<!--quoteo(post=1835801:date=Mar 3 2011, 01:24 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 3 2011, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835801"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you mean you would strafe (say) left, and then start turning left (and continuously doing so)? Because otherwise strafing and looking at the same direction, at the same time, is kind of impossible, seeing as strafe is relative to where you are looking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes basically. It was really tricky to master at first. If you happen to have either HL1, TFC, NS1 (in the readyroom/aliens), or even CS (although much more tricky to maintain), it can be done as follows:
-bind mwheeldown +jump (not required but really helps) -start off running forward -jump straight ahead but as soon as you have left the ground hold strafe either left or right and slowly move your mouse in the direction you chose to strafe. -hit jump as soon as you land and repeat the previous step in either direction again to gain/maintain a little extra velocity
Easiest way to practice is in circles always choosing the same direction when you jump. Alternate left and right to bhop. This can work backwards or even sideways. Sideways bhop: start off strafing, then use either forward or back instead of left and right (still need to use the mouse in combination).
I was actually taught on a CS server running an awp map with 0 gravity. It is easiest to learn this way. You jump into the air and float practicing what I outlined above (without having to jump again). At first you might find yourself going nowhere but eventually it will make a lot of sense and allow you to get up to ridiculous speeds from 0 velocity in mid air. To learn the fastest using this method hold either left or right strafe and just keep moving the mouse in the same direction never letting go of the strafe. You will do circles in the air but will keep getting faster and faster until you stop holding strafe at which point you will fling in whatever direction you were going at the time.
The reason so many embrace bhopping is because it isn't just some simple trick, it actually requires practice and allows experienced players to often outperform others; a form of positive feedback especially for the hardcore gamer or one who is making an effort to learn. Not sure how a skill-based movement system would work in NS2 unless it's bhopping again, or maybe some kind of grappling web or something (the system if ever added will probably only be for aliens).
<!--quoteo(post=1835815:date=Mar 3 2011, 01:00 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 3 2011, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure how a skill-based movement system would work in NS2 unless it's bhopping again, or maybe some kind of grappling web or something (the system if ever added will probably only be for aliens).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Fades current blink is a good example. Just teleport from A to B is simple... but catch a marine on the run with blink or using blink in battle without loosing orientation is tricky and requires practise and skill.
And as you can see in many posts in this forum, in general it is the same as bunnyhop. Some players like it, others complain bacause it's "broken" or "to difficult" and so on.
I bet the reaction would be the same, no matter what kind of skillbased movement UWE comes up with.
^ the current fade blink system is a joke, a rather cheap gimmick, great special effects but isn't practical in combat at all. They simply cannot catch moving targets if their life depended on it, and many cases it usually does. The new fade is nothing more than the mini-onos, you "blink" into an area, and chases marines on foot, and blink away when marines outrun you, which happens pretty often. Fade's are only good in closed narrow hallways, where marines cannot run away since they cannot catch moving targets. aside from blinding effect blink offers, poor aiming system and cannot get into vents and never ending double clicking, fade's are beyond slow.
skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum is badly needed in the game. general movement especially for the aliens feels way too restricted.
<!--quoteo(post=1835820:date=Mar 3 2011, 08:33 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 3 2011, 08:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->^ the current fade blink system is a joke, a rather cheap gimmick, great special effects but isn't practical in combat at all. They simply cannot catch moving targets if their life depended on it, and many cases it usually does. The new fade is nothing more than the mini-onos, you "blink" into an area, and chases marines on foot, and blink away when marines outrun you, which happens pretty often. Fade's are only good in closed narrow hallways, where marines cannot run away since they cannot catch moving targets. aside from blinding effect blink offers, poor aiming system and cannot get into vents and never ending double clicking, fade's are beyond slow.
skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum is badly needed in the game. general movement especially for the aliens feels way too restricted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what you are doing, but I rarely have trouble chasing down a marine with blink. It is excellent for retreating, chasing, and disorienting the enemy. Common practice when you hear the blink noise is to look behind you, so a good Fade player will blink to the side, or somewhere else the marine can't see, and launch a mini-surprise attack from the new location.
I do agree that not being able to get in vents with it is a little sucky, but I don't even know if a Fade could fit in a vent at ground level anyway, so I don't take too much issue with it at this point in the game's development.
The people that use it to engage and disengage melee usually get shot up to ###### by a shotgun. You talk about skill based movement, and how bunnyhoping is the only example you have seen, but then refuse to acknowledge that there can be some skill to the Fade blinking if you use tactics and well aimed blinking.
