No LODs, why? (Level of Detail)

PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
edited January 2011 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">Just a question, im just curios</div><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Can be deleted </b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
(Reason: the game don't need LODs, because of occlusing culling)

Why is the game not using LODs or is it not important with the Occlusion culling?
But i guess it will increase some FPS or not?
Im just curios why its not used.

LOD = Level of Detail
If you for example right in front of a model it will show the full model with all the polycount, if you are like 10 yards away, it will use the LOD 1 Model, which has less polygones but you don't notice that because you don't see the details in that far away.

Or will it added later?
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Comments

  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    ns2 is close combat orientated. You rarely see models from far away, so it would probably not help very much.

    The only situation i could see an improvement would be in commander view. Actually i think it would help quite a bit there
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    It is "close combat" but not at all, you have some long corridors.
    Specialy as Lerk you have some long distance fights (Rockdown for example).
    Or like you say the commander, maybe the commander could zoom out with mousewheel and the player/alien/buildings models are replaced by images, which gives people with very low pc, the ability to smooth the battlefield, like in surpreme commander.
  • BAshhBAshh Join Date: 2003-08-26 Member: 20222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I've honestly never noticed a difference in gameplay from LOD models, in all my time playing games. Granted, maybe I'm not playing the right ones.
  • syprosypro Join Date: 2009-10-31 Member: 69195Members
    Well you are not supposed to realize it. The same thing is done with textures in most rendering engines. But LOD is being reaplced by heavy tenselation in DX11 games. It makes it possible for computers and consoles to run games such as GTA. If GTA was rendered fully without any reduction in quality of the models and textures and you would look at the whole thing at once you'd have 0,01 fps for example.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    With the rather small indoor environments of Natural Selection I'm not sure the additional overhead of maintaining model LoDs would be worth it.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1822711:date=Jan 8 2011, 11:17 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jan 8 2011, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the rather small indoor environments of Natural Selection I'm not sure the additional overhead of maintaining model LoDs would be worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's true, but I would like seeing it added so mod teams can take advantage of it. Large open maps wouldn't work for NS2, but it could be interesting for certain types of FPS/RTS gameplay.
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    Just for Info. Half-Life 2 is a close combat game too and use it for every Source-game, CS, DOD, TF2 and stuff.
    Sure its a old engine with bsp system and the spark engine use other newer features but for the commander, LOD can be very usefull, he don't need the high poly models, i guess.


    @BAshh
    I try modding for the source engine and i notice if you use a LOD it can end in low fps if you use it wrong, like to much LOD models, but if you did it correct, it can give a lot of fps.
    For example for Playermodels, if they far away, you don't notice the change, only the fps goes higher.
    Of course i have never that big understand like the UWE team, how can i, they are developers, im just a new tiny modder.
    So i hope on a answer, maybe they will use it later, they have a lot to do, its a new engine.
  • cmc5788cmc5788 Join Date: 2009-10-06 Member: 68959Members
    edited January 2011
    It's a tertiary feature. They might add it later if the game does well enough on release to merit continued development, but at this stage in beta I would imagine that the core engine has been mostly feature-frozen except for systems that need to be replaced to aid in optimization.

    Also as you mentioned, it really has to be used correctly or it's worse than worthless. "Long corridors" don't really count; it really only works as a benefit to performance in large-scale outdoor environments without obstructions. So it might be a feature that helps modders in the future, but it's just not worth it for NS2.
  • McGlaspieMcGlaspie www.team156.com Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
    For the context of NS2, this isn't very useful. If more than NS2 is to be done with Spark, this would be an extremely useful feature. Personally, I'd prefer a CLOD (Continuous Level of Detail). A CLOD does not have distinct levels, LOD0, LOD1, etc. it instead reduces the number of polygons in a model using an algorithm. Part of the reason Spark can get away with not requiring a LOD system right now is how it performs Occlusion Culling (dynamically, on the fly). It's worth mentioning there is an interesting twist on this. On the Technical Task list (way way down the list) there is a "Network LOD system" planned.

