Why so low Tech?

SlavakSlavak Join Date: 2005-02-19 Member: 41765Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Its the future, man.</div>I was thinking as I was making breakfast (as you do)

Why are the marines still using projectile weapons and pump action shotguns?

We have colonised new planets and we don't have some kind of hand-held directed energy weapon?


Right at this moment we have fully automatic shotguns, commercial lasers that are dangerous to use, darpa's developing self guiding bullets, Their even testing a new laser based CIWS for ship based missile defence.


Why has weapons technology stagnated so much when everything else has proceeded forward so nicely?


I understand the game play and balance reasons, I'm more interested in the story behind it. It would be kinda overpowered if every TSA Frontiersmen had a portable, continuously firing skulk-melter.
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Comments

  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    You raise a good point.

    I would be interested to see some new weapon types but I dont want it to turn into unreal tournament. Theres something easy to understand and satisfying about the conventional weapons.
  • SlavakSlavak Join Date: 2005-02-19 Member: 41765Members
    edited July 2010
    And another thing, they have nanite technology.

    If I had control of matter on a molecular level like the TSA do there's not a power in the 'verse that could stop me.

    They could make armour that's harder than diamonds but flexible and yeilding.

    Power sources that could provide huge amounts of power for long periods of time.

    And, of course, said directed energy weapons.
  • WatchMakerWatchMaker Join Date: 2003-09-26 Member: 21233Members, Constellation
    edited July 2010
    Nano-technology isn't cheap; the TSA departments are.

    They'd send marines out armed with plastic cups and no.2 pencils if that loadout had won more fights.
  • ArrowheadArrowhead Join Date: 2005-03-04 Member: 43198Members
    I think even in the far future, projectile weapons will still be the most efficient way to deliver pain.
  • roCosroCos Join Date: 2009-06-04 Member: 67685Members
    edited July 2010
    whats wrong with a "full metal jacket"? it's effective, cheap, and mortal! :P

    <!--quoteo(post=1781175:date=Jul 21 2010, 12:07 AM:name=Arrowhead)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrowhead @ Jul 21 2010, 12:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think even in the far future, projectile weapons will still be the most efficient way to deliver pain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    oh, there are a lot more efficient ways to deliver pain... ;)
  • DrownDrown Underwater Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10392Members
    edited July 2010
    I'm pretty sure it's easily justifiable to say that the nanite cost of creating "armour that's harder than diamonds but flexible and yielding" is more than possible or acceptable in most situations. Anyway who's to say it already isn't like that... and skulk jaws are just that much tougher. The Hyena jaw is capable of crushing bones, turtles can bite at more than 1500 psi. So whose to say that armour harder than diamonds would matter much against a creature bred for survival and combat in even more adverse conditions than the Sahara.

    Why are they still using projective weapons, and not energy weapons? Well again it can easily be justified to come down to energy and nanite costs again. I wouldn't say that technology has stagnated at all, since we've been using projectile weapons for the past ten thousand years, and we still use them. The speed, shape and device used has changed, but pretty much nothing else.

    As to the laser beam comment... well, most of the environments the TSA have to deal with involve situations where high power laser beams could be rather a bad idea. If you miss with an incendiary shotgun to the side of your spaceship, it will probably be ok. Not so much with the beam weapon that can arc weld small moons.

    Plus, "there's something easy to understand and satisfying about conventional weapons".
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
    cuz beams are 90's
  • SlavakSlavak Join Date: 2005-02-19 Member: 41765Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1781184:date=Jul 20 2010, 05:24 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Jul 20 2010, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure it's easily justifiable to say that the nanite cost of creating "armour that's harder than diamonds but flexible and yielding" anyway who's to say it already isn't like that... and skulk jaws are just that much tougher. The Hyena jaw is capable of crushing bones, turtles can bite at more than 1500 psi. So whose to say that armour harder than diamonds would matter much against a creature bred for survival and combat in even more adverse conditions than the Sahara.

    Why are they still using projective weapons, and not energy weapons? Well again it can easily be justified to come down to energy and nanite costs again. I wouldn't say that technology has stagnated at all, since we've been using projectile weapons for the past ten thousand years, and we still use them. The speed, shape and device used has changed, but pretty much nothing else.

