward.
Jump forward, jump backward.
Do combinations.
Not as natural as you thought in real life, is it?
Run forward, run backward.
Sprint forward, "sprint" backward.
Jump forward, jump backward.
Do combinations.
Not as natural as you thought in real life, is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not in real life, I'm in a videogame, and I haven't quite forgotten what playing quake and half life and all the other not-call-of-duty games felt like.
In a game, I can move at a constant speed in any direction and jump simply launches me into the air by magic.
It feels unnatural because that is not how games are supposed to control, not because it is not how I can move in real life.
Not so great an idea since the pistol is about as good a weapon as the rifle (and this is intentional) in terms of killing power vs accuracy.
For example, if moving forawrd, or strafing, no penalty, if moving backwards, penalty to what it is now.
This would get rid of the clunky feeling, but not the penalty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This gets back to the original problem
marines walking backwards shooting stuff was too easy.
Instead of walking backwards shooting constantly
the new method adopted would be
walk backwards fast
burst of fire
walk backwards fast
burst of fire.
Found this, and had to post it in this thread, sry!
<img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/shifty.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Found this, and had to post it in this thread, sry!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's pretty much what the bad gamers are asking for.
I get the feeling you're typing this sitting in an office chair and thinking "running backwards is really hard" but if you were to actually go outside and try it, it's actually really easy to jog backwards on a level surface (like all the floors in NS2). It's also easy to run forwards while looking backwards. I'm not sure why your average NS2 forumsite thinks these things are rocket science, maybe a general lack of fitness and/or coordination?
<img src="http://www.halflife2.net/news_images/201007/1280175183_NS2-HiveRoomBattle.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
yeah that looks really challenging
In real life, it's extremely difficult to do. And believe it or not I have ran backwards before, try to be less condescending with your posts.
This is also not quake. So the rules of movement on quake games go out the window.
Next..
<!--quoteo(post=1888521:date=Dec 5 2011, 03:56 PM:name=konata)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (konata @ Dec 5 2011, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1888521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's pretty much what the bad gamers are asking for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The ironing lol.
yeah that looks really challenging<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/QiNJQh.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Try running backwards on terrain like this while trying to aim a gun at something that will bite your legs off.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayrauftFJ8E" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayrauftFJ8E</a>
impossible:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bplv-se2LAU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bplv-se2LAU</a>
/facepalm
You mean irony.
If I wanted to do ironing I'd have to use an iron.
And yes, bad gamers are asking for faster backward movement because they can't deal with it. Get over that fact already.
EDIT: And if I were to be condescending I'd tell you to get better at the game, as you've told me to go walk backwards outside. I'm labelling you a bad gamer not telling you to go experience it.