Engine Questions

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  • BJHBnade_spammerBJHBnade_spammer Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42431Members
    edited March 2010
    after looking at the Friday update vid

    my only question is if it only renders what is close to you does that mean there will be a problem with teleporters or teleporting around the map

    as i recall there where some teleporters in ns1

    and how would a situation like that work?
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi! Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1759713:date=Mar 17 2010, 07:36 PM:name=BJHBnade_spammer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BJHBnade_spammer @ Mar 17 2010, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1759713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->my only question is if it only renders what is close to you does that mean there will be a problem with teleporters or teleporting around the map<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's only the 'vis' aspect. ie. what the player is looking at. Everything is still there all the same and works the same.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I guess he's worried that he'll have to load graphics for a few seconds whenever he phases across the map?
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    To me that sounds silly but okay, I'll get you to disprove yourself.

    Open your NS (or anything HL1 related), create a server with sv_cheats 1 and enable wireframe mode. Half-Life 2 is mat_wireframe x I believe and is similar.

    Run around and as you turn corners you will see the wireframe change to map different shapes of the areas being drawn, it's not as close or as accurate as that of the Spark engine video because it's related to brushes you shall see through the tiniest of gaps depending on visible leafs being drawn to show what you currently see in a scene.

    If in NS do this and phase and you'll notice no real lag etc. and you still get the same thing happening.

    A lot of game engines draw in such a similar way. If you had everything in the level being processed at the same time as just the wireframed mode, you'd lag like hell because it would eat up all your resources.

    That could confuse so hey, here's a collage showing you just how it works in HL2 and how you can see area's unrelated being drawn by the engine inefficiently and more so, the wireframe progessing like in the Spark video to show it isn't a problem and the hierarchical culling algorithm is slightly more efficient and better for your CPU and graphics card ;)

    <img src="http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9065/hl2collage2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    <img src="http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5900/hl2collage1.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1758835:date=Mar 11 2010, 08:17 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Mar 11 2010, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need to enclose outdoor areas.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You do if you don't want lerks flying off into infinity.

    Or can't lerks fly any more?
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    By that Insane means you can have an open sky.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    I mean that in a purely technical sense. You could, if you wanted, make an NS2 level that was just a single flat plane. I wouldn't recommend it though.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    You could do it with source, but I wouldn't advise it.
  • SekerSeker Join Date: 2007-03-06 Member: 60259Members
    No you couldn't as far as I know in source you still need to "seal the map" :P
  • monopolowamonopolowa Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Members
    in Source you will get compiler errors for leaks, but the map can still load. The reason maps had to be sealed in Source was so the compiler could remove all the extra faces of brushes that ended up "outside" the level. This would increase performance for two reasons: One, by removing unused faces from each solid brush, there's less data to keep track of. Two, if you have a leak the game has to decide which exterior faces can be "seen" by the player, because now the area outside the level is part of the same region as the area the player is in, leading to a drop in fps when you look at the leak region.

    Since Spark uses faces and not solid brushes, removing extra faces isn't necessary, and since the occlusion algorithms handle what you can see in real time, you wouldn't see a drop in performance by looking at the leak.

    Obviously you don't want to leave gaps in your level big enough for units to leave the "playable" region of your map, but there's not a technical reason to make sure every face lines up exactly to seal your level
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    I'd assume getting it almost exact or exact will be important. If it's not being compiled and the extra faces removed then for the purpose of the commander view, you'll need to keep neat creation and placement.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1760573:date=Mar 22 2010, 04:44 AM:name=monopolowa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (monopolowa @ Mar 22 2010, 04:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in Source you will get compiler errors for leaks, but the map can still load. The reason maps had to be sealed in Source was so the compiler could remove all the extra faces of brushes that ended up "outside" the level. This would increase performance for two reasons: One, by removing unused faces from each solid brush, there's less data to keep track of. Two, if you have a leak the game has to decide which exterior faces can be "seen" by the player, because now the area outside the level is part of the same region as the area the player is in, leading to a drop in fps when you look at the leak region.

    Since Spark uses faces and not solid brushes, removing extra faces isn't necessary, and since the occlusion algorithms handle what you can see in real time, you wouldn't see a drop in performance by looking at the leak.

    Obviously you don't want to leave gaps in your level big enough for units to leave the "playable" region of your map, but there's not a technical reason to make sure every face lines up exactly to seal your level<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Also vrad and vrad don't work without a sealed level, so you'd have no optimisation and no lighting, and if you look at the void it just renders the last thing present on the screen at that point, creating the hall of mirrors.

