###### marriage, Abortion, Terrorism, Britney's new haircut

Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
edited March 2010 in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Guess the odd one out! Time's up.</div>EDIT: Special thanks to forum table for wasting the thread title!

<img src="http://imgsrv.1010wins.com/image/DbGraphic/200703/461528.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

Ever feel like a cat with ADHD sitting in front of a car-key conveyor?

Okay, that's a pretty far-stretched metaphor. But isn't it amusing how many things you're supposed to care about nowadays? Say, what's your stance on abortion? Suddenly you're either a murderer or a misogynist, and all you had to do was answer a question. Congratulations, half of your country and quarter of your family hates you now.

What's this? Government legislating spying on it's own citizens? Don't worry, it's to protect you from those pesky sand-people. What, major corporations hoarding 90% of country's wealth? Don't worry, look over there, gаys are getting married! Politicians accepting bribes large enough to run twelve dozen third-world countries? Hey look there! That show everyone's talking about is on and it's talking about something controversial apparently! You know, they're just such huge bloody issues, they must be, everyone's talking about them...

You may call it conspiracy - and it certainly is when governments do it - but it doesn't take a genius to realise one factor to this: that the media - and we, the people - are simply more concerned with controversy than information (what a shocker).

Here a couple of issues that might have some actual relevance in my humble opinion:
<ul><li>Starvation, poverty, unemployment, war, consolidation of wealth, inflation, deflation, lack of basic healthcare. Hello?..</li><li>Economic crisis. Which apparently doesn't exist. Tent cities, revolutions, entire countries going bankrupt, unemployment soaring, projected economical damage of 7 WW2's.</li><li>Banks allowed to print money out of thin air at will. Economical damage as in... See above. Nevermind severe inflation and consolidation of wealth.</li><li>Peak oil. Brief run down of things that rely on oil: personal, public, cargo transport, plastics, electricity, food. Naturally, no attempt to replace the infrastructure equals death or severe poverty of every affected sector, as in, pretty much all of Earth.</li><li>Climate change may or may not be on the list depending on extent of projected damage.</li><li>Industrial-size pollution. Hello fresh water, food and air shortages.</li></ul>
That's just me, of course, it's what personal opinion looks like if you haven't seen one in a while. I don't think you're stupid, I'm sure most of us know about similar things, things that actually matter. We just never acknowledge them anymore, wasting our time with what is basically gossip. That is, assuming we ever did acknowledge it, anyway.

In case you're missing the point of this rant, I'm just dead tired of people waging wars over stupid crap. The only way this wall of text wouldn't be a complete waste if you took some time out of your day to inform yourself on things that may actually matter. It'd be a start.

Thank you for your attention, and make sure to vote for the right one of two of your political parties that agree on every major subject.
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Comments

  • PipiPipi Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69550Members
    Hey ! Don't steal Obamanism's role !
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    What is it now, against the law to steal stuff? I don't think so.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    Civil rights are "stupid crap"? I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think it's fair to lump in things that are extremely important to some people just because they don't directly affect you.

    Britney's haircut and immigrations scares? Right there with you. ###### marriage and abortion? Sorry, but that's not irrelevant, or stupid.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    edited March 2010
    You have to prioritize.

    The moral dilemmas of strangling a fetus without it's consent or protecting someone's rights to obtain a legal document are nothing short of spoiled whining in face of billions of people living in poverty, misery, starvation and unending war.

    The only difference between Britney's haircut and these "issues" is that the latter has actual presence in reality, otherwise they're both minuscule in light of what's going on in the world: it's like whining about a broken nail in the middle of armed combat.

    To be a bit more graphic: I have no doubt that not being treated on par with other members of society is horribly insulting and degrading to gаy people to border on clinical neurosis - something I can sympathise with myself - and I will not for a second suggest this is not terrible. But maybe they'd be less inclined to complain about this stuff if they lived in war-torn parts of Africa, without food, water, electricity, communication, transportation, job, infrastructure, medicine or law.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    On the other hand, if you broke a nail at work and promptly exclaimed "OH ######, PEOPLE ARE SHOOTING EACH OTHER IN <INSERT AREA OF THE WORLD HERE>," people wouldn't think you were focusing on the important issues, they'd think you were completely bonkers. It's our nature to try to improve our lives. If we're homeless we try to get a place to live, even if it means squatting. If our county/country/continent is a warzone, we're probably more focused on ending the war somehow than on creating safe workplaces or more jobs. But on the other hand, safe workplaces and more jobs start seeming mighty important once you remove the immediate threat of bullet to the anatomy. Yes, I think it's awful that people are killing each other in another part of the world, but I also think it's awful that X% of the population is involuntarily unemployed or slaving away under unnecessarily harsh conditions.
    And you gotta pick your battles. High priorities are which ones you can win and which ones can positively affect you and those you care about, and in both cases issues closer to home score higher.

