NS2: Classic and Advanced versions
rofldinho
Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68259Members
Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68259Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Would it be worthwhile having the best of both worlds?</div>As per the title: Would it be good having two games in one so to speak, or UWE releasing 3.2 with the Spark engine as a seperate free game? Sort of like Valve having Half Life 2 with the new Source engine, and then releasing Half Life: Source. I'm just looking for discussions of the pro's and cons here rather than suggesting or proposing anything.
So, to get started, by "NS2: Classic version", I mean a version of NS2 with the same gameplay found in NS1 v3.2, i.e. without the MAC's/builders and with all the abilities/structures present in NS1 3.2, such as devour, web, lerk biting, single commander (none for aliens), gorge/marine only build, offense chambers, etc etc. And by "NS2: Advanced", I mean this new version that UWE are developing, with all the changes, new structures, weapons/abilities, alien commander, etc etc (maybe Advanced is a bad name, I can't think of a good term at the moment).
Once the engine and networking is fixed, would it be difficult to recreate NS3.2 within Spark? Would it be in the community's interests given how many of us loved NS 3.2? And given all the work for NS 3.2 was already done, with years of development from version 1, would it make NS2 a better product if we had the option of playing both "games" within this shiny new Spark engine?
Conversely, are there reasons for not having two versions of a game within the same game? Would it cause a split in the community, or would it just give the same players the option to play whatever version they fancied? Would it detract from encouraging players from switching to the new version the developers are looking to create, or would it just make the game a better product overall if the choice was there?
What do you think?
So, to get started, by "NS2: Classic version", I mean a version of NS2 with the same gameplay found in NS1 v3.2, i.e. without the MAC's/builders and with all the abilities/structures present in NS1 3.2, such as devour, web, lerk biting, single commander (none for aliens), gorge/marine only build, offense chambers, etc etc. And by "NS2: Advanced", I mean this new version that UWE are developing, with all the changes, new structures, weapons/abilities, alien commander, etc etc (maybe Advanced is a bad name, I can't think of a good term at the moment).
Once the engine and networking is fixed, would it be difficult to recreate NS3.2 within Spark? Would it be in the community's interests given how many of us loved NS 3.2? And given all the work for NS 3.2 was already done, with years of development from version 1, would it make NS2 a better product if we had the option of playing both "games" within this shiny new Spark engine?
Conversely, are there reasons for not having two versions of a game within the same game? Would it cause a split in the community, or would it just give the same players the option to play whatever version they fancied? Would it detract from encouraging players from switching to the new version the developers are looking to create, or would it just make the game a better product overall if the choice was there?
What do you think?
Comments
Problem solved.
Probably easy enough to do using LUA.
while I don't really like the tone, I agree with the sentiment. Let the modders do it.
What do you think?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
short version; let the modders do it!
long version; releasing two different games hast some serious disadvantages imo, here my favorite two arguments:
<ul><li>the devs would have to <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->code two games for the price of one<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, thus ruining their calculations. Don't forget, they probably want to make a living, too</li><li>new players to NS would be <!--coloro:#ffff00--><span style="color:#ffff00"><!--/coloro-->seriously confused to have two separate games<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. just imagine the forum posts.....</li></ul>
As too the let the moders do it, god no. Fortress Forever tried it when TF2 was coming out. They even produced one of the best mods I have ever seen and it still flopped on its face. If you want to play NS1 on spark then write your favorite UWE employ and beg or give up.
p.s. sorry for the poor english.
As too the let the moders do it, god no. Fortress Forever tried it when TF2 was coming out. They even produced one of the best mods I have ever seen and it still flopped on its face. If you want to play NS1 on spark then write your favorite UWE employ and beg or give up.
p.s. sorry for the poor english.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fortress Forever failing had nothing to do with modders, it had to do with their devs taking their sweet ass time and finally releasing just before TF2 hit the shelves.
