Bunny Hopping

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  • PierreOfTheFrenchPierreOfTheFrench Join Date: 2010-01-08 Member: 69976Members
    edited July 2010
    I'm pretty sure I recall reading that bunny hopping is out, but there is a new skill based increased movement speed system as a replacement. I don't see what the big problem is, I think bunny hopping was annoying and took away from the immersion of the game. Just my opinion though :)
  • TheLordTheLord Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16258Members
    Bhopping should stay in NS2 imo -
    BUT it should be soft(!)-capped - meaning it should be easy to gain about 140% speed as an alien but very hard to gain more than 140% up to a maximum of lets say 160%... (125/140 for marines)

    Its just too much fun to drop it even when theres no logic behind it.. ;)
  • SyriquezSyriquez Join Date: 2005-01-29 Member: 38979Members
    Bunny hopping has always been an artifact of poorly-planned character physics in a game engine. Needing to rely on it as a crutch for balance is bad game design.
  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1776735:date=Jul 2 2010, 05:33 PM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 2 2010, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been confirmed Bunny-Hopping is not in the game for aliens or marines. Leap is a starting ability now, so expect your movement based skill to be dependent on this. Topic over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    thank god.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1776740:date=Jul 2 2010, 11:19 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 2 2010, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Practilly killing the game, I fear you are wrong but if you have something to backup your troll go ahead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    How is that a troll? He's stating that bunny hopping has been confirmed as out of the game (and it has; except perhaps for skulk where an alternate movement skill is expected). And he stated that skulks have leap as a base ability (which is also true)
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1776758:date=Jul 3 2010, 04:26 AM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 3 2010, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is that a troll? He's stating that bunny hopping has been confirmed as out of the game (and it has; except perhaps for skulk where an alternate movement skill is expected). And he stated that skulks have leap as a base ability (which is also true)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And I have yet to see "proof" , I was under the impression that skulk had bunny with leap and others lifeforms alternate one.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    Proof's on search somewhere (either on forum, blog, or twitter) so you're free to go ahead and look for your proof if you can't take our words for it.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1776735:date=Jul 2 2010, 05:33 PM:name=Slycaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Slycaster @ Jul 2 2010, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been confirmed Bunny-Hopping is not in the game for aliens or marines. Leap is a starting ability now, so expect your movement based skill to be dependent on this. Topic over.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Didn't that dev with the pig for an avatar confirm that you could bunny hop as a skulk?

    ps: name change?
  • Donner & BlitzenDonner & Blitzen Join Date: 2010-03-08 Member: 70879Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1776740:date=Jul 2 2010, 06:19 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jul 2 2010, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Practilly killing the game, I fear you are wrong but if you have something to backup your troll go ahead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Killing what game? NS1? Or NS2, the mechanics of which we haven't discovered yet?


    <!--quoteo(post=1776746:date=Jul 2 2010, 08:23 PM:name=Syriquez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syriquez @ Jul 2 2010, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping has always been an artifact of poorly-planned character physics in a game engine. Needing to rely on it as a crutch for balance is bad game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Quoted for truth.
  • DrownDrown Underwater Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10392Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1776762:date=Jul 2 2010, 10:16 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 2 2010, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't that dev with the pig for an avatar confirm that you could bunny hop as a skulk?

    ps: name change?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah, he said that skulks and only skulks would be able to bunny hop.
  • SlycasterSlycaster Limited Edition Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 24Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited July 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1776788:date=Jul 2 2010, 10:26 PM:name=Drown)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drown @ Jul 2 2010, 10:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, he said that skulks and only skulks would be able to bunny hop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This was disproven when Flayra stated "There are other means of skill-based movement in NS" when addressing bunny hopping.
    It is not in the game, see this post: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=109859&view=findpost&p=1775751" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1775751</a>
    Summary:

    <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><b>
    EOYS POST:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    Also about the non-randomness of hivespawns / relocates, it will only make every game be more similar to a point where "Every game is different" can't really be applied as before. I guess we'll see how it turns out, but it seems to me like the developers have a hard time realizing what made NS1 so popular in the first place. Making the game more accessable isn't necessarily only a good thing if the price you pay is too high, as I'm afraid it is this time. I realize you're going with something similar to a "easy to get into, hard to master" philosophy but by doing that you're taking away several elements that made people love your game in the first place:

    1. Randomness of games
    2. Epic Games (now made into shorter games)
    <!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro--><b>3. Bunnyhopping being part of being a succesful alien (now gone?)</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    4. Two completely different teams (now homogenized)
    5. Huge maps (now small maps for fast games)

    I mean really? Look at this list and ask yourself if you really think players want:

    1. Non-random games
    2. Short games without epic feel
    3. Conventional movement
    4. Two more similar teams
    5. Small maps
    <b>
    <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->FLAYRA'S RESPONSE:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    Not a lot of time to properly respond but:

    1. We can put in random spawns later (the game supports it) but for now we're focusing on doing the simplest thing so we can ship v1.0.
    2. We're not shortening the games from NS1.
    <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>3. We have different skill-based movement modes that aren't BH.</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    4. What makes you think the teams are similar in any way?
    5. NS1 maps were extremely difficult to learn and so yes, we've focused on making them less rambling and more coherent. This first map is a bit smaller then your average NS1 map, but I'm sure we'll have some nice big maps too.

    I believe that by having fixed locations for command stations and hives (which seemed to work well in NS1 for the aliens), that the game becomes more about territory control. This way it means not only do you need the resources to tech up, but that your tech requires more space and is harder to defend. This leads to multiple theaters of combat with different areas having different strategic value instead of the marines having all the structures in one room back at their base. I think it will work especially well with the power grid system, although that's currently not in the game due resource constraints.

    If any of these things don't work out as well as we expect we'll be able to change them as we go forward as well.
  • SlycasterSlycaster Limited Edition Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 24Members, NS1 Playtester
    <!--quoteo(post=1776762:date=Jul 2 2010, 09:16 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Jul 2 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ps: name change?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Hey Steve. Yeah, Cy is pretty ancient. Not really what I go by anymore across all gaming platforms. Needed to catch up with the times, kept the sig as a subtle reminder. :)
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    Considering that Flayra apparently wrote the brief response in a hurry, I think it could be interpreted in a few ways.

    For example:
    <ul>- Bhop is no more
    - Bhop is not a vital part of being a succesful alien due to the other movement methods, but it's still there
    - Some aliens have their bhop replaced with other movement methods</li></ul>

    I don't really know. I certainly hope they've got a good plan for this. At first they said they'll find alternative methods, then bhop got back in and now it could be gone again. I just hope they won't make too big compromises with it. The HL movement system has had a huge influence on my idea of enjoyable gaming, I'd hate to see it being replaced by something far less inspiring and challenging.
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
    I'd like to see Bhop gone and replaced with something else that's easier in the sense that it's less inane while still retaining the actual 'do you have the brains to use it right' part.

    Good example: Tribes 1 you could retain momentum and slide up and down hills like a... skiier if you demolished your spacebar. Not only did you have to know terrain and be able to 'see' your ski route but you had to be able to be retardedly fast on the spacebar. Many bhop 'vets' seem to confuse this idiotic mechanical input with the actual 'skill' part. In Tribes 2 they simply made it so holding down 'space' would slide you around, thereby allowing you to focus on what was important - directing your movement properly around terrain. This is akin to the actual 'skill' of bhop being the MOVEMENT, not the INPUT COMMANDS.

    Secondly, bhop is just retarded. I can take the frictionless sliding in Tribes because it was unique to that game. I can only take so many games where the primary method of locomotion for everyone and everything is to leap around like a gazelle (Ja, mein leapen!).

    Finally, I just want to see something *new* that everyone has to learn. I'm 100% convinced that the vast majority of players want BHop to stay in the game simply because they've already mastered that skill long ago, allowing them to leverage a <i>massive</i> advantage over newer players.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Holding spacebar to perpetually jump?
  • DrownDrown Underwater Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10392Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1776853:date=Jul 3 2010, 09:59 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 3 2010, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Holding spacebar to perpetually jump?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe it'll be like a mario jump! ;D
  • SlycasterSlycaster Limited Edition Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 24Members, NS1 Playtester
    edited July 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1776826:date=Jul 3 2010, 04:48 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jul 3 2010, 04:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering that Flayra apparently wrote the brief response in a hurry, I think it could be interpreted in a few ways.

