Overgrowth will have a Linux port - that much is certain. If you mean just NS2 though... well, maybe. It's actually marked "yes we will port it to Linux" in one place and "Windows only in another" :-S
Well, I hadn't really heard of NS2 until I saw the promo for the promo pack at Wolfire. NS2 looks like a decent game and I'd probably get it if it comes out on Linux.
I would not be interested in some scheme were I buy the windows version and have to cobble together some supported version of Wine to make it work. I don't mind if it's packaged with wine under the covers. I just don't use wine myself and I don't want to have to care about that. As I've heard before, if you buy a game made for windows to play in wine then you've done just that, bought a game made for windows. I've still got a back log of recent native games that I've bought and haven't played yet. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough.
In general I don't pre-order software for reasons I won't go into here. But, if I see some commitment to provide a Linux port for NS2 before the promo offer expires, I will pre-order. I'm already a huge fan of Lugaru and I've been really pleased by several Indy companies with good games supporting of Linux in the last year or so. I'd like to encourage more of that. That and apparent quality of both games combined with the promo price appeals to my inner cheapskate.
I don't expect anything but work is going to keep me online late tonight, so I'll keep watch. Even If there isn't a commitment before the pre-order promo expires, as I said above if a Linux version of NS2 comes out I'd probably buy it.
I've bought the Organic Pack, mostly because of Overgrowth project. Guess why ? They'll have a native linux suport.
What about offer the same for NS2 ??
Obs: I think that split the CD-keys in steam and non-steam users is a really bad ideia. It'd force the plp who intend to switch from Windows to Linux buy the game twice!
:( I can say with absolute certainty that they will not go through the trouble to make NS2 work with OpenGL, much less attempt to have a version ready for every popular linux distro. OpenGL's support scenarios are too scattered and many ARB features are just a mess, it's so much more productive for such a small group of developers to use a platform as stable and supported as directx.
I'm not saying I don't wish it was possible, but I'm just saying it's unrealistic to expect or demand it.
<!--quoteo(post=1747424:date=Jan 15 2010, 03:37 PM:name=Mido)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mido @ Jan 15 2010, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->:( I can say with absolute certainty that they will not go through the trouble to make NS2 work with OpenGL, much less attempt to have a version ready for every popular linux distro. OpenGL's support scenarios are too scattered and many ARB features are just a mess, it's so much more productive for such a small group of developers to use a platform as stable and supported as directx.
I'm not saying I don't wish it was possible, but I'm just saying it's unrealistic to expect or demand it.
It wont happen. Sorry guys.
VVV: And now you don't have to have any doubt!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:) I was waiting for someone to post this article! I knew it was inevitable since UWE paired with the Overgrowth guys. I did not, however, expect a one quote reply without any kind of support or outlines. Classy.
There are plenty of counter-points to this article, and some of the things suggested in that article are just plain disingenuous.
Here are two of my favorite and most well rounded replies of that article, both of which I relate to in my own experiences: (from <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidRosen/20100108/4051/Why_You_Should_Use_OpenGL_And_Not_DirectX.php" target="_blank">that exact blog post but on Gamasutra</a>) <!--QuoteBegin-"Rob Jones"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Rob Jones")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I should probably take the time to form a decent rebuttal to this article, however for now I'll stick with the following.
I was an OpenGL programmer for 8 years, the last year or two of that time was spent waiting for the ARB to do something decent with the API before I finally gave up and moved across to D3D10 then D3D11 where I am now.
On the power aspect, yes for small batches of draws on XP there was/is a problem. This was the whole reason behind the instancing system being introduced to sidestep the design issue of jumping into the kernel on every draw call. As I recall Vista fixed that problem for DX9 and DX10 and 11 don't have that problem.
As for the newest GPU features, well last I checked there are no extensions out for D3D11 features and it was missing a large chunk of D3D10 and 10.1 features. Those which did exist quickly came only for NV as AMD was slow to adopt them and get their implimentation up to task. The tessellation extension which was linked to didn't become public until sometime last year and is only 1/3 (at most) of the tessellation supported in D3D11, so to claim that it is the same is very dishonest and incorrect.
My biggest amusement however came from this line, in fact I got a strange look in the office when I burst out laughing; "If there's anything about OpenGL that you don't like, then just ask the ARB to change it -- they exist to serve you!"