If a NS2 mod that replicates what made NS famous segments a community then it's the mass deviation of NS2 to blame, not the "classic" mod itself. There's absolute no reason why people should make a NS classic mod, NS2 shouldn't be so vastly different. Starting to feel like a parrot on these boards. Instead of helping to fix and work on technical issues we're instead trying hard to rid the fear of NS2 losing it's integrity. Anyone else not seeing the blatant signs that are cropping up as the Alpha goes along? I don't want this to turn into a big case of: "I told you so". ><
I think a mod version will probably come out eventually, but not before a combat and a seige mode amoung others (in fact I have an idea I want to try, neither of these but still a new game mode).
Edit: also I think there should be three tabs for the game, Vanilla, Gameplay Mods, Total Conversion Mods.
Because there's quite a difference in those last too.
1. Remove power grid dynamic infestation. This should be simple as were are already at that state.
2. Remove AC
a. Stop drifter spawn. Very little time
b. Make hive unusable. Very little time
c. Add new build menu for gorge. Framework for this is all in the evo menu their just need to make new option sprites.
Some time not much
d. Rework resourcing model. Could be time consuming or not depending on how the current one is impended.
3. Remove mac. simple
4. Re-introduce MC building and item drop. My guess is that will be in the game in some form by beta any way. If not
possible time consuming.
5. Not sure what the final tech tree is going to look like but it seem likely that at the very lest they would not need to make art
asserts for restoring the original NS buildings. However Possible time consuming if they go a very different direction with
the NS2 tech tree then it looks like they will.
6. So far it seem like all the classes and all but like 4 abilities are going to make it into NS2 so not much work in restoring
those.
7. Which leaves the only truly hard part and that is making maps which really can be no harder than making maps for any
other game mode, and frankly should be a lot simpler as they will already have the textures from the NS2 maps and the
concept and gray box lay out from the NS1 maps.
All in all I find it highly unlikely that UWE would find making a classic mode any harder or more costly than making a co_ mode. I might be wrong the development I do has nothing to do with 3D graphics or netcode. So there could be a lot of development time I am missing or misunderstanding. All in all the only real concern that I can see is if it would fatally fracture the NS community. I don’t think it would, but really there is no way to tell without releasing the thing. However a few well run polls might give inkling as to what would happen.
There is however a clear interest in a classic game mode. So I would image would make all these details would be worth looking into in depth.
No,
The problem here is that there are purists and reformists. NS/NS2 is slowly becoming a debate of religion and not gaming.
Some times games change from version to version. There are some changes you will like, and some you won't. They are trying to make NS2 a better game than it was initially.
Will this succeed in everyones minds? No
Can you please all of the people all of the time? No
The problem is that there is a good chance most of the community will have a knee jerk reaction to the changes and will just instantly revert to the previous build without even giving the new one a chance. People/Human Beings as a whole are usually afraid of change and we can't simply give in to this. Imagine where gaming as a whole would be if we just always gave into this. The mentality you and any of the other purists share is damaging to the creative process and detrimental to the gaming community as a whole because it just leads to bland sequels.
You wish to play to the masses before they have a chance to actually try the new game and possibly love it and then the thing you worship and the future you wanted it to hold for you will not come to fruition.
Let people play the new version for a while and if enough people don't like it, a classic mod is bound to show up and we'll all go back to playing the original NS but with much prettier graphics. Will I complain? No, because I love NS. But I refuse to stifle the creativity of the Unknown Worlds team simply to cater to the cowering masses.
it's going to have to be a mod, but i bet that NS2 will have so many new features, only the most stubborn players will stick with it.
NS2 is NS2, it should be a different and better game, including an NS1 mode is a waste of time, no matter how much time it might take, it could be better spent on productive things.
Frest player intake and better functionality on modern computers sound great. In addition, a dedicated team could develop the NS1 gameplay even further.
That being said, I'm first and foremost interested on NS2. If it turns out to be something I don't enjoy much, I might look back to NS1.
Thank you, It's a good point even if its the usual dismissive tone that I'm used to seeing on these forums.
