Spawn Protection?

2

Comments

  • RebelRebel Join Date: 2003-04-10 Member: 15371Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Playtester
    Electric charge the IP and have an umbra burst on egg hatch?
  • broadbandbroadband Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 33013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1826237:date=Jan 22 2011, 11:59 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 22 2011, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826237"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, those are base protections.

    Know this: The issue is not that the IP is vulnerable, it's that players die instantly upon spawning and rejoin the spawn queue immediately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    that is the point of the game, to destroy your enemies unit spawning structures and them along with it. if you don't like being killed when you spawn, don't let the aliens rush your base. i also agree that distress beacon should bring back dead players.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    It's a more than fair point. You protect your base, you protect your spawn.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    Preventing spawning is not the same as spawn killing, though. In this regard, the aliens have much, much less of a disadvantage.
  • LivoniaLivonia Join Date: 2010-07-24 Member: 72744Members
    Whatever the solution, if one is indeed needed at all. I don't think a spawn protaction is the answer at all.

    When Ip's get hit in the games I play it's generally down to the Commander not informing the marines and/or not bailing to deal with it himself. Most early game rushes are either one team out skilling the other or the Marines trying to attack/defend some assets else where on the map, leaving the base vulnerable. Camping the Ip is a valuble tactic for the Alien team, to me it's part of the gameplay. Skulks should not be rushing and wiping marines out early game though, the Rifle and Pistol alt slow fire rip skulks apart. Marines should get in the habit of pairing off, a skulk attacking 2 should never win, at best the skulk should only get one kill. To add to that, as odd as it may sound. Don't attack the skulk chomping at you but kill the ones on other players. They are easier to hit and in turn die alot faster. If marines are in base a skulk rush should never work, not really. Also, why is it that marines have a habit of running on top of their comrades that are under attack? They always seem to blob which completely underminds the fact they have guns, ranged weapons...

    Map design and the amount of players have more to do with Ip camping, pretty sure it's more common on low pop servers. Ultimately, early or late game, if your out of marines and they are hitting the Ip, the game is lost. Games are supposed to end after all.
  • SpaZSpaZ Join Date: 2003-06-11 Member: 17256Members
    I remember that you could electrify structures at some point in NS1. Remember it being for the RT's but could you do it for the IP's as well?
    Spawn protection is not needed imo.
  • broadbandbroadband Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 33013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1826590:date=Jan 24 2011, 07:17 AM:name=SpaZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaZ @ Jan 24 2011, 07:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember that you could electrify structures at some point in NS1. Remember it being for the RT's but could you do it for the IP's as well?
    Spawn protection is not needed imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    the rt's and the turret factory, you used to be able to place a lot of structures in the tf and people used to build just about everything inside of it.
  • ASnogarDASnogarD Join Date: 2003-10-24 Member: 21894Members
    edited January 2011
    IIRC you could only electrify RT's , but that was understandable as Marines couldnt be expected to provide cover for every single RT and / or respond to attacks on those RT's quick enough... the electrify gave Marines some chance to rescue the RT.
    Aliens on the other hand could travese the levels much faster and respond to attacks on the harvestors quicker, and with Hivesight could identify where to go.

    IP's dont have the same escuse, the Comm can put them down anywhere within the radius of a CC and it isnt unreasonable to expect the Marines ot provide some cover for the CC and attached IP's.

    Telefragging enemies however would prevent Aliens from just sitting inside the IP , giving the Marine who is spawning at least a half chance of getting some fire down on the attacking aliens.
    Other than that , its not unreasonable to expect the Marines to defend the IP's.

    EDIT: Forgot about the TFs :P
  • ben1099ben1099 Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75282Members
    Aliens were meant to camp marines spawn if nothing was there to guard it. There are many eggs in a hive because rines are suppose to rush together (IE early shotty rush). Rines are mainly poor due to lag affecting aim.

    When I played NS1 I had no problem taking down shulks.. 10 out of 50 with a range recoiless 3degree bullet grouping is easy. If you cant handle that -----------> Either
    1) Quit
    2) Play F2P FPS game and buy their imbalance cash weapons.

    Not to mention rines have infinite stamina to sprint (I dont even know its like this)

    Not to mention rines can keep jumping without a drop in movespeed (come on how do you jump and shoot and aim and hit and not even get tired, has anyone held a real rifle

    I played enough NS2 to know 7/10 times when I fire at a alien extractor with a shotty - I kill the extractor with a skulk running around me biting air.