    And no, nobody should give a ###### about Britney's haircut in the face of more important issues like, say, inventing a five-sided die.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    Prioritising some issues doesn't mean ignoring others, or devaluing them. It's not a minimum-maximum thing.

    But yeah, your contempt for other peoples' rights is duly noted, I guess.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    edited March 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1757077:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:46 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Mar 4 2010, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Prioritising some issues doesn't mean ignoring others, or devaluing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm glad you understand that, I'd just like for you to also understand that prioritizing them so highly accomplishes the opposite of this. Making these menial issues prominent is exactly the same as ignoring and demeaning any that can actually matter, and that's exactly what it achieves.

    It's like picking your dress for hours on end so you don't look bad running away from a pack of rabid dogs.

    <!--quoteo(post=1757077:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:46 PM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Mar 4 2010, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But yeah, your contempt for other peoples' rights is duly noted, I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't think you got a word I said. Have a good day then.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    edited March 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1757076:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:45 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Mar 4 2010, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hand, if you broke a nail at work and promptly exclaimed "OH ######, PEOPLE ARE SHOOTING EACH OTHER IN <INSERT AREA OF THE WORLD HERE>," people wouldn't think you were focusing on the important issues, they'd think you were completely bonkers. It's our nature to try to improve our lives. If we're homeless we try to get a place to live, even if it means squatting. If our county/country/continent is a warzone, we're probably more focused on ending the war somehow than on creating safe workplaces or more jobs. But on the other hand, safe workplaces and more jobs start seeming mighty important once you remove the immediate threat of bullet to the anatomy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's quite in line with what I'm trying to say: we allow these issues to direct our priorities instead of what would logically follow, as what you mention. They're distractions. A world where abortion/whatever is the highest possible moral dilemma is a world without hunger, poverty, disease, or wars... And it's none of ours.

    It's less that they are close to home and more that they are made to be close to home. We're all egoistic to a great extent, I'm sure if we realised what actually affects our lives we'd see another bloody revolution in an instant (which would actually be unfortunate).

    <!--quoteo(post=1757076:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:45 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Mar 4 2010, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, I think it's awful that people are killing each other in another part of the world, but I also think it's awful that X% of the population is involuntarily unemployed or slaving away under unnecessarily harsh conditions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    My speech is probably rather confused, because I'm trying to speak for the entire world here: the on-going crisis repercussions are easily the worst thing to hit the US, as wars and starvation are the worst things to hit the most unfortunate parts of Africa. I'm glad you at least know that's going on, many US (and every other affected country's) citizens seem to be oblivious to this, and that is precisely why I'm so pissed off at every other issue to be forced into clique without adequate merit.

    <!--quoteo(post=1757076:date=Mar 4 2010, 11:45 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Mar 4 2010, 11:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And no, nobody should give a ###### about Britney's haircut in the face of more important issues like, say, inventing a five-sided die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I want to see that.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    edited March 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1757080:date=Mar 4 2010, 08:55 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 4 2010, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think you got a word I said. Have a good day then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I understand you, I just disagree with you.

    It seems to me like you're just trying to drop the intellectual humdinger that some issues are more immediately urgent than others. This just in: we know. It doesn't mean that people have to drop everything else they care about. It's possible to fight personal battles as well as more global, extremely serious ones.

    What you're saying isn't really anything new, but I'd be much more amenable to your point if you didn't feel the need to repeatedly denigrate other people's struggles in order to make it.
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Great post! Have you had a look at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Political_Economy_of_the_Mass_Media" target="_blank">this</a>
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1757084:date=Mar 5 2010, 12:15 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Mar 5 2010, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I understand you, I just disagree with you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Like I said, I don't think you do. I don't know how to make myself any more clear, other than saying that I do not for a second mean the things mentioned aren't a big deal. They just pale in comparison to others. "Big" and "Small", as you may notice, are relative terms, they do not denote quantity.

    <!--quoteo(post=1757084:date=Mar 5 2010, 12:15 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Mar 5 2010, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems to me like you're just trying to drop the intellectual humdinger that some issues are more immediately urgent than others. This just in: we know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then you misunderstand my post, as I'm saying precisely that we don't - as we're continually distracted to the point of apathy and misguidance by these "issues".

