Fade Ambush
KuBaN
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Canonical (and Awesome) Idea for weapon2</div>What if we re-purposed the Fade's weapon2 function to facilitate calling him a "Stealth Ambusher" class: Secondary fire blinks, but also marks the fade's previous location as the Recall point. Primary fire deals no damage (if it's gonna be the slow one it is now, it HAS to have a longer range), but immediately Blinks the Fade and any mobile enemy units the Fade hits to the Recall point.
Additionally, switching weapons will remove your Recall Point (to prevent players from abusing Recall Points outside of their intended purpose).
This should take a lot of adrenaline so that the fade is weakened and more inclined to depend on other units or structures to take out the nabbed unit. This allows the Fade to separate marines stealthily, however due to the mechanics makes it much more difficult to do in the middle of combat and shouldn't be an abusable tactic in a firefight. Maybe the exoskeleton will be a counter to this move? Seems like it might be an effective grounding tool against JPs, as well as an overall ambush tool.
P.S. Current Blink requires too much unnecessary clicking to operate. Seems it should be such that upon pressing the blink key down, the fade image appears, and upon releasing the blink key, the fade blinks. One mouse click. Less is more.
P.S.S. Anyone think it'd be easier to control Blink if scrolling the mouse wheel would increase or decrease the blinks distance?
Additionally, switching weapons will remove your Recall Point (to prevent players from abusing Recall Points outside of their intended purpose).
This should take a lot of adrenaline so that the fade is weakened and more inclined to depend on other units or structures to take out the nabbed unit. This allows the Fade to separate marines stealthily, however due to the mechanics makes it much more difficult to do in the middle of combat and shouldn't be an abusable tactic in a firefight. Maybe the exoskeleton will be a counter to this move? Seems like it might be an effective grounding tool against JPs, as well as an overall ambush tool.
P.S. Current Blink requires too much unnecessary clicking to operate. Seems it should be such that upon pressing the blink key down, the fade image appears, and upon releasing the blink key, the fade blinks. One mouse click. Less is more.
P.S.S. Anyone think it'd be easier to control Blink if scrolling the mouse wheel would increase or decrease the blinks distance?
Comments
With secondary and primary fire you mean leftclick and rightclick but both in the 2nd (or 3rd?) weapon slot, right?
In this case.. this sounds awesome.
Beeing able to pick a marine of, take it with you and kill him in the distance.
But I whonder if would be a little imba.. well, we will see if they implement that.
BTW.
I like the stab attack and the blink as it is now.
okay the stab should be a onehit kill due its attack delay (which it isn't if aliens an marine are both on Armor/melee #3 and the marine has full health) but I find myself use it very often (especially against medpackspam)
On the hand, allowing Blink to anchor, so the Fade can easily blink, attack, and return to the starting point the would be fine.
I personally think it could work. It's a little bit like onos devour, but fifteen times less annoying because all it really does is just move you from one position to another - you ostensibly still have the chance to fight back or flee. And even if you don't... well, at least you weren't just staring at some beast's innards for fifteen seconds. And unlike the onos, the fade is MEANT to be a hit and run unit.
It would definitely scare the crap out of marines (which is good), and put you on edge whenever you know there's a fade lurking.
Rofl, I can imagine a team of two fades, a couple skulks and a lerk. Lerk would lay covering/blinding spores, one fade would blink in, take an exo marine out of his exo train, back to the fade's starting position where the other fade has blinked in, and in his turn pulled the marine back to HIS starting position, where the skulks are waiting. It's like a baton pass! Yeah, the two fades are overkill, I know...
Also, twiliteblue: I take it you've never played DotA/HoN...
Definitely liking the basic idea of a Recall point for blink, though. That should definitely be in, in one form or another.
What if... with secondary selected; clicking LMB once will set a recall point; clicking it again will 'attack' and blink back to the recall point (with whatever unit was attacked). RMB will always be regular blink. If a player misses, he'll just end up blinking back by himself.
