Just tested one game so far, and that was on tram(which i havent played much after summit appeared). I joined late in game, so there where a LOT of entities all over the place(alien had 4 hives i think). Serverrate seemed better(15-22ish) even with all the stuff around. Cool to see all the cysts in the roof etc.
My fps was 15-30 most of the game(shadows and atmospherics off), so it was hard to hit anything moving. Played on US server, so it probably contributed to poor fps. Will check on summit later on a eu server to see if performance has improved for me.
Other stuff i noticed: Seems like dropped weapons disappear slightly faster than in 188. Still cant seem to hear lerk shooting spikes unless im less than ~2 meters away. Is it supposed to be that stealthy?
<!--quoteo(post=1887915:date=Dec 2 2011, 12:54 AM:name=Ender_74)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ender_74 @ Dec 2 2011, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 Does this means marines keep their armor upgrades but aliens lose melee upgrades. 4-5 bites in end-game ????<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed. I haven't testet it yet, but without the melee updates, I think, a skulk (without yenocide) is in the endgame just a drag...
<!--quoteo(post=1887941:date=Dec 2 2011, 12:35 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 2 2011, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just out of interest, what was the reason for removing alien melee upgrades?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taking a wild guess here, but guessing it might be to that aliens scale with lifefroms aswell as upgrades. Granted, so does marines with weapons, but the effect is alot less than for aliens. How long will this allow for 2-hit kills as fade?
The Kharaa have been more about updating various aspects about themselves rather then their raw damage. Even armor was, as you had to choose from regeneration or carpace. I was abit surprised to see the adition of armor/damage upgrade for Kharaa. I hope for more "fun" upgrades.
Well, still unable to get decent FPS with more then eight players on a decent server. Marine movement and aiming still feels clunky and unresponsive. Didn't change much for me. Waiting for 190...
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1887877:date=Dec 2 2011, 03:59 AM:name=Tux0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tux0r @ Dec 2 2011, 03:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can someone elaborate on this one?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Kharaa are probably going back to their roots of the varied none damage evolution system they had back in NS. Raw damage output was never really meant for the Kharaa. Instead they will get more tools to cope with the things the marines throw at them.
<i>-Makes the game very interesting as well with all the options they used to have</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1887951:date=Dec 2 2011, 08:03 AM:name=gorge.ous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gorge.ous @ Dec 2 2011, 08:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887951"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, still unable to get decent FPS with more then eight players on a decent server. Marine movement and aiming still feels clunky and unresponsive. Didn't change much for me. Waiting for 190...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your performance will be greatly affected by how far away from the server you are, how powerful the server is, and your own PC.
I can tell you, I played transatlantic on a Core2Duo server during testing with 16+ players, and the game was playable. Maybe your ping was bad to this 'decent' server, but I'd need all of the specs of your machine and the servers to say otherwise.
<!--quoteo(post=1887937:date=Dec 2 2011, 12:05 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Dec 2 2011, 12:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The muffled sound bug hasn't gone away. No idea what triggers it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ah, this is a known bug? I'm so tired of it... you can't play a game like this without proper sound... The ingame voicecomm sounds perfect, yet the rest of the game just isn't audible most of the time, yet sometimes you hear it normally for a few seconds, then it drops off into either mumbling or simply no ingame sound...
also, the game I played had lots and lots of things that got killed yet didn't disappear (for anyone, a few minutes there was a fade in our base hitting the ip (it seemed), yet eveyrone who shot it didn't get it killed, and it wasn't doing any damage (and it wasn't a player anymore).
didn't think this game could get buggier than 188...
it seems the mouse lag, while still there, is at least less than 188, which is promising.
see you guys in 190 (although the melee upgrades being removed sounds like ns2 is heading downhill... hitting a marine 5 times is just bull######)
<!--quoteo(post=1887966:date=Dec 2 2011, 02:15 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Dec 2 2011, 02:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->see you guys in 190 (although the melee upgrades being removed sounds like ns2 is heading downhill... hitting a marine 5 times is just bull######)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure something will be put in it's place. I really doubt they would just remove it and do nothing in it's place.