    <!--quoteo(post=1757084:date=Mar 5 2010, 12:15 AM:name=Insane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Insane @ Mar 5 2010, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757084"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What you're saying isn't really anything new, but I'd be much more amenable to your point if you didn't feel the need to repeatedly denigrate other people's struggles in order to make it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's not going to happen, as doing this is exactly my point. If I, as a staunch egoist, can realise that my preferred issues do not deserve attention compared to other stuff going on in the world, so can you.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    edited March 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1757090:date=Mar 5 2010, 12:28 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 5 2010, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757090"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great post! Have you had a look at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Political_Economy_of_the_Mass_Media" target="_blank">this</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thanks a bunch.

    Also, that is pretty impressive, I certainly will have a look. I suppose it was naive to imagine no one noticed this before... And it's actually familiar in a way... Oh god, wait, can't believe I'd forget this:

    <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wewf3lQjCPQ"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wewf3lQjCPQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>

    But, of course, it's not just the media. Media isn't run by aliens or reptilians or illuminati... It's run by us. It's repeated by us. It's worshipped by us. All the TV did is make gossip more accessible, as Internet did with stupidity (and sometimes information).
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    edited March 2010
    Small side note: I am not a U.S. citizen or resident. I'm from one of those other countries that have unemployment.

    And yes, I'm aware that there are other problems in other parts of the world. I am aware that people kill each other over issues that to an outside observer seem ridiculous. I am aware that people kill each other over grave issues that are very difficult to solve. I am aware that the problem with starvation is still about distribution, not production - that we currently (still) produce enough food worldwide to feed the entire human population, and that the only reason people die of starvation or malnutrition is because food is going to waste somewhere else.
    I am aware that, despite all my complaining about my lot in life, I live in one of the happiest (or is that smug and self-satisfied?) nations in the world, a nation with strong social security nets, a nation with no credible military threats, a nation with little risk of natural disasters save the ubiquitous autumn storms that we learned to live with a millenium ago. I am aware that I could be a lot worse off in a lot of ways, and sometimes that gives me comfort when I think life is being unfair to me. But callous as it sounds, I care more about whether I have a job and a decent income than what happens in Africa. I can't help it - it's only logical to care more about what directly affects you than what doesn't. Otherwise we'd have demonstrators starving to death in the streets because they forgot to eat - for what does the hunger of a single man matter compared to, say, the genocide in Darfur?
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    edited March 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1757108:date=Mar 5 2010, 01:15 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Mar 5 2010, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Small side note: I am not a U.S. citizen or resident. I'm from one of those other countries that have unemployment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Since you mention that: ditto.

    It's actually annoyingly hard to get data on what exactly is going on right now, the media silence is outright deafening. To the best of my knowledge some parts of the EU are in armed revolt, and few previously well-off independent countries are outright bankrupt (a couple not even in relation to the crisis, but due to similar causes).

    <!--quoteo(post=1757108:date=Mar 5 2010, 01:15 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Mar 5 2010, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And yes, I'm aware that there are other problems in other parts of the world. I am aware that people kill each other over issues that to an outside observer seem ridiculous. I am aware that people kill each other over grave issues that are very difficult to solve. I am aware that the problem with starvation is still about distribution, not production - that we currently (still) produce enough food worldwide to feed the entire human population, and that the only reason people die of starvation or malnutrition is because food is going to waste somewhere else.
    I am aware that, despite all my complaining about my lot in life, I live in one of the happiest (or is that smug and self-satisfied?) nations in the world, a nation with strong social security nets, a nation with no credible military threats, a nation with little risk of natural disasters save the ubiquitous autumn storms that we learned to live with a millenium ago. I am aware that I could be a lot worse off in a lot of ways, and sometimes that gives me comfort when I think life is being unfair to me. But callous as it sounds, I care more about whether I have a job and a decent income than what happens in Africa. I can't help it - it's only logical to care more about what directly affects you than what doesn't. Otherwise we'd have demonstrators starving to death in the streets because they forgot to eat - for what does the hunger of a single man matter compared to, say, the genocide in Darfur?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then you have my congratulations. If you really know all this, it should sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me that most people don't even acknowledge that.