<!--quoteo(post=1835820:date=Mar 3 2011, 01:33 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 3 2011, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...) The current fade blink system is a joke, a rather cheap gimmick, great special effects but isn't practical in combat at all. (...) skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum is badly needed in the game. general movement especially for the aliens feels way too restricted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1835831:date=Mar 3 2011, 02:13 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 3 2011, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...) I rarely have trouble chasing down a marine with blink. It is excellent for retreating, chasing, and disorienting the enemy. Common practice when you hear the blink noise is to look behind you, so a good Fade player will blink to the side, or somewhere else the marine can't see, and launch a mini-surprise attack from the new location. (...)
that there can be some skill to the Fade blinking if you use tactics and well aimed blinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no problem "chasing" marines at all. my whole point was how badly the class was crippled from what it used to be. They took battlefield class and turned it into "ambush" class. Not being able to catch MOVING targets is big design flaw, not sure if you noticed this at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1835834:date=Mar 3 2011, 09:31 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 3 2011, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835834"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no problem "chasing" marines at all... Not being able to catch MOVING targets is big design flaw...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, by "chase" I meant "chase and eliminate with extreme prejudice". It really isn't that hard. A marine running away is usually only concerned with getting away. Because of this, I have done some well timed blinks and then hit the cowardly marine with a secondary attack as he runs past.
EDIT: As for it being a "battlefield" class in NS1, I really do not remember it being as powerful as you seem to think. At least not in NS_ mode. Besides, it isn't finished yet. Once we have everything in (abilities and all) we can only then really tell if the Fade needs changing.
In the interest of fairness, I wanted to say that b166 is a significant improvement in just about all areas - minus the still existing bugs. D.I. is quite temperamental and building structures on both TSA and Kharaa still isn't perfect.
But this is the first patch that by and large I can even remotely say the game is "playable". Good stuff, and hopefully there is a snowball effect where future patches come just as quickly and fix just as much.
<!--quoteo(post=1835838:date=Mar 3 2011, 11:02 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 3 2011, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, by "chase" I meant "chase and eliminate with extreme prejudice". It really isn't that hard. A marine running away is usually only concerned with getting away. Because of this, I have done some well timed blinks and then hit the cowardly marine with a secondary attack as he runs past.
EDIT: As for it being a "battlefield" class in NS1, I really do not remember it being as powerful as you seem to think. At least not in NS_ mode. Besides, it isn't finished yet. Once we have everything in (abilities and all) we can only then really tell if the Fade needs changing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assure you if you face an experienced player who realizes sprint outruns the fade, he would easily kite you. And just because the marine runs, doesn't always mean he cares about getting away, he's very aware you cannot catching MOVING target. As for you saying you can hit cowardly marine with secondary attack, only way this would happen if he actually faints or stops moving all together.
If you played ns1, and do not see any difference between ns1 fade and current gimmick, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about, i'm sorry. NS1 fade was battlefield class, just like the onos was, he can jump into serious combat fights and create serious blows to the enemy, and be out of combat in split of a second. Also, being able to catch moving targets such as jetpackers, or running away marines, because of his ability to close the gap quickly between himself and the marine, was just amazing.
some may of not liked his blink ability because it was long jump forward, much of this discussed but it was practical solution, simple and effective. But now, the class is turned into a weak chasing marines on foot ambush class. You can write, and can say "eliminate with extreme prejudice" you basically making something sound good which doesn't change how bad something actually is n reality.
I've already made few ideas how to fix this problem. One of them was to keep the current blink fade has but also bring back ns1 blink, but rename it to something else. So the fade will have primary ambush blink while still having secondary blink to be able to close the gap needed to catching moving targets. You seriously need to realize how big of an issue it is. developers crippled the class with fancy ideas that worked only on paper but more practical, simple answer is needed.
lets not forget we need to bring back skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum from ns1!!
While I think the "skill-based movement" he's speaking of was and is a not actually that great a gimmick, I do agree about bringing back blink classic as a another fade ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1835792:date=Mar 4 2011, 01:13 AM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 4 2011, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Air control in HL1 was a true skill and something people wouldn't just pick up on immediately. The more experienced players became quite comfortable with an already rather fluid movement system. Games like TFC had entire maps devoted strictly to players who understood the concept (anyone remember conc maps?) Bunnyhopping also falls into this catagory if combined with successive jumps (often using mwheeldown or something).
Since NS was on the HL engine people who had enough skill to take full advantage of the movement mechanics would be at an advantage (as any experienced player should feel). It gave people something to learn and get better at other than point and shoot (plenty of other games enforce this). Because of the potential for abuse as a marine they gave a velocity slowdown on land not a <b>gimmicky reduced jump height</b>. This did still allow the marine to exercise air control however when he jumped, he can keep jumping up and down if he wants (so can I) but hes gonna be just about jumping in place once he goes for the 2nd jump (and no one complained about this in NS1). I would assume the same will be done in NS2 eventually <i>so we can stop proposing more marine nerfs and worry more about how the skulk has been crippled and how to improve it</i>.
*It seems many people still don't understand what air control/skill base movement used to be (if you know then this isn't aimed at you). In HL1 it was basically jump, hold strafe in a direction and look towards that direction and you will curve toward where you are going at a slightly increasing speed. If you are playing a game that didn't nerf landing velocity you could keep doing this to get moving faster than just running around would allow, aka bunnyhopping, which obviously a marine shouldn't do (but can't so no worries).
TLDR >> If any nerfs should be applied to the marine it would be a velocity slowdown on land like NS1 did and just about every other shooter game that isn't pure arcade style. If anything we should be revisiting the nerfs that the aliens have received and help improve them to achieve balance, not worsen the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> On the contrary, bunnyhopping and this air strafe acceleration are gimmicky.