    For example:
    <ul>- Bhop is no more
    - Bhop is not a vital part of being a succesful alien due to the other movement methods, but it's still there
    - Some aliens have their bhop replaced with other movement methods</li></ul>

    I don't really know. I certainly hope they've got a good plan for this. At first they said they'll find alternative methods, then bhop got back in and now it could be gone again. I just hope they won't make too big compromises with it. The HL movement system has had a huge influence on my idea of enjoyable gaming, I'd hate to see it being replaced by something far less inspiring and challenging.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Bacillus, it's not in the game. Flay would not spend time addressing "different" options that are not bhop if it was in the game. He would have stated if it was. He simply stated it this way to appease people who like skill based movement. And the chances are high that the skill based movement in NS2 is going to be aliens skill related (blinking, leaping, gorge sliding?) and not based upon ancient engine code exploitable problems.
  • DrownDrown Underwater Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10392Members
    Thanks for the clarification Sly! Glad to hear. =)
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    Meh, I guess so then. I've misunderstood stuff before, nothing new there.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
    edited July 2010
    That is very sad to hear, no game has done better movement yet and doubt UWE will either. NS2 is one of most anticipated game of mine, its sad to hear only bad things ;/

    edit; typos
  • yourbonesakinyourbonesakin Join Date: 2005-08-06 Member: 57682Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1776746:date=Jul 2 2010, 08:23 PM:name=Syriquez)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syriquez @ Jul 2 2010, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping has always been an artifact of poorly-planned character physics in a game engine. Needing to rely on it as a crutch for balance is bad game design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If the so-called artifact actually works, then it works. That's all that matters.

    Yeah, its bad game design, but NS1 was a modification. Can't really be helped. NS2 is an entirely different story. Bunny Hopping will probably be replaced with something better.
  • UnFazedUnFazed Join Date: 2007-02-26 Member: 60121Members, Constellation
    Ehh I really enjoy having Bhop as a skulk. Without Bhop skulks are sitting ducks dead in the water. yes they can surprise attack from the backside through vents but usually marines are seasoned enough on the maps that they know exactly where skulks are most likely to appear from in the start of the game.

    Bhopping for skulks is in my opinion an essential part to a skulks setup. I haven't play tested or checked out NS2 yet, just ordered it actually a day ago. I am pumped though for its release.

    Regardless, I hope at least in a skulks sense that there is something very similar to Bhopping at the start of the game before any aliens even are able to upgrade one lvl in combat or start gaining substantial res off killing marines in classic. That is what i mean about bhopping is that for skulks in the start of the game. It really helps get the Aliens going down the right path during a game whether its classic or combat.

    I just find it sad bhopping will be no more in NS2 as I am soo use to the play style of regular NS based off the HL engine. I find the quick fluid movements make for more intense games, movements are not all sluggish comparative to lets say CS Source or even some of the other more modern day FPS type games.

    To each is own. This is your engine and your game. I cannot argue about your decisions as I already payed for the game. I just hope other peoples and my constructive criticism is not falling on deaf ears which I know is no the case.

    Keep up the good work!!!! BTW get it released already!!!!

    Peace,
    UnFazed - Skulkie~Lerker
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1776889:date=Jul 3 2010, 10:57 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Jul 3 2010, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the so-called artifact actually works, then it works. That's all that matters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Define "works".

    In a game where map control and locations and timing is everything, I do find it pretty absurd that mappers have to take into account fixed speeds for every player class and then WILDLY variable speeds for another. Being the first to get to a certain area is extremely important, and we've all seen games where they can literally be decided by a series of events that happen mere seconds apart. The idiotic variation in speeds of skulks based simply on the ridiculous machinations of BHop is, literally, insanity.
  • UnFazedUnFazed Join Date: 2007-02-26 Member: 60121Members, Constellation
    edited July 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1776933:date=Jul 4 2010, 06:10 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Jul 4 2010, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Define "works".