    As to the laser beam comment... well, most of the environments the TSA have to deal with involve situations where high power laser beams could be rather a bad idea. If you miss with an incendiary shotgun to the side of your spaceship probably will be ok<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    See, that's all I needed :P
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1781170:date=Jul 20 2010, 11:01 PM:name=Slavak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slavak @ Jul 20 2010, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781170"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And another thing, they have nanite technology.

    If I had control of matter on a molecular level like the TSA do there's not a power in the 'verse that could stop me.

    They could make armour that's harder than diamonds but flexible and yeilding.

    Power sources that could provide huge amounts of power for long periods of time.

    And, of course, said directed energy weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's what Heavy Armour was.

    The reason we're not disassembling the aliens directly is because of "nano-gridlock", which is the alien bacteria (technically the actual Kharaa) fighting the nanites on a teeny tiny scale; it takes a lot of the in-game res, which I forget what it is lore-wise, just to gain control for long enough to assemble a building, or a shotgun.

    Skulks et al are not actual mammals despite appearances, and for example are room-temperature so you can't see them with thermal imaging or what have you. I don't know if they had some similar natural defence against lasers/plasma (or if they would just adapt to it so rapidly it wouldn't be worth the effort), but I do know that the TSA don't exactly have a lot of cash - and kinetic weaponry is cheap and reliable, even in the future.

    I think the NS1 manual is still around somewhere, it has all sorts of neat explanations...
  • brownymasterbrownymaster Join Date: 2009-07-11 Member: 68110Members
    edited July 2010
    Conservation of mechanical and chemical energy seems to be a consistently good mechanic for weapons IMO.

    Also, what type of energy weapon would be feasible? Halo was able to get away with no energy weapons on the human side (besides a laser added later). Energy weapons seem inefficient considering they're usually heat based and not simply destructive. The aliens might have super heat resistant carapace and pretty resilient to electric pulses (electrified RTs/TFs kill extremely slow). Biological weapons don't work because they gain immune to them extremely fast.

    I could see maybe an energy flashbang of some sort or maybe a laser, but projectiles with real mass have always been effective, and it just might be that energy weapons require technology that just isn't suitable for small scale fighting (ie you need huge amounts of energy to carry around, and it might just not be practical to carry around a battery pack).
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    I think you need to look at it less like taking our existing world and moving forward in time, and thinking of it more as an alternate future universe. Stylistically there are a lot of choices made that work better for establishing the kind of look and feeling that we want for our sci fi setting. It doesn't just apply to the projectile weapons, but throughout the environments. Big clunky computer terminals and monitors don't realistically make sense, given the fact that current technology is getting smaller and slimmer every day, and everyone has flat screen tv's and iphones etc. But for the sorts of industrial environments we have sleek, tiny computers don't really fit.

    Nanotechnology is being developed already with the attempt making fabrics that can harden into body armor on the fly. Soldiers of the future might only need to wear a uniform and no body armor, but how cool does that look? Lasers and energy based weapons, while more "futuristic" feeling, lack the sort of grittiness and rawness that we want in NS.

    The main thing is developing an internal logic to the universe that is consistent and believable throughout that particular game/movie/etc., not that it necessarily has to conform to the rules of the "real world". You can see this same approach in plenty of other games and movies, such as Starcraft 2, for example.

    --Cory
  • DrownDrown Underwater Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10392Members
    Really what we need is someone to write something like...