Oh, but if only this was the truth, because if it was then we wouldn't have the abortion which is GL3.1, instead we would have got Longs Peak, a nice new clean API which would have been better than D3D10 and probably D3D11. However, despite it being 'almost ready' for some time it died a silent death due to corporate reasons behind the scenes.
During those 8 years of usage I watched the ARB fumble and fail with OpenGL as MS learnt from its mistakes and improved the API with each iteration. The Longs Peak/GL3.0 mess was the last straw for myself and many others before they departed the API for a company who seems to know what they are doing.
Finally, while I have no direct quote handy, Carmacks most recent comments about D3D indicates that he likes what MS have done with it. The fact that everyone pulls out that 10 year old quote to try and attack D3D is a sad statement about OpenGL as well.
Until OpenGL gets all the features, the docs, the tools, the support and the stability of drivers that D3D has it is going to be on a losing footing and the ARB has, in the last 10 years or so, shown no indication that it can pull this off. As a developer this is what matters the most.
MS might well have a 'strangle hold' on things but at least they are getting things done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-"Giuseppe Navarria"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Giuseppe Navarria")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I love your team and Overgrowth but this article is truly unfair, when you say "OpenGL is Cross-Platform" you're speaking mainly about OpenGL ES. OpenGL runs only on PC. Also let's clarify that PS3 doesn't use only OpenGL ES and Nintendo WII has his own SDK and libraries.
OpenGL API structure is bloated, outdated, not object-oriented and should be rewritten from scratch, DirectX SDK not only includes a graphic library (Direct3D) but several other kind of libraries and tools. And better to not even start talking about D3DvsOGL APIs documentation ;)
OpenGL isn't actually that open, it's in the hands of the mayor companies of the Khronos Group (Apple Inc., Intel, Nvidia, Sony, Sun Microsystem to name a few) and it's not you nor me that decide anything over it.
About being "the future" and "more powerful": OpenGL only recently deprecated the use of non vertex-buffer based geometry and the structure is still chained to a lot of deprecated garbage, and there are no plans to get rid of that in the near future.
I've build our own engine with both an OpenGL and a Direct3D renderer plugin and guess what, the D3D one is clean and slim, the OGL one was a lot trickier to do.
Direct3D is a much, much better API than OpenGL, even Carmack that's a member of the Khronos Group admitted it. Over this practically objective fact, both APIs are just tools, if you need to develop for something that's not DirectX compatible you can surely bet on OpenGL, If you aim at at PC\XBOX you're in DirectX realm. If you get an engine that can use both, that's even better.
In the end, OpenGL is a necessary evil for a lot of platforms, but it should copy DirectX and improve. Saying that OpenGL is better is covering his own eyes, OpenGL sucks. But it's the only thing you can use in a lot of cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not saying that Linux sucks, that OpenGL sucks, that anything about wanting a linux platform sucks. It would indeed be awesome, but don't expect it because it's unrealistic in a for-profit market for UWE to support and redo everything in OpenGL at this stage in development. Perhaps I shouldn't put words into the developer's mouths, but I wont be surprised if they don't want to piss anyone off by essentially saying 'sorry guys aint gonna happen'.
I should qualify all this by saying that I'm doing my own project in OpenGL since I kinda like it honestly, and I'm fortunate enough that my project isn't demanding enough to use any weird ARB features that might have spotty hardware support.
EDIT: To qualify this all further.
If the NS2 devs do release an OpenGL/Linux version, I <b>WILL</b> eat my hat. I will record it on youtube and make a thread about it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew; Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Nazis may have had a 'strangle hold' on things but at least they got things done.
Everybody's always saying "it would be awesome if more stuff came out on Linux" and "it sucks that it doesn't", but you're never going to break the cycle by going along with it. You're right that it's too late to change your mind this far into development, but what if they'd planned it in the beginning? They would have code specifically written to be easily translated from one API to another. The only reason I'm here is because of this quote:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now it runs on Windows but we also plan on fully supporting OS X, Linux and Xbox 360.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I do reckon there's still hope for it - you may yet eat your hat.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
oh jeah, de bet is on :) you can then team up with the overgrowth guy and his pink beard :) really looking forward to the hat eating video. Can we choose the hat?
<!--quoteo(post=1747643:date=Jan 17 2010, 04:58 AM:name=Asraniel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asraniel @ Jan 17 2010, 04:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh jeah, de bet is on :) you can then team up with the overgrowth guy and his pink beard :) really looking forward to the hat eating video. Can we choose the hat?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, it has to be an edible hat. I might make a nacho hat, or a fruit hat.