<b>luns</b> always makes me laugh. he tries so hard, pretending that by repeating himself so much (seriously, have a look at his posts - they are often word-for-word repetitions) he's going to gain developer support. oh well, some people aren't blessed with creativity.
Also, marine sprint-retreat is a valid tactic. Stop being so hung-up over your kdr. If you're in it for the kills and not the win, then play Combat. Ask MCMLXXXIV to remove sprint - I think that's actually a good idea, considering the smaller maps.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2011
What NS2, and all competitive game needs, is consistency. For example, you cannot play a serious game of soccer, tennis, basketball, or ping pong without an even and leveled court/ground. The ball would bounce off the ground unpredictably.
In NS2, accurate aiming against moving targets is fundamental. The game cannot be systematically balanced if hitting a target depends heavily on luck. Thus maximum movement speed have to be enforced per class, so there movement is predictable to a degree. Allowing both teams to bunnyhop adds too many variables into the game. That is why bunnyhopping (which is a speed exploit) should NOT be included in NS2.
As for air acceleration, it does exist in NS2. Try jumping left/right while holding the opposite movement key, and you can feel a noticable difference in velocity. It is just not as absurdly high like in NS1. Too much air allows excessively non-linear movement make client side "teleporting/warping" worse, and makes the game a lot less enjoyable for those with higher ping (anyone played WoW with 500+ ping?).
Jumping and strafing already add a good amount of unpredictability to alien and marine movement.
Some players may feel this "dumbs down" NS2, but I believe all you NS players love NS for its depth of team tactics and strategies, rather than purely a match of reflexes balanced around 1v1. Else we would have simply stuck to playing Quake.
<b>luns</b> does have a point though: Fade Blink is difficult to use currently, due to the inconsistent aiming system. Go on, try aiming at a marine or structure, adjust your aim up and down, and watch the ghost Fade hop all over the place. Chasing a running marine feels like chasing a fly with an automobile. Teleporting Blink may be fast, but offers poor precise control. There is an annoying Blink bug where, if you aim directly at a player's model, Blink will not work, but still costs energy.
<!--quoteo(post=1835892:date=Mar 3 2011, 11:29 PM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 3 2011, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the contrary, bunnyhopping and this air strafe acceleration are gimmicky.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Reduced jump height is gimmicky. Generally velocity slowdown almost always gets used instead when players land from any height other than a couple stairs tall (actually make sense too). Since airstrafe accel and one of the tricks it provides, bunnyhopping, are not in this game and I did not propose they should be then what was the point of quoting my entire post and then making that statement? I'm against gimmicky stuff in this game and I'll repeat reduced jump height is just a bad idea considering the alternative and what was tried and true even in NS1... (and so many other games and lets not start a NS2 needs to be different now because this is practically trivial)
And by the way, luns repeats himself because he tends to be right, clearly knows the mechanics of NS1 and it seems many don't. I can't believe the amount of misinformation that gets posted on some of these topics.. I could see why he would want to correct people...
Something that I feel is awkward with the new fade blink is that sometimes you have to be in a specific position to get a good angle with the blink. If you're too far away from a certain corner, or don't have the correct vantage point you're really limited on where you can go with that blink, from that starting position. It forces you have to walk to the spot you need to be, then blink from there.
I think fade movement would be way more interesting if we could combine or use both the old and new blink. Imagine if the fade was allowed to use the old blink for say a second or two. You would be able to get way better angles with the teleport. Not to mention he would be able to quickly move into a group of marines without teleporting, or could catch up to a moving target like previously.
The fade could "old blink" up into the air, or around a corner, etc. And from that vantage point, use the teleport. I would be so down to replace the current 2nd ability with something that lets the fade move better.
<!--quoteo(post=1835845:date=Mar 3 2011, 05:38 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 3 2011, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you played ns1, and do not see any difference between ns1 fade and current gimmick, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about, i'm sorry. [...] You seriously need to realize how big of an issue it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Luns, I normally agree with most of your posts, but it is kind of arrogant (at the very least rude) to say that someone who does not share your opinion (and that is, your opinion) "doesn't know what they're talking about."
<!--quoteo(post=1835845:date=Mar 3 2011, 05:38 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 3 2011, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already made few ideas how to fix this problem. One of them was to keep the current blink fade has but also bring back ns1 blink, but rename it to something else. So the fade will have primary ambush blink while still having secondary blink to be able to close the gap needed to catching moving targets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not make "Movement Special" (Shift) a toned down version of the old blink that only covers a relatively short distance by comparison to blink (or in other words, a short sprint or lunge)?
your shift idea actually might be good place to add the old blink (it needs to be renamed though), while the fade is grounded he can freely jump forward as he did in ns1, but in more ambush stalking mode, he can use his primary blink, right clicking. Thus giving him an ability to be sneaky, and finally catch moving targets, isn't bad at all. Although shift key can easily change to some other key which can be easily pushed while playing.
although primary blink now, needs to be reduced to one click somehow, the double clicking is a slow process, and in combat every second counts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason so many embrace bhopping is because it isn't just some simple trick, it actually requires practice and allows experienced players to often outperform others; a form of positive feedback especially for the hardcore gamer or one who is making an effort to learn. Not sure how a skill-based movement system would work in NS2 unless it's bhopping again, or maybe some kind of grappling web or something (the system if ever added will probably only be for aliens).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bhop is a mini-game. In all seriousness. If not for the speed and competitive advantage that it would give a practiced player, it was fun when you're moving from point A to B, especially if there is a lack of combat in between. Helped to relieve the plain old "running."
