NS2 on Linux

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Comments

  • HolodoctorHolodoctor Join Date: 2009-05-28 Member: 67526Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1735611:date=Nov 2 2009, 07:56 PM:name=wilbefast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wilbefast @ Nov 2 2009, 07:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, what?!

    How much moddable do you want than Open Source? No offence but I can't let that stand: never, in the history of the internet, has somebody been more wrong /:-J

    You deserve a medal or something XD<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh, thanks professor, I meant a moddable game with Up-to-date graphics. There are so many ID-Tech3 (aka quake3 engine) mods out there, that I can't stand seeing them anymore.
    Btw. I can't really understand your sentence there with moddable in it.
    Maybe you've forgotten a "more" in your nerd rage there.
    Ogre and so on ain't looking much better either. And modding for Ogre was made overly complicated due to the high modularity.
  • borsukborsuk Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67717Members
    edited November 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1735000:date=Oct 31 2009, 01:49 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Oct 31 2009, 01:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You realise that lovely little graph with windows at the bottom is portraying people from the OS which bought a specific game, not a market share?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As a game developer, would you care more about market share or people who <b>actually buy your game</b> ? It's not surprising at all that Linux gamers can buy games more often. It's better to be a big fish in a small pond. Windows world is saturated with FPS games. Linux gamers have comparatively little to choose from. Additionaly, I guess Linux people are more passionate about getting more games.

    Facts can't be denied. In "name your own price" birthday sales of World of Goo:

    1) Linux sales made up around 17% of total, as much as Mac
    2) Linux people paid at least 1 dollar more, on average, than windows people. This is significant, because average prices were: slightly over $2.5 for Mac, nearly $2 for Windows.

    <a href="http://2dboy.com/2009/10/26/pay-what-you-want-birthday-sale-wrap-up/" target="_blank">http://2dboy.com/2009/10/26/pay-what-you-w...y-sale-wrap-up/</a>
  • derWalterderWalter Join Date: 2008-10-29 Member: 65323Members
    linux version? I'm in!
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Members
    edited November 2009
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All and all. The linux user base in comparison to the windows version would be significantly lower. That doesn't mean that it is not worth your time to make a linux version. You could yield significant gain by supporting our platform. I wouldnt expect many people to pre-order with anticipation of a linux client and i would encourage them not to as a result of what happened with unreal tournament 3. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pull about 25% of your sales from linux users, and that is a very conservative figure. Its unlikely you will get very many people to post here right now, as games not on our platform are not relative to our interests. However even doing so much as a declaration of a linux port would set the news feeds on fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The logical fallacy here is that you're suggesting that "25% of sales from Linux users" wouldn't exist at all without a Linux version. Most people who use Linux also use Windows. However if they're using Linux in the first place, it's obvious they prefer it to Windows, so it's logical that they'll get the Linux version if it were available.

    <img src="http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4776/78591415.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    This is probably closer to reality. I know plenty of gamers who use Linux, but not a single one who ONLY uses Linux.

    Without a Linux version, yes, you'll lose out on some sales, that's obvious enough. The game is the same on every platform, and the idea that a "gamer" is going to refuse to buy it because even though he has a perfectly functional copy of Windows that will work he'd PREFER it for Linux for no real reason is downright pathetic. As is listening to borsuk's boring rhetoric about how Windows gamers are clearly all moronic fat losers and Linux users are hyper-intelligent descendants of the Master Race.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2009
    Linux people are usually not passionated gamers. They made the decision to not go with the flow of microsofts dominating OS including the awarness that there will be a lot less games developed to work with.
    (they are more into the free for all dreamland, programming, just want to save the money, or it just gives them the hackerz/it feeling they desire to fullfill the stereotype they wanna show the world - yes i mean you... and you! :P)

    Hmm, World of goo got a lot linux sales (as sidenote I cant find any trustable ratios but no big deal)
    At first World of Goo didnt make much sales because of - we all know - good ol piracy.
    So... they made a new deal + there came a linux release.

    - The deal was "pay as much as you want"
    - 57.000+ copys were sold.
    - 90% of this sales where under 3$ (mostly 1cent)

    What does it tell us? I dont know! - but it doesnt tell us, that linux "players" are into real games. (the price was too nice to not buy it, I d have bought it for my coffee machine if it were playable on it.)
    And it doesnt tell us if they dont have windows too(because they are gamers -> my entry sentence), but just bought it on linux because they like it more...

    PS: not naitive speaker, so save your gramma kidflames - i'm trying.
  • borsukborsuk Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67717Members
    Temphage: I'm adding you to my ignore list for
    1) being an annoying, disruptive troll with nothing constructive to say
    2) straw man, a.k.a. claiming I said things I haven't said.