    In case it sounded like it... I'm not saying that developed countries should be content or ashamed that, say, Africa is in peril: neither things solves anything, and I have no regard for moral sanctimony. I find it hard to think in territorial restrictions, as concept of "country" never made any sense to me, so someone starving in Africa is hardly different from someone starving in US or UK to me. I only mean to say that we're paying entirely too much attention to things we shouldn't care about, and pay none to things that actually do. We have our priorities completely messed up.

    I'm sure we all know this on one level or another. We're just distracted. At least I know it's possible as I've been in that position myself, hell, most of my life, if not still am.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    As soon as people come in hordes, they're becoming more stupid by the second... I hate popular stuff, it usually ends up in the most useless conversations. Take sports for instance, Football (or soccer as you US folk call it) seems to be the most popular sport in the entire world...

    My guess is because the sport itself is so easy to follow, everyone with half a brain (or boozed up brain) has an opinion on it and feels like they are actually making a point... Like those programs on TV that go on and on and on about what went wrong during a match, AFTER THE MATCH TOOK PLACE...


    Reruns make me instinctively turn off the TV or switch to Discovery-like channels... But somehow these kind of programs have the highest ratings... Humanity is doomed if these idiots keep producing babies, our genepool is being infected by morons...

    Nextgen people will be even more useless D:
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    Ah, yes, good old crowd mentality.

    It might be an evolutionary trait: we're pack animals, and packs need to be able to be steered to accomplish anything together in nature, so we've evolved to be easily steered this way... And so we are. Unfortunately.

    Curse you, Darwin.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    edited March 2010
    I generally don't pay much attention, I've got opinions on quite a lot of those things but nobody I know 'hates' me for them. My family accepts my opinion and I accept theirs, hell I even understand their opinion sometimes. Same goes for my friends, we disagree on things but we don't hate each other for it. I disagree with my best friend over almost everything but I still love her precisely because she is intelligent enough to listen to what people say to her and think before she responds, she doesn't form a snap opinion and hate me forever because of it, and any viewpoint you put to her will recieve consideration before she says anything back.

    Generally my view on the state of the world is that it doesn't largely matter, most of it doesn't affect me and is beyond my ability to control, the small area that is in my power to control, I do, and that can take up more than enough of my time and thoughts. I don't feel compelled to pay attention to the news or TV shows or celebrities because it's only relevant if I choose to make it relevant, and I choose not to.

    The funny thing is that from my perspective, all the things that are commonly subjects of concern are not that important, I live in a country where everywhere you go you are on camera, there are at least two on the bus I get every morning to university, and the university has one every hundred feet, and everywhere I go in the town centre there are cameras on shops and in lamp posts and on roofs, and my movement around the campus is tracked because I need to use my ID card to open most of the doors.

    And yet I don't feel at all bothered by it, nobody from the government has come knocking because I watch TV shows from the government-owned BBC that have been uploaded to youtube and which are mostly about mocking the government (the BBC devotes about a third of its programming to doing that). Nobody has accused me of being a subversive terrorist trying to undermine the glory of ingsoc, in fact I've hardly noticed any difference at all, in any area of my life, for the past few years. If I read the papers it would lead me to believe that the government is falling to pieces, but the buses still run ten minutes late and the university is still not worth the money I paid to go there and my town is still a bit of a ######hole, just as it has been for as long as I can remember.

    The only differences now are that I have a faster computer, I live in a nicer house, and the internet gets more and more awesome every day. Ideas like homosexuality being groovy and environmentalism being a good thing (even though it may be a little misguided sometimes) are becoming more popular and slowly the world is improving, social changes are occuring gradually and generally for the better I think, but mostly things just stay the same. The world is chaotic but it's chaos like molecular motion is chaotic. Particles in a gas are bouncing around like crazy but the gas overall stays the same size and temperature, people are highly random creatures but the world as a whole stays more or less the same.

    The world as a whole also exhibits a very interesting survival reflex, if something goes wrong, people everywhere rapidly adapt and it becomes the new normal, somewhere, someone is going to have the right response to any given situation, and that person and others like them are going to emerge successful out of any given setback, and then everyone else sees how they did it and tries to copy them. The world as a whole has survived things like world war two, sixty years ago the entirety of europe was at each others throats, today we're all using the same currency (except the UK for some reason) and you can buy a rail ticket that lets you go from london to prague via wherever the hell you like, entirely of your own volition. You can cross any border you want more or less and just turn up in any city in europe, look around, get something to eat, visit famous places, and then go on to the next one. Not half bad considering the entire place was more or less under martial law a few decades ago.

