running leap should be a tier 1 upgrade
Tig
Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
in basic <b>tier one</b> gameplay, marines can get shotties, but skulks really have nothing to counter.
my suggestion is to move running leap to a tier one upgrade but make it cost 15 carbon instead of 5 carbon so that it mirrors shotguns.
counter argument: aliens can always go lerk.
counter to counter argument: the game is too laggy in its current state for the lerk to be super effective against shotguns (i'm referring to sniper spike)
anybody think this would be gamebreaking?
my suggestion is to move running leap to a tier one upgrade but make it cost 15 carbon instead of 5 carbon so that it mirrors shotguns.
counter argument: aliens can always go lerk.
counter to counter argument: the game is too laggy in its current state for the lerk to be super effective against shotguns (i'm referring to sniper spike)
anybody think this would be gamebreaking?
Comments
my suggestion is to move running leap to a tier one upgrade but make it cost 15 carbon instead of 5 carbon so that it mirrors shotguns.
counter argument: aliens can always go lerk.
counter to counter argument: the game is too laggy in its current state for the lerk to be super effective against shotguns (i'm referring to sniper spike)
anybody think this would be gamebreaking?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your counter-to-counter-argument is moot. Suggesting changes to one thing due to another's laggy implementation is extremely short-sighted. Their top priority right now is to get all the features in and working properly.
The only reason I see to let skulks have leap as tier 1, is to let ppl have high agility in the first place, which is a good reason if you ask me. Its just that it would not be very good gameplay wise :P
didn't know you were UWE's rep. try to be constructive or troll elsewhere.
I never claimed to be. That much is obvious just from observing the development (and from comments from the devs). I am being constructive by saying that what you are proposing is counter-productive to making any progress in the game.
Christ, everyone is so damned sensitive on these forums...
So now the skulk movement will not be limited, he can freely use mini-leap while moving or jumping but the distance of the leap would depend if he has the upgrade or not. pretty mind blowing how simple it is, which hasn't been done yet.
also, skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum would actually help leap better. Right now leaping in the straight line only isn't so appealing.
So now the skulk movement will not be limited, he can freely use mini-leap while moving or jumping but the distance of the leap would depend if he has the upgrade or not. pretty mind blowing how simple it is, which hasn't been done yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WTH is mini-leap?
its that thing you try to do mid flight only to realize what happened back in respawn.
The basic, limited leap all Skulks have. But it requires you to be not moving to use it, making it close to useless at this point except to get to weird vent entrances.
While Tig makes a decent argument, I'm cautionary about doing serious balance tweaking until all the elements are in the game and performance is fixed. NS1 we didn't have an issue with shotties in Teir1, we shouldn't have one once Lerks are useful and SKulks learn to hide properly.
Although I would like to see Running Leap dealing minor damage (20?) on contact (maybe then it would warrant to be a tier 2 research).
Hopefully Lerks and Crag Umbra will be able to counter Shotgun at tier 1 when the game is balanced.
Lerks currently bump into walls and ceiling way too often when flying. On top of that, because Marines have sprint, it is too easy for marines to catch Lerks.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> for 20(?) damage with Running Leap (Maybe an upgrade allows this? Tier 2?)
I also think that shotgun damage to should go down. 1 shotgun pellet does 20 damage and the shotgun fires 10(?) pellets resulting in 200 max damage. I think that this should be decreased to 150 (Maybe lower) resulting in 15 damage per pellet.
Anyways....some opinions
First off, i think leap could be a little bit more interesting that just flinging yourself at marines....
1. Landing the leap attack shouldn't be really easy and could do something interesting if you do.. like a little bit of a knock back in the direction it came from(given you have leaped from at least a certain distance so you couldn't do it from 2 feet away).. like 2 steps.. not huge.. but i think it might feel good in the game. (wouldnt work on exo marines and possible disruption of airborne marines with jetpacks....picking off jetpacks with skulks sounds kind of awesome.)