Another way it could be used, select your secondary, LMB to set a recall point, select your primary, blink in, attack, when things get too hot, switch to secondary, LMB to blink back to the recall point.
Also, the idea of blink only requiring a single click has been brought up so many times before, to the point where it amazes me that UWE haven't already changed it. In addition, rather than mousewheel to increase distance as you suggested, it would merely require holding the RMB down to increase distance. So there's a standard, minimum blink distance which you'd just tap the RMB for, and you can extend the range of a single blink by holding down the RMB.
<!--quoteo(post=1835365:date=Feb 28 2011, 08:03 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 28 2011, 08:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if... with secondary selected; clicking LMB once will set a recall point; clicking it again will 'attack' and blink back to the recall point (with whatever unit was attacked). RMB will always be regular blink. If a player misses, he'll just end up blinking back by himself.
Another way it could be used, select your secondary, LMB to set a recall point, select your primary, blink in, attack, when things get too hot, switch to secondary, LMB to blink back to the recall point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way I envisioned it, the Recall Point is removed if you switch to any other weapon. This:
<ul><li>Requires Fades to use recall premeditatively, and prevents players from using Ambush Blink as an assault tool. If you were allowed to run in, bash everything, and instantly return to safety, well I can't see anyone doing much else.</li><li>Still allows the use of weapon2's heavy swipe outside of ambushing (whatever it's intended purpose is)</li><li>Encapsulates both functions of weapon2 as the Ambush tool. This (modularization) allows the weapon to be balanced easier, and removes the need for excessive weapon-switching, which in turn makes the weapons function easier for players to understand.</li><li>Keeps the control scheme pretty similar to weapon1, which further avoids player confusion.</li></ul>
<!--quoteo(post=1835365:date=Feb 28 2011, 08:03 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 28 2011, 08:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the idea of blink only requiring a single click has been brought up so many times before, to the point where it amazes me that UWE haven't already changed it. In addition, rather than mousewheel to increase distance as you suggested, it would merely require holding the RMB down to increase distance. So there's a standard, minimum blink distance which you'd just tap the RMB for, and you can extend the range of a single blink by holding down the RMB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm skeptical of holding down RMB to increase the range (Blink would then work like the sliding power meter's we see in ballistics games like Worms, Gunbound, etc., and the inaccuracy of those things irritates me), but I would still gladly welcome it over the current implementation.
Oh gods Kraken.....
On topic, I think the main reason for the multi-clicking for Fade right now is so you can easily cancel doing a Blink.
As for using Blink to yoink a Marine, I'm... not sure. It definitely fits, but proper use essentially ensures a kill. However, I'm interested to see if they could make it work and it would definitely be pretty fun.
Maybe there should be a little animation of the Fade 'Taking' the marine 'Hostage' (Putting his hand across the marines throat) and then vanishing in the smoke where they can easily kill him. That would be AWESOME. I really love that idea.
Or being able to stop them from moving like in the Fade Reveal:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U98Tbr5P2bs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U98Tbr5P2bs</a>
At <b>1:09</b> - <b>1:14</b>
I also think that the marines could have some sort of way to block a few of the hits from the Fade. That would be awesome.
The secondary attack can NOT be blocked though.
I like the current fade blinking system but I definitely agree with being able to control the distance of the blinking with the mousewheel.
The first idea I said is a OVER 9000!!!! with the +.
P.S.S. Anyone think it'd be easier to control Blink if scrolling the mouse wheel would increase or decrease the blinks distance?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to both of these.
xx made a single click fade blink mod located here:http://getsatisfaction.com/unknownworlds/topics/fade_controls_change_hold_mouse2_for_ghost_release_mouse2_for_blink
However, it would be nice if UWE made this the default or gave people the option to switch
The blink distance control via mouse scroll would be great also. I frequently have trouble getting the blink aiming good enough to go exactly where I want it. The more control I have the better.