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"A Marine's Guide to the 'Verse" Vol. 2

    When your Tesla-gun jams, it's a lot harder to fix (because it just turned your entire squad into mashed potatoes) than say fixing a jam in the shotgun.
    [...]
    Although we initially tried using high intensity laser weapons on the kharaa they were quite effective, but then a few months later at Altera they developed a carapace mutation that worked very much like a mirror and just reflected our beams back on the users. That's how Admiral Chuck lost his arm. Even limited use of the weapons were quickly countered in future encounters with some hefty losses because of those mistakes.
    [...]
    In the end conventional projective weaponry seems the most effective... nothing says die quite like making their organs into a salad with a shotgun.
    [...]
    Their best weapon, something we never expected and seems absurd even now is that they often just throw rocks. Which is what they did at Orion3. They just threw rocks at the colony from a distance of who knows how far. The ######s are clever, in it for the long-haul. Did you know a skulk can survive in vacuum for over a decade in a hibernation state? Oh yeah, those rocks were the size of football fields.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Just how do you want to create a super battery with nano tech alone?
    A hydrogene cell fueled by hydrogene and oxygen in the air you say? I say goodbye to your atmosphere.

    And to the lasers and stuff, I'd say it does take less than three generations of kharaa to adapt with a crystaline sub armor structure that reflects and fractures the coherent light.

    Plasma, hm, ok, that might work, but its dangerous as hell as one shot missed could mean the reactor of the base / ship is hit.
    Tchernobyl in space, baby.

    Also, the kharaa are a cluster of bacteria, and bullets inject small doses of nanites to fight them, which also prevents the damage from heal up instantly; any healing they have is caused by bacteria overwhelming the nanites in their body.
    Do that with a laser... One non leathal hit and they scurry away, letting them analyze the damage and adapt like said above.
  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Members, Constellation
    edited July 2010
    Sometimes good implementations just don't change much. Why do you still drive a car? Thats SOO 19th century!

    Its simply that it wouldn't be fun if you were invincible. The Alien movies had to have bad things happen for them to be enjoyable, there had to be a struggle... there had to be a reason for them to last longer than 10 minutes. Same with a game.
  • ZimbuTheMonkeyZimbuTheMonkey Join Date: 2010-07-14 Member: 72359Members
    Because it's a video game.
  • SlavakSlavak Join Date: 2005-02-19 Member: 41765Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1781198:date=Jul 20 2010, 06:00 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 20 2010, 06:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just how do you want to create a super battery with nano tech alone?
    A hydrogene cell fueled by hydrogene and oxygen in the air you say? I say goodbye to your atmosphere.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090320173859.htm" target="_blank">Nanotech Batteries For A New Energy Future</a>

    That's the concept behind it, take something like that and make it smaller. Smaller cells leads to higher energy density.


    I remember the old NS manual. Does anyone have it? I'm keen to read it again.
  • NecroNecro &lt;insert non-birthday-related title here&gt; Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1118Members
    tbh i'd like to see projectiles as the primary weapon, as was said due to costs but somewhere up the techtree some kind of energy based weapon, to show that the technology is there but is just really expensive and is only brought out when all else fails.
  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Members
    edited July 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1781175:date=Jul 20 2010, 06:07 PM:name=Arrowhead)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrowhead @ Jul 20 2010, 06:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think even in the far future, projectile weapons will still be the most efficient way to deliver pain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think you are severely underestimating what cool weapons the future can bring. Even the marines in Aliens had caseless light-armor-piercing exploding projectiles [which have been around forever it seems]! The "smartgun" could track targets like a real-life aimbot [although aircraft and boats already possess this in various form factors NOW... but their's no handheld version yet], and in a cut scene they had Hudson mentioning their were energy weapons in the Suloco's armory).

    Look, i'm about to weaponize the phase gate technology [gimme a second... THERE].. Now i can teleport 50% of the onoses ass into orbit! What's he gonna do now, besides spew out hundreds of gallons of blood on the floor and die!
  • FehaFeha Join Date: 2006-11-16 Member: 58633Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1781198:date=Jul 21 2010, 12:00 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 21 2010, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781198"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, the kharaa are a cluster of bacteria, and bullets inject small doses of nanites to fight them, which also prevents the damage from heal up instantly; any healing they have is caused by bacteria overwhelming the nanites in their body.
    Do that with a laser... One non leathal hit and they scurry away, letting them analyze the damage and adapt like said above.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    This is probably the best reason for projectile weapons to be used.

    High velocity rounds hit the kharaa body to penetrate the armor, then when inside the body the nanites that the bullet is made off start to fight the bacteria, and if enough bullets is pumped into this creature they will spread in the body tearing down necesary "muscles", causing it to seem dead to the humans, and then slowly killing the lifeform by replicating nanites by killing the bacteria.