    Just because I have plenty of free time doesn't mean I have to endure people like you.
  • L33F3RL33F3R Join Date: 2009-11-01 Member: 69210Members
    @Temphage

    You imply that most linux users also use windows. I am one of the people who are 100% linux, however linux/windows vs pure linux is closer to about 50/50. Most of these users would gladly use a game on linux if it was available but are restricted into a dual boot due to games, adobe software, ect.. I have never met 1 of them who says they would prefer to game on windows if a linux version was available. Take the etqw poll results for example. You imply that linux users will just play it on windows. If we wanted that, we would be buying windows software anyway and NS2 would be another fish in the lake. By supporting linux you open up a whole new market, not just people who know what natural selection is.

    -As for wine. It doesnt work well for direct x games. So thats out of the question. It would generate the same results as the above. I would have to deny much chance of this game being a success with linux gamers if it wasnt native.

    @Koruyo

    That price is more then most windows users pay for software regularly. Which last time I checked was far less then a penny. Piracy is less of an issue on our platform and its not due to lack of software being on it.

    Your stereotypical freedom tree hugging views of us are also false. I dont use linux because its freedom software (which is also great). I use it because it is a bleeding edge operating system that allows me to take full advantage of my hardware by yielding higher performances for pretty much everything. I also use it because it is a far more stable operating system. I have been a linux user for 5 years and only once have i ever crashed, and that was due to my own dumb fault. If you use Nvidia hardware, you are most likely using the closed source driver. Half of ATI users use the closed source driver. That means (assuming ati and nvidia share the premium graphics market) that AT MOST freetards account for 25% of linux enthusiasts. These people are not even included in the WoG results because WoG is closed source.

    - ETQW users love linux; the poll shows that. ETQW is not an indie game. There is a market out there whether you are blind to it or not. ETQW did not sell very well (i blame activision), but it wouldn't have sold nearly as well if ID didn't cultivate a Linux support base over the years.

    2 more cents. :)
  • snooggumssnooggums Join Date: 2009-09-18 Member: 68821Members
    I would play it on Linux instead of Windows if available and the rendering was comparable (ie FPS at the same settings). I only keep Windows due to gaming being the majority of my computer usage by time.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2009
    I was thinking about the whole OS problem, and my conclusion was - why do we care which doesnt have linux? We should stfu!

    Saying that, the real question nobody of us can answer is - does UWE have the knowledge, time and money to make it happen for linux?

    We dont know, and maybe UWE atm too. They are right to focus at the mainstream at first to pay their bills, and nobody can be mad about it.
    They are a real company now and not some freetime modders.

    IF its easy to port it for linux and gives a bit profit, it ll come - if not it wont - its that easy.
    Nobody of us got real market research numbers a company could rely on. (at least i never saw some sources, just the talking about them)

    So in the end we can talk as much as we want it wont help us nor uwe in making the decision.
    (just supporting for the love of supporting, doesnt pay the bills you know?)

    Poor linux users <3 i wish you that it ll come! (or you can live with booting up bad bad microsoft windows)
  • L33F3RL33F3R Join Date: 2009-11-01 Member: 69210Members
    to the best of my knowledge its not a hell of alot different than intel mac. If a port to mac was done then the extra mile is not a farcry.
  • RikkAndrsnRikkAndrsn Join Date: 2009-06-07 Member: 67741Members
    edited November 2009
    NS2's base-rendering is done in D3D. An Open GL version is possible, but it could possibly take a lot of time and optimization. Linux and Mac support should only be added in after the retail PC version is done, the sales won't be significant enough from those platforms to justify having a same-date release. Hell, more people probably have Dx10 and maybe even 11 than those who would buy the game from Linux.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1736091:date=Nov 4 2009, 03:43 PM:name=RikkAndrsn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RikkAndrsn @ Nov 4 2009, 03:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2's base-rendering is done in D3D. An Open GL version is possible, but it could possibly take a lot of time and optimization.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Where did you pull that from?
  • RikkAndrsnRikkAndrsn Join Date: 2009-06-07 Member: 67741Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1736135:date=Nov 4 2009, 12:44 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Nov 4 2009, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736135"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where did you pull that from?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Engine" target="_blank">I made it up.</a>
  • SekerSeker Join Date: 2007-03-06 Member: 60259Members
    Oh, you pinned him there :P

    Though I would like to see it happen on linux... but better later then never, eh ?
  • BloodyIronBloodyIron Join Date: 2009-11-09 Member: 69321Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I would also be interested in seeing NS2 on Linux. TBH, I would only play it on Linux if they supported it similarly to how S2 supports Heroes of Newerth (simultaneous patching, developer support, etc).