    In a game where map control and locations and timing is everything, I do find it pretty absurd that mappers have to take into account fixed speeds for every player class and then WILDLY variable speeds for another. Being the first to get to a certain area is extremely important, and we've all seen games where they can literally be decided by a series of events that happen mere seconds apart. The idiotic variation in speeds of skulks based simply on the ridiculous machinations of BHop is, literally, insanity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Indeed about the skulks this can be and is true in most cases, but I have seen a whole mob of marines take out a large mob of skulks. I have watched someone solo 8 skulks in a row given shotgun right away. Even a good shot with lmg, pistol and then knife given no time to reload take out numerous skulks at a time.

    Not saying that bhopping is all that fair but honestly for skulks in the beginning I strongly feel that it's a necessity. Though understandable how the coders want to get away from Bhopping/HL1 engine feel as it can be very tedious and for the beginner/intermediate players bhopping in their game play is almost non existent.

    I guess I am just way to use to bhopping and or knowing how to. Playing Half-Life and Counter-Strike since retail and couple of years after that got into Natural Selection all are run on the HL1 engine which all have bhopping, whether you view it as a bug or part of the game. I am just stoked for NS2 when it finally gets released and I can bare with not having bhop. Maybe once people start modding/coding plugins maybe there can be a script that I can sit down and write for custom NS2 server so as to allow bhopping.


    Keep up the good work!!!! BTW get it released already!!!!

    Peace,
    UnFazed - Skulkie~Lerker
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Members
    Just curious, is there anyone who is against movement like bh, who actually knows how to do more than just the "gaining speed". I seriously cannot imagine NS1 without bh it would had been complete "flop" if you can say that about a mod. If the new movement is not as intuitive as currect, I doubt the game has a bright future.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    I know how to bunyhop, I actually like bunnyhopping as a skulk, but I still hope it leaves the game.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    If we really have to know who can bhop and who can't, it would be nice to give a little idea how much you can actually do it. I've seen people claiming they can hop while all they actually can do is a couple of strafe hops in a row. There's a world of difference between being able to inconsitently gain speed in ns_bhop hallway and being able to use it as an efficient and fluent gameplay feature.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    So this has turned into a skill showoff? It's a good thing I'm not the one claiming to be the average competitive player then, I don't feel like I have to prove anything. In any case, I think the main problem with bunnyhopping is how it's more or less essential to master before even beginning to enjoy NS. I think that advanced techniques should be advanced, not at the core of the gameplay.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    edited July 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1776941:date=Jul 4 2010, 03:14 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Jul 4 2010, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1776941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So this has turned into a skill showoff? It's a good thing I'm not the one claiming to be the average competitive player then, I don't feel like I have to prove anything. In any case, I think the main problem with bunnyhopping is how it's more or less essential to master before even beginning to enjoy NS. I think that advanced techniques should be advanced, not at the core of the gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No, I don't want to turn this into skill show off. However it's ridiculously difficult address any issues if people refuse to estimate and comment their own level of performance in any way, especially in an discussion which involves as many misconceptions and levels of use as bhop does. Almost every bhop thread end ups with participants first claiming they understand the role and mechanics and then contradicting it completely in their next sentence. This is one of the fundamental barrier between the two sides of almost bhop/movement mechanic discussion.

    I have no problem if I someone spends less time and thought on computer games than I do, it's very much understandable and strongly recommended. However, I'd appreciate if people understood that the game's learning curve rarely ends where they are at that point. It's damn annoying to try to discuss anything while people ignore the existence of any higher end content unless they are there themselves. Just see how bhop gets simplified into a single dimensional binary bug abuse by a lot of people in every thread like this.

    In short, being terrible at a computer game is nothing to be shamed of. Being completely oblivious to anything else but your way of playing the game isn't nice at all. It's good to express your viewpoint a little more informative way than just I do/I don't.
  • Cereal_KillRCereal_KillR Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1837Members
    Precisely my point. Isn't someone who knows how to bhop but wants it gone less " oblivious to anything else but your way of playing the game ".

    It's just that I feel that the problem isn't so much how bhop differentiates a good player from the bad, it's that hopping is pretty much a required skill to actually see the game for what it is.
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