NS2 is not ready for a Beta

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  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Not ready for beta by a long shot. It's not even playable with the lag!
  • AvalonAvalon Join Date: 2007-03-04 Member: 60224Members
    edited November 2010
    I'm not angry at all, but rather alarmed that this game is going to be released as a beta in the state that it's in. We're missing tons of features, units, buildings, and abilities. On top of that, the networking is still having major issues.

    A beta should be feature complete with minor to moderate bugs. Some people can't even play/connect to a game. I really hope they have something up their sleeve...as it is, the game needs another 3 months before it hits beta.
  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Members, Constellation
    edited November 2010
    Netcode and performance wise, if they could match the hit registration of the previous release with the present framerates then it would be very playable for under 4v4. I think thats possible relatively quickly. I'm not sure why they would decide to start the closed beta *tomorrow*, but if they can get those two characteristics to work at once then I could see some real gameplay being quite possible. Visually the game is certainly great, performance wise its getting there, and network wise (presently under 8) its clearly capable, so I think pretty soon a viable platform for the gameplay tests is possible. I agree that the "beta" seems a little early, but then again this follows the planned schedule where they said the alpha would only be a few months. I think everyone is aware that UW has always said that the alpha/beta period (And particularly the alpha) would be really gritty, and as long as everyone is aware of this then there is no problem in calling it an early closed beta.

    On the video, its a pretty interesting reveal. The new fade is both familiar and very different, we'll have to see how he works in-game. The artwork is universally excellent, and each class is now interrelated visually which will help new players. I'd say the alien family looks pretty healthy, so heres to being able to play them in game :)

    Netcode and the server should be the priority right now, which I expect it to be.
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1806313:date=Nov 18 2010, 08:13 PM:name=Bobby is going home)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bobby is going home @ Nov 18 2010, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I simply hope that there is a huuuuuuge beta patch incoming.
    If not I would not understand what makes the game beta now all out of the sudden.

    So: gimme that monster-patch :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There is no huge patch they have up their sleeves, what you see on the progress page is what you get.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1806302:date=Nov 18 2010, 08:48 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 18 2010, 08:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806302"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alpha wasn't very rewarding from a playability perspective but I don't care about that, I would have done it for any silly little perk and the black armor is fine. I'm just concerned because it's obvious to me and pretty much everybody else on this forum that the game is not in a Beta state yet and won't be for at least a few more patches, unless the team has worked miracles in the past two days. I don't know what would be worse: if UWE had to do this for funds to continue development, or if they still think the game is really playable based on internal testing and are oblivious to the outside feedback...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Roughly this. Alpha tester status isn't that much of a deal.

    I'm not going to even guess the reasons though. I just hope this goes according to their plan.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    Whether or not it's ready for the label I don't know, UWE might have the beta milestone criteria well established internally and it's quite possible that the game now meets them, but I do know it isn't ready for any sort of wide scale release.

    It doesn't work for a lot of people, and those it does work for it doesn't work very well, it is not on-par with the general standard of beta games. I don't really understand the reasoning for the name change, the way the article puts it suggests that there's going to be some major change occuring, which suggests either a major patch (which we've had no news of) or a major influx of new players (which the game is not ready for). If it's just an internal name change and the article is misrepresenting it, fair enough, but otherwise I really don't get it.
  • Bobby is going homeBobby is going home Join Date: 2010-04-11 Member: 71323Awaiting Authorization
    edited November 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1806320:date=Nov 18 2010, 09:24 PM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Nov 18 2010, 09:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is no huge patch they have up their sleeves, what you see on the progress page is what you get.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hey, don't smash my childish hopes and dreams :(
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    Hm. While I'm not particularly angry, I'm concerned that UWE is opening itself up for a huge amount of bashing from the press and players about "OMG, this is a BETA? This is crappy development code!"

    You know, the same complaints we field every day but at least had the shield of "don't worry, it's still Alpha, of course it's buggy!"