<!--quoteo(post=1747624:date=Jan 17 2010, 01:04 AM:name=wilbefast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wilbefast @ Jan 17 2010, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Nazis may have had a 'strangle hold' on things but at least they got things done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Words cannot describe how this makes me feel (good). You should get a job at Fox on something, they draw Hitler analogies all the goddamn time in the most inappropriate times, this not being an exception.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I do reckon there's still hope for it - you may yet eat your hat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of want to, honestly. It'd be funny and we'd get multiplatform NS2! Again I'm not against it I just.. think it's silly to expect it :( I'm so jaded
<!--quoteo(post=1747649:date=Jan 17 2010, 11:36 AM:name=Mido)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mido @ Jan 17 2010, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Words cannot describe how this makes me feel (good). You should get a job at Fox on something, they draw Hitler analogies all the goddamn time in the most inappropriate times, this not being an exception.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ever heard of Godwin's law? I couldn't resist :-P
Don't compare me to Fox - that's a serious insult: far worse than being compared to Hitler. Besides, I merely was *implying* - *imp-ly-ing*!
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
anybody else here is worried because it seems like the devs are really avoiding the linux/mac topic? the only thing i have seen lately is i think comprox saying that because of steamworks it could really become a problem.
There's a PR rule lying around somewhere that say: "don't announce disappointing news until you're certain, and when you do pretend that you aren't at first". You can also say nothing and hope that people forget about your promises. Not suggesting Unknown Worlds subscribes to this, but it does make good business sense.
Long story short, uf there's any suggestion of steamworks being a problem, it's very bad news for Cross Platform NS2. Then again, Valve is/was/will be possible/maybe/perhaps porting games to Linux in the never/far/non-existent future. By which I mean that they once planned to do it, but since then we've heard nothing about it. So maybe they're just hoping that people forget =P
A bigger problem is the Organic Preorder pack - Wolfire is getting a <b>very</b> raw deal as: A - there are more NS2 preorders (and there are a <b>lot</b> of you guys) => more free copies of Overgrowth than NS2. B - giving a free copy of NS2 to somebody who's ordered Overgrowth for Linux or Mac is <b>not</b> giving them a free copy if there's no Mac or Linux NS2.
There's a PR rule lying around somewhere that say: "don't announce disappointing news until you're certain, and when you do pretend that you aren't at first". You can also say nothing and hope that people forget about your promises. Not suggesting Unknown Worlds subscribes to this, but it does make good business sense.
Long story short, uf there's any suggestion of steamworks being a problem, it's very bad news for Cross Platform NS2. Then again, Valve is/was/will be possible/maybe/perhaps porting games to Linux in the never/far/non-existent future. By which I mean that they once planned to do it, but since then we've heard nothing about it. So maybe they're just hoping that people forget =P
A bigger problem is the Organic Preorder pack - Wolfire is getting a <b>very</b> raw deal as: A - there are more NS2 preorders (and there are a <b>lot</b> of you guys) => more free copies of Overgrowth than NS2. B - giving a free copy of NS2 to somebody who's ordered Overgrowth for Linux or Mac is <b>not</b> giving them a free copy if there's no Mac or Linux NS2.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
lets hope your not right, but i also get that feeling. As long as UWE is not announcing officialy that there will be noc mac/linux version, they profit from the sales, because usualy linux and mac people tend to be more supportive to game companies that make a game for their platform. I hope not.. but from all the signs lately... even though i'm not exactly sure they can do that, the bad publicity would be quite bad if the size of this thread has anything todo with the amount of linux people that preordered.
Well, we'll probably have to wait till they're close to release or even post release to get some answers. I certainly hope that I'll be able to play this natively on Linux.
At least I'll have my Overgrowth Linux Client. You guys should also check out "Primal Carnage". It's a Human vs Dinosaur multiplayer game with release planned for Q4 2010. They already have working Linux builds right now for both 32bit and 64bit. (mostly due to the Unigine engine) Everyone who preorders will have guaranteed beta access, but they don't offer preorder yet. The game might be good, but the main thing here probably is the Unigine SDK and the Primal Carnage SDK that will come with it. So it's going to be the modders paradise. Finally state of the art-looking mods/games for Linux again.
<!--quoteo(post=1747596:date=Jan 16 2010, 11:30 PM:name=Mido)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mido @ Jan 16 2010, 11:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->:) I was waiting for someone to post this article! I knew it was inevitable since UWE paired with the Overgrowth guys. I did not, however, expect a one quote reply without any kind of support or outlines. Classy.