<!--quoteo(post=1887966:date=Dec 2 2011, 03:15 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Dec 2 2011, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ah, this is a known bug? I'm so tired of it... you can't play a game like this without proper sound... The ingame voicecomm sounds perfect, yet the rest of the game just isn't audible most of the time, yet sometimes you hear it normally for a few seconds, then it drops off into either mumbling or simply no ingame sound...
also, the game I played had lots and lots of things that got killed yet didn't disappear (for anyone, a few minutes there was a fade in our base hitting the ip (it seemed), yet eveyrone who shot it didn't get it killed, and it wasn't doing any damage (and it wasn't a player anymore).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea other people had it since 188 too. To me it's like the shade's passive effect on marines' hearing. Only there's no shade and I wasn't a marine. It even happens while spectating. Everything is muffled apart from a small radius around a player where you can hear normal gun fire sounds.
Those ghost players stay around until server is reset as far as I know.
can't wait for the jet pack exo suits and onos... then we will be into some heavy heavy testing (AND THAT MUCH CLOSER TO beta COMPLETION!), might get some of my buddies to pick up the game to support you guys...
such a great job for a small group of people. KEEP IT UP!
didn't know I didn't have a forum account, i purchased the game about 9 months ago or so, I played NS1 as well :)
<!--quoteo(post=1887974:date=Dec 2 2011, 04:06 PM:name=ryukolink)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ryukolink @ Dec 2 2011, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can't wait for the jet pack exo suits and onos... then we will be into some heavy heavy testing (AND THAT MUCH CLOSER TO beta COMPLETION!), might get some of my buddies to pick up the game to support you guys...
such a great job for a small group of people. KEEP IT UP!
didn't know I didn't have a forum account, i purchased the game about 9 months ago or so, I played NS1 as well :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haven't played yet, but I applaud the UWE team on the quick-release build. There were obvious problems in 188, so I'm glad to see a rapid response in addressing those issues. Most annoying was definitely the pistol fire spam as I've seen several players abusing this (would only run around with the pistol).
The changes all sound good on paper, and aliens definitely needed a nerf. Just from my pub experience, aliens would win over 70% of matches in 188. Typically the marines can only win if the aliens don't have a commander or if the marines have a superior skill or player advantage, which was very discouraging. Aliens have many more upgrades coming, so to have them with melee upgrades as well would seem like too much. Don't forget about carapace and other researchable abilities that will strengthen the alien team -- it's all about upgrades, not permanent stat bonuses.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1887877:date=Dec 2 2011, 04:59 AM:name=Tux0r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tux0r @ Dec 2 2011, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887877"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can someone elaborate on this one?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#1 - combat is too fast as it is, and adding alien melee upgrades to it makes it even faster. #2 - its symmetrical to the marine weapons upgrades. Need more asymmetry.
The difference isn't THAT noticeable, actually_ lvl 3 armor marine: 100 health + 90 armor -> 280 hits skulk: 75 damage every 0.45 sec, 4 hits needed to kill fade: 70 puncture damage -> 105 hits every 0.65 sec, 3 hits needed to kill
Previously, it was 3 and 3, actually... though you only had 14 hits left as a marine after 2 fade swipes. Now you will have 70.
The major difference is that the marines will now not be FORCED to buy armslab/armor-1 first thing.
There's still sound bugs, it's sometimes muffled or quiet, turret keeps making annoying shooting sounds, there was also a bug with beacon, it didn't work and the message didn't go away.
I've noticed for a while now that sound has a horrible reverb in a map im working on that has a large open space, tone it down or give us the option to disable it.
<!--quoteo(post=1887986:date=Dec 2 2011, 05:22 PM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Dec 2 2011, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->#1 - combat is too fast as it is, and adding alien melee upgrades to it makes it even faster. #2 - its symmetrical to the marine weapons upgrades. Need more asymmetry.
The difference isn't THAT noticeable, actually_ lvl 3 armor marine: 100 health + 90 armor -> 280 hits skulk: 75 damage every 0.45 sec, 4 hits needed to kill fade: 70 puncture damage -> 105 hits every 0.65 sec, 3 hits needed to kill
Previously, it was 3 and 3, actually... though you only had 14 hits left as a marine after 2 fade swipes. Now you will have 70.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If NS1 is anything to go by, those differences are huge in any gameplay where the performance doesn't override everything else. In NS1 the aliens usually wanted to finish the game before marines could get to 3/3. There's only that much you can do with versatility if you can't leave a proper dent on your opponent even at melee range.