There is too few people left for NS1 and the development for NS1 ceased years ago. NS1 just need a fresh look, it's nothing wrong with the gameplay itself. When the developers left NS, so did the players. We can't really play in Europe anymore, there's like 2 servers left, and they got custom maps (ugh!) and they're both maxed with plugins. I consider no _active_ servers left in Europe "NS1 v3.2", it's "NS1 v3.2 Modified Like ######". My only solution will be to play in America on the 2-3 servers that still run classic, with 150 ping.
"
NS2 will bring a fresh look to the game, and a lot of new players (and old ones). A NS1 mod of this game, would "steal" a lot of players from the originally NS2, and there will be much more players to play with and servers to play on. Also, a mod like this, I'm pretty sure would be up to date and supported for a long time.
The problem here is that there are purists and reformists. NS/NS2 is slowly becoming a debate of religion and not gaming.
Some times games change from version to version. There are some changes you will like, and some you won't. They are trying to make NS2 a better game than it was initially.
Will this succeed in everyones minds? No
Can you please all of the people all of the time? No
The problem is that there is a good chance most of the community will have a knee jerk reaction to the changes and will just instantly revert to the previous build without even giving the new one a chance. People/Human Beings as a whole are usually afraid of change and we can't simply give in to this. Imagine where gaming as a whole would be if we just always gave into this. The mentality you and any of the other purists share is damaging to the creative process and detrimental to the gaming community as a whole because it just leads to bland sequels.
You wish to play to the masses before they have a chance to actually try the new game and possibly love it and then the thing you worship and the future you wanted it to hold for you will not come to fruition.
Let people play the new version for a while and if enough people don't like it, a classic mod is bound to show up and we'll all go back to playing the original NS but with much prettier graphics. Will I complain? No, because I love NS. But I refuse to stifle the creativity of the Unknown Worlds team simply to cater to the cowering masses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with much of the points you've made. Change does result in people becoming uncomfortable.
However, I do think you're under-estimating other gamers here. Sure, some players might stick to the classic version because they're resistant to change, but not all. It is possible to like two different versions, and as a guess I'm sure there'll be plenty of players who'll switch between the two as they feel. It's not a case of "one or the other".
Furthermore, I'm under no allusions that the newer NS2 gameplay will easily triumph in terms of popularity if both versions were available - after all, that's where we'll get newer gameplay, abilities, structures, that will continue to be developed by UWE.
The problem here is that there are purists and reformists. NS/NS2 is slowly becoming a debate of religion and not gaming.
Some times games change from version to version. There are some changes you will like, and some you won't. They are trying to make NS2 a better game than it was initially.
Will this succeed in everyones minds? No
Can you please all of the people all of the time? No
The problem is that there is a good chance most of the community will have a knee jerk reaction to the changes and will just instantly revert to the previous build without even giving the new one a chance. People/Human Beings as a whole are usually afraid of change and we can't simply give in to this. Imagine where gaming as a whole would be if we just always gave into this. The mentality you and any of the other purists share is damaging to the creative process and detrimental to the gaming community as a whole because it just leads to bland sequels.
You wish to play to the masses before they have a chance to actually try the new game and possibly love it and then the thing you worship and the future you wanted it to hold for you will not come to fruition.
Let people play the new version for a while and if enough people don't like it, a classic mod is bound to show up and we'll all go back to playing the original NS but with much prettier graphics. Will I complain? No, because I love NS. But I refuse to stifle the creativity of the Unknown Worlds team simply to cater to the cowering masses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the biggest thing your not factoring in here is that a lot people have already bought this game. When the majority of us bought this game the web page make it look like it was going to be a lot closer in play style to NS1 then it turning out to be. When I bought this game the information available on the web page and in the news archives told me the following.
Lerks where going to shoot not bite, and they could hang from ceilings.
Gorges could slide down stairs.
When a hive was placed it would make the area near by dynamically change to look more alien.
All fairly minor stuff. However their were a lot of major changes that were only detailed in the forums that I misted. Like:
Multiple commanders
Alien commanders
That dynamic creep was anything more than a visual thing.