There are plenty of counter-points to this article, and some of the things suggested in that article are just plain disingenuous.
Here are two of my favorite and most well rounded replies of that article, both of which I relate to in my own experiences: (from <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidRosen/20100108/4051/Why_You_Should_Use_OpenGL_And_Not_DirectX.php" target="_blank">that exact blog post but on Gamasutra</a>)
I am not saying that Linux sucks, that OpenGL sucks, that anything about wanting a linux platform sucks. It would indeed be awesome, but don't expect it because it's unrealistic in a for-profit market for UWE to support and redo everything in OpenGL at this stage in development. Perhaps I shouldn't put words into the developer's mouths, but I wont be surprised if they don't want to piss anyone off by essentially saying 'sorry guys aint gonna happen'.
I should qualify all this by saying that I'm doing my own project in OpenGL since I kinda like it honestly, and I'm fortunate enough that my project isn't demanding enough to use any weird ARB features that might have spotty hardware support.
EDIT: To qualify this all further.
If the NS2 devs do release an OpenGL/Linux version, I <b>WILL</b> eat my hat. I will record it on youtube and make a thread about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ha, prepare to eat your hat man! -> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/2/spark_engine_questions_and_answers_1" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010...s_and_answers_1</a> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Well let the issue be avoided no longer! Currently our engine and tools only work on Windows, and that will be the only platform Natural Selection 2 will be available on at release. However, most of the engine is not platform specific. The largest Windows-specific piece is the low level rendering code which is built on Direct3D. In the interest of having our engine run on Linux and OS X someday, this low level rendering code is wrapped up so that it's mostly separate from the rest of the engine. With a small amount of effort, we can swap out this piece with an OpenGL implementation that will work on Linux and OS X. </b>All of our tools are built using the cross-platform wxWidgets framework, so once we get the engine working on another platform, bringing the tools over won't be too much work.
<b>Now that I've convinced you that we've taken steps to allow us to bring our engine to other platforms, you might be wondering why we don't just go ahead and do it. The answer is simple; we don't have the time right now.</b> As an alternative to doing it ourselves, we've considered "open sourcing" or publishing the low-level APIs for the pieces that are Windows specific and inviting community members to contribute their own implementation. If you like this idea let me know in the comments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1683111:date=Jul 11 2008, 12:39 PM:name=ChromeAngel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChromeAngel @ Jul 11 2008, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now (or ideally before any graphics was coded) would be the ideal time to plan for the capacity to be cross platform. If it turns out Max has been coding this all in C# using DirectX the odds of it ever seeing a non-windows platform are tiny to non-existent. If however he's been using a cross platform friendly set of tools like ANSI C++ and openGL we at least have a ray of hope for a Linux NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really think he was coding a game in C#? Companies just don't do that. Kids messing around with XNA do that. C++ is the industry standard (except for id, which still insists on C).
Also, you're wrong about it being difficult to change the graphics layer after it's been coded in the engine. The renderer is probably (usually) just abstracted upon. OpenGL and DirectX are both rendering APIs, and their fundamentals are tenets of graphics programming, not specifics of the API. All that would need to be done, then, is to change the rendering code while keeping whatever abstractions everything in the engine uses to interact with it.
It's not incredibly easy, but it's also not an incredibly daunting task if the abstractions are well-implemented. The hard part isn't porting to OpenGL, it's what comes after -- that is to say, keeping track of twice the amount of driver-related bugs and inconsistencies. I'd imagine that most games choosing to not go cross-platform has less to do with the initial cost of implementation and more do with the extended maintenance of driver issues that would need to take place prior to official release. (then again, I suppose OpenGL drivers are a hell of a lot better for Linux and OS X than they are for Windows)
and no server browsing, and no friends system, all would need to be made (don't even know if they'd be able to get lists from steam master servers, which would mean a split community)
you say that as if the community isn't already split. there's pro- and anti- combat, new models, new maps, new gameplay. not to mention the "pro" vs casual split. it's really more of a chasm than a split.
anyways, there is valve created linux code for some of their games - which would imply a linux steam client. when L4D was released for pre-loading, they accidentally released the linux code for that as well. what does this say? absolutely nothing, except that valve is working on linux releases to some extent.