I definitely like the idea of asymmetric upgrades, but it's in no way an easy thing to do properly. For example in NS1 the upgrade system didn't work particularly well.
cysts were giving the wrong info: some were grey but not degenerating; sometimes showed up orange when placing but then 'unconnected' when placed, then begin degenrating yet still orange; sometimes were orange but suddenly became unconnected and didnt turn grey. <img src="http://i.imgur.com/sbMI2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
marine observatory was at 0% health and could not be destroyed <img src="http://i.imgur.com/BT3cc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
after aliens killed power and took out IPs and cc, they'd won the game, but somehow I was spawned back into the game for a few seconds until we all appeared in the ready room.
is this a bug? when all players were dead and no eggs were available our spectator camera was locked on to the hive. The view is very close up so basically we all had to stare at the hive for a minute and it was hard to read the text chat cos the burning hive makes it really hard to read the text. Same thing happened as marines we all have to watch an empty cc be chewed on if nobody is alive. Cant look around room or anything since the view is centred on the hive/cc.
<!--quoteo(post=1887993:date=Dec 2 2011, 05:47 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Dec 2 2011, 05:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I definitely like the idea of asymmetric upgrades, but it's in no way an easy thing to do properly. For example in NS1 the upgrade system didn't work particularly well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> By itself, due to some upgrades being superior (Celerity?), or when compared to the marines' steady improvement?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if you would like to disable the reporting, open the file %appdata%Natural Selection 2options.xml and change true to false in this line(you will need to run the game once before this option shows up):<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would just like to say, bravo. Other companies should take notice about being able to disable things like this. While I will surely be opting to stay with reporting, the fact that you let everyone know I believe shows trust between the company and the user.
korvoJoin Date: 2009-11-19Member: 69427Members, Squad Five Blue
"Dieses Spiel ist zurzeit nicht Verfügbar. Bitte versuchen Sie es später erneut." =>"This game is currently not available. Please try again later." ...narf...
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited December 2011
The new marine socket build animation pretty cool. Also really like that melee upgrade research is gone. Gorge spitting things onto the walls and ceilings is an awesome addition. Wish the health/armor was on the left side. And happy that +use is to pick up weapons. Overall a great patch.
Would love the game to use more of my gpu than cpu. As I tend to have low fps regardless of settings.
<!--quoteo(post=1887999:date=Dec 2 2011, 06:49 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Dec 2 2011, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By itself, due to some upgrades being superior (Celerity?), or when compared to the marines' steady improvement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mostly the aliens didn't scale very well with the marine upgrades towards endgame. They simply didn't have the muscle to fight off well upgraded marines with decent aim without all 3 chambers. Either you ran out of HP (no DC and carapace), out of mobility (no MC and celerity) or out of damage (no SC and focus).
Certainly I'd also prefer a more balanced set of upgrades too though. I think the way NS worked, it strongly pushed especially higher lifeforms towards certain kind of upgrades. For example as a fade you usually just had to squeeze in all the speed, endurance and damage you could get to survive against competent marines and that kind of led you to pick the directly effective upgrades rather than some extra utility like adren, silence or regen. I think it might be a bit different with NS2 and increased lifeform count and different mechanics though, but I'm not sure if it'll end up being for the better or worse. As a first thought I'd expected lifeforms ending up being weaker to compensate the higher numbers, which might lead into even more need to pick extra survivability to perform hit and run.
---
And I by no means that NS1 system was terrible, but I think it's one of the things that NS2 could improve a lot. It was one of those things that you loved despite its flaws, not because of them.
Comments
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/OhsYB.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
D:
I joined late in game, so there where a LOT of entities all over the place(alien had 4 hives i think). Serverrate seemed better(15-22ish) even with all the stuff around. Cool to see all the cysts in the roof etc.
My fps was 15-30 most of the game(shadows and atmospherics off), so it was hard to hit anything moving. Played on US server, so it probably contributed to poor fps.
