NS2 Lerk Flight

remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited August 2010 in NS2 General Discussion
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to try to make the new Lerk flight pretty much identical to NS1. Anyone have any thoughts about what should be changed? #f<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

My suggestion:
Barrel roll with a/d.


What's yours?
«13

Comments

  • RulgrokRulgrok Join Date: 2007-04-04 Member: 60559Members
    when gliding moving the mouse changes pitch and yaw
  • NeoSniperNeoSniper Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
    edited August 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1794889:date=Aug 18 2010, 01:13 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Aug 18 2010, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My suggestion:
    Barrel roll with a/d.

    What's yours?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    +1 for roll

    My suggestion:
    w=foward thurst
    s=harsh brake (back flap) and once stopped hover flap (with flapping!)
    mouse up/down = pitch
    mouse left/right = yaw
    a/d = roll (leans & strafe when hovering)
    space = press/flap & hold/glide


    *Also I'd love it if as lerk I could go up beyond Zenith angle and actually do a loop (free flight dynamics)

    Anyone ever play Echelon? Really nice keyboard/mouse controls for hybrid fighters that could also hover (it's futuristic). Some of it could translate well for Lerk. The game is old but maybe you can still find the demo (around ~50MB)

    EDIT: Might be too much to ask but just throwing ideas out there... having a button for contracting the wings (like a seagull diving) might add some strategy (aka smaller profile harder to shoot / less maneuverability / can't flap / gives a little speed burst and holds speed)
  • LazerLazer Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14406Members, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    Combine the top two and that would be really fun lerk flight :)
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1794904:date=Aug 17 2010, 10:13 PM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Aug 17 2010, 10:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794904"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone ever play Echelon? Really nice keyboard/mouse controls for hybrid fighters that could also hover (it's futuristic). Some of it could translate well for Lerk. The game is old but maybe you can still find the demo (around ~50MB)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Downloading now, anyone else interested, here's the link i found:
    <a href="http://download.cnet.com/Echelon-demo/3000-7551_4-10056214.html" target="_blank">http://download.cnet.com/Echelon-demo/3000...4-10056214.html</a>

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Might be too much to ask but just throwing ideas out there... having a button for contracting the wings (like a seagull diving) might add some strategy (aka smaller profile harder to shoot / less maneuverability / can't flap / gives a little speed burst and holds speed)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think you said it a little wrong there... pulling in the wings would mean no maneuverability, and basically projectile flight (no gliding, just physics take over... velocity drives you forward, gravity pulls you down)... I like the idea of flapping down a hallway gaining speed, angling up a little at the doorway, and tucking my wings in to catapult across a marine-occupied room making the majority of bullets miss me... just to spread my wings out right above them and descend upon my dinner. :)
  • samurai_jeffsamurai_jeff Join Date: 2004-11-18 Member: 32853Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Earlier post from the twitter thread. Chucking it here as it's been buried by pages of flame lol :/

    <!--quoteo(post=1794871:date=Aug 17 2010, 11:00 PM:name=samurai_jeff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (samurai_jeff @ Aug 17 2010, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to press the space bar to control flaps was pretty unique i think. It meant you had more control over your speed. The problem with having a three dimensional no-clip 'walk' as some have mentioned is that it would most likely have a static speed for each direction (like swimming in the half life engine).

    The latest flight model in NS1 allows you to- as i said- control that speed. You can glide by lowering the flap frequency or- in panicked situations- apply a quick burst by spamming flap.

    What you could do, however, is keep the spacebar-to-flap mechanic (lower frequency allows gliding/hovering) and then also add strafing so that if you press strafe left and a few flaps you flap in that direction whilst keeping you view where you want it. The same with holding back (reverse of where you're aiming) + a few flaps could be more for hovering in a position/backing off slowly, or if you look downward could make you ascend)

    BUT, when you hold forward and flap it returns to the current NS1 model where your max speed is achieved and you fly exactly where you aim, which includes flying up/downward (less dictated by flap frequency).

    This gives the player the accuracy and flexibility of the current flight model while at the same time can be traded for the same flexibility and accuracy of aiming.

    tl;dr Have A/D apply strafe through flaps, S apply slower backward movement/hover (depending on aiming vector) allowing precision for aiming your spikes, and W to apply the faster, more precise, NS1 flight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • WavesonicsWavesonics Join Date: 2006-12-02 Member: 58833Members
    Echelon was the ######!! AWESOME flight dynamics!

    Dropping into the canyons to get under radar, then jamming on the after burners and zig zagging through the circuitus canyon system trying to lose your tail all the while trying not to slam face first into a canyyon wall at a zillion miles an hour!

    Or waiting for the last moment to pull a 90 degree swoop to dodge a missile!