Power grids
simplified maps
These are huge game play and style changing things that were not well publicize. These are also things I would not have payed money for the development of. Hell a lot of people on these forms still don't seem to know what all is coming, the lerk flight thread is full of lerk chomp talk and about 80%(totally made up) of the people in the marines to build discussion had no idea about the changes coming to map style/size or about the power grid system.
Is this like a religious debate, sure but only if its a common thing for people to join church expecting to become a Catholic only to find out they have some how become Jewish.
<!--quoteo(post=1794928:date=Aug 18 2010, 11:50 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 18 2010, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really don't see the point, if it's just NS1 you want you can play NS1 and get NS1, why would you play an imperfect port of NS1 when you can already go play NS1? Furthrmore why would you PAY for an imperfect NS1 port when you can play NS1 for free?
NS2 is NS2, it should be a different and better game, including an NS1 mode is a waste of time, no matter how much time it might take, it could be better spent on productive things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could easily make NS2 better with out making in a brand new game. I mean once power grids are in we are going to a basically have brand new game that happens to be set in the same universe. Does this mean it can't be a good game no, but it could be a game that many of us don't want to play.
Its like you went to the store to buy Moder warfare 3 and found out it was just Battlefield: Bad company 2 in a Moder warfare 3 box. Some people would be very upset and understandable so.
Lerks where going to shoot not bite, and they could hang from ceilings.
Gorges could slide down stairs.
When a hive was placed it would make the area near by dynamically change to look more alien.
All fairly minor stuff. However their were a lot of major changes that were only detailed in the forums that I misted. Like:
Multiple commanders
Alien commanders
That dynamic creep was anything more than a visual thing.
Power grids
simplified maps
These are huge game play and style changing things that were not well publicize. These are also things I would not have payed money for the development of. Hell a lot of people on these forms still don't seem to know what all is coming, the lerk flight thread is full of lerk chomp talk and about 80%(totally made up) of the people in the marines to build discussion had no idea about the changes coming to map style/size or about the power grid system.
Is this like a religious debate, sure but only if its a common thing for people to join church expecting to become a Catholic only to find out they have some how become Jewish.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Show me where they said "These are the only changes are are making" or "The game will be exactly the same except for a few minor changes" and I'll agree with you. If they didnt' say that anywhere then you assumed what you wanted to be true would be true and that is a bad thing to do.
Maybe UW shouldn't have offered pre-orders so early but they needed to fund their game so they did what they had to do. I hope everyone learns their lesson about paying for something before it's done.
<!--quoteo(post=1794993:date=Aug 18 2010, 08:16 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Aug 18 2010, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1794993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder how many people would really go back to NS1 once they've experienced the dynamic infestation and all that other stuff which isn't in the game or hasn't been perfected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Based on whats be said so far (and this is admittedly not much. I his highly possible they clarify/change how this system will work to make it much more attractive) that like asking how many people would go back to death match after playing CTF.
In all trueness though I am much more worry about the new map style/size/complexity they are going with this time around.
but all that beside the point. This thread is all about having a classic mode so that people can play death match or CTF as opposed to being pushed into one option. Two modes should (poll would be needed for verify this) result in more people having a good time.
Why do it now during instead of after lunch as a mod.
1. Building a game form the ground to to support a mode of play is less work then moding a finished product.
2. Keeping classic mode in the hands of UWE is a good thing. It will keep classic mode feeling classic and prevent the 1000 flavors of mostly classic that is likely to crop up if classic mode is left to the moders.
Contacted your lawyer.
OP: Split up the community even more? great idea.
I think the vast majority of us would stick with the new version of NS2. After all, that's what the developers will be supporting, updating, changing, refining, has new structures and gameplay, etc etc. Hence why I don't think there'd be a split in the community at all. NS2 Classic would just be a fun, less popular alternative to the main mode, nothing more imo.
If we were to discard NS's relatively steep learning curve, UWE could even implement the classic mode on a simple map-change basis. Sort of like how Payload and Control Point maps are different modes of play in TF2 - if the developers wanted it this way, you could have nsc_map (instead of ns_map) for example, and with the classic maps you get the change in gameplay, structure, etc etc.
This might confuse newer players, but a good tutorial would solve that.