    BTW - Last note aliens are suppose to be stronger at the start till mid game, while rines aim for upgrades. If aliens were so weak they couldn't camp rine spawn when no one was guarding.

    it just means rines will go out capturing extractors gaining lots of resources without the real need to guard base.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Spawn killing is generally considered an undesirable part of fps games which is why many include some form of spawn protection. As Harimau has mentioned, dying immediately on spawn is the problem. At the very least you should have a few seconds with which to fight back, which is what a 3s spawn protection would do.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    edited January 2011
    I don't like the idea of invulnerability upon spawning, I just think there should be telefrags, with the range set so that: skulks can only chomp on the ip to damage it, but not be in range to chomp on a spawning marine. Marines should also gain vision of the IP a couple seconds before spawn. Same for aliens and their eggs - they should have vision through their eggs before they spawn.
  • broadbandbroadband Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 33013Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1826996:date=Jan 25 2011, 12:32 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 25 2011, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spawn killing is generally considered an undesirable part of fps games which is why many include some form of spawn protection. As Harimau has mentioned, dying immediately on spawn is the problem. At the very least you should have a few seconds with which to fight back, which is what a 3s spawn protection would do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    this isn't a normal fps, you don't see spawn protection in these types of games because if the alien team is barreling down the door all spawn protection is going to do is delay the inevitable, and if they are harassing your base it's a tactic to make your team stop their progress and defend the base or lose valuable assets in a base trade. you must protect your base, there is no way around this.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1827044:date=Jan 25 2011, 10:56 AM:name=broadband)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (broadband @ Jan 25 2011, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this isn't a normal fps, you don't see spawn protection in these types of games because if the alien team is barreling down the door all spawn protection is going to do is delay the inevitable, and if they are harassing your base it's a tactic to make your team stop their progress and defend the base or lose valuable assets in a base trade. you must protect your base, there is no way around this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Missing the point here. This is not about base defenses (which are lacking on the marine side), but not being able to defend your base because you can't legitimately fight back after spawning. Also, if a team is losing, then a 3s spawn protection isn't really going to delay anything. The point is that everybody has a chance of fighting back, which is a core principle of every game I've ever played.
  • SpaZSpaZ Join Date: 2003-06-11 Member: 17256Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1827710:date=Jan 27 2011, 04:29 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 27 2011, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Missing the point here. This is not about base defenses (which are lacking on the marine side), but not being able to defend your base because you can't legitimately fight back after spawning. Also, if a team is losing, then a 3s spawn protection isn't really going to delay anything. The point is that everybody has a chance of fighting back, which is a core principle of every game I've ever played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Don't like the idea of indestructible marines spawning from IP's. The skulk in base should basically go hide for the spawn protection duration, while the marine has time to use armory or run for better positioning with sprint. I agree to what others have said before me about telefrags.
    That way there would be at least some distance between the marine and the initial bite from a skulk. Also the idea of getting a glimpse of the spawn before you actually do could work. Then you would have some time to see what you are up against & align yourself versus the attacker.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1827710:date=Jan 27 2011, 09:29 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 27 2011, 09:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Missing the point here. This is not about base defenses (which are lacking on the marine side), but not being able to defend your base because you can't legitimately fight back after spawning. Also, if a team is losing, then a 3s spawn protection isn't really going to delay anything. The point is that everybody has a chance of fighting back, which is a core principle of every game I've ever played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    At that point you're not supposed to legitimately fight back just by spawning.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1826996:date=Jan 25 2011, 07:32 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 25 2011, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spawn killing is generally considered an undesirable part of fps games which is why many include some form of spawn protection. As Harimau has mentioned, dying immediately on spawn is the problem. At the very least you should have a few seconds with which to fight back, which is what a 3s spawn protection would do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Dying as you spawn means the game is close to finish however if you add 3sec (which in itself is huge) invulnerability the game will only get prolonged it adds nothing.

    You will get to play next round anyway.

    edit: I would like to add that unnessery prolonging is infact the unwanted part.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Spawnkilling was always part of the game. If your whole team is dead and aliens are covering the IPs, your base is probably going to die. With spawn invuln it would be practically impossible to kill the IPs without an Onos.
  • LoeyLoey Join Date: 2009-10-31 Member: 69187Members
    - If no one is alive on your team to kill the skulk spawn killing, then you've lost
    - If there are marines running around the map and a skulk is spawn killing, then they should high tail it back and defend the base.
    - Last resort is comm getting out and killing the skulk like in ns1
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2011
    I think the problem comes from servers that start 1v1, 2v2 - if a skulk gets a kill, it is instant IP assault.