    I have several mod (both partial and total conversions) ideas that are dependent upon a LOD. I really hope Max is planning on adding this at some point.
  • cmc5788cmc5788 Join Date: 2009-10-06 Member: 68959Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1822753:date=Jan 8 2011, 04:02 PM:name=McGlaspie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (McGlaspie @ Jan 8 2011, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For the context of NS2, this isn't very useful. If more than NS2 is to be done with Spark, this would be an extremely useful feature. Personally, I'd prefer a CLOD (Continuous Level of Detail). A CLOD does not have distinct levels, LOD0, LOD1, etc. it instead reduces the number of polygons in a model using an algorithm. Part of the reason Spark can get away with not requiring a LOD system right now is how it performs Occlusion Culling (dynamically, on the fly). It's worth mentioning there is an interesting twist on this. On the Technical Task list (way way down the list) there is a "Network LOD system" planned.

    I have several mod (both partial and total conversions) ideas that are dependent upon a LOD. I really hope Max is planning on adding this at some point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As far as I know, CLOD is really only useful for terrain rendering. It would produce too much deformation on a very precisely textured, normal mapped player model. So that might be good for future modding potential based on sweeping outdoor environments, but in that case they'd also have to change a lot of other things -- the lighting model, for instance, only really supports indoor lighting at the moment. Again, good ideas, but not useful until well after a successful release of NS2.
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    For the vent-lights they use some fade out thing.


    <img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7558/89318215.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
    <img src="http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8619/86280375.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • BAshhBAshh Join Date: 2003-08-26 Member: 20222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--quoteo(post=1822747:date=Jan 8 2011, 04:44 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jan 8 2011, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just for Info. Half-Life 2 is a close combat game too and use it for every Source-game, CS, DOD, TF2 and stuff.
    Sure its a old engine with bsp system and the spark engine use other newer features but for the commander, LOD can be very usefull, he don't need the high poly models, i guess.


    @BAshh
    I try modding for the source engine and i notice if you use a LOD it can end in low fps if you use it wrong, like to much LOD models, but if you did it correct, it can give a lot of fps.
    For example for Playermodels, if they far away, you don't notice the change, only the fps goes higher.
    Of course i have never that big understand like the UWE team, how can i, they are developers, im just a new tiny modder.
    So i hope on a answer, maybe they will use it later, they have a lot to do, its a new engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I've worked plenty with source, and I had a ###### computer and still didn't notice any real value in game improvement. The only noticeable difference for me was when a map was made properly, with all the right culls and proper hiding of unseen geometry. Granted, I also wasn't using 10's of thousands of polygons for my models either, but I still didn't notice enough improvement to really require using it.

    The flipside of that may be that I just didn't have a good enough of a computer to run well even with LOD's.
  • -Diesel--Diesel- Join Date: 2009-09-13 Member: 68769Members
    Honestly.. Just buy new computers.

    If you are serious about video games then you should have a computer that can atleast run NS2.


    This game isn't crysis or anything, don't ask the developers to dumb the games down so people who are too cheap to buy a comp can play it without lag.
  • BAshhBAshh Join Date: 2003-08-26 Member: 20222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Or, just don't complain if your computer can't run it well. I loved playing CS and NS on my mother's old dell from like 2000, but it just didn't have the gonads to do it real well. I loved it all the same, and just thought "if only I had a better computer". So to totally butcher a famous quote and use it out of context, ask not what the game can do for you, but what you can do for the game.
  • ASnogarDASnogarD Join Date: 2003-10-24 Member: 21894Members
    Diesel unless you know all these guys rig set ups you cant just tell them to fork out for a new rig... my PC isnt too bad for today and it doesnt perfom at that well running NS 2, I mean a 3.5 ghz quad AthlonII x 630 , 4 gigs DDR3 ram with a GTX260 isnt a fossil of a PC even if it aint a power PC ( and yes I run my PC lean of processes and do have some idea on how to maintain a PC, I build my own each time ).

