The Whip

aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited October 2011 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">deflecting grenades, and other roles to make it more useful</div>Figured I'd start a new thread about the whip due to this recent video and carry over discussion from the tweet thread:

<a href="http://youtu.be/hgHynP6axsA" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/hgHynP6axsA</a>

A couple of thoughts:

1) The animation could be tweaked so it looks better when flipping it back. A custom sound of hitting the grenade might help.

2) Overwhelming marine GL fire should kill it. One marine's GL will not get any through. 2 marines have a better chance of getting more through (about 1\2). This is for 1 single whip. Multiple whips within range will deflect more.

3) Whips aren't really a big deal currently. GLs will be less useful against them, so marines are more inclined to shoot them instead, making them more vulnerable to skulks.

4) Whips will act as guardians of sorts for the hive and gorges. Maybe ARCs will become more mandatory for taking out entrenched alien hives (or concentrated marine fire and flamers).

5) Bombard ability disables the default "auto-grenade flipping" behavior, but enables longer range attacks for the whip instead.

What do you guys think?
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Comments

  • SeaStormSeaStorm Join Date: 2011-05-15 Member: 98808Members
    this is one awesome idea! Finally the Whip isnt just used to get the upgrades ( or maybe sometimes to protect the "back" of an hive ) . And its a very creative counter against nades, that currently are OP against buildings.

    Awesome Idea, and totally fits into the NS-like freaky features that you haven't seen before!

    +1
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Terrible idea. The last thing we need is another "feature" that prolongs games and emphasises player vs. static defense gameplay.
  • DustehDusteh Join Date: 2011-07-25 Member: 112142Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    What happens if you bounce the grenade along the floor towards the Whip?
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Like every aspect of the idea, although I hope the bombard ability will turn it into one big acid hurling offense chamber.

    Should definitely see more arcs once this is implemented.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1879761:date=Oct 14 2011, 06:54 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 14 2011, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Terrible idea. The last thing we need is another "feature" that prolongs games and emphasises player vs. static defense gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yea, i can see the crag spamming behind the whip spamming behind the hydra spamming now. And with the terrible hitboxes hydra's have atm..
    Think there should be some middle ground where the whip detonates grenades earlier and the damage aoe falloff or some such is reduced slightly so its not a total area denial. Whip 10 res, gl 25 res, i dont think there should be 1 v 1 parity.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1879761:date=Oct 13 2011, 08:54 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 13 2011, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879761"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Terrible idea. The last thing we need is another "feature" that prolongs games and emphasises player vs. static defense gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2011
    i actually don't think the whip ability will affect balance much. marines will just have to learn to bounce grenades off of ceilings/walls/floor and measure the distance of their shots. and honestly, it gives the alien team something to spend team resources on after all upgrades are done; right now the only thing to do as an alien comm after upg's are up is to set up massive fields of crags.
    in fact, particularly skillful marines might be able to use whips to make trick shots and extend the range of their shots much further.
  • LV426-ColonistLV426-Colonist Space Jockey Join Date: 2011-08-05 Member: 114269Members, Constellation
    edited October 2011
    I have a feeling this is going to cause some problems. We'll have to test it out to see though.
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    its nice addition but it doesn't solve the problems with whips we currently have. as someone pointed out in this thread, a smart marine will bounce his nades elsewhere to hurt the whip.

    this chamber must have long range ability which doesn't have to be researched or upgraded, passive ability.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2011
    I would like to see the Whip become the "bouncers" that block doorways. They could use more health, as right now, one Marine can easily kill a Whip in 5 seconds with little fear of retaliation.

    <a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/ns22011072116165105.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5200/ns22011072116165105.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
    i remember this picture :) you posted it also when i posted the damage reflect idea. but yeah, i would like to be able to place whips like that, without WASTING the resources
  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1879805:date=Oct 13 2011, 08:36 PM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Oct 13 2011, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to see the Whip become the "bouncers" that block doorways. They could use more health, as right now, one Marine can easily kill a Whip in 5 seconds with little fear of retaliation.

    <a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/ns22011072116165105.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/5200/ns22011072116165105.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Good idea.
    It would make the whips useful for area denial. Whips would also be more useful if they could knock jetpack marines to the ground.
  • Evil_bOb1Evil_bOb1 Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1879803:date=Oct 13 2011, 05:28 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Oct 13 2011, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879803"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a smart marine will bounce his nades elsewhere to hurt the whip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If it makes marines smarter I think it is a good idea ;)
  • TimTim Join Date: 2011-07-24 Member: 111958Members
    edited October 2011
    I do like the idea but I think it'd definitely be pretty overpowered without some additional balances.
    Whips in general need a buff with more health and need to be take less damage due to not being on infection.