    Ah good times...

    Anyway ya, lerk flight should be just like that :P

    But seriously being able to do loops would truly rock, I could see some really nasty lerk pilots coming out of free flight dynamics ;) swoop in a loop and into a peerch on the ceiling after biting some guys head off!
  • ChaosIncChaosInc Join Date: 2010-07-28 Member: 73283Members
    I thought lerks weren't going to have bite in NS2. If that is still true I would rather my lerk handle like P-38 then a harrier. Strafing runs and dive bombing WTF.
  • PhiXXPhiXX Join Date: 2008-10-22 Member: 65274Members
    edited August 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1794889:date=Aug 18 2010, 07:13 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Aug 18 2010, 07:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Barrel roll with a/d.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wIkJvY96i8w"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wIkJvY96i8w" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>

    My suggestion, from a v.3.2 pov, enhance being able to look around while moving in another direction
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
    Adding a strafing flight capability (less than 45 degrees) would be great. I put some explanation of this in the Twitter thread. The idea is to have some limited ability to attack in one direction while moving in a slightly differently direction.

    I'm certainly intrigued with a free flight model. I'll have to check out that demo. I do think having lerks strafing at 90 degrees would not be ideal or balanced. Something like the BF1942 tail yaw combined with flapping and free flight would be pretty great IMO.
  • PILLPILL Join Date: 2010-08-18 Member: 73690Members
    I think it's a mistake to make lerk flight much more complicated than it was in NS1. Space/flight-sim type flight is all well and good in games that are designed for it, but NS (especially NS2 apparently) is all about small maps and claustrophobic passageways (not to mention vents). Trying to put simulator style flight into these kinds of environments is going to make playing a lerk an exercise in frustration. Furthermore, there's just no need for loops/barrel rolls. They would at best be parlor tricks and I imagine they would tend to disorient players who are used to having their camera locked at a certain orientation to the floor (much like the decision not to rotate skulk's viewpoints when wall/ceiling walking). Think about it from a marine perspective. A lerk doing a loop would be far easier to hit than one flying around a corner as fast as possible. That type of maneuver serves no purpose.


    NS has always been about fast action and strategy. Flight needs to be simple enough that a good player can do it almost unconsciously while working to position themselves in the most effective place. Ideally it should be fast and maneuverable enough to make lerks mobile and tough to hit, but only to a certain degree. It's worth mentioning that lerks are going to be vent lurkers to a far greater degree than in NS1 due to the replacement of bite with spikes, and that spores will most likely remain the ability of the lerk that makes them the most strategically valuable.

    That said, I do like the idea of allowing a lerk to rotate their view while gliding so they can aim spikes without changing their direction. I prefer the old high-risk high-reward of lerk bites, but if we have to make due with spikes, we better be able to aim them on the move without having to fly straight towards marines. If there isn't an option for this type of attack, then lerks will be pigeon holed into hiding around corners to use spores when playing against highly skilled marines.
  • SN.WolfSN.Wolf Join Date: 2010-03-29 Member: 71115Members
    So from what i am reading everyone want's a harrier jet .... lol ....might as well give it pterodactyl poo bombs while your at it. I'm sure plugins will be made available to attach the skulk bite in place of the spikes and move them to another button on the keyboard.
    You do know the lerk spikes where server specific plugin right?
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    Is there still going to be some kind of +movement bind?
    Lerk should get double-jump for +movement then in order to fully accelerate.

    Anyway, I agree with PILL.

    Lerks should be able to aim without affecting their movement direction, if you hold a key.
    Also I'd like to see Lerks being able to stick to ceilings.
    So something like this:
    jump = flap
    holding jump = glide
    holding crouch = glide and aim not affecting direction
    holding walk = stick to ceiling
    +movement = double-flap

    Not sure what key layout is the best for the whole rotating view while gliding thing though..
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1794915:date=Aug 17 2010, 10:52 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Psyke @ Aug 17 2010, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Downloading now, anyone else interested, here's the link i found:
    <a href="http://download.cnet.com/Echelon-demo/3000-7551_4-10056214.html" target="_blank">http://download.cnet.com/Echelon-demo/3000...4-10056214.html</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hmm. Demo didn't work on Win 7. Errored out while loading a map with "error creating game scene".
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
    The idea of aiming while gliding just isn't as interesting to me as some form of strafe-flight. I don't want a harrier, but the advantage of strafing slightly in flight is that your flight path while tracking a target will be a curving arc instead of a straight glide. Part of balancing strafe-flight would probably involve limiting it to a glide, or making it decrease velocity scaled from the angle of the turn.

    This would create a trade-off between time aiming at a target vs flight speed and exposure. I think a lerk that can't do effective strafing runs on targets will be very limited to sniping and harassment.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    edited August 2010
    + 1 for sticking to ceiling (i think that's already planned)
    +1 for aiming while gliding without changing direction.