    The engine is still in development and will still go through a lot of optimisation runs as the game improves.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    i wonder if at some point they're going to introduce a static lighting rendering path so that older computers can run it well.
  • lwflwf Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58311Members, Constellation
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1822690:date=Jan 8 2011, 05:32 PM:name=BAshh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BAshh @ Jan 8 2011, 05:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've honestly never noticed a difference in gameplay from LOD models, in all my time playing games. Granted, maybe I'm not playing the right ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That just means it's working - you're not supposed to notice. It's purely for performance reasons, if you notice the shift th

    <!--quoteo(post=1822711:date=Jan 8 2011, 07:17 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jan 8 2011, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the rather small indoor environments of Natural Selection I'm not sure the additional overhead of maintaining model LoDs would be worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If you're in the other end of a corridor looking at a marine then you don't need to be able to read what it says on his gun, you can't do that anyway. There's enough distance in NS2 for LOD or something similar to still make sense.

    <!--quoteo(post=1822767:date=Jan 9 2011, 12:08 AM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Jan 9 2011, 12:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game isn't crysis or anything, don't ask the developers to dumb the games down so people who are too cheap to buy a comp can play it without lag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nothing you say makes sense.


    Here's an example of what can happen when you don't use LOD.
    <a href="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=15836" target="_blank">http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=15836</a>
    <a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/levelofdetail/index.htm" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/levelofdetail/index.htm</a>
    <a href="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/levelofdetail/page2.htm" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/levelofdetail/page2.htm</a>
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1822767:date=Jan 8 2011, 04:08 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Jan 8 2011, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly.. Just buy new computers.

    If you are serious about video games then you should have a computer that can atleast run NS2.


    This game isn't crysis or anything, don't ask the developers to dumb the games down so people who are too cheap to buy a comp can play it without lag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Then why do any optimization at all? Also, how does LOD dumb the game down? Do you really play a game where you need model detail at full way in the distance of a map? UWE doesn't necessarily need to do LOD specifically, but I'd like them to do something to reduce the performance cost of distant models for people who want to make more open maps.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1822767:date=Jan 9 2011, 07:08 AM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Jan 9 2011, 07:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822767"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly.. Just buy new computers.

    If you are serious about video games then you should have a computer that can atleast run NS2.


    This game isn't crysis or anything, don't ask the developers to dumb the games down so people who are too cheap to buy a comp can play it without lag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Riiiight. Because we all have the money to spend on new top-of-the-line systems. Go away, troll.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1822690:date=Jan 8 2011, 04:32 PM:name=BAshh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BAshh @ Jan 8 2011, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822690"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've honestly never noticed a difference in gameplay from LOD models, in all my time playing games. Granted, maybe I'm not playing the right ones.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Given that you've probably never played a game that doesn't use it that would hardly be surprising.

    <!--quoteo(post=1822711:date=Jan 8 2011, 06:17 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jan 8 2011, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With the rather small indoor environments of Natural Selection I'm not sure the additional overhead of maintaining model LoDs would be worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    With the excessively detailed models which comprise 90% of the NS2 environment it most certainly would be.
  • MOOtantMOOtant Join Date: 2010-06-25 Member: 72158Members
    LODs are combined so that vertices of all LOD levels are in the same container and only different indices are needed. Technique used by Valve is fast.

    Some kind of LOD will be needed for commander view. If commander can see 10 fades, lots of structures and 10 rines with their weapons and renders it at full detail then either plain FPP view doesn't push graphics limits or commander view is significantly slower.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    Good points. I'm sure they have an eye on it and know what they're doing.
  • GaidinTSGaidinTS Join Date: 2003-08-10 Member: 19319Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    At this point, I'm not sure you'd gain a lot. In my experience with spark so far, the GPU isn't the bottleneck for lag. For instance lowering texture, and fiddling with AA and such doesn't seem to impact my FPS (until you get drastic with it). LOD would just allow the GPU to render fewer polys, and with today's GPU's they are designed to handle massive amounts of polygons. I think it's a case of diminished returns. I don't think the gains in FPS would be worth the effort of implementing LOD. I'm sure there are plenty other low hanging fruit of optimization that will have a much greater impact on performance. Just by getting away from flash UI's they've saved 5 - 10 fps, which was a much greater return on their time then what you'd probably see with LOD.
  • MOOtantMOOtant Join Date: 2010-06-25 Member: 72158Members
    edited January 2011
    That doesn't invalidate what I said: either you don't get 100% of plain soldier POV quality or commander is slower (because normal view is 100% of GFX/CPU capability and comm has to draw let's say 2x that). NS2 isn't GPU bound yet but CPU part won't stay (mustn't :P) slow forever.