    So, I'm just concerned since I've seen many mods and commercials games die in a withering fire of bad press about how crummy stuff was. Doesn't matter it got better later, people's first impressions start to count as you move into Beta and eventually the final product.
  • WatchMakerWatchMaker Join Date: 2003-09-26 Member: 21233Members, Constellation
    UWE knows the state their game is in. They have chosen to move into a beta phase anyway. As a fan, this should excite you and thrill you. It means UWE is stepping up their game. Even if it is through raw necessity of a tight budget, this is good news. And yet all I see is a thread of people telling them they shouldn't do it, and better yet, that they can not do it.
  • 1stToast1stToast Join Date: 2007-12-02 Member: 63067Members
    I have been a long time player of NS. I felt that paying the $40 was a fair price for my past enjoyment, plus I could be involved and support a worthy project. I’m not a programmer, designer or developer. I’m a hardware guy. I may not be the brightest diode on the wafer but watching the process of getting NS2 to where it is now has been an education. Just reading the forums has provided a lot of entertainment. I’m willing to wait and see how it all turns out. It’s just a game, (almost). It’s a little like watching Monty python. If you don’t get the humor in it, sorry for you.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1806329:date=Nov 18 2010, 12:35 PM:name=WatchMaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WatchMaker @ Nov 18 2010, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806329"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->UWE knows the state their game is in. They have chosen to move into a beta phase anyway. As a fan, this should excite you and thrill you. It means UWE is stepping up their game. Even if it is through raw necessity of a tight budget, this is good news. And yet all I see is a thread of people telling them they shouldn't do it, and better yet, that they can not do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh, I'm excited. I'm just a bit leery.
  • w0dk4w0dk4 Join Date: 2008-04-22 Member: 64129Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2010
    I think we're all excited, however that doesnt make the critic less valid. Also, if there is a money problem, I dont think it's such a bad move.
  • BluePhishBluePhish Join Date: 2003-12-14 Member: 24364Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Or... they just need more input/players for development.
  • HushHush Join Date: 2010-07-14 Member: 72350Members
    I love what they've done so far. I haven't really gotten through more than a match or two in the Alpha, but I think it could hurt UWE a bit going into beta right now.

    Unless there is a massive patch tomorrow that will add the Fade and a ton of optimization, I can easily see people that don't understand what a beta really is getting pissed off. Majority of modern gamers think a beta is an early access demo, they treat it as a demo of what the final product will be. This is prolly due to high budget/big name published games putting out extremely polished and smooth betas for stress testing and balancing.

    I really don't want to see a wave of poster tomorrow making threads about how they want to get their money back since the beta isn't performing on their machine the way they want it to.

    I love UWE, they are my favorite Indie developer and I don't want to see them hurting from jumping into a beta to early, unless they are realllllly certain it'll go well.
  • CHAMoisCHAMois Join Date: 2003-02-09 Member: 13339Members
    edited November 2010
    Neither of those things require continually taking money from people for a project with no foreseeable end. The level of mismanagement this game has been through is comedic, the solution is not to accelerate the development process so you can milk more money from unsuspecting consumers because you are broke yet again.

    I've kissed my money goodbye, I consider it payment for the years of fun I had with NS, but that doesn't mean I'll condone them continuing to lie to people about the state of their game or the progress they've made. There's an entire industry built around financing speculative business ventures, try there instead of slapping "beta" on your broken ###### and accepting peoples paypal funds
  • CrispixCrispix Join Date: 2007-01-10 Member: 59543Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
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  • NortonNorton Join Date: 2005-01-13 Member: 35264Members
    I don't really understand what has changed. Alpha started as an unplayable feature incomplete lagfest and thats exactly what it is now.
  • PistachioPistachio Join Date: 2005-05-26 Member: 52481Members
    I think it's worth noting that a lot of companies use betas as a "soft release" that's actually more of a promotion and a way to get a player base than it is actual testing. We've gotten used to seeing betas as near playable versions of titles with only very, very minor bugs to be ironed out. UWE is not a large company, so I think what we're seeing here is more of a true beta rather than a publicity move.

    Ultimately all that matters is the game is still in development, and we shouldn't judge the final product until we see it.
  • HushHush Join Date: 2010-07-14 Member: 72350Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1806345:date=Nov 18 2010, 03:56 PM:name=Pistachio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pistachio @ Nov 18 2010, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806345"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it's worth noting that a lot of companies use betas as a "soft release" that's actually more of a promotion and a way to get a player base than it is actual testing. We've gotten used to seeing betas as near playable versions of titles with only very, very minor bugs to be ironed out. UWE is not a large company, so I think what we're seeing here is more of a true beta rather than a publicity move.