Since we are talking air curve (/acceleration/control) here, could someone explain to me the exact details of it in NS2. With my FPS I can see some difference in the outcome of leaps, but there's absolutely no way to control it, not to speak of forming a proper understanding on how it works.
So...
How do you use it? Does holding forward key affect it and ect?
How controllable is it? Can you actually take corners with it or so?
Is it FPS dependand?
Any idea how the system works, does your forward speed actually increase with the curve?
I can probably understand it easier if you can somehow explain it related to NS1 physics, but any kind of description is highly appreciated.
Regarding bhopping: Valuation of your opponent and yourself (resources, health, etc) and strategy should be key elements to NS2, not mastery of unintuitive button presses. I got into NS because strategy and cooperation was more important than individual player skill and good ping. I'm all for "easy to learn, hard to master" systems, but when the learning curve is too steep (and in some cases impossible to climb) you're no longer establishing skill brackets, you're splintering the player base. There are plenty of games that breed competitive ######, and very few that are able to encourage true player cooperation, so I tend to want NS2 to be the latter.
<!--quoteo(post=1836213:date=Mar 6 2011, 02:05 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 6 2011, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836213"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding bhopping: Valuation of your opponent and yourself (resources, health, etc) and strategy should be key elements to NS2, not mastery of unintuitive button presses. I got into NS because strategy and cooperation was more important than individual player skill and good ping. I'm all for "easy to learn, hard to master" systems, but when the learning curve is too steep (and in some cases impossible to climb) you're no longer establishing skill brackets, you're splintering the player base. There are plenty of games that breed competitive ######, and very few that are able to encourage true player cooperation, so I tend to want NS2 to be the latter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree, NS1 still had a large spectrum of skilled players. The players that could hold their own could go get stuff done for the commander would be the pressure team. The players that where just at an OK skill level would go out in groups of 2 or 3 and get cover main points of the map. And the really crappy players would be mainly builders.
Individual skill is much needed to win the game and is what made me love NS1. The player with the most individual skill is really the one that communicates with the commander the most, the commander cares about them and spams them with meds and ammo because he is actually worth the res. The best player is also the one who would get the best gun in NS1. (award for hard work)
Taking away or nurfing individual skill would just hurt the game.
Bhoping brought NS1 into another world of skill, and thats why people practiced and played NS1 as much as they did.. to increase their skill. (hard work)
as maker as ze_marinebhop, i know that bhoping was a huge part of NS1's success
<!--quoteo(post=1836219:date=Mar 6 2011, 08:03 PM:name=ZupE891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZupE891 @ Mar 6 2011, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhoping brought NS1 into another world of skill, and thats why people practiced and played NS1 as much as they did.. to increase their skill. (hard work) as maker as ze_marinebhop, i know that bhoping was a huge part of NS1's success<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhhh, why am I answering to a pro-bh-posting....?
Only reason I can think of, is to post my usual oppinion in the hope that "Constant dropping wears the stone..."
here we go:
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->BH = pogo-stick + rectum = ridiculous movement that kills any true immersion in a tactical-FPS-game<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=1836219:date=Mar 6 2011, 02:03 PM:name=ZupE891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZupE891 @ Mar 6 2011, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree, NS1 still had a large spectrum of skilled players. The players that could hold their own could go get stuff done for the commander would be the pressure team. The players that where just at an OK skill level would go out in groups of 2 or 3 and get cover main points of the map. And the really crappy players would be mainly builders.
Individual skill is much needed to win the game and is what made me love NS1. The player with the most individual skill is really the one that communicates with the commander the most, the commander cares about them and spams them with meds and ammo because he is actually worth the res. The best player is also the one who would get the best gun in NS1. (award for hard work)
Taking away or nurfing individual skill would just hurt the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what you're disagreeing with, but none of what you said contradicts what I said. I never said NS1 didn't have skilled players, or that I endorsed removing or nerfing skill, or that individual skill shouldn't be necessary or important, or that hard work shouldn't be rewarded. Yeah, the most skilled players are the ones that communicated with their comm and their team, and that is a skill that should be encouraged in a cooperative game, but the "skill" of increasing your movement speed by exploiting the physics of a game does nothing to promote cooperation or teamplay and creates a fracture between players that in some cases cannot be bridged.
<!--quoteo(post=1836219:date=Mar 6 2011, 02:03 PM:name=ZupE891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZupE891 @ Mar 6 2011, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhoping brought NS1 into another world of skill, and thats why people practiced and played NS1 as much as they did.. to increase their skill. (hard work)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One has nothing to do with the other. Yes people practice/play anything to get better at it (increase skill), but that doesn't mean that the inclusion of any/every skill is necessarily good regardless of it's function, difficulty and consequences.