    The other things I'd like is lerks being able to lift gorges, lerks being able to clean the teeth of skulks like you see birds do to crocodiles, and 4 lerks working together should be able to lift an Onos. Ok just ignore the last 2 ideas :P
  • CerebralCerebral Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17689Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1794977:date=Aug 18 2010, 01:24 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Aug 18 2010, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is there still going to be some kind of +movement bind?
    Lerk should get double-jump for +movement then in order to fully accelerate.

    Anyway, I agree with PILL.

    Lerks should be able to aim without affecting their movement direction, if you hold a key.
    Also I'd like to see Lerks being able to stick to ceilings.
    So something like this:
    jump = flap
    holding jump = glide
    holding crouch = glide and aim not affecting direction
    holding walk = stick to ceiling
    +movement = double-flap

    Not sure what key layout is the best for the whole rotating view while gliding thing though..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't know if the +movement stuff is necessary but I do like the idea of holding a button down to get a limited free look view for shooting while still moving in your original direction. If you combined this with the ability to bank left and right using the strafe buttons I could see it being cool to circle marines while firing spikes. The main reason this style appeals to me is that we can retain the original flight from NS1 that so many players are familiar with, but also add the depth of a shooting on the move style of gameplay with the press of a button.
  • EzekielEzekiel Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3006Members
    edited August 2010
    gonna have lerks flying into walls all over the place until people get used to that (still a good idea though).
  • ChaosIncChaosInc Join Date: 2010-07-28 Member: 73283Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1794982:date=Aug 18 2010, 06:52 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Aug 18 2010, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794982"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...

    Ok just ignore the last 2 ideas :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    What to you mean those are the best ideas I have herd yet. Hell I would pay 20 more dollars for the teeth cleaning thing.
  • Mkk_BitestuffMkk_Bitestuff Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12407Members
    I say make the lerk flight just like it was in 3.2 for starters, and improvements can be made from there if deemed necessary. Also, I totally support bringing back bite instead of spikes. Lerks are probably the hardest alien to hit because of the high level of inconsistent movement they can execute when in the hands of a skilled player, all while being able to deal damage with bite. With spikes, lerks will simply be doomed to camp vents and perch on ceilings.
  • TigTig Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    <!--quoteo(post=1794903:date=Aug 18 2010, 02:10 AM:name=Rulgrok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Aug 18 2010, 02:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->when gliding moving the mouse changes pitch and yaw<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    +1
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members
    I don't know if the game maintains a sense of momentum. If it does, then perhaps as follows:

    Tap space-bar: Glide mode activated, adds momentum in direction depending on what key is held as follows:
    w: momentum is 20 degrees above current mouselook.
    s: momentum is 20 degrees below current mouselook.
    a: momentum is 10 degrees left of current mouselook.
    d: momentum is 10 degrees right of current mouselook.
    no key held: momentum is in exact direction of mouselook.
    *degrees and amount of momentum applied will need to be modified in testing.

    Holding space: maintains glide mode. Mouselook has no effect on movement. Direction changes during glide as follows:
    w: direction adjusts over current direction, full loop possible.
    s: direction adjusts blow current direction, full loop possible.
    a: change in direction to right begins to increase as long as a is held, with view banking as magnitude of change increases, at max, view is 90 degrees. Releasing a begins reduction of change in direction, with view reversing until level/and direction is no longer changing.
    d: as above, but to left.
    Going from a to d or vice versa means the magnitude increase in direction pressed is added to the normal reduction in increase from the direction released.
    In addition, gravity works, downward momentum is continually increased, though at a slower rate then w/o glidemode (aka falling)

    Releasing space: glidemode maintained for a moment.. long enough to allow the space-bar to be pressed again without losing velocity. After that, gravity takes over, character falls in parabolic/physX defined arc

    Other natural physics should apply: moving in a donward direction increases momentum in that direction, moving up decreases it, etc.

    Essentially this means no hovering -- whether with or without flapping, and regardless of scorpian presence.. Lerks are not hummingbirds.

    However, it does allow you to fly straight up, and then slowly parachute down.
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
    It seems some of the posters have supported the idea of being able to hold a key that would unlock mouselook from direction control. This would be a sort of glide-look I guess you could call it. While I support the idea of being able to fire in a direction different from your flight vector/heading, I'd much rather maintain some flight control during this aiming.

    The main reason for this is that a glide-look would force the player to have a straight flight path during any aiming. I'd much rather allow for a limited amount of horizontal view change (about 30 degrees or so) when A or D is held. This way you can aim off to one side while still changing your vector/heading. This would allow a player to do a pseudo flying strafe-like movement while aiming at a target. This is very similar to the FPS staple of circle-strafing a target, just with less than 90 degree strafing and while flying.

