New Marine Tactic?

SycophantSycophant Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7092Members
edited November 2002 in Kharaa Strategy
<div class="IPBDescription">How can you counter it?</div> I played a few games (as alien) earlier tonight, and in two of them I was introduced to what appears to be a new marine tactic:

<b>Transferring the marine base to a hive</b>!! Maybe some people have seen this happen before, but tonight was the first time I've seen it.

The first was a decent-sized game (8v8), so half of them apparently headed straight for a hive. If it's clear, the commander sets a new command console in the hive and starts building up the base in that hive!! Aliens played normally, not expecting them to set up camp in our unbuilt hive. We didn't rush their original main, but we eventually went in and the place was nearly empty, except for the original command console and their default resource collector.

Needless to say, I was confused. I never even thought they'd have relocated to one of our hives. By the time we figured out what they did, they had a strong defense set up, and were in the process of trying to take our second hive spot.

It's incredibly demoralizing for the aliens to fight a battle to take the second hive point, then only to discover the marines have been camped in the third since 2 minutes into the game.

I'll admit, this tactic has it's downfalls:

<ul>1) If the aliens set up shop in the abandoned marine start, new marine players are as good as dead as soon as they spawn for the first time. Still, that's not a big deal.

2) Hives usually have direct vent access from at least one other hive. That provides a backdoor into the marine's new home.

3) Alien hivesight shows exactly where that hive is located. Again, not a big deal. Many players know the maps really well by now so they don't even need hivesight.

4) If the aliens rush the original main and punch through the small marine defense, aliens will almost certainly win. But then again, aliens will usually win with a successful rush even when the marines stay in their main.

<b>[edit] <i>regarding #4, that's assuming you take out the original marine start before they get to the hive</i> [/edit]</b></ul>

From game-start to game-end, the aliens can only hold two hives, at best. This completely prevents the late-game alien toys that many players count on to help them win (Onos, Bile Bomb, Xenocide, Spore Cloud, and Babblers). Granted, marine bases can sometimes be crushed with two-hive abilities, but it's certainly discouraging to <b>know</b> you'll never get the top abilities in that match.

I guess the best way to counter this tactic is to have the skulks check in on the hives periodically while they're harassing the marines. If they encounter a force moving towards a hive, alert the others. Hopefully one group of skulks can take down the base relocation before it gets built, while the other group takes out the marine main. With that many resources put towards transferring the whole base, it'll be very difficult for the marines to get themselves back to the point where they'd have any chance of winning.


  • merC1merC1 Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7345Members
    I am sorry to tell you this, but if the marines are smart u will have almost no chance of taking out that new base.

    If they go into a hive that they can stay in the back of the hive and defend from any skulks coming in. It will be like shooting fish in a barrel.

    The only reaosn that skulk rushes work in the first place, is because :

    a. lots of marines are right at the entrance.
    b. are only looking at the main entrance and have forgetten about the vent entrance.
    c. u atch them with their pants down building.

    If the marines want to stop ur rush , it is very simple. Have 1 or 2 builders max. The rest stay in the back so they have plenty of time to shoot incomming skulks, and be covering the vents.

    I know, u never see that happening in pubs, but in any sort of organized team, that rush doesn't work.
  • TheGunslingerTheGunslinger Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8126Members
    You can kill marines quite well using only fades and lerks. <!--emo&:)--><img src='' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I commanded today and reloacated to right outside a have, CC, IPs, everything. Problem is we were acid rocked death, slowly, but surly.
  • Fr0STFr0ST Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7473Members
    I'm sure the playtesters have been using this strat for a while. When this happens my main concern is for the marines NOT to have any rs nodes. The faster they get HA the harder it is to kill them with fades.
  • Paladyne-TPFPaladyne-TPF Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7762Members
    edited December 2002
    2 major points:

    1) The game's focal balance point is designed around aliens holding 2 hives, while the marines hold the other one. This means the predominant marine strategy is to take and hold a hive ASAP, either with or without holding onto the original marine base. That little difference is mostly up to the commander's personal preference. Regardless, fades and lerks and such are meant to be almost exactly at the same level as a moderately upgraded marine team, such that it's a near-stalemate if two equal teams find themselves in this situation. Taken to extremes, an exactly equal match would probably occur gievn two exactly equal teams, as any available resources would need to go into welders and such to repair damage done, instead of upgrades. Any difference in the balance point is most likely a difference in experience of the teams, i.e. stealthy marines out making surprise solo attacks on a hive to draw away the fades or take out their ability in the first place. On either team, you should probably strive to first get to this point of balance, and then exceed it through superior tactics.