I played DotA for about 5 years, and HoN for about 4 months during its beta. I have to say, long ranged pull is still quite anti-fun if there is no counter.
I like the recall idea to the last place you ported from. +1 on that. This is definitely a skill cap raiser. It would have to have some sort of timer or range though, otherwise it would be silly
I don't understand at all why people are so crazy about this mouse scroll 1 click blink thing... mouse scroll.. really... that just seems like it would be sooo inefficient and slow.
One of the problems though is how low the camera is on the players view for the fade.. hes shorter than the marines. This makes setting the position a little bit tougher.
I think that mouse-wheel would be incredibly cumbersome and slow. Currently, even switching weapons with mousewheel is cumbersome and slow.
Also, I had imagined that the recall point would cost an amount of energy and only last a number of seconds; or else constantly drain energy (at a reasonable rate) unless somehow cancelled - this energy consumption reflecting the fade 'focusing' on the recall point.
I think that putting them on different slots actually balances it. It takes effort to switch weapon, set a recall point, switch weapon, go in and attack, switch weapon, recall. It reduces the power, by reducing the ease of use, of recall points. Also, it maintains RMB as the standard forward blink. Either way, fades will have to use recall premeditatively. Obviously, the current 'mode' must be made obvious, easily done through the pose of the arms. And of course, last-used-weapon (Q) would be essential for this sort of play.
One other way to nerf the recall a bit, is to place some sort of visible marker (smoke, or a ball of energy - similar in look to the blink effect) at the recall point while it's active. This allows marines, if they're paying attention (and it's within line of sight), to know where a fade will recall to - which allows them three things: know when a fade has started his assault, know where a marine is going to be taken to, know where a fade is going to escape to. This also allows the fade's allies to better coordinate their ambush, because they know: when the fade's started his assault, and where the fade's going to return to (with a marine).
<!--quoteo(post=1835446:date=Mar 1 2011, 10:43 AM:name=twiliteblue)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Mar 1 2011, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835446"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played DotA for about 5 years, and HoN for about 4 months during its beta. I have to say, long ranged pull is still quite anti-fun if there is no counter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely. But it can't be said that it doesn't work in a PVP environment.
What NS has over those games is the tension and excitement.
This won't take any movement control away from the player, just warp them to another location, to be taken care of quietly. In much likelihood he WILL die, but it will not be so simple as pressing the button and running away.
Contrast this with onos devour. You were taken out of the game, staring at an animated GIF or something, for like 15 seconds, plus respawn time, and you were essentially helpless for the entire duration. In addition the onos suffered nothing from doing this. It made the onos a hit and run unit which doesn't suit its bulky frame. The same cannot be said of the fade - it is very much a hit and run unit.
<ul><li>Keep the attack a very heavy swipe, slow enough that the targeted marine, if alerted to the fade, could attempt to pivot and attack.</li><li>Give the heavy swipe some distinctive startup sound to alert the targeted marine and his squadron.</li><li>Make the rifle's melee knockback the fade or cancel the fade's attack. In either case, the fade Recall's immediately and doesn't take any marine with him.</li></ul>
This provides a viable counter for marines, while adding function to the rifle melee.
@Hairmau: After giving it some thought, I can see where the mousewheel would get cumbersome. Perhaps what you suggested earlier about holding the button to increase distance was the better idea. And I'm with you 100% on the marker, that sounds like a great idea. Would be nice for marines to be able to get the jump on the fade if they're thinking ahead.
Fade Weapon2 Suggestion: Focus
Fade's Secondary fire (RMB) Blinks normally, but additionally marks the Fade's pre-Blink location as a Focus Point.
* An active Focus Point constantly drains energy (~6-8/second).
* The Fade automatically returns (Blinks) to the Focus Point when his Energy reaches 0.
* A Focus Point appears as a puff of Blink smoke quickly dissipating. The Focus Point's timer is visible to the Fade via his Energy bar, and to other players via the volume of the smoke.