    So there's nothing to worry about, I guess. Considering that I would be amazed to see what might happen in the next sixty years.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1756977:date=Mar 4 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 4 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In case you're missing the point of this rant, I'm just dead tired of people waging wars over stupid crap. The only way this wall of text wouldn't be a complete waste if you took some time out of your day to inform yourself on things that may actually matter. It'd be a start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The problem is not everyone can be an expert on everything, so you build a world-view and then stick to news sources that don't challenge that world-view because the other ones are "wrong". You can't expect people to know the ins and outs of every issue because the nitty gritty is hard. It's much easier to throw up a sound bite than <a href="http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/04/06/climate-change-and-argumentative-fallacies/" target="_blank">explain what's actually going on</a>.
    <!--quoteo(post=1756977:date=Mar 4 2010, 08:20 AM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 4 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1756977"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you for your attention, and make sure to vote for the right one of two of your political parties that agree on every major subject.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Condescension is not going to encourage people to look beyond the two major parties. It makes you sound like an Ayn Rand follower rather than a bringer of truth. If you really want to "break the system" find a third party you support and describe how they would actually do things different than the major two parties.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1757994:date=Mar 8 2010, 11:20 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 8 2010, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1757994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You are quite lucky, and I applaud your outlook.

    I would really like to also support the latter part of your... State of affairs, but I've been through at least three major personal cataclysms (and two near misses) when the outside system collapsed in on this familiar and safe, if slightly imperfect, world, and I'd like to think of myself qua learning from own mistakes.

    <!--quoteo(post=1758136:date=Mar 8 2010, 10:20 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Mar 8 2010, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is not everyone can be an expert on everything, so you build a world-view and then stick to news sources that don't challenge that world-view because the other ones are "wrong". You can't expect people to know the ins and outs of every issue because the nitty gritty is hard. It's much easier to throw up a sound bite than <a href="http://www.juliansanchez.com/2009/04/06/climate-change-and-argumentative-fallacies/" target="_blank">explain what's actually going on</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I wouldn't say it's hard to know what's going on as much as people don't even bother with it, possibly because we're deluded into thinking we're already perfectly well-informed by the media, which is the thing I'm trying to address. I think explaining a few things about how our world works instead would indeed be more efficient, if that's what you're saying, but I don't think I can put it in any coherent form right now (I tried to do it first and failed).

    <!--quoteo(post=1758136:date=Mar 8 2010, 10:20 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Mar 8 2010, 10:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Condescension is not going to encourage people to look beyond the two major parties. It makes you sound like an Ayn Rand follower rather than a bringer of truth. If you really want to "break the system" find a third party you support and describe how they would actually do things different than the major two parties.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm not sure how that was condescending, although I'm a bit autistic in general, so forgive me if it was. The quip was intent to illustrate the absurdity of supporting the existing two-party system, that's about it.
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I think the most important thing you can do personally is to switch off cable news and read a variety of broadsheet newspapers. Don't become loyal to a single paper.. ever.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1758202:date=Mar 9 2010, 03:38 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 9 2010, 03:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the most important thing you can do personally is to switch off cable news and read a variety of broadsheet newspapers. Don't become loyal to a single paper.. ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I would go further and suggest looking for some independent - or even primary - sources (it's easier than it sounds), but that would indeed be a big improvement at a relatively low cost of effort.

    Hm. I don't think I've watched the telly once for the last six years... And I really don't miss it.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1758146:date=Mar 8 2010, 03:12 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 8 2010, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't say it's hard to know what's going on as much as people don't even bother with it, possibly because we're deluded into thinking we're already perfectly well-informed by the media, which is the thing I'm trying to address. I think explaining a few things about how our world works instead would indeed be more efficient, if that's what you're saying, but I don't think I can put it in any coherent form right now (I tried to do it first and failed).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't disagree with what you're saying, but the point is most people don't have the time nor inclination to learn about most political issues, and I don't think you can change that.
    <!--quoteo(post=1758146:date=Mar 8 2010, 03:12 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 8 2010, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure how that was condescending, although I'm a bit autistic in general, so forgive me if it was. The quip was intent to illustrate the absurdity of supporting the existing two-party system, that's about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree that the two-party system has become stagnant. Recognizing the problem and complaining about it is step one. Step two should be how to improve it.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    edited March 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1758328:date=Mar 9 2010, 05:59 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Mar 9 2010, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't disagree with what you're saying, but the point is most people don't have the time nor inclination to learn about most political issues, and I don't think you can change that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I can't disagree with that either. We're all busy running in the hamster wheel, and the politics often come across as complicated pointless bullcrap... Mostly because they are, too.