    Ultimately all that matters is the game is still in development, and we shouldn't judge the final product until we see it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I agree with you. But like I said in my post. Majority of "modern" gamers don't understand what a real beta is. They'll see this and walk away, most likely.
  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Members
    edited November 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1806287:date=Nov 18 2010, 03:27 PM:name=derWalter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (derWalter @ Nov 18 2010, 03:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806287"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->alpha = feature adding
    beta = everything is in, what needs to be in for the game to be released.
    beta = bugfixing only


    always think of that...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Everyone has their own idea over what the words "Alpha" and "Beta" mean, but we should remember that it's up to the devs to decide how they conduct their business.

    Maybe by opening up the game to beta preorders that they can finally put the game in the steam store, and therefore make more money. And maybe this will permit them to purchase some high quality software libraries which permit NS2 to reach it's full potential faster. Which is good.

    You guys DIFBA (did it for black armor) anyway, so what's the problem? jk :P
  • PistachioPistachio Join Date: 2005-05-26 Member: 52481Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1806341:date=Nov 18 2010, 03:48 PM:name=CHAMois)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CHAMois @ Nov 18 2010, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Neither of those things require continually taking money from people for a project with no foreseeable end. The level of mismanagement this game has been through is comedic, the solution is not to accelerate the development process so you can milk more money from unsuspecting consumers because you are broke yet again.

    I've kissed my money goodbye, I consider it payment for the years of fun I had with NS, but that doesn't mean I'll condone them continuing to lie to people about the state of their game or the progress they've made. There's an entire industry built around financing speculative business ventures, try there instead of slapping "beta" on your broken ###### and accepting peoples paypal funds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Lied? Sure they may have been outspoken about certain expectations that weren't met, but that's always come with a good explanation as to why. When has anyone at UWE lied to the community to serve any sort of agenda? They have been completely transparent with their entire development process and motives. The alpha is proof of that. You just sound angry because you pre-ordered a game before it was finished and expected it to be completely playable. That's like ordering a car when it's half way across the production line, and assuming you can drive it off to work.
  • Dalin SeivewrightDalin Seivewright 0x0000221E Join Date: 2007-10-20 Member: 62685Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1806336:date=Nov 18 2010, 02:40 PM:name=BluePhish)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluePhish @ Nov 18 2010, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or... they just need more input/players for development.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It doesn't help that they don't have an actual bug reporting system (getsatisfaction is a bit of a joke IMO). More input/players for development just means more people complaining about how the Alpha/Beta isn't working properly... things they already know.

    And it doesn't help when posts in the forum about lag or problem X is met mostly with "It is an Alpha! Deal with it." because that is kind of moot at this point.
    Needing money is one thing, needing more input from players who get shot down on the forums and then are forced to use a Feedback oriented system as a bug reporting tool is something completely different.

    I guess if the reason they're moving ahead to Beta is because they need money (and AFAIK, that is just speculative at this point) then I'm a little disapointed. UWE is a team of smart and talented individuals, I'm not doubting that for one second, but maybe that money would have been better spent on one or two more programmers to help Max (and... the... other programmer... I forget your name... sorry!) or hey, I'm sure there are dozens of talented programmers that visit these forums who would gladly offer up advice/help or even stackoverflow.com or gamedev.stackexchange.com. I'm not saying you guys aren't capable, I'm just saying if you guys are pushing for a Beta release already without squashing most of the performance bugs then maybe you need to get a little bit of help.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1806349:date=Nov 18 2010, 10:05 PM:name=Pistachio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pistachio @ Nov 18 2010, 10:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806349"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lied? Sure they may have been outspoken about certain expectations that weren't met, but that's always come with a good explanation as to why. When has anyone at UWE lied to the community to serve any sort of agenda? They have been completely transparent with their entire development process and motives. The alpha is proof of that. You just sound angry because you pre-ordered a game before it was finished and expected it to be completely playable. That's like ordering a car when it's half way across the production line, and assuming you can drive it off to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Seriously, I feel kind of bad for saying this because I love NS and have lots of respect for the devs, but don't you remember the "Fall 2009" trailer?

    Perhaps it isn't an outright lie, but it's misdirection, for sure. Also, the over-enthusiastic twits aren't very good for their image either, imo.
  • cmc5788cmc5788 Join Date: 2009-10-06 Member: 68959Members
    edited November 2010
    The game is NOT ready for beta. Even with the alpha testing base they have more than enough bugs to keep their hands full for awhile to come, so I don't buy the "they need more testers" thing. If they're strapped for cash that's fine; I want to see this game succeed, so I hope it works.