<!--quoteo(post=1752431:date=Feb 11 2010, 01:55 PM:name=zimzum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zimzum @ Feb 11 2010, 01:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you say that as if the community isn't already split. there's pro- and anti- combat, new models, new maps, new gameplay. not to mention the "pro" vs casual split. it's really more of a chasm than a split.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep but at least then you can choose which side you want to play in, unless the linux/mac server browser would be able to connect to the steam master servers, I don't see how linux/mac players could play with people on the normal servers unless the whole thing is re-implemented, in which case, why bother with the steamworks version of all that
<!--quoteo(post=1752434:date=Feb 11 2010, 02:08 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Feb 11 2010, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yep but at least then you can choose which side you want to play in, unless the linux/mac server browser would be able to connect to the steam master servers, I don't see how linux/mac players could play with people on the normal servers unless the whole thing is re-implemented, in which case, why bother with the steamworks version of all that<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This answers your question:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now the issue of Steamworks. For those of you who don't know, Steamworks is the core technology of Steam, like the friends list, server browser and voice chat. We've integrated Steamworks into Natural Selection 2 because it saves us the effort of implementing these things ourselves, and gets the game into your hands faster. Unfortunately Steamworks (which essentially is the Steam client) only works on Windows. We've setup Natural Selection 2 to work without Steamworks, but you lose the services that it provides. For example, instead of being able to browse for a server you'd have to type in its address in the console to connect to it. For an OS X or Linux client, we'd have to substitute in our own implementation of those missing services.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As for the missing features, it shouldn't be too hard to provide them with external application, like XQF server browser. It works well, is stable and the source code is available. As long as NS2 is a good game, I wouldn't mind having to use external program at all.
By the way, I encourage anyone who wants a Linux/Mac version to <b>not</b> buy/preorder the game until a Linux/Mac version is announced. Otherwise you'll send the wrong message. You'll be saying Linux/Mac versions are not important because you bought the game anyway. For me there's no dillema - I don't have a windows partition anymore. I don't want it.
Comments
I would not be interested in some scheme were I buy the windows version and have to cobble together some supported version of Wine to make it work. I don't mind if it's packaged with wine under the covers. I just don't use wine myself and I don't want to have to care about that. As I've heard before, if you buy a game made for windows to play in wine then you've done just that, bought a game made for windows. I've still got a back log of recent native games that I've bought and haven't played yet. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough.
In general I don't pre-order software for reasons I won't go into here. But, if I see some commitment to provide a Linux port for NS2 before the promo offer expires, I will pre-order. I'm already a huge fan of Lugaru and I've been really pleased by several Indy companies with good games supporting of Linux in the last year or so. I'd like to encourage more of that. That and apparent quality of both games combined with the promo price appeals to my inner cheapskate.
I don't expect anything but work is going to keep me online late tonight, so I'll keep watch. Even If there isn't a commitment before the pre-order promo expires, as I said above if a Linux version of NS2 comes out I'd probably buy it.
Edd
I want LINUX support !!!! (untill then i ll play on windows x( )
What about offer the same for NS2 ??
Obs: I think that split the CD-keys in steam and non-steam users is a really bad ideia. It'd force the plp who intend to switch from Windows to Linux buy the game twice!
I'm not saying I don't wish it was possible, but I'm just saying it's unrealistic to expect or demand it.
It wont happen. Sorry guys.
VVV: And now you don't have to have any doubt!
"NS2 on Linux, Show your intrest" (sic)
I'm not saying I don't wish it was possible, but I'm just saying it's unrealistic to expect or demand it.
It wont happen. Sorry guys.
VVV: And now you don't have to have any doubt!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX" target="_blank">http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-sh...and-not-DirectX</a>
:) I was waiting for someone to post this article! I knew it was inevitable since UWE paired with the Overgrowth guys. I did not, however, expect a one quote reply without any kind of support or outlines. Classy.
There are plenty of counter-points to this article, and some of the things suggested in that article are just plain disingenuous.
Here are two of my favorite and most well rounded replies of that article, both of which I relate to in my own experiences:
(from <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidRosen/20100108/4051/Why_You_Should_Use_OpenGL_And_Not_DirectX.php" target="_blank">that exact blog post but on Gamasutra</a>)
<!--QuoteBegin-"Rob Jones"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Rob Jones")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I should probably take the time to form a decent rebuttal to this article, however for now I'll stick with the following.
I was an OpenGL programmer for 8 years, the last year or two of that time was spent waiting for the ARB to do something decent with the API before I finally gave up and moved across to D3D10 then D3D11 where I am now.