Just to prove a point: If they made bhoping insanely more difficult to perform such that only 3 people in the world could EVER physically do it (meaning it isn't just a matter of learning how. but a physical limitation), would it be a feature, or a problem?
<!--quoteo(post=1836236:date=Mar 6 2011, 04:23 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 6 2011, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, the most skilled players are the ones that communicated with their comm and their team, and that is a skill that should be encouraged in a cooperative game<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That sounds more like an example of good strategy and not skill... just saying. I've seen plenty of highly cooperative players who are of no use just because they don't have skill.
The point that people are trying to make is the learning curve should be easy on game play elements but experienced players should be allowed to get good at the game and not just solely from their ability to communicate. A major part of the game is the FPS element let's not forget this. It can be real frustrating to get good at a game and have some noob kill you because of a nerf that was applied just to make the game easier.
<!--quoteo(post=1836236:date=Mar 6 2011, 09:23 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Mar 6 2011, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the "skill" of increasing your movement speed by exploiting the physics of a game does nothing to promote cooperation or teamplay and creates a fracture between players that in some cases cannot be bridged.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The way NS movement works, it promotes team coordination quite a bit. If you see a skulk bunnyhopping marines down purely due to individual skill the players were on way different leagues.
The way I see it, the NS1 skulk movement system gives skulk flexibilty. That flexibilty certainly rewards individual skill to an extend, but it also adds up to the teamwork a lot. Skulk can share the enemy fire, use cover and in general act as a pack because their movement is extremely precise, quick and adaptible. Without ability to react and adapt rapidly you're stuck with simply outnumbering your opponents instead of actually developing the teamwork further.
The bhop acceleration and predictable movement patters add teamplay details too. The acceleration means more options and challenges in timing rushes. Using a predictable movement pattern to gain extra speed means that you'll need someone to distract the opponent. Bhopping is also loud and very vulnerable if you get caught off guard, so you better have the communication and parasites in good use.
By all means encourage teamwork, but limiting individual possibilities and flexibility also limits player's ability to operate as a team member. I don't want a game where the game is decided by having more players in a fight than your opponent does.
<!--quoteo(post=1836247:date=Mar 6 2011, 06:13 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Mar 6 2011, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836247"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By all means encourage teamwork, but limiting individual possibilities and flexibility also limits player's ability to operate as a team member. I don't want a game where the game is decided by having more players in a fight than your opponent does.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If this is what you understood I was saying from that post, I'm just gonna shut up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->strategy and cooperation was more important than individual player skill and good ping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 'more important than' is not equal to 'only thing that's important'.
<!--quoteo(post=1835961:date=Mar 4 2011, 11:28 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 4 2011, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since airstrafe accel and one of the tricks it provides, bunnyhopping, are not in this game and I did not propose they should be then what was the point of quoting my entire post and then making that statement?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I will counter with: What was the point of explaining it if not supporting it? Or else what was the point of supporting it if not proposing it?
<!--quoteo(post=1836296:date=Mar 7 2011, 05:23 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Mar 7 2011, 05:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will counter with: What was the point of explaining it if not supporting it? Or else what was the point of supporting it if not proposing it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because so many people here complain about bhop and don't even really understand it at all. Most of these people also couldn't figure it out and so naturally took its opposition. It was tons of fun in the HL engine (for those who took the time and patience to learn vs complain out of ignorance) but I have a bit of a neutral stance on it since it was most likely unintentional. It also wasn't a huge advantage in battle and was more of a fun trick on the side when going from place to place. Not to mention if you tried to bhop right up to a marine he would probably kill you. It isn't like bhop was as magical as the ones who don't understand it tend to think it is, but for those who did I can see where it would be slightly disappointing if not simply inconvenient to not see it return, but that's about it.
I think for me part of the problem is how similar the NS2 skulk is by desing. It's almost a direct copy while the more restricted movement still ends up making everything a bit less interesting. Instead of a further developed original concept or a completely new concept, it's just feels like a watered down version of the original. At that point giving up any features hurts.
Comments
Yes basically. It was really tricky to master at first. If you happen to have either HL1, TFC, NS1 (in the readyroom/aliens), or even CS (although much more tricky to maintain), it can be done as follows:
-bind mwheeldown +jump (not required but really helps)
-start off running forward
-jump straight ahead but as soon as you have left the ground hold strafe either left or right and slowly move your mouse in the direction you chose to strafe.
-hit jump as soon as you land and repeat the previous step in either direction again to gain/maintain a little extra velocity
Easiest way to practice is in circles always choosing the same direction when you jump. Alternate left and right to bhop. This can work backwards or even sideways. Sideways bhop: start off strafing, then use either forward or back instead of left and right (still need to use the mouse in combination).
I was actually taught on a CS server running an awp map with 0 gravity. It is easiest to learn this way. You jump into the air and float practicing what I outlined above (without having to jump again). At first you might find yourself going nowhere but eventually it will make a lot of sense and allow you to get up to ridiculous speeds from 0 velocity in mid air. To learn the fastest using this method hold either left or right strafe and just keep moving the mouse in the same direction never letting go of the strafe. You will do circles in the air but will keep getting faster and faster until you stop holding strafe at which point you will fling in whatever direction you were going at the time.