    Or something similar.
  • SilversideSilverside Join Date: 2010-04-09 Member: 71276Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1781205:date=Jul 20 2010, 06:21 PM:name=Necro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Necro @ Jul 20 2010, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tbh i'd like to see projectiles as the primary weapon, as was said due to costs but somewhere up the techtree some kind of energy based weapon, to show that the technology is there but is just really expensive and is only brought out when all else fails.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Sounds like you are perfectly describing the siege cannon, or MASC as it is now known. The MASC costs a lot, is brought out only when the Kharaa structures cannot be broken otherwise, and is some kind of energy based (definitely not projectile) weapon.

    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2008/8unknown_worlds_videocast_4" target="_blank">Videocast about the MASC</a>

    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2008/10/happy_halloween_2008_and_masc_renders" target="_blank">MASC Renders</a>
  • JimydJimyd Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13289Members
    edited July 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1781195:date=Jul 20 2010, 03:49 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jul 20 2010, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you need to look at it less like taking our existing world and moving forward in time, and thinking of it more as an alternate future universe. Stylistically there are a lot of choices made that work better for establishing the kind of look and feeling that we want for our sci fi setting. It doesn't just apply to the projectile weapons, but throughout the environments. Big clunky computer terminals and monitors don't realistically make sense, given the fact that current technology is getting smaller and slimmer every day, and everyone has flat screen tv's and iphones etc. But for the sorts of industrial environments we have sleek, tiny computers don't really fit.

    Nanotechnology is being developed already with the attempt making fabrics that can harden into body armor on the fly. Soldiers of the future might only need to wear a uniform and no body armor, but how cool does that look? Lasers and energy based weapons, while more "futuristic" feeling, lack the sort of grittiness and rawness that we want in NS.

    The main thing is developing an internal logic to the universe that is consistent and believable throughout that particular game/movie/etc., not that it necessarily has to conform to the rules of the "real world". You can see this same approach in plenty of other games and movies, such as Starcraft 2, for example.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But I want my codpiece form-fitting.
  • Corporal_FortierCorporal_Fortier Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46079Members, Constellation
    I've yet to see a Kharaa that can outsmart bullets.
  • StinkyStinky Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63182Members
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1781254:date=Jul 21 2010, 03:45 AM:name=Silverside)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silverside @ Jul 21 2010, 03:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds like you are perfectly describing the siege cannon,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think it was sound-based actually...
  • RobotsNeedLoveRobotsNeedLove Join Date: 2007-12-30 Member: 63297Members
    Because no one will want to play Kharaa if the Marines all aimbot, wallhack and God Mode.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1781226:date=Jul 21 2010, 02:38 AM:name=FocusedWolf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 21 2010, 02:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1781226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Look, i'm about to weaponize the phase gate technology [gimme a second... THERE].. Now i can teleport 50% of the onoses ass into orbit! What's he gonna do now, besides spew out hundreds of gallons of blood on the floor and die!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What about the horrible accidents where personal is teleported instead of enemys?
    Try to explain that to the public media...
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    This raises a question:

    What happened to those official story fics that used to be on the NS website? Those were ###### amazing.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Six Days in Sanji is still there.
    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/world/background/" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/world/background/</a>
  • BRICEBRICE Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72453Members
    The more simple the equipment the more mass production friendly it is.
    Just looking at "estimated AK47's in circulation" right now 90+ million.
    Take those and add pistols shotguns etc.
    You will have a colonization arsenal that lasts you for decades meanwhile you develop future.
  • KhazModanKhazModan Join Date: 2003-04-14 Member: 15500Members, Constellation
    part of what makes this game epic is the grit. gritty weapons going boom boom or ratatatat. or w/e instead of what? a lazer or something?

    naw shotguns are solid. machine guns are solid, lazers seem weak. they have gone eactly in the direction they should have with this.

    not trying to make the point as if the game was real life. just saying bullets are cool gritty and whats makes NS a bit different. in terms of marine play.
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