    Beyond any organised attempt at educating anyone on anything, I guess the one thing that could do it is something akin to the worst-case scenario crisis - that isn't happening - to actually make people aware that they're part of the system. Or it could lead to yet another reactionary pointless bloodshed and deck shuffling, as it did so many times before.

    I really wish I knew what to do about that... There's got to be some way to do something.

    <!--quoteo(post=1758328:date=Mar 9 2010, 05:59 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Mar 9 2010, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that the two-party system has become stagnant. Recognizing the problem and complaining about it is step one. Step two should be how to improve it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Precisely.

    I'd wager the three-, two- and later one-party systems are all a natural tendency in politics, exactly as it is in business: after a while, the big fish gets big enough that no small one will ever pose a challenge. The very system needs to change to never allow for even a possibility such thing, anything else would be just patchwork.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1758202:date=Mar 8 2010, 07:38 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Mar 8 2010, 07:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the most important thing you can do personally is to switch off cable news and read a variety of broadsheet newspapers. Don't become loyal to a single paper.. ever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes, it's much easier to spot bias, editorial and otherwise, that way.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    The internet is good for information, mainly because it's pretty averaged out, lots of people contribute to any given thing so you'll get a lot of different viewpoints about it.

    The internet is a marvellous argument for agnosticism.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    edited March 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1758594:date=Mar 10 2010, 08:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 10 2010, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The internet is good for information, mainly because it's pretty averaged out, lots of people contribute to any given thing so you'll get a lot of different viewpoints about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Internet is our saviour at this point in time - not just because of porn - but because it is indeed free. While there is no certification which makes things a bit hazier, there is also no restriction on what gets through, and that means that no one can get away with anything as soon as the bird is out of the cage.

    I think, in the grand scheme of things, it's one thing that can make a difference come next earth-shattering kaboom, in that we at least have a menial chance of not running amok based on some false notion or other, as that at least can be exposed.

    <!--quoteo(post=1758594:date=Mar 10 2010, 08:19 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 10 2010, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758594"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The internet is a marvellous argument for agnosticism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Wh?.. Bu?.. Nevermind.
  • DiscoZombieDiscoZombie Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18951Members
    I've always wondered what the world would be like if all the time and money spent protesting and lobbying against abortion was instead spent saving living, breathing kids who are starving in the third world. Sadly we will probably never know.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1758722:date=Mar 11 2010, 06:04 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Mar 11 2010, 06:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've always wondered what the world would be like if all the time and money spent protesting and lobbying against abortion was instead spent saving living, breathing kids who are starving in the third world. Sadly we will probably never know.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That... That's pretty much OP in concise form. Well-done.

    Resources aren't infinite, if you waste them on random details rather than the bigger picture, they're very much lost to it.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1758598:date=Mar 10 2010, 05:44 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Mar 10 2010, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Internet is our saviour at this point in time - not just because of porn - but because it is indeed free. While there is no certification which makes things a bit hazier, there is also no restriction on what gets through, and that means that no one can get away with anything as soon as the bird is out of the cage.

    I think, in the grand scheme of things, it's one thing that can make a difference come next earth-shattering kaboom, in that we at least have a menial chance of not running amok based on some false notion or other, as that at least can be exposed.


    Wh?.. Bu?.. Nevermind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Agnosticism as in the philosophical belief that knowledge is impossible, not the religious standpoint.

    Religious agnostics would say they don't know whether god exists or they can't know whether god exists, I say that about everything. I either don't know for sure or can never know for sure whether anything is a certain way.

    The internet is a good argument for it because you'll come across people who believe all sorts of stuff, and nothing makes certainty harder than seeing lots of other people all certain about different contradictory things.
  • Draco_2kDraco_2k Evil Genius Join Date: 2009-12-09 Member: 69546Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1758797:date=Mar 11 2010, 07:47 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Mar 11 2010, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1758797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agnosticism as in the philosophical belief that knowledge is impossible, not the religious standpoint.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I thought you were referring to that for a second, but you're the first person I heard use the word that way. In that case, very much yes.

    I wouldn't attribute it to people's beliefs<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> though, but to the sheer amount of information that is routinely acknowledged, rejected, contested, defended, uprooted, proven, disproven, improved and accepted: it's how human knowledge had always worked throughout the years, of course, all Internet does is allow access to it, to make it that bit more obvious. Absolute knowledge be darned, at least we get to get our hands on some down-to-earth one.

    <!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->* "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
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