    So you could play a level with a seizure inducing sky, no lighting, and horrible FPS, but you could play it.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    Carrying over from a (thankfully) dead thread, will we be able to change level geometry and/or prop placement in-game, or otherwise in sense of generating procedural levels or content?
  • rdmlegendrdmlegend Join Date: 2010-03-24 Member: 71071Members
    Tried to search around for the answer but couldn't find it.


    How many units in Maya are equal to One foot in the Spark Editor?
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    I'd test that yourself. 1inch = 1 unit. 12 inches = 1 foot in the editor, to help you with your own testing and conversion.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1760889:date=Mar 23 2010, 09:20 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 23 2010, 09:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1760889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Carrying over from a (thankfully) dead thread, will we be able to change level geometry and/or prop placement in-game, or otherwise in sense of generating procedural levels or content?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well spawning props is required to make buildings, and as all the game code is in lua, that means lua can spawn props for you, as well as delete them.

    Most other dynamic elements of the game should also be modifiable because they need to be in order to be dynamic, so lights will need to turn on and off and particle effects need to be moveable and toggleable.

    The only real uncertainty is the brush geometry.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1761130:date=Mar 25 2010, 12:13 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 25 2010, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1761130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well spawning props is required to make buildings, and as all the game code is in lua, that means lua can spawn props for you, as well as delete them.

    Most other dynamic elements of the game should also be modifiable because they need to be in order to be dynamic, so lights will need to turn on and off and particle effects need to be moveable and toggleable.

    The only real uncertainty is the brush geometry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well... That seems kinda obvious now that you've said it.
  • TgaudTgaud Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67323Members
    Question to NS2 devs :

    Do you intend to add the 3D feature to NS2 (maybe post release) ?
    it's really fast to implement, and can give a real immersive dimension and lifetime to the game..

    So what's your opinion on this point ?
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    For some reason you're bringing up 3D support lately Tgaud and I can tell you, without being a dev, it's not going to be implemented. Things like water are not going to be implemented until after the release, I wouldn't expect 3D to be implemented at all in all honesty.
  • TgaudTgaud Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67323Members
    edited March 2010
    implementing 3D has a lot more additionnal value than water, and is really simple to implement.
    (directX do all the job, all dev need to do is to add option like hiding the crosshair, and little things like that).
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    Implementing 3D does nothing for the game.

    Implementing water opens up gameplay elements.
  • TgaudTgaud Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67323Members
    edited March 2010
    Implementing 3D does nothing ?

    _Great immersion (a skulk leaping on you...)
    _Better localization of players and objects, ability to see if an object is far or close

    Remember that you can localize the distance with an object with :
    _accommodation
    _parallax
    _geometrical perspective,
    _convergence
    _binocular disparity
    And that without 3D, the only way you can do that is by accomodation (mostly on movies), and geometrical perspective...

    Even old dx9 game like left4Dead has 3D support and it has proven to be an amazing marketting weapon.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1761785:date=Mar 30 2010, 05:35 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 30 2010, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1761785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Implementing 3D does nothing for the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It opens up marketing venues for very low effort investment. If NS2 engine is as flexible as UW have stated, supporting upstart technologies is one thing it could definitely make use of.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    Okay you got me.

    We don't need simple terrain creation. We don't need glass. We don't need water. We don't need the basics.

    Let's put 3D in and NS2 will be the best thing ever because it's got 3D.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    edited March 2010
    You're missing the point. 3D is very easy to implement, and provides actual tangible marketing and present feature return. While the other things you mention would be great to have and indeed somewhat expect from a modern engine, they are neither (they're hard to implement, have no marketing value, are not present in official gameplay).

    Also both glass and water (cosmetic) will be present at release.
  • TgaudTgaud Join Date: 2009-05-01 Member: 67323Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1761792:date=Mar 30 2010, 04:07 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 30 2010, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1761792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also both glass and water (cosmetic) will be present at release.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Are you sure ? I think i've heard it will be post release, cuz it needs a lot of works.



    Anyway, Glasses and water aren't really "basics".. i dont see any fun difference when there is water on map, or not.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1761792:date=Mar 30 2010, 03:07 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 30 2010, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1761792"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're missing the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1761793:date=Mar 30 2010, 06:11 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Mar 30 2010, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1761793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you sure ? I think i've heard it will be post release, cuz it needs a lot of works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    There were some mixed messages, but that should be about correct to the best of my recollection.

    <!--quoteo(post=1761790:date=Mar 30 2010, 05:58 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 30 2010, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1761790"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You're missing the post.
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    Please ask your questions on our Get Satisfaction page from now on!

    <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ns2feedback" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/ns2feedback</a>

    Thanks!
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