    FPS don't mean anything. 10 -> 20 FPS vs 100 -> 110 FPS. Use time per frame in miliseconds. These can be added and interpreted.
  • BAshhBAshh Join Date: 2003-08-26 Member: 20222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--quoteo(post=1822774:date=Jan 8 2011, 06:31 PM:name=lwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lwf @ Jan 8 2011, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822774"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That just means it's working - you're not supposed to notice. It's purely for performance reasons, if you notice the shift th<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I've developed content for games. What I mean is I've done my own small scale non-definitive tests on LOD's vs no LOD's and noticed no tangible difference. Thanks for playing though.
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1822839:date=Jan 9 2011, 08:39 AM:name=BAshh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BAshh @ Jan 9 2011, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822839"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've developed content for games. What I mean is I've done my own small scale non-definitive tests on LOD's vs no LOD's and noticed no tangible difference. Thanks for playing though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So you're saying all the AAA companies and commercial engines that use LOD systems are wasting their time because you can't figure out how to code functional LODs? This thread is really taking fanboi-ism to a hilarious new level.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1822810:date=Jan 8 2011, 10:04 PM:name=MOOtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MOOtant @ Jan 8 2011, 10:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->LODs are combined so that vertices of all LOD levels are in the same container and only different indices are needed. Technique used by Valve is fast.

    Some kind of LOD will be needed for commander view. If commander can see 10 fades, lots of structures and 10 rines with their weapons and renders it at full detail then either plain FPP view doesn't push graphics limits or commander view is significantly slower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The commander's view isn't that wide. If there are 10 fades and 10 rines in a single room, then someone in first-person view could theoretically see them all at once too. And commanders don't need quite as high a framerate as players in the field anyway.
  • MOOtantMOOtant Join Date: 2010-06-25 Member: 72158Members
    Actually if you look at room layout you'll notice that there are 2-10 rooms visible on commander screen. No person on the ground can see them all. It's not just player models (even though I mentioned geometry LOD for models). There are particle effects that might have cheaper shader/texture/less particles, simpler lights, simpler shadows and lots of other things. Commander interface also has more UI drawn.

    There is really no reason to draw far more triangles than pixels other than laziness.
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    edited January 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1822747:date=Jan 8 2011, 09:44 PM:name=Price)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Price @ Jan 8 2011, 09:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just for Info. Half-Life 2 is a close combat game too and use it for every Source-game, CS, DOD, TF2 and stuff.
    Sure its a old engine with bsp system and the spark engine use other newer features but for the commander, LOD can be very usefull, he don't need the high poly models, i guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Half-Life is not a 'close combat' game in the same sense that NS is. NS2 (assuming it has roughly the same engagement distances as NS1) is far more close quarters than HL2's vistas. If you ever saw a 'vista' in NS it was probably out of a window at a skymap.

    If they were gonna use LODs it would make a lot more sense for them to already be making them for the existing assets they have. You would want to have enough experience of integrating LODs into your art pipeline for your new engine that you were able to give very accurate estimates for your project management. It's also quicker to do LODs at the same time you're doing the high poly work. It makes little sense to revisit all your assets for the LODs at a later stage unless you have an 'oh shi son' moment towards the end of the project where you realise you absolutely have to have LODs despite planning not to have them, and I don't think Max is that kind of guy.

    The reason there aren't LODs is most likely because something in their rendering tech is doing the work LODs would so they don't have to expend man hours on unneccessary asset creation. Networking LODs sounds interesting, it might not even be LODs in the conventional sense.
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    edited January 2011
    Nice video
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDKieM8xC8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEDKieM8xC8</a>
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