* Attacking a Focus Point destroys the Focus timer, returning the Fade instantly to the Focus Point (useful for enemies as well as the player to cancel the Focus prematurely).
Fade's Primary fire (LMB), Stab, functions normally (and as intended, after hitreg is fixed).
* During the delay, the Fade makes a distinct sound that nearby marines can easily identify and respond to.
* A Marine rifle's secondary fire (melee) can knockback and interrupt a Fade's Stab during the attack delay. The cost of Stab is still incurred when interrupted.
With Energy constantly draining, switching weapons comes at a high cost, which makes Stab--with it's high energy cost and long delay that additionally drains energy--highly effective when employed as a hit-and-run tactic (Focus-blink in, Stab, Focus-blink out), or as a means to cut the Focus timer short (ambush gone wrong) during heated firefights. If a player switches to weapon2 too late and does not have sufficient energy to Stab, he is left vulnerable while waiting for the Focus timer to expire.
EDIT: Changed the name from Recall to Focus 1) to distinguish this version from the previous and 2) Recall is already a planned ability for the Kharaa's Shift structure.
Edit:
Increase the range of the secondary attack?
WTH!?
Do you know how far it is at the moment?
I think they should increase the width of the attack to be honest. This way you can get a hit on them much easier.
+1 agree
You must mean the second weapons primary attack, because "secondary attack" of both of the Fade's current weapons are Blink.
<!--quoteo(post=1835601:date=Mar 2 2011, 04:48 AM:name=Papayas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Papayas @ Mar 2 2011, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Edit:
Increase the range of the secondary attack?
WTH!?
Do you know how far it is at the moment?
I think they should increase the width of the attack to be honest. This way you can get a hit on them much easier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Width is a component of range...
and I thought it would work something similar what u are saying
blink + attack + blink
something like this:
when you click it teleportes like the normal blink, but then it will automatic attack and automatic blink back to were it was...
so the fade can be that stealth guy
maybe to control it to not be so OP:
when the fade hits the target, it blinks back fast
when the fade miss, it should take a little more time to blink back...
This is what the player should be doing anyway - teleport, attack, teleport away. There's no reason to make it automatic, the fact that players are talking about making blink movement automatic proves that the current controls include too many clicks for efficient movement. As many people have suggested, teleport should be "hold mouse button - > target destination -> release mouse button -> teleport to target"
Also I hope the "target" being a duplicate fade model is placeholder, it looks terrible. It should at least be translucent, and would probably look better as a simple target shape rather than a character.
Also I hope the "target" being a duplicate fade model is placeholder, it looks terrible. It should at least be translucent, and would probably look better as a simple target shape rather than a character.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They should make it like the jumping symbol for predators in the new Aliens vs. Predator. That game lacked in a lot of areas, but overall gameplay wise it got a lot of things right.
Also I hope the "target" being a duplicate fade model is placeholder, it looks terrible. It should at least be translucent, and would probably look better as a simple target shape rather than a character.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sorry, but i can't imagine this way will be faster...
i think a auto blink would be easier and really faster
I, too find the focused jumping design in the Sega AvP quite intuitive.
A minimum distance for Blink would also be good to have, so Blink will not fire if the destination is too close (like Leap).
The jumping system in AvP only allows ground targetting (wheresa Blink can target air), but that makes jumping more predictable when playing as a Predator. Also, it allows the Predator to jump behind its target easily.
Blink will probably need to have its ray trace targetting algorithm reworked or replaced, to one that allows predictable and precise teleporting movement.
i think a auto blink would be easier and really faster<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be easier and faster, but that isn't necessarily a good thing in this case (which I believe was zex's point), because it's easy to the point that it's holding your hand. I don't know about you, but I don't think one button should be in charge of killing everyone in the server, but that would definitely be easier and faster.
And twilite's post got me thinking; why don't they use an indicator for the Skulk's leap, like they do for blink? Ignoring that it's slightly more complex to predict where the Skulk would end up, this would be pretty helpful.