Will check on summit later on a eu server to see if performance has improved for me.
Other stuff i noticed: Seems like dropped weapons disappear slightly faster than in 188. Still cant seem to hear lerk shooting spikes unless im less than ~2 meters away. Is it supposed to be that stealthy?
Does this means marines keep their armor upgrades but aliens lose melee upgrades. 4-5 bites in end-game ????<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agreed.
I haven't testet it yet, but without the melee updates, I think, a skulk (without yenocide) is in the endgame just a drag...
Taking a wild guess here, but guessing it might be to that aliens scale with lifefroms aswell as upgrades. Granted, so does marines with weapons, but the effect is alot less than for aliens. How long will this allow for 2-hit kills as fade?
The Kharaa have been more about updating various aspects about themselves rather then their raw damage. Even armor was, as you had to choose from regeneration or carpace. I was abit surprised to see the adition of armor/damage upgrade for Kharaa. I hope for more "fun" upgrades.
Didn't change much for me.
Waiting for 190...
The Kharaa are probably going back to their roots of the varied none damage evolution system they had back in NS. Raw damage output was never really meant for the Kharaa. Instead they will get more tools to cope with the things the marines throw at them.
<i>-Makes the game very interesting as well with all the options they used to have</i>
Didn't change much for me.
Waiting for 190...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your performance will be greatly affected by how far away from the server you are, how powerful the server is, and your own PC.
I can tell you, I played transatlantic on a Core2Duo server during testing with 16+ players, and the game was playable. Maybe your ping was bad to this 'decent' server, but I'd need all of the specs of your machine and the servers to say otherwise.
ah, this is a known bug? I'm so tired of it... you can't play a game like this without proper sound... The ingame voicecomm sounds perfect, yet the rest of the game just isn't audible most of the time, yet sometimes you hear it normally for a few seconds, then it drops off into either mumbling or simply no ingame sound...
also, the game I played had lots and lots of things that got killed yet didn't disappear (for anyone, a few minutes there was a fade in our base hitting the ip (it seemed), yet eveyrone who shot it didn't get it killed, and it wasn't doing any damage (and it wasn't a player anymore).
didn't think this game could get buggier than 188...
it seems the mouse lag, while still there, is at least less than 188, which is promising.
see you guys in 190 (although the melee upgrades being removed sounds like ns2 is heading downhill... hitting a marine 5 times is just bull######)
I'm sure something will be put in it's place. I really doubt they would just remove it and do nothing in it's place.
also, the game I played had lots and lots of things that got killed yet didn't disappear (for anyone, a few minutes there was a fade in our base hitting the ip (it seemed), yet eveyrone who shot it didn't get it killed, and it wasn't doing any damage (and it wasn't a player anymore).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea other people had it since 188 too. To me it's like the shade's passive effect on marines' hearing. Only there's no shade and I wasn't a marine. It even happens while spectating. Everything is muffled apart from a small radius around a player where you can hear normal gun fire sounds.
Those ghost players stay around until server is reset as far as I know.
such a great job for a small group of people. KEEP IT UP!
didn't know I didn't have a forum account, i purchased the game about 9 months ago or so, I played NS1 as well :)
such a great job for a small group of people. KEEP IT UP!
didn't know I didn't have a forum account, i purchased the game about 9 months ago or so, I played NS1 as well :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welcome aboard!
The changes all sound good on paper, and aliens definitely needed a nerf. Just from my pub experience, aliens would win over 70% of matches in 188. Typically the marines can only win if the aliens don't have a commander or if the marines have a superior skill or player advantage, which was very discouraging. Aliens have many more upgrades coming, so to have them with melee upgrades as well would seem like too much. Don't forget about carapace and other researchable abilities that will strengthen the alien team -- it's all about upgrades, not permanent stat bonuses.
<a href="http://youtu.be/moDqpf3lZGg" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/moDqpf3lZGg</a>
In 188 i guess, i would be down to 0-10fps and server tickrate below 20 if i tried it with that many structures and 12 bots + video recording :P
#1 - combat is too fast as it is, and adding alien melee upgrades to it makes it even faster.