    They should knock marines back to prevent access to certain areas, the grenades idea might work if it's a chance based deflection (40% or so)
    It'd make the flamethrower and standard weapons more desirable end-game as well as encourage whip placement. With the inclusion of HMG's the whip would be no problem and would encourage further variety in marine weapon rushes.

    Currently the only thing I practically use them for is to stop a marine crouching at the back of a hive. Other than that I use them as a joke rush during long stalemates.

    It'd make the whip more practical for restricting access which could be cleared at a later point in the game, as well as providing a couple of real roles for the whip.

    Edit:
    On a side note, bouncing the grenades off the walls should be an intended counter.
    The whips should also deflect the grenades away from other alien structures so they don't end up bouncing them into the hive!
  • KurrineKurrine Join Date: 2010-07-03 Member: 72235Members
    edited October 2011
    If this were to be added I still think whips should catch grenades, taking reduced damage (just throwing a number out: 50%) and sparing the structures/players around it.
  • CygoneCygone Join Date: 2011-05-29 Member: 101528Members
    I like the idea, how about a 40% change to deflect nade and 'toss' it 20yrds in another direction? not just back at the marine that fired it, so possibly towards teh hive, would certaintly make placement of the structure alittle more thoughtfull and we wont just end up with a map full of whips.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1879843:date=Oct 14 2011, 09:43 AM:name=Cygone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cygone @ Oct 14 2011, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea, how about a 40% change to deflect nade and 'toss' it 20yrds in another direction? not just back at the marine that fired it, so possibly towards teh hive, would certaintly make placement of the structure alittle more thoughtfull and we wont just end up with a map full of whips.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It just flings the grenade away from itself, so it has no smarts. You can (as currently written) use it to hit other alien structures if the geometry is right.
  • CygoneCygone Join Date: 2011-05-29 Member: 101528Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1879844:date=Oct 14 2011, 08:47 AM:name=matso)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matso @ Oct 14 2011, 08:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879844"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It just flings the grenade away from itself, so it has no smarts. You can (as currently written) use it to hit other alien structures if the geometry is right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    +1 then.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Yeah the Whip looks as if is only interested in protecting itself from the grenade. It would be interesting to watch a cluster of Whips play "hot potato". :P
  • gorge.ousgorge.ous Join Date: 2011-01-07 Member: 76481Members
    edited October 2011
    Thats an awesome idea! Especially since it can counter the so hated gren spam.
    Of course the whip is already a denial structure but it is useless as marines simply stay back, spam grenades and kill several structures at once because of the AOE damage. Currently its simply wasted ressources, at least most of the time. Giving the whip the ability to stop grenades gives the alien more time to react.

    Problem is: Aliens already have stronger defenses then Marines currently. Somehow gameplay "changed" as Aliens now seem to be able to play a better defensive tactic then marines can with hyras, whips, crag and shade (leaving hydras out here as they are only "meatshields"). Marines only have sentries and those are only effective in larger groups and lack the punch to be effective in lategame.
  • CygoneCygone Join Date: 2011-05-29 Member: 101528Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1879857:date=Oct 14 2011, 11:04 AM:name=gorge.ous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gorge.ous @ Oct 14 2011, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats an awesome idea! Especially since it can counter the so hated gren spam.
    Of course the whip is already a denial structure but it is useless as marines simply stay back, spam grenades and kill several structures at once because of the AOE damage. Currently its simply wasted ressources, at least most of the time. Giving the whip the ability to stop grenades gives the alien more time to react.