The reason so many embrace bhopping is because it isn't just some simple trick, it actually requires practice and allows experienced players to often outperform others; a form of positive feedback especially for the hardcore gamer or one who is making an effort to learn. Not sure how a skill-based movement system would work in NS2 unless it's bhopping again, or maybe some kind of grappling web or something (the system if ever added will probably only be for aliens).
The Fades current blink is a good example.
Just teleport from A to B is simple... but catch a marine on the run with blink or using blink in battle without loosing orientation is tricky and requires practise and skill.
And as you can see in many posts in this forum, in general it is the same as bunnyhop.
Some players like it, others complain bacause it's "broken" or "to difficult" and so on.
I bet the reaction would be the same, no matter what kind of skillbased movement UWE comes up with.
skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum is badly needed in the game. general movement especially for the aliens feels way too restricted.
skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum is badly needed in the game. general movement especially for the aliens feels way too restricted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what you are doing, but I rarely have trouble chasing down a marine with blink. It is excellent for retreating, chasing, and disorienting the enemy. Common practice when you hear the blink noise is to look behind you, so a good Fade player will blink to the side, or somewhere else the marine can't see, and launch a mini-surprise attack from the new location.
I do agree that not being able to get in vents with it is a little sucky, but I don't even know if a Fade could fit in a vent at ground level anyway, so I don't take too much issue with it at this point in the game's development.
The people that use it to engage and disengage melee usually get shot up to ###### by a shotgun. You talk about skill based movement, and how bunnyhoping is the only example you have seen, but then refuse to acknowledge that there can be some skill to the Fade blinking if you use tactics and well aimed blinking.
skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum is badly needed in the game. general movement especially for the aliens feels way too restricted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1835831:date=Mar 3 2011, 02:13 PM:name=Skiddywinks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skiddywinks @ Mar 3 2011, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(...) I rarely have trouble chasing down a marine with blink. It is excellent for retreating, chasing, and disorienting the enemy. Common practice when you hear the blink noise is to look behind you, so a good Fade player will blink to the side, or somewhere else the marine can't see, and launch a mini-surprise attack from the new location.
(...)
that there can be some skill to the Fade blinking if you use tactics and well aimed blinking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as I said ;-)
Sorry, by "chase" I meant "chase and eliminate with extreme prejudice". It really isn't that hard. A marine running away is usually only concerned with getting away. Because of this, I have done some well timed blinks and then hit the cowardly marine with a secondary attack as he runs past.
EDIT:
As for it being a "battlefield" class in NS1, I really do not remember it being as powerful as you seem to think. At least not in NS_ mode. Besides, it isn't finished yet. Once we have everything in (abilities and all) we can only then really tell if the Fade needs changing.
But this is the first patch that by and large I can even remotely say the game is "playable". Good stuff, and hopefully there is a snowball effect where future patches come just as quickly and fix just as much.
EDIT:
As for it being a "battlefield" class in NS1, I really do not remember it being as powerful as you seem to think. At least not in NS_ mode. Besides, it isn't finished yet. Once we have everything in (abilities and all) we can only then really tell if the Fade needs changing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assure you if you face an experienced player who realizes sprint outruns the fade, he would easily kite you. And just because the marine runs, doesn't always mean he cares about getting away, he's very aware you cannot catching MOVING target. As for you saying you can hit cowardly marine with secondary attack, only way this would happen if he actually faints or stops moving all together.
If you played ns1, and do not see any difference between ns1 fade and current gimmick, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about, i'm sorry. NS1 fade was battlefield class, just like the onos was, he can jump into serious combat fights and create serious blows to the enemy, and be out of combat in split of a second. Also, being able to catch moving targets such as jetpackers, or running away marines, because of his ability to close the gap quickly between himself and the marine, was just amazing.
some may of not liked his blink ability because it was long jump forward, much of this discussed but it was practical solution, simple and effective. But now, the class is turned into a weak chasing marines on foot ambush class. You can write, and can say "eliminate with extreme prejudice" you basically making something sound good which doesn't change how bad something actually is n reality.
I've already made few ideas how to fix this problem. One of them was to keep the current blink fade has but also bring back ns1 blink, but rename it to something else. So the fade will have primary ambush blink while still having secondary blink to be able to close the gap needed to catching moving targets. You seriously need to realize how big of an issue it is. developers crippled the class with fancy ideas that worked only on paper but more practical, simple answer is needed.
lets not forget we need to bring back skillbased movement, and aircontrol or momentum from ns1!!
Since NS was on the HL engine people who had enough skill to take full advantage of the movement mechanics would be at an advantage (as any experienced player should feel). It gave people something to learn and get better at other than point and shoot (plenty of other games enforce this). Because of the potential for abuse as a marine they gave a velocity slowdown on land not a <b>gimmicky reduced jump height</b>. This did still allow the marine to exercise air control however when he jumped, he can keep jumping up and down if he wants (so can I) but hes gonna be just about jumping in place once he goes for the 2nd jump (and no one complained about this in NS1). I would assume the same will be done in NS2 eventually <i>so we can stop proposing more marine nerfs and worry more about how the skulk has been crippled and how to improve it</i>.