    I just don't like the idea that they're going to alienate the next wave of paying customers by inducting them into a barely-playable game. There are different standards for a public beta than an alpha. That "buggy game" reputation is the sort of thing that will stick with NS2 through to release, regardless of how much polish they manage in later stages. I hope it's worth it.
  • PseudoKnightPseudoKnight Join Date: 2002-06-18 Member: 791Members
    edited November 2010
    I've been concerned with having a relatively open alpha and beta. The original NS had a strong marketing campaign that helped push its popularity. Part of that was keeping it closed until 1.0, with a sudden media push right before that. NS2's marketing has been thin and stretched out with a lot of poor early impressions. I know the core community is going to stick with it, but exposing a weak game because it's too early in development can easily put off potential newcomers. It's amazing how many people treat betas like they're demos. At least it's only for preorders. Though, it's not hard to find preorder customers that aren't happy on these forums, ridiculous as it may be.

    If this is a funding issue, then it's the right move -- the only move. Otherwise, I was hoping they'd have waited. And this is coming from someone who doesn't have Alpha access. (I haven't spent over $20 for a game in a long while)
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo(post=1806328:date=Nov 18 2010, 01:34 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Nov 18 2010, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hm. While I'm not particularly angry, I'm concerned that UWE is opening itself up for a huge amount of bashing from the press and players about "OMG, this is a BETA? This is crappy development code!"

    You know, the same complaints we field every day but at least had the shield of "don't worry, it's still Alpha, of course it's buggy!"


    So, I'm just concerned since I've seen many mods and commercials games die in a withering fire of bad press about how crummy stuff was. Doesn't matter it got better later, people's first impressions start to count as you move into Beta and eventually the final product.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Yep, I saw this with World War II Online. They released it far too early, and scared everyone off by all the bugs. They never recovered, despite later making a pretty awesome and bug-free game. Don't make this mistake...make sure your final version isn't what we all think of as a beta version.
  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
    edited November 2010
    Fans: so when will u release the game?
    UWE: when its done.
    Fans: cmon its been one year now!
    UWE: when its done.
    Fans: but the teaser said 2009, release it allready we cant wait anymore!!
    UWE: when its done.

    UWE: its done!
    Fans: dont release it!

    This community is indeed special
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1806361:date=Nov 18 2010, 04:25 PM:name=rammaj)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rammaj @ Nov 18 2010, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1806361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fans: so when will u release the game?
    UWE: when its done.
    Fans: cmon its been one year now!
    UWE: when its done.
    Fans: but the teaser said 2009, release it allready we cant wait anymore!!
    UWE: when its done.

    UWE: its done!
    Fans: dont release it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    lmao
    That would be the case, wouldn't it. XD
    (I know, I know, the game is not "done," but I'm sure there would be some fans screaming, even at 1.0 release)
  • DelphicDelphic Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58262Members
    edited November 2010
    Honestly, the hitching (nice fps, nice fps - no fps - nice fps, nice fps, no fps) and the server issues (and ideally the hit reg) need to be fixed before an open beta.

    People don't mind bugs like flaming armouries or sentries not powering down as long as they can run around and shoot... but if they can't, watch out for the nerd rage!

    That said "closed beta" suggests to me it's being opened up to those that have already pre-orders, not any one that pre-orders from this point on? If that's the case and they are waiting for the above until they get to the "buy to <i>play</i> NOW", then I have no problem with them changing the label.

    But I have to agree it's not ready for wide spread consumption just yet.

    Also, fade looks quite cool, not so upright as ns1, this is good. Didn't like the trailer though too much posturing.
  • SwampRatSwampRat Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13369Members
    Ooh, I was about to ask on the system requirements (why bring up new topics with the old ones there) and they <b>have</b> changed them!
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->System Requirements:
    1.2 GHz Processor, 256MB RAM, a DirectX 9 level graphics card, Windows Vista/2000/XP, Steam, mouse, keyboard and an internet connection. The beta is not fully optimized so a more powerful system is recommended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    So sticking with the crazy-low requirements and just caveating it for the beta. Maybe once the bugs are out it'll run on that. Thinking of which, should a windows7 phone be able to run it?...

    Otherwise the pre-order page confirms access from tomorrow plus update patches just about every week.

    I still wonder (but doubt) whether they've considered their VAT position though
This discussion has been closed.