    Problem is: Aliens already have stronger defenses then Marines currently. Somehow gameplay "changed" as Aliens now seem to be able to play a better defensive tactic then marines can with hyras, whips, crag and shade (leaving hydras out here as they are only "meatshields"). Marines only have sentries and those are only effective in larger groups and lack the punch to be effective in lategame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm guessing thats because of the lack of 360deg rotation on the NS2 Marine turrets
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
    i fully support this idea. matso is a genius! :D
  • MiniH0wieMiniH0wie Join Date: 2007-11-25 Member: 63013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1879857:date=Oct 14 2011, 05:04 AM:name=gorge.ous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gorge.ous @ Oct 14 2011, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Problem is: Aliens already have stronger defenses then Marines currently. Somehow gameplay "changed" as Aliens now seem to be able to play a better defensive tactic then marines can with hyras, whips, crag and shade (leaving hydras out here as they are only "meatshields"). Marines only have sentries and those are only effective in larger groups and lack the punch to be effective in lategame.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Really? I don't see it that way at all.
    A group of marines with a few GLs can whip out an Alien defense pretty quickly usually due to the fact that they can stay out of harms way while lobing gernades into the area.
    But aliens (Skulks & Fades) have to get close and personal to take out sentries and other buildings. Although (Gorges & Lerks) have some opportunities to attack them from afar without getting shot but it takes much longer for them to destroy sentries because usually you only have one lerk or gorge attacking one sentry. The time it takes for one GL marine to take out one or more hydras is far shorter than one lerk/gorge taking out one sentry.
  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Members
    For the whip-grenade sound, how about using the "crack" sound of a baseball bat hitting a ball? A wood bat on a hardball would prob be a great starting point.
  • subshadowsubshadow Join Date: 2003-04-21 Member: 15710Members
    Would love to see 2 whips keeping heliport hive save from grenades.

    How about a tradeoff?
    Small whip deflects grenades, mature whips throw acid balls.
    And the deflecting throws the grenade back at rougly the same angle (as seen from top-down) as it entered the whips range.
  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Members, Constellation
    Cute ...and I do think the Whip needs more play

    But people would work around it in a second.
    Bounce it off the ceiling.

    Good discussion though.
    The Whip need more play and the ARC is lonely.
  • gorge.ousgorge.ous Join Date: 2011-01-07 Member: 76481Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1879886:date=Oct 14 2011, 03:34 PM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Oct 14 2011, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1879886"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? I don't see it that way at all.
    A group of marines with a few GLs can whip out an Alien defense pretty quickly usually due to the fact that they can stay out of harms way while lobing gernades into the area.
    But aliens (Skulks & Fades) have to get close and personal to take out sentries and other buildings. Although (Gorges & Lerks) have some opportunities to attack them from afar without getting shot but it takes much longer for them to destroy sentries because usually you only have one lerk or gorge attacking one sentry. The time it takes for one GL marine to take out one or more hydras is far shorter than one lerk/gorge taking out one sentry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sure, but this is more of an issue with the Grenade Launcher being ridiculous strong in breaking defenses. And that would be where the whip idea comes in. Problem then would be that the only effective way to break those would be the ARC which is more of a "lategame" tec while Aliens can plant defensive structures everywhere, dening the Marines enough ressources to push ARCs fast.

    The problem with sentries (I would say) is not that they cannot deny areas for skulks early on (they really can), its more that they become useless in late game as they can no longer deny entry to areas to fades, lerks or fully upgraded skulks. So its often not a problem that they take long to be taken down, as it is often no problem to get into their back. Hydras etc still do their job perfectly to Marines. You cannot pass that area before cleaning it out. Which takes time and alerts the alien team. For a upgraded skulk, lerk or fade its often no problem to rush into marine base and to cause havoc, even if there are sentries "blocking" the path. Aliens simply seem to ignore sentries in lategame.
    I dont know why that is the case but I suppose that sentry damage does not scale very well with alien armor upgrades.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2011
    Whip attack ROF and DPS also need some big buffs. They aren't exactly as deadly to Marines as Sentries are to Skulks.


    (I'm going off topic here)

    The trouble with Sentries is, they're very weak in ones or pairs, but deal too much damage when Marines can manage to mass them in one area.

    Hopefully Onos will be able to take care of Sentry farms to deter such strategies (if they're not crippled by Flamethrowers). However, Sentries will remain to be weak in small numbers.

    Perhaps the down time for (commander manually) changing Sentry facing could be reduced, to increase the effectiveness of Sentries.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    I loved the idea when it first came up, and I still love it now. The added tactical consideration of grenade-bouncing is a nice touch, too.
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Members
    the problem with turrets, they're EVERYWHERE.
    In ns1 they were very costly because you needed turret factory which limited turrets build range, and created a very costly process.
    Now you just build turrets everywhere, the costs for turrets must be increased to compensate for not building turret factory, and increased by a lot more.
    More expensive turrets will be placed in more economical places rather then spammed throughout the whole room.

    as for whips, they require long range weapon at current state they die under 5 seconds.

    the idea if whips (in my mind) whips would be rooted under the infestation, when marines comes within range, it comes out to attack them. if marines moves away, the whip would go back under the infestation. Scan would reveal its location, and killing the power nodes which would remove the infestation. this would somewhat help the whip survival rate but it will not be enough because this chamber must have long range weapon, not something you upgrade or research.
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