*It seems many people still don't understand what air control/skill base movement used to be (if you know then this isn't aimed at you). In HL1 it was basically jump, hold strafe in a direction and look towards that direction and you will curve toward where you are going at a slightly increasing speed. If you are playing a game that didn't nerf landing velocity you could keep doing this to get moving faster than just running around would allow, aka bunnyhopping, which obviously a marine shouldn't do (but can't so no worries).
TLDR >> If any nerfs should be applied to the marine it would be a velocity slowdown on land like NS1 did and just about every other shooter game that isn't pure arcade style. If anything we should be revisiting the nerfs that the aliens have received and help improve them to achieve balance, not worsen the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, bunnyhopping and this air strafe acceleration are gimmicky.
<b>luns</b> always makes me laugh. he tries so hard, pretending that by repeating himself so much (seriously, have a look at his posts - they are often word-for-word repetitions) he's going to gain developer support. oh well, some people aren't blessed with creativity.
Also, marine sprint-retreat is a valid tactic. Stop being so hung-up over your kdr. If you're in it for the kills and not the win, then play Combat. Ask MCMLXXXIV to remove sprint - I think that's actually a good idea, considering the smaller maps.
In NS2, accurate aiming against moving targets is fundamental. The game cannot be systematically balanced if hitting a target depends heavily on luck. Thus maximum movement speed have to be enforced per class, so there movement is predictable to a degree. Allowing both teams to bunnyhop adds too many variables into the game. That is why bunnyhopping (which is a speed exploit) should NOT be included in NS2.
As for air acceleration, it does exist in NS2. Try jumping left/right while holding the opposite movement key, and you can feel a noticable difference in velocity. It is just not as absurdly high like in NS1. Too much air allows excessively non-linear movement make client side "teleporting/warping" worse, and makes the game a lot less enjoyable for those with higher ping (anyone played WoW with 500+ ping?).
Jumping and strafing already add a good amount of unpredictability to alien and marine movement.
Some players may feel this "dumbs down" NS2, but I believe all you NS players love NS for its depth of team tactics and strategies, rather than purely a match of reflexes balanced around 1v1. Else we would have simply stuck to playing Quake.
<b>luns</b> does have a point though: Fade Blink is difficult to use currently, due to the inconsistent aiming system. Go on, try aiming at a marine or structure, adjust your aim up and down, and watch the ghost Fade hop all over the place. Chasing a running marine feels like chasing a fly with an automobile. Teleporting Blink may be fast, but offers poor precise control.
There is an annoying Blink bug where, if you aim directly at a player's model, Blink will not work, but still costs energy.
Reduced jump height is gimmicky. Generally velocity slowdown almost always gets used instead when players land from any height other than a couple stairs tall (actually make sense too). Since airstrafe accel and one of the tricks it provides, bunnyhopping, are not in this game and I did not propose they should be then what was the point of quoting my entire post and then making that statement? I'm against gimmicky stuff in this game and I'll repeat reduced jump height is just a bad idea considering the alternative and what was tried and true even in NS1... (and so many other games and lets not start a NS2 needs to be different now because this is practically trivial)
And by the way, luns repeats himself because he tends to be right, clearly knows the mechanics of NS1 and it seems many don't. I can't believe the amount of misinformation that gets posted on some of these topics.. I could see why he would want to correct people...
I think fade movement would be way more interesting if we could combine or use both the old and new blink. Imagine if the fade was allowed to use the old blink for say a second or two. You would be able to get way better angles with the teleport. Not to mention he would be able to quickly move into a group of marines without teleporting, or could catch up to a moving target like previously.
The fade could "old blink" up into the air, or around a corner, etc. And from that vantage point, use the teleport. I would be so down to replace the current 2nd ability with something that lets the fade move better.
Luns, I normally agree with most of your posts, but it is kind of arrogant (at the very least rude) to say that someone who does not share your opinion (and that is, your opinion) "doesn't know what they're talking about."
<!--quoteo(post=1835845:date=Mar 3 2011, 05:38 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Mar 3 2011, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already made few ideas how to fix this problem. One of them was to keep the current blink fade has but also bring back ns1 blink, but rename it to something else. So the fade will have primary ambush blink while still having secondary blink to be able to close the gap needed to catching moving targets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not make "Movement Special" (Shift) a toned down version of the old blink that only covers a relatively short distance by comparison to blink (or in other words, a short sprint or lunge)?
although primary blink now, needs to be reduced to one click somehow, the double clicking is a slow process, and in combat every second counts.
Bhop is a mini-game. In all seriousness. If not for the speed and competitive advantage that it would give a practiced player, it was fun when you're moving from point A to B, especially if there is a lack of combat in between. Helped to relieve the plain old "running."
So...
How do you use it? Does holding forward key affect it and ect?
How controllable is it? Can you actually take corners with it or so?
Is it FPS dependand?
Any idea how the system works, does your forward speed actually increase with the curve?