    2) Skulk rushes <i>do</i> work, and often very admirably. If you've played marines (and I certainly hope you have!), keep in mind how quickly your clip runs dry, how little reserve ammo you often have on hive excursions, and how very <i>long</i> that reload is in the middle of combat. 1v1 isn't too much different from 7v7 in this regard; the marines will still be scrambling to stop all of you, especially if they have a couple builders to protect. The only problem I see is bad coordination; 1v7 doesn't stand much of a chance, but then again, your other 6 skulks are probably taking down the CC rather quickly anyway. Also, dead skulks don't collect resources, allowing your gorge to do his job that much more quickly, so there's really no point in <i>not</i> dying as often as possible unless it's somehow vital that you stay alive. So what if it's 1v7 and they're setting up a base? Do a run, expend their ammo, then call in your teamamtes to finish the job while you're respawning.
  • SoSDSoSD Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8064Members
    Played a game like this earlier this weekend on NS_Nothing, only rather than taking it at the start the Marines took PowerSilo as we overran their main base..

    It was a stalemate for a while, but at last I managed to organize the alien team and get them to coordinate their attacks...

    Two players would Lerk, flying into the heart of PowerSilo, landing amidst all the turrets and so forth, spewing Umbra all over the place, and biting chunks out of frantic Marines.. and then the rest of the team would charge in with Fades, swiping like mad.

    It took three waves, but each wave *severely* damaged their base, and every RU they spent on rebuilding what we destroyed was an RU that they *could not* spend on grenade launchers, heavy machine guns, or power armor.
  • TyrsisTyrsis Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8804Members
    This is not such a great thing actually. The big thing here is, the marines are SUPPOSED to have at least one hive. If they don't, the game is over anyway. So really this is just something that is supposed to happen. After they secure the hive and actually relocated, aliens are at a bigger advantage than if they stayed in their main base. Now the aliens have only ONE thing to concentrate on instead of two places. Besides 2 lerks + 4 fades = extremely hard to stop. Also all the backseat commanders on the team tend to turtle after they secure the first hive. I've seen time and time again where they would just sit back and watch as the entire map is engulfed by aliens, thinking they are ok, since they have a hive. Which is totally wrong.
  • RhoadsToNowhereRhoadsToNowhere i r 8 Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 33Members
    Keep in mind that if the marines do relocate their base to a hive room, they give up the ability to use distress beacon (since that only respawns marines at the marine start) -- which means that they have no "magic bullet" if most of the grunts are dead, either in defense of their new base or during a rush to a different hive. Also, if the initial rush to a hive room is unsuccessful, the marines have probably lost. Otherwise, I'd say straight umbra/fade assaults on the hive room, and use skulks to keep them confined there.
  • padijunpadijun Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3419Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Tyrsis+Dec 2 2002, 10:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tyrsis @ Dec 2 2002, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've seen time and time again where they would just sit back and watch as the entire map is engulfed by aliens, thinking they are ok, since they have a hive. Which is totally wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They get so hung up on the one hive they have that they forget about all the resources they <i>don't</i> have.
  • bitninebitnine Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9283Members
    It's also somewhat efficient to ambush them in the hallway while they are trying to relocate, as long as you have a group of skulks working together.

    Also, if the marines rush off to a hive, try not to let them keep that AND the marine start. Even if you just rush into the start and take down their resource node, it helps to set them back a bit. If you do that and try to destroy any resource outpost that the marines try to make and sort of just shift the focus of the containment, you can (hopefully/usually) get your second hive up.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    The problem is that once the marines have taken and secured the first hive, they rush to the second hive location, build a siege and kill it. In any game larger than 8v8, this is basically unstoppable, given the 3-4 times higher spawn rates of marines.

    Personally, I think the respawn rate of aliens must be increased dramatically. I'd say that the time-to-spawn for aliens should be maxed at 30 sec.

    Some maps and starting locations are more sensitive to this than others.
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