On the power aspect, yes for small batches of draws on XP there was/is a problem. This was the whole reason behind the instancing system being introduced to sidestep the design issue of jumping into the kernel on every draw call. As I recall Vista fixed that problem for DX9 and DX10 and 11 don't have that problem.
As for the newest GPU features, well last I checked there are no extensions out for D3D11 features and it was missing a large chunk of D3D10 and 10.1 features. Those which did exist quickly came only for NV as AMD was slow to adopt them and get their implimentation up to task. The tessellation extension which was linked to didn't become public until sometime last year and is only 1/3 (at most) of the tessellation supported in D3D11, so to claim that it is the same is very dishonest and incorrect.
My biggest amusement however came from this line, in fact I got a strange look in the office when I burst out laughing;
"If there's anything about OpenGL that you don't like, then just ask the ARB to change it -- they exist to serve you!"
Oh, but if only this was the truth, because if it was then we wouldn't have the abortion which is GL3.1, instead we would have got Longs Peak, a nice new clean API which would have been better than D3D10 and probably D3D11. However, despite it being 'almost ready' for some time it died a silent death due to corporate reasons behind the scenes.
During those 8 years of usage I watched the ARB fumble and fail with OpenGL as MS learnt from its mistakes and improved the API with each iteration. The Longs Peak/GL3.0 mess was the last straw for myself and many others before they departed the API for a company who seems to know what they are doing.
Finally, while I have no direct quote handy, Carmacks most recent comments about D3D indicates that he likes what MS have done with it. The fact that everyone pulls out that 10 year old quote to try and attack D3D is a sad statement about OpenGL as well.
Until OpenGL gets all the features, the docs, the tools, the support and the stability of drivers that D3D has it is going to be on a losing footing and the ARB has, in the last 10 years or so, shown no indication that it can pull this off. As a developer this is what matters the most.
MS might well have a 'strangle hold' on things but at least they are getting things done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-"Giuseppe Navarria"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Giuseppe Navarria")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I love your team and Overgrowth but this article is truly unfair, when you say "OpenGL is Cross-Platform" you're speaking mainly about OpenGL ES. OpenGL runs only on PC.
Also let's clarify that PS3 doesn't use only OpenGL ES and Nintendo WII has his own SDK and libraries.
OpenGL API structure is bloated, outdated, not object-oriented and should be rewritten from scratch, DirectX SDK not only includes a graphic library (Direct3D) but several other kind of libraries and tools. And better to not even start talking about D3DvsOGL APIs documentation ;)
OpenGL isn't actually that open, it's in the hands of the mayor companies of the Khronos Group (Apple Inc., Intel, Nvidia, Sony, Sun Microsystem to name a few) and it's not you nor me that decide anything over it.
About being "the future" and "more powerful": OpenGL only recently deprecated the use of non vertex-buffer based geometry and the structure is still chained to a lot of deprecated garbage, and there are no plans to get rid of that in the near future.
I've build our own engine with both an OpenGL and a Direct3D renderer plugin and guess what, the D3D one is clean and slim, the OGL one was a lot trickier to do.
Direct3D is a much, much better API than OpenGL, even Carmack that's a member of the Khronos Group admitted it.
Over this practically objective fact, both APIs are just tools, if you need to develop for something that's not DirectX compatible you can surely bet on OpenGL, If you aim at at PC\XBOX you're in DirectX realm. If you get an engine that can use both, that's even better.
In the end, OpenGL is a necessary evil for a lot of platforms, but it should copy DirectX and improve. Saying that OpenGL is better is covering his own eyes, OpenGL sucks. But it's the only thing you can use in a lot of cases.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not saying that Linux sucks, that OpenGL sucks, that anything about wanting a linux platform sucks. It would indeed be awesome, but don't expect it because it's unrealistic in a for-profit market for UWE to support and redo everything in OpenGL at this stage in development. Perhaps I shouldn't put words into the developer's mouths, but I wont be surprised if they don't want to piss anyone off by essentially saying 'sorry guys aint gonna happen'.
I should qualify all this by saying that I'm doing my own project in OpenGL since I kinda like it honestly, and I'm fortunate enough that my project isn't demanding enough to use any weird ARB features that might have spotty hardware support.
EDIT: To qualify this all further.
If the NS2 devs do release an OpenGL/Linux version, I <b>WILL</b> eat my hat. I will record it on youtube and make a thread about it.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Nazis may have had a 'strangle hold' on things but at least they got things done.