I can probably understand it easier if you can somehow explain it related to NS1 physics, but any kind of description is highly appreciated.
I disagree, NS1 still had a large spectrum of skilled players. The players that could hold their own could go get stuff done for the commander would be the pressure team. The players that where just at an OK skill level would go out in groups of 2 or 3 and get cover main points of the map. And the really crappy players would be mainly builders.
Individual skill is much needed to win the game and is what made me love NS1. The player with the most individual skill is really the one that communicates with the commander the most, the commander cares about them and spams them with meds and ammo because he is actually worth the res. The best player is also the one who would get the best gun in NS1. (award for hard work)
Taking away or nurfing individual skill would just hurt the game.
Bhoping brought NS1 into another world of skill, and thats why people practiced and played NS1 as much as they did.. to increase their skill. (hard work)
as maker as ze_marinebhop, i know that bhoping was a huge part of NS1's success
as maker as ze_marinebhop, i know that bhoping was a huge part of NS1's success<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhhh, why am I answering to a pro-bh-posting....?
Only reason I can think of, is to post my usual oppinion in the hope that "Constant dropping wears the stone..."
here we go:
<!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->BH = pogo-stick + rectum = ridiculous movement that kills any true immersion in a tactical-FPS-game<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Individual skill is much needed to win the game and is what made me love NS1. The player with the most individual skill is really the one that communicates with the commander the most, the commander cares about them and spams them with meds and ammo because he is actually worth the res. The best player is also the one who would get the best gun in NS1. (award for hard work)
Taking away or nurfing individual skill would just hurt the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what you're disagreeing with, but none of what you said contradicts what I said. I never said NS1 didn't have skilled players, or that I endorsed removing or nerfing skill, or that individual skill shouldn't be necessary or important, or that hard work shouldn't be rewarded. Yeah, the most skilled players are the ones that communicated with their comm and their team, and that is a skill that should be encouraged in a cooperative game, but the "skill" of increasing your movement speed by exploiting the physics of a game does nothing to promote cooperation or teamplay and creates a fracture between players that in some cases cannot be bridged.
<!--quoteo(post=1836219:date=Mar 6 2011, 02:03 PM:name=ZupE891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZupE891 @ Mar 6 2011, 02:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1836219"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bhoping brought NS1 into another world of skill, and thats why people practiced and played NS1 as much as they did.. to increase their skill. (hard work)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One has nothing to do with the other. Yes people practice/play anything to get better at it (increase skill), but that doesn't mean that the inclusion of any/every skill is necessarily good regardless of it's function, difficulty and consequences.
Just to prove a point: If they made bhoping insanely more difficult to perform such that only 3 people in the world could EVER physically do it (meaning it isn't just a matter of learning how. but a physical limitation), would it be a feature, or a problem?
That sounds more like an example of good strategy and not skill... just saying. I've seen plenty of highly cooperative players who are of no use just because they don't have skill.
The point that people are trying to make is the learning curve should be easy on game play elements but experienced players should be allowed to get good at the game and not just solely from their ability to communicate. A major part of the game is the FPS element let's not forget this. It can be real frustrating to get good at a game and have some noob kill you because of a nerf that was applied just to make the game easier.
The way NS movement works, it promotes team coordination quite a bit. If you see a skulk bunnyhopping marines down purely due to individual skill the players were on way different leagues.
The way I see it, the NS1 skulk movement system gives skulk flexibilty. That flexibilty certainly rewards individual skill to an extend, but it also adds up to the teamwork a lot. Skulk can share the enemy fire, use cover and in general act as a pack because their movement is extremely precise, quick and adaptible. Without ability to react and adapt rapidly you're stuck with simply outnumbering your opponents instead of actually developing the teamwork further.
The bhop acceleration and predictable movement patters add teamplay details too. The acceleration means more options and challenges in timing rushes. Using a predictable movement pattern to gain extra speed means that you'll need someone to distract the opponent. Bhopping is also loud and very vulnerable if you get caught off guard, so you better have the communication and parasites in good use.
By all means encourage teamwork, but limiting individual possibilities and flexibility also limits player's ability to operate as a team member. I don't want a game where the game is decided by having more players in a fight than your opponent does.
If this is what you understood I was saying from that post, I'm just gonna shut up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->strategy and cooperation was more important than individual player skill and good ping<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'more important than' is not equal to 'only thing that's important'.
I will counter with:
What was the point of explaining it if not supporting it? Or else what was the point of supporting it if not proposing it?
What was the point of explaining it if not supporting it? Or else what was the point of supporting it if not proposing it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because so many people here complain about bhop and don't even really understand it at all. Most of these people also couldn't figure it out and so naturally took its opposition. It was tons of fun in the HL engine (for those who took the time and patience to learn vs complain out of ignorance) but I have a bit of a neutral stance on it since it was most likely unintentional. It also wasn't a huge advantage in battle and was more of a fun trick on the side when going from place to place. Not to mention if you tried to bhop right up to a marine he would probably kill you. It isn't like bhop was as magical as the ones who don't understand it tend to think it is, but for those who did I can see where it would be slightly disappointing if not simply inconvenient to not see it return, but that's about it.