    I prepaid for HoN when it first came available as it was running so well on Linux already. I hope to see this for NS2 and would be very grateful. Yum. :)
  • tmpdirtmpdir Join Date: 2009-11-09 Member: 69325Members
    Linux support would definitly make me buy this game.

    Wine compatability would make me think about buying this game.
  • SvartalfSvartalf Join Date: 2009-11-10 Member: 69340Members
    edited November 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1735831:date=Nov 3 2009, 02:54 PM:name=L33F3R)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L33F3R @ Nov 3 2009, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735831"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Temphage

    You imply that most linux users also use windows. I am one of the people who are 100% linux, however linux/windows vs pure linux is closer to about 50/50. Most of these users would gladly use a game on linux if it was available but are restricted into a dual boot due to games, adobe software, ect.. I have never met 1 of them who says they would prefer to game on windows if a linux version was available. Take the etqw poll results for example. You imply that linux users will just play it on windows. If we wanted that, we would be buying windows software anyway and NS2 would be another fish in the lake. By supporting linux you open up a whole new market, not just people who know what natural selection is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'd say, based on the sales for Caster3D (which I can't disclose numbers, but...), I'd place it a lot closer to 60/40 or 70/30. The port work I've done so far has outsold
    the Windows and MacOS sales- and we're not getting into the stalled due to personal issues port to ARM so we can get Pandora, Beagleboard, Maemo, and Android 2.0
    versions out.

    If it'll run on an OpenGL ES 2.0 system, and doesn't need more than about a PIII 600, the title in question will run on Pandora, N9XX, and at least the Verizon Droid,
    and maybe the Pre if I can pry enough native access info out of Matthew Tippett (Formerly of AMD) over at Palm once he gets settled in with his new job. Caster
    will.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-As for wine. It doesnt work well for direct x games. So thats out of the question. It would generate the same results as the above. I would have to deny much chance of this game being a success with linux gamers if it wasnt native.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Not to mention if it's in the right performance profile if native, WINE won't get you onto any of the new hot smartphones or the next gen of handhelds- but a native port will. :cool:

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Koruyo

    That price is more then most windows users pay for software regularly. Which last time I checked was far less then a penny. Piracy is less of an issue on our platform and its not due to lack of software being on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Heh... I saw royalties with the last port project I did. I hope to see the same deal with the completion of the next phase of it (alluded to above...).

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your stereotypical freedom tree hugging views of us are also false. I dont use linux because its freedom software (which is also great). I use it because it is a bleeding edge operating system that allows me to take full advantage of my hardware by yielding higher performances for pretty much everything. I also use it because it is a far more stable operating system. I have been a linux user for 5 years and only once have i ever crashed, and that was due to my own dumb fault. If you use Nvidia hardware, you are most likely using the closed source driver. Half of ATI users use the closed source driver. That means (assuming ati and nvidia share the premium graphics market) that AT MOST freetards account for 25% of linux enthusiasts. These people are not even included in the WoG results because WoG is closed source.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I wish you'd not use "freetards" L33F3R... Paints us as being off, you know...

    As for being described as a "tree hugger"...heh...

    I use Linux for the freedom, but also because of the overall power and efficiency of the system. Not to mention it pays <i><b>well</b></i> to develop telecom systems with it. :-D

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- ETQW users love linux; the poll shows that. ETQW is not an indie game. There is a market out there whether you are blind to it or not. ETQW did not sell very well (i blame activision), but it wouldn't have sold nearly as well if ID didn't cultivate a Linux support base over the years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The only debacle that iD really regrets with Linux would be the one where Loki Games screwed up on their logistics for the release of Q3:A and the Linux crowd (who held the dual-boot or we can buy the Windows version and "patch" it philosophy) bought the Windows version in droves and converted the install to a Linux version- end result, they only sold 200 copies. Because of the way that Loki botched the run (something like 50k units...) they ended up owing iD over a quarter mil in royalties alone. Now, that's not reflective of the market then or now- just an observation why you don't order a production run of about fifty thousand copies coupled with fifty thousand of those silly special edition tins they ordered for them all. (For the record, I have one of the official 200 retail sales of it for Linux... :-D )
  • SvartalfSvartalf Join Date: 2009-11-10 Member: 69340Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1736081:date=Nov 4 2009, 02:58 PM:name=L33F3R)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L33F3R @ Nov 4 2009, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736081"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->to the best of my knowledge its not a hell of alot different than intel mac. If a port to mac was done then the extra mile is not a farcry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    In the large, yes. Depends on the sound lib and a few other choices. If you have the port to MacOS, you have an OpenGL renderer,
    which comprises the typical bulk of the challenge on porting a Windows game over to Linux or MacOS- and if you're already doing
    OpenGL (whether or not you do a Direct3D backend or not...), you've rid yourself of that step out of the gate. If you then use
    SDL for input handling and base setup, something like OpenAL or OpenAL&cAudio, or perhaps FMOD or IrrKlang, you end up with
    the bulk of the code being there. For network, if you're using RakNet, Grapple, or something home-rolled against BSD Sockets, you've
    even got that handled.
  • bourbon36bourbon36 Join Date: 2009-11-10 Member: 69341Members
    edited November 2009
    i would loved to see NS2 come for linux please.