Everybody's always saying "it would be awesome if more stuff came out on Linux" and "it sucks that it doesn't", but you're never going to break the cycle by going along with it. You're right that it's too late to change your mind this far into development, but what if they'd planned it in the beginning? They would have code specifically written to be easily translated from one API to another. The only reason I'm here is because of this quote:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right now it runs on Windows but we also plan on fully supporting OS X, Linux and Xbox 360.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So I do reckon there's still hope for it - you may yet eat your hat.
really looking forward to the hat eating video. Can we choose the hat?
really looking forward to the hat eating video. Can we choose the hat?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, it has to be an edible hat. I might make a nacho hat, or a fruit hat.
<!--quoteo(post=1747624:date=Jan 17 2010, 01:04 AM:name=wilbefast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wilbefast @ Jan 17 2010, 01:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1747624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Nazis may have had a 'strangle hold' on things but at least they got things done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Words cannot describe how this makes me feel (good). You should get a job at Fox on something, they draw Hitler analogies all the goddamn time in the most inappropriate times, this not being an exception.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I do reckon there's still hope for it - you may yet eat your hat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I kind of want to, honestly. It'd be funny and we'd get multiplatform NS2! Again I'm not against it I just.. think it's silly to expect it :( I'm so jaded
;)
Ever heard of Godwin's law? I couldn't resist :-P
Don't compare me to Fox - that's a serious insult: far worse than being compared to Hitler. Besides, I merely was *implying* - *imp-ly-ing*!
Long story short, uf there's any suggestion of steamworks being a problem, it's very bad news for Cross Platform NS2. Then again, Valve is/was/will be possible/maybe/perhaps porting games to Linux in the never/far/non-existent future. By which I mean that they once planned to do it, but since then we've heard nothing about it. So maybe they're just hoping that people forget =P
A bigger problem is the Organic Preorder pack - Wolfire is getting a <b>very</b> raw deal as:
A - there are more NS2 preorders (and there are a <b>lot</b> of you guys) => more free copies of Overgrowth than NS2.
B - giving a free copy of NS2 to somebody who's ordered Overgrowth for Linux or Mac is <b>not</b> giving them a free copy if there's no Mac or Linux NS2.
Long story short, uf there's any suggestion of steamworks being a problem, it's very bad news for Cross Platform NS2. Then again, Valve is/was/will be possible/maybe/perhaps porting games to Linux in the never/far/non-existent future. By which I mean that they once planned to do it, but since then we've heard nothing about it. So maybe they're just hoping that people forget =P
A bigger problem is the Organic Preorder pack - Wolfire is getting a <b>very</b> raw deal as:
A - there are more NS2 preorders (and there are a <b>lot</b> of you guys) => more free copies of Overgrowth than NS2.
B - giving a free copy of NS2 to somebody who's ordered Overgrowth for Linux or Mac is <b>not</b> giving them a free copy if there's no Mac or Linux NS2.
As long as UWE is not announcing officialy that there will be noc mac/linux version, they profit from the sales, because usualy linux and mac people tend to be more supportive to game companies that make a game for their platform. I hope not.. but from all the signs lately... even though i'm not exactly sure they can do that, the bad publicity would be quite bad if the size of this thread has anything todo with the amount of linux people that preordered.
I certainly hope that I'll be able to play this natively on Linux.
At least I'll have my Overgrowth Linux Client.
You guys should also check out "Primal Carnage". It's a Human vs Dinosaur multiplayer game with release planned for Q4 2010.
They already have working Linux builds right now for both 32bit and 64bit. (mostly due to the Unigine engine)
Everyone who preorders will have guaranteed beta access, but they don't offer preorder yet.
The game might be good, but the main thing here probably is the Unigine SDK and the Primal Carnage SDK that will come with it. So it's going to be the modders paradise. Finally state of the art-looking mods/games for Linux again.
There are plenty of counter-points to this article, and some of the things suggested in that article are just plain disingenuous.
Here are two of my favorite and most well rounded replies of that article, both of which I relate to in my own experiences:
(from <a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidRosen/20100108/4051/Why_You_Should_Use_OpenGL_And_Not_DirectX.php" target="_blank">that exact blog post but on Gamasutra</a>)
I am not saying that Linux sucks, that OpenGL sucks, that anything about wanting a linux platform sucks. It would indeed be awesome, but don't expect it because it's unrealistic in a for-profit market for UWE to support and redo everything in OpenGL at this stage in development. Perhaps I shouldn't put words into the developer's mouths, but I wont be surprised if they don't want to piss anyone off by essentially saying 'sorry guys aint gonna happen'.