    At the moment I see an issue with the readyroom. Consider this.

    If you are playing on a normal server, there is pressure to 'play'. You are either spectating or you join the game.

    In NS2, you can hang out in the Readyroom and there is not as much pressure to 'play'.

    In other games and servers it always feel like you are 'playing' or 'bugger off'.

    Many times a game is won, and then instead of 'restarting' with switched sides, you are back in the readyroom. Some people go AFK for ages for a break, and then games tend to start badly because only 2v2, 3v3 occurs whilst everyone else is AFK.

    Then people start joining late on, and already a lot of what is happening has been decided.

    <b>FIX</b>

    # Make it so servers limit (depending on player count) the minimum number of players on a team before the game starts.

    I.e. You can have 1v1 on a server that has 3 players in it, but not in a server that has 5+

    # Once players join, the server begins to auto-assign those (already on there, not late connections into a game) within the readyroom after 30 seconds.

    OR

    # Have restarts after each game (switch sides, auto-balance, auto assign)
  • broadbandbroadband Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 33013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1827790:date=Jan 27 2011, 10:48 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jan 27 2011, 10:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the problem comes from servers that start 1v1, 2v2 - if a skulk gets a kill, it is instant IP assault.

    At the moment I see an issue with the readyroom. Consider this.

    If you are playing on a normal server, there is pressure to 'play'. You are either spectating or you join the game.

    In NS2, you can hang out in the Readyroom and there is not as much pressure to 'play'.

    In other games and servers it always feel like you are 'playing' or 'bugger off'.

    Many times a game is won, and then instead of 'restarting' with switched sides, you are back in the readyroom. Some people go AFK for ages for a break, and then games tend to start badly because only 2v2, 3v3 occurs whilst everyone else is AFK.

    Then people start joining late on, and already a lot of what is happening has been decided.

    <b>FIX</b>

    # Make it so servers limit (depending on player count) the minimum number of players on a team before the game starts.

    I.e. You can have 1v1 on a server that has 3 players in it, but not in a server that has 5+

    # Once players join, the server begins to auto-assign those (already on there, not late connections into a game) within the readyroom after 30 seconds.

    OR

    # Have restarts after each game (switch sides, auto-balance, auto assign)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    none of this is necessary right now, but is probably possible with server plugins.
  • Pat (GER)Pat (GER) Join Date: 2010-12-13 Member: 75646Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1827788:date=Jan 27 2011, 04:32 PM:name=Loey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Loey @ Jan 27 2011, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Last resort is comm getting out and killing the skulk like in ns1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ok but a comm cant kill a fade alone :) a skulk ok but a fade.. no way

    skulks should get damage if they stand on the moving IP
    if they stand beside the IP they can attack the IP but not the spawning marine and additional to that the marine should have 1 or 2 seconds protection to get away from the IP
  • OpprobriousOpprobrious Join Date: 2008-11-17 Member: 65483Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1826996:date=Jan 25 2011, 12:32 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 25 2011, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1826996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Spawn killing is generally considered an undesirable part of fps games which is why many include some form of spawn protection. As Harimau has mentioned, dying immediately on spawn is the problem. At the very least you should have a few seconds with which to fight back, which is what a 3s spawn protection would do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But spawn killing is an expected and vital part of RTS games.

    Argument invalid.
  • broadbandbroadband Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 33013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1827824:date=Jan 27 2011, 12:54 PM:name=Pat (GER))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pat (GER) @ Jan 27 2011, 12:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok but a comm cant kill a fade alone :) a skulk ok but a fade.. no way

