ns2 mapping compared to ns1

taleden · April 2010

Hi all!

Years ago I dabbled with map making for NS1; I still have fond memories of Hammer, XP-Cagey's build tools, leaks, entities, overlays, wpolys, and all the rest.

I'm interested in getting back into mapping for NS2, and I'm wondering if any old-timers can give me a sense of how it differs from mapping for NS1. How does the Spark editor compare to Hammer? How does the new engine compare to the HL1 engine?

I haven't had a chance to actually open the editor yet (graphics card trouble), but I've watched all the tutorial videos and read the guidelines, so I know the things covered there: brushes are gone and we work directly with faces now, lighting is dynamic, maps don't need to be compiled anymore, the marine height changed slightly, etc.

Are there other fundamental differences in how the new engine works that affects the kinds of maps I can build?
Any big gotchas?
Does/will the new engine have ladders?
Trams/lifts/rotating-airlocks or any other moving geometry?
Programmable entities of any sort?
Skyboxes?
Are wpolys still a concern, or can I create as much detail as I have the patience for?
Is there still that business of texture lights being fullbright, making the edges of the texture look dumb, thus requiring overlays?

Thanks for any insight :)
-tal

The_Real_Quasar · April 2010

I've dabbled with both editors, though I lack the patience to actually make anything good in either. But I can answer a few of your questions:

Generally, the Spark editor is far quicker to work with than Worldcraft/Hammer. It's a very quick process to throw something together, and have a look at it in-game.
There are ladder models, although I'm not sure they're going to be usable - this has come up in other threads I believe. There's also not much in the way of working entities, so as yet no movable stuff is possible - although this will definitely be added later, as we've seen moving things in UWE-made maps. Skyboxes, again, haven't been implemented in the editor, but have been demonstrated in videos, as well as a map in the engine test.

As for texture lights - there's no such thing anymore. All lights are point lights.

That's about the extent of my knowledge. Not sure about polycount limits.

Lemming Jesus · April 2010

There's no map compiling. The light is all realtime, instead of the Halflife way of computing it when compiled. You build the level more like in a modeling program. You can create new vertexes and draw lines between them. There's a skybox entity but I haven't learned how to use it. The game only renders what it can see. Go into the engine test, turn on wireframe and you will see that anything hidden behind a wall or object disappears and the game builds and destroys the world as you walk around. You should be able to put as much detail as you want if you can break line of sight.

Skyforger2 · April 2010

The hardest thing for me was to get use to planes.

I found it really hard after being so use to Hammer.

Kouji_San · April 2010

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (taleden @ Apr 15 2010, 08:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>Are there other fundamental differences in how the new engine works that affects the kinds of maps I can build?
<span style="color:#f7941d">This editor is more like a sandbox editor, where you put down props to build your level, and of course still have the ability to build areas out of planes (as detailed or lowpoly as you want). The texturing needs a few more things, Hammer does a better job at that (treat as one, staying locked when flipping planes etc...)</span>
Any big gotchas?
<span style="color:#f7941d">- No compile time what so ever, everything you do is realtime!
- This engine cannot leak sir!</span>
Does/will the new engine have ladders?
Trams/lifts/rotating-airlocks or any other moving geometry?
<span style="color:#f7941d">Pre-alpha doesn't have them as of yet</span>
Programmable entities of any sort?
<span style="color:#f7941d">lua will probably handle those things</span>
Skyboxes?
<span style="color:#f7941d">3d cinematic skyboxes!</span>
Are wpolys still a concern, or can I create as much detail as I have the patience for?
<span style="color:#f7941d">not so much w-polies or e-polies anymore I think, it's more a limitation of amount of (shadowcasting) lights per area that affect the performance most</span>
Is there still that business of texture lights being fullbright, making the edges of the texture look dumb, thus requiring overlays?
<span style="color:#f7941d">Texture lights (on props and textures) use an alpha mask, making goldSRC style over bright textures no longer a problem :P</span></div>

One important thing to note is that Spark is lacking water, lava and transparent textures currently and will probably also lack these at final release. They did mention it might make a return if they have the time to add it. It had something to do with the rendering of real time lights not looking to spiffy on see trough stuff.

Despite the differences to Hammer, it somehow does feel similar in handling things. Visgroups vs layers is quite similar for instance. And movement in the 3d window feels like Hammer (with different keys) :P

Also Mendasp has a few time-lapse mapping vids, so ya can see the workflow on Spark
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/Mendasp" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/Mendasp</a>

taleden · April 2010

Thanks for the insight everyone :)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 16 2010, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1767322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'>One important thing to note is that Spark is lacking water, lava and transparent textures currently and will probably also lack these at final release. They did mention it might make a return if they have the time to add it. It had something to do with the rendering of real time lights not looking to spiffy on see trough stuff.</div>

I can live without lava and water, but no transparency is a real shame. Is there then no way to make nice-looking vistas onto inhospitable external environments? If we can't have glass or forcefields or something, we can't ever look into space, or into harsh planet landscapes.. every level will have to be on an earth-like planet or else entirely underground. Although I guess with the full set of "refinery" props and textures, maybe UWE's concept is for every leverl to be a refinery or a mine. :/

Kouji_San · April 2010

Oh there will be more themes in NS2, they are still working on more themes :P It's just we only get to play with the refinery/washed out/industrial themes.

I'm not certain if textures can have alpha transparency though, I think it's just fully transparent vs fully solid atm... someone will correct me if I'm wrong here :P

ghost in the shell · April 2010

I expect (hope) that at some point they add a noclip texture

Cruor · April 2010

Taleden, if you still haven't got past your graphics card hickups. You could allways download the free version of Google Sketchup <a href="http://sketchup.google.com/" target="_blank">http://sketchup.google.com/</a>. I believe Max mentioned he was inspired by how that program works so it is very similar to how Spark works.

Granted, it has a lot more tools than Spark at the moment. But for the basics like getting used to planes, drawing geometry by lines, extruding etc. it is very good training in before working with spark.

I don't know how your graphics card will handle Google Sketchup either tho but I do know it's not very demanding on the specs at least not with simple geometry.

Kouji_San · April 2010

Isn't Google Sketchup just using planes and textures with lighting to cast a few shadows? So I guess it would run on lower specs then Spark :P

ns2 mapping compared to ns1

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