#2 - its symmetrical to the marine weapons upgrades. Need more asymmetry.
The difference isn't THAT noticeable, actually_
lvl 3 armor marine: 100 health + 90 armor -> 280 hits
skulk: 75 damage every 0.45 sec, 4 hits needed to kill
fade: 70 puncture damage -> 105 hits every 0.65 sec, 3 hits needed to kill
Previously, it was 3 and 3, actually... though you only had 14 hits left as a marine after 2 fade swipes. Now you will have 70.
The major difference is that the marines will now not be FORCED to buy armslab/armor-1 first thing.
There's still sound bugs, it's sometimes muffled or quiet, turret keeps making annoying shooting sounds, there was also a bug with beacon, it didn't work and the message didn't go away.
I've noticed for a while now that sound has a horrible reverb in a map im working on that has a large open space, tone it down or give us the option to disable it.
I also like the removal of upgrades, I never really saw the point in them, both sides end up getting them so they mostly cancel each other out.
#2 - its symmetrical to the marine weapons upgrades. Need more asymmetry.
The difference isn't THAT noticeable, actually_
lvl 3 armor marine: 100 health + 90 armor -> 280 hits
skulk: 75 damage every 0.45 sec, 4 hits needed to kill
fade: 70 puncture damage -> 105 hits every 0.65 sec, 3 hits needed to kill
Previously, it was 3 and 3, actually... though you only had 14 hits left as a marine after 2 fade swipes. Now you will have 70.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If NS1 is anything to go by, those differences are huge in any gameplay where the performance doesn't override everything else. In NS1 the aliens usually wanted to finish the game before marines could get to 3/3. There's only that much you can do with versatility if you can't leave a proper dent on your opponent even at melee range.
I definitely like the idea of asymmetric upgrades, but it's in no way an easy thing to do properly. For example in NS1 the upgrade system didn't work particularly well.
cysts were giving the wrong info: some were grey but not degenerating; sometimes showed up orange when placing but then 'unconnected' when placed, then begin degenrating yet still orange; sometimes were orange but suddenly became unconnected and didnt turn grey.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/sbMI2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
marine observatory was at 0% health and could not be destroyed
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/BT3cc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
after aliens killed power and took out IPs and cc, they'd won the game, but somehow I was spawned back into the game for a few seconds until we all appeared in the ready room.
is this a bug? when all players were dead and no eggs were available our spectator camera was locked on to the hive. The view is very close up so basically we all had to stare at the hive for a minute and it was hard to read the text chat cos the burning hive makes it really hard to read the text. Same thing happened as marines we all have to watch an empty cc be chewed on if nobody is alive. Cant look around room or anything since the view is centred on the hive/cc.
By itself, due to some upgrades being superior (Celerity?), or when compared to the marines' steady improvement?
I would just like to say, bravo. Other companies should take notice about being able to disable things like this. While I will surely be opting to stay with reporting, the fact that you let everyone know I believe shows trust between the company and the user.
=>"This game is currently not available. Please try again later."
...narf...
Would love the game to use more of my gpu than cpu. As I tend to have low fps regardless of settings.
Mostly the aliens didn't scale very well with the marine upgrades towards endgame. They simply didn't have the muscle to fight off well upgraded marines with decent aim without all 3 chambers. Either you ran out of HP (no DC and carapace), out of mobility (no MC and celerity) or out of damage (no SC and focus).
Certainly I'd also prefer a more balanced set of upgrades too though. I think the way NS worked, it strongly pushed especially higher lifeforms towards certain kind of upgrades. For example as a fade you usually just had to squeeze in all the speed, endurance and damage you could get to survive against competent marines and that kind of led you to pick the directly effective upgrades rather than some extra utility like adren, silence or regen. I think it might be a bit different with NS2 and increased lifeform count and different mechanics though, but I'm not sure if it'll end up being for the better or worse. As a first thought I'd expected lifeforms ending up being weaker to compensate the higher numbers, which might lead into even more need to pick extra survivability to perform hit and run.
---
And I by no means that NS1 system was terrible, but I think it's one of the things that NS2 could improve a lot. It was one of those things that you loved despite its flaws, not because of them.