    skulks should get damage if they stand on the moving IP
    if they stand beside the IP they can attack the IP but not the spawning marine and additional to that the marine should have 1 or 2 seconds protection to get away from the IP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i've killed fades jumping out of chair, i've also killed onos. when you get the chance pop out and grab a shotgun, then you can defend a lot easier. placing the structures in spots where they have to attack the building with their backed turned to you helps a lot too.
  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Members
    We're looking at the difference between casual public-play and competitive-play here. Spawn-protection (akin to n seconds of invulnerability) is just not going to happen in the competitive-scene, ever, and with good reason. If your IP is under direct attack, it is no longer a matter of 'an honest fight', because you basically just lost that fight by letting skulks have at the IP. Said reason applies to clan-play very well, in public games however, not so much. You can't expect the 'average' player to respond sympathetically to the RTS-argument, that's just the way it is. So I'd reckon we would be looking at a mp_tournamentmode here, or something similar, to differentiate between the 2 styles. You don't have to base your game around casual-play, but excluding it will surely be a death-blow to it's popularity.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    edited January 2011
    In addition to other arguments, I think part of the reason why I like NS is that it's not afraid to be a little mean occassionally. When a game throws you a fight you can't win, you'll learn to understand how to avoid that fight. Later on you learn how to force enemies into fights they can't win. That's strategy for you.

    Most memorable games I've played are designed so that things can go horribly wrong and put you out of the comfort zone occassionally. In Starcraft you can run into a couple of lurkers, get blown up by spider mines and get your workers stormdropped or reavered. In NS you can end up getting baserushed, spawncamped, blow up a dozen mines or get your fade blocked and LMG'd at a critical moment. And in both games those moments happen even in the very top level games.

    It feels painful for a moment occassionally, but surviving an eventful round or match in such games is probably as satisfying as a multiplayer game gets.

    Edit: Well yeh, I guess it's once again a bit of a hardcore vs casual mindset. I'd really like to avoid making the tournament and casual modes too different, the gap is already big enough as it is.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1827824:date=Jan 27 2011, 05:54 PM:name=Pat (GER))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pat (GER) @ Jan 27 2011, 05:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ok but a comm cant kill a fade alone :) a skulk ok but a fade.. no way

    skulks should get damage if they stand on the moving IP
    if they stand beside the IP they can attack the IP but not the spawning marine and additional to that the marine should have 1 or 2 seconds protection to get away from the IP<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    With shotgun (atm) you can easily.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1827829:date=Jan 27 2011, 10:15 AM:name=Opprobrious)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Opprobrious @ Jan 27 2011, 10:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827829"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But spawn killing is an expected and vital part of RTS games.

    Argument invalid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Most people experience the FPS part of NS2 rather than RTS part. I think that makes your argument invalid.

    <!--quoteo(post=1827836:date=Jan 27 2011, 10:59 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 27 2011, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're looking at the difference between casual public-play and competitive-play here. Spawn-protection (akin to n seconds of invulnerability) is just not going to happen in the competitive-scene, ever, and with good reason. If your IP is under direct attack, it is no longer a matter of 'an honest fight', because you basically just lost that fight by letting skulks have at the IP. Said reason applies to clan-play very well, in public games however, not so much. You can't expect the 'average' player to respond sympathetically to the RTS-argument, that's just the way it is. So I'd reckon we would be looking at a mp_tournamentmode here, or something similar, to differentiate between the 2 styles. You don't have to base your game around casual-play, but excluding it will surely be a death-blow to it's popularity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Make spawn protection a server variable. Problem solved.
  • Raza.Raza. Join Date: 2004-01-24 Member: 25663Members, Constellation
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1827836:date=Jan 27 2011, 07:59 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Jan 27 2011, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827836"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I'd reckon we would be looking at a mp_tournamentmode here, or something similar, to differentiate between the 2 styles. You don't have to base your game around casual-play, but excluding it will surely be a death-blow to it's popularity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I disagree, it's not needed on public servers. There are usually more players around and near base and base defences are more common. Spawn protection (invulnerability on spawn) only makes it even harder to end the game and favours turtling especially in casual play.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1827843:date=Jan 27 2011, 08:32 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 27 2011, 08:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most people experience the FPS part of NS2 rather than RTS part. I think that makes your argument invalid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You experience the RTS part whether you're in the commander view or not.
  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1827845:date=Jan 27 2011, 08:37 PM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Jan 27 2011, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I disagree, it's not needed on public servers. There are usually more players around and near base and base defences are more common. Spawn protection (invulnerability on spawn) only makes it even harder to end the game and favours turtling especially in casual play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    From what I've seen, I would agree with you. Usually such IP-camping lasts only about 2 or 3 marines before the skulk is nabbed by either the Commander, a passing Marine or someone who managed to jump out of the IP.

    I'm just responding to people who apparently do find fault with the current situation, and speculate on how the in-flow of many casual gamers might enlarge this voice of criticism.
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