2. Sort of l4deady but damage determined by how far you traveled with the leap before hitting the target with a damage cap of course.
-Leap as a starting ability, too much, i wouldn't mind it at tier 1... resource cost would have to depend on its effectiveness
-Doing damage, i want to say yes to this but in moderation, if it exceeded 25 damage id be concerned
Skulks feel a little to slow to me right now...with that being said...
If you lower movement speed.
1.Makes it easier for skulks to land attacks
2.Lowers ability to avoid damage.
Increasing speed...
1. Makes it harder to land attacks
2. Increases ability to avoid damage
-also think it raises the skill cap in a way... it does make it harder to land attacks but in a positive way.
Giving Leap a significant damage for itself is not the answer since you should be using it in conjunction with Bite. Giving Leap and auto-bite has been discussed heavily and personally I dislike it since players should learn to time their bites.
There have also been talk of Leap turning into a L4D Hunter grapple/pin, and I personally hate punishing rambos so strongly in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1836593:date=Mar 9 2011, 11:44 AM:name=xVisions)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xVisions @ Mar 9 2011, 11:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you lower movement speed.
1.Makes it easier for skulks to land attacks
2.Lowers ability to avoid damage.
Increasing speed...
1. Makes it harder to land attacks
2. Increases ability to avoid damage
-also think it raises the skill cap in a way... it does make it harder to land attacks but in a positive way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Higher movement speed makes it way easier to land attacks since the enemy Marine doesn't move as far by the time you get to him. Not to mention hit-and-runs are more powerful, closing distances, getting away, map control, and a host of other amazing advantages.
agreed.
i don't like people coming into a thread i create and acting like i don't know what's going on with the game, the dev team, or the community. i've actively participated in every build since alpha and tried to be constructive in every thread. i've logged a ton of hours, bug reported, made icons (as you know), and worked on a custom map.
it wasn't his disagreement with what i wrote, it was his condescending tone.
I agree with this. I liked the original version in which mini-leap just didn't go as far as the researched version; This allowed you to use it in dire situations in which you needed to close a small distance quickly or had to get behind some sort of cover quickly, but it kept skulks from being overpowered in tier 1. Current version is inadequate and feels "bugged and broken" to new players causing unneeded confusion. It needs tweaking for sure.
But to make the upgrade better, I agree that the researched leap, or what I'll call full leap, should have a damage and and maybe a tiny push back. I'm not sure with it being tier 1 or tier 2 once it has these advantages. I would have to see it implemented and get a chance to play with the changes to give proper suggestions on the tier it needs to be in.
on a side note, skulks, unlike in ns1, don't seem to be able to scale properly with the marine tier upgrades. once they get shotguns skulks become far less affective, and once they get tier 2 equipment skulks are almost completely useless. Part of this is a lack of any real good upgrades to help them scale better; I hope this is fixed along with the current leap. Maybe allow some sort of armor upgrade, as in NS1 carapace, to help mitigate the flamethrower because of the extra bone plating; things like this would help a huge amount in keeping the skulks useful throughout the game.
it wasn't his disagreement with what i wrote, it was his condescending tone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you can't really convey tone over the internet, but I meant no disrespect. It wasn't intended to be condescending, just direct.
I would love a skulk pin. That would be awesome.
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Maybe it could be something like the Dog in COD (I don't like COD but this is not a bad idea), but instead of it being like the dog where if you don't press knife properly you die, maybe it could be a bit of a button bash allowing those rambo marines to have some chance.
I don't understand the next part though:
"I personally hate punishing rambos"
Does this mean you hate killing people who go rambo?
It works with the hunter in L4D because L4D is, at its core, essentially a cooperative game, rather than a competitive game - even when you have PvP (Player vs Player). PvP in L4D's case is in fact PvE (Player vs Environment), but with some players playing part of the hostile environment.
Natural Selection on the other hand is purely competitive. (It's in the name.)
I do support running leap as a tier 1 upgrade, but I would also hope this comes with a removal of mini-leap which is almost useless even for its intended purpose (getting to certain hard to reach areas).