    This would enable a lerk to use S-turns to close in on a marine while firing barrages of spikes at the apexes of those turns. The lerk is able to target the marine without having to fly straight. This is preferable to me over a glide-look that locks your direction/heading into a straight flight-path.

    I'm very willing to try either method, but I like the smooth curves of flight using a limited strafe-like control.
  • CerebralCerebral Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17689Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1795015:date=Aug 18 2010, 05:16 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 18 2010, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems some of the posters have supported the idea of being able to hold a key that would unlock mouselook from direction control. This would be a sort of glide-look I guess you could call it. While I support the idea of being able to fire in a direction different from your flight vector/heading, I'd much rather maintain some flight control during this aiming.

    The main reason for this is that a glide-look would force the player to have a straight flight path during any aiming. I'd much rather allow for a limited amount of horizontal view change (about 30 degrees or so) when A or D is held. This way you can aim off to one side while still changing your vector/heading. This would allow a player to do a pseudo flying strafe-like movement while aiming at a target. This is very similar to the FPS staple of circle-strafing a target, just with less than 90 degree strafing and while flying.

    This would enable a lerk to use S-turns to close in on a marine while firing barrages of spikes at the apexes of those turns. The lerk is able to target the marine without having to fly straight. This is preferable to me over a glide-look that locks your direction/heading into a straight flight-path.

    I'm very willing to try either method, but I like the smooth curves of flight using a limited strafe-like control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I suggested this. :) Probably some other people did as well.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Hehe a built-in tailgunner? However this does sound like the awesomely bad plane control from BF1942. Where if you wanted to look around you had to enable mouselook, while being unable to control your plane... It works, but in the end it gives you a very predictable straight flightpath...
  • RulgrokRulgrok Join Date: 2007-04-04 Member: 60559Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1795015:date=Aug 18 2010, 05:16 PM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 18 2010, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1795015"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems some of the posters have supported the idea of being able to hold a key that would unlock mouselook from direction control. This would be a sort of glide-look I guess you could call it. While I support the idea of being able to fire in a direction different from your flight vector/heading, I'd much rather maintain some flight control during this aiming.

    <b>The main reason for this is that a glide-look would force the player to have a straight flight path during any aiming. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If the maps continue to be small corridors this will provide very troublesome and more often than not (correcting for both flight and timing) for aiming the spikes on an enemy will probably result into smacking into a wall and getting shot as you try to recover and get a new heading.

    Treat like how a flying object in space would with pitch and yaw - barrel rolls would be interesting also but when gliding pitch and yaw would be preferable. This would be so as a lerk you would go in lay down some quick spikes/spores and circle on out go through a few rooms and come back to do it again.

    Aiming to shoot and having a secure flying path is a very hard thing to do at the same time for one person. That is why you rarely(if never at all) have seen a fighter jet that has multidirectional aiming without a second person in the plane to properly target and use.
  • KhyrisKhyris Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70728Members
    The original NS1 flight was pretty good except for the vertical inertia... Horizontal flight had no real max speed as +forward was cumulative, but vertical did because there was no real command for adding vertical momentum outside of water. I'm assuming this meant the mechanics was done by simply removing the gravity effect from the player while the jump key was held. Just need to make sure +forward adds velocity to the actual view true vector rather than dot product of the horizontal plane. This means flapping while diving would INCREASE the speed of your dive instead of stopping it as the old way would.
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
    Maybe my posts are too cryptic or something, but I was trying to say that a glide-look is NOT what I would want. I would much prefer something much closer to a small strafe while flying. Holding A or D would just shift the x-hair horizontally to one side or the other a fixed degree angle (probably about 30 degrees), basically.

    This would be very similar to how when you push A or D as a marine you move in a direction 90 degrees off from your x-hair. Due to it being flight, a more limited strafe of somewhere about 45-30 degrees would seem pretty natural. That way you could sort do a circle-strafe like attack with rapid-fire spikes as a lerk.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this does sound like the awesomely bad plane control from BF1942. Where if you wanted to look around you had to enable mouselook, while being unable to control your plane... It works, but in the end it gives you a very predictable straight flightpath...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is what I want to avoid. It removes control of flight from the mouse.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    True but we do need flaps (air brakes) as well... S+flapping?
  • frostymoosefrostymoose Join Date: 2003-09-12 Member: 20799Members
    edited August 2010
    3.x lerk flight was pretty great.
  • ryknow69ryknow69 Join Date: 2008-03-24 Member: 63952Members
    S+Flapping=Immediate air brake

    S=Slow Forward speed(minor brake)

    sounds simple
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