I should qualify all this by saying that I'm doing my own project in OpenGL since I kinda like it honestly, and I'm fortunate enough that my project isn't demanding enough to use any weird ARB features that might have spotty hardware support.
EDIT: To qualify this all further.
If the NS2 devs do release an OpenGL/Linux version, I <b>WILL</b> eat my hat. I will record it on youtube and make a thread about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ha, prepare to eat your hat man! -> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/2/spark_engine_questions_and_answers_1" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010...s_and_answers_1</a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Well let the issue be avoided no longer! Currently our engine and tools only work on Windows, and that will be the only platform Natural Selection 2 will be available on at release. However, most of the engine is not platform specific. The largest Windows-specific piece is the low level rendering code which is built on Direct3D. In the interest of having our engine run on Linux and OS X someday, this low level rendering code is wrapped up so that it's mostly separate from the rest of the engine. With a small amount of effort, we can swap out this piece with an OpenGL implementation that will work on Linux and OS X. </b>All of our tools are built using the cross-platform wxWidgets framework, so once we get the engine working on another platform, bringing the tools over won't be too much work.
<b>Now that I've convinced you that we've taken steps to allow us to bring our engine to other platforms, you might be wondering why we don't just go ahead and do it. The answer is simple; we don't have the time right now.</b> As an alternative to doing it ourselves, we've considered "open sourcing" or publishing the low-level APIs for the pieces that are Windows specific and inviting community members to contribute their own implementation. If you like this idea let me know in the comments.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hope it's not a red hat dude!
You really think he was coding a game in C#? Companies just don't do that. Kids messing around with XNA do that. C++ is the industry standard (except for id, which still insists on C).
Also, you're wrong about it being difficult to change the graphics layer after it's been coded in the engine. The renderer is probably (usually) just abstracted upon. OpenGL and DirectX are both rendering APIs, and their fundamentals are tenets of graphics programming, not specifics of the API. All that would need to be done, then, is to change the rendering code while keeping whatever abstractions everything in the engine uses to interact with it.
It's not incredibly easy, but it's also not an incredibly daunting task if the abstractions are well-implemented. The hard part isn't porting to OpenGL, it's what comes after -- that is to say, keeping track of twice the amount of driver-related bugs and inconsistencies. I'd imagine that most games choosing to not go cross-platform has less to do with the initial cost of implementation and more do with the extended maintenance of driver issues that would need to take place prior to official release. (then again, I suppose OpenGL drivers are a hell of a lot better for Linux and OS X than they are for Windows)
anyways, there is valve created linux code for some of their games - which would imply a linux steam client. when L4D was released for pre-loading, they accidentally released the linux code for that as well. what does this say? absolutely nothing, except that valve is working on linux releases to some extent.
Yep but at least then you can choose which side you want to play in, unless the linux/mac server browser would be able to connect to the steam master servers, I don't see how linux/mac players could play with people on the normal servers unless the whole thing is re-implemented, in which case, why bother with the steamworks version of all that
This answers your question:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now the issue of Steamworks. For those of you who don't know, Steamworks is the core technology of Steam, like the friends list, server browser and voice chat. We've integrated Steamworks into Natural Selection 2 because it saves us the effort of implementing these things ourselves, and gets the game into your hands faster. Unfortunately Steamworks (which essentially is the Steam client) only works on Windows. We've setup Natural Selection 2 to work without Steamworks, but you lose the services that it provides. For example, instead of being able to browse for a server you'd have to type in its address in the console to connect to it. For an OS X or Linux client, we'd have to substitute in our own implementation of those missing services.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010/2/spark_engine_questions_and_answers_1" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/news/2010...s_and_answers_1</a>
As for the missing features, it shouldn't be too hard to provide them with external application, like XQF server browser. It works well, is stable and the source code is available. As long as NS2 is a good game, I wouldn't mind having to use external program at all.
By the way, I encourage anyone who wants a Linux/Mac version to <b>not</b> buy/preorder the game until a Linux/Mac version is announced. Otherwise you'll send the wrong message. You'll be saying Linux/Mac versions are not important because you bought the game anyway. For me there's no dillema - I don't have a windows partition anymore. I don't want it.