Until the performance issues are fixed you can't judge 'balance', as you don't have the full playing experience available to you.
Any form of balancing for the purposes of playing a game at a much lower experience or not as intended is not just gamebreaking but a waste of developer time.
It's nice to be enthusiastic and all, although I'd wait to see how the full intended experience is before you mess around with everything.
Where as it is still bit warpy, its pretty playable for me. I don't think? game performance is a excuse for most balance issues? I could be wrong i just can't think of many specific examples.. other than movement speed and structure health amounts (since server capacity is bit low)
i thought about making some videos just for fun... i mean im no NS2HD but lol, always thought it would be fun. Might do it today? we will see !
LETS PUMP SOME FUN INTO NS2!!! Come on... thats why we play and love games.. FUN
"I personally hate punishing rambos"
Does this mean you hate killing people who go rambo?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going rambo, while dangerous in NS1, should still be a valid tactic with no perfect counter. Giving Skulks a pounce that locks the Marine and effectively kills them for free is a perfect hard counter, and even worse takes away control from the player, which has been shown numerous times to piss people off (even in DotA/HoN/LoL, and especially in competitive games). As Harimau has already pointed out, it only works in L4D because that is a co-op game where leaving the group is intentionally nearly impossible. NS1 is not that sort of game.
In NS1 I wrote a comm guide and others agreed: IN a typical positioning, vanilla Skulk versus Marine the skulk has the advantage. However, pair two Marines together and they can take on 2 skulks. Marines in groups grow faster than Aliens in groups. However, 1v1 and 2v2 shouldn't be determined purely by number of players, but also use of environment, skills, positioning, equipment/upgrades, and so much more. Making the SKulk Leap have a pounce that disables the solo Marine tilts the dynamic too far.
I don't mind if skulks leap disrupts movement slightly or sends a jetpacker spinning for a tiny bit but definitely not pinning a marine down.
-Im good with onos devour though, different sorta thing.
I don't mind if skulks leap disrupts movement slightly or sends a jetpacker spinning for a tiny bit but definitely not pinning a marine down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
Pinning down makes a Tier 1 skulk effective against a Tier 3 Marine. That is unfair.
I think the skulks leap should:
-Deal damage
-Disrupt movement of marine
-Knocks Jet-packer (Makes them fall to the ground/sends them spinning)
Skulks leap also needs to be tweaked as:
-Skulks leap doesn't work that well on walls and ceilings
-Tier 2 is too long for running leap
I also think running leap should be a Tier 1 upgrade because it is a good counter to shotguns (Vice versa). Shotguns are tier 1. Running leap should be tier 1.
The only reason I see to let skulks have leap as tier 1, is to let ppl have high agility in the first place, which is a good reason if you ask me. Its just that it would not be very good gameplay wise :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"evade their bullets"?
there were a LOT of people that had near perfect aim in ns1, evade their bullets is not a valid solution
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All I can really say is, we know about many of these issues, and will be dealing with them before release. Keep in mind, much of what is in there now is just the basics to get it all working, and we've been <b>spending a lot of time on performance optimizations, game stability, and bug fixes lately. But we fully intend to get back to the aliens</b> and rework/flesh out/improve their movement and abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense Tig but you're kind of an ass for lashing out at people for no reason.
edit: pardon my rudeness, I am sure someone who has been in alpha <i>AND</i> made maps can understand the importance of creating a constructive and non-hostile community environment; even in the NS mod community, if you can imagine that
The only reason I see to let skulks have leap as tier 1, is to let ppl have high agility in the first place, which is a good reason if you ask me. Its just that it would not be very good gameplay wise :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL we had this discussion about ease of RT control when one guy said "you counter this by cunning and strategy". No, in this early stage balance issues are meant to be fixed. When the playing field is more level (yes each team will still have their own strengths and weaknesses) <u>then</u> strategy comes into play.
And realistically shotgun seems to be more the counter to ambush than the other way around.