    PS: Good luck with the release.
  • newbsternewbster Join Date: 2009-11-11 Member: 69347Members
    Yes, a Linux port would be just lovely!

    I know I would buy it!
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    As I asked early in this topic:

    How many of you who say you would buy a Linux version would not buy NS2 at all if it is only available in Windows.

    I'd love a version on Linux but:
    a) I don't want a Linux version if it delays the initial release
    b) I don't want a Linux version if it requires an extra developer to be hired to support it ( soaking up limited cash )
    c) I'd rather see HLTV or equivalent as a feature and all the ancillary server management infrastructure to be mature and reliable
    d) Running it under wine would be fine by me
    e) I dual boot for gaming anyway, and so do the rest of you. So just add NS2 to your list of reasons to reboot to windows

    I've bought many games on Linux - Quake 3 and mindrover are two that spring to mind, but I just want my NS2 more than I want my gaming to be on Linux.

    Edit: I should add that there is a hardcore linux gaming scene that get very excited about any game being supported as a native linux application. So, if a native NS2 was available, we would surely get flooded with attention from the Linux gaming scene.
  • ScytheScythe Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver
    I agree with puzl.

    Don't delay the initial release, but make a point of getting around to it within six months after release.

    --Scythe--
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1737187:date=Nov 11 2009, 12:35 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Nov 11 2009, 12:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many of you who say you would buy a Linux version would not buy NS2 at all if it is only available in Windows.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's been my entire point through out the thread as well, although people whipped out graphs to try and help their cause.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1737191:date=Nov 11 2009, 08:33 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Nov 11 2009, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737191"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's been my entire point through out the thread as well, although people whipped out graphs to try and help their cause.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The problem is that many linux gamers resent the fact that they are marginal because it is self-perpetuating. Because it's a marginal market there are no games developed for linux. Because there are no games developed for linux the market stays marginal. They figure if they can get enough good games on linux it will break the cycle. It may not be the biggest market, but it is pretty loyal and the RoR is there if not gangbusters. So no, it may not be worth it for the game financially, but it may be worth it for the company in the long run, and, as previously noted, larger games being made for linux are "newsworthy" and you do get some "free" publicity if in smaller circles. I don't think either of you are really "wrong'.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    I'm not opposed to games on Linux, I'm all for it. I just don't think for a small development company in a global recession it is financially viable right now.
  • bourbon36bourbon36 Join Date: 2009-11-10 Member: 69341Members
    I don't use wine all any form of it , if its not native i don't play it all use it , I'm a Linux only person , last time i use windows was win 98... all my work is Linux related so yeah. dual booting just for games is not for me i rather just one "OS" no point for 2 ,3 etc but I'm not going to beg for the game to come on Linux either , but if it does i will support it & buy it its nice to get a bone thrown to us now & then :) .


    PS: i wouldn't like to see the windows release be hinder by the Linux , mac versions , release the windows one first & i hope its a great success for yous , then go on from there , then if you think its not fessable to release Linux version be that! but don't taunt the the Linux community about a client version still might come a year later etc like epic did for UT3 its one way to lose respect , a yes or no will do.
  • borsukborsuk Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67717Members
    Let's not forget wine is getting advanced enough you can run windows viruses with it.
    <a href="http://blog.opensourcenerd.com/i-can-haz-virus" target="_blank">http://blog.opensourcenerd.com/i-can-haz-virus</a>
  • OBhaveOBhave Join Date: 2003-03-13 Member: 14462Members, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    +1 on the Linux port, but only after release when and if there are no other more pressing concerns.


    And btw, it should definately NOT be free for people who have already paid for the Windows version. MAYBE, just MAYBE there'll be a discount... but the point is, we should really be GRATEFUL here, and show your gratitude in deeds, not just words. After all not a lot of companies make Linux ports (yet).

    And I mean think about it... is a PS3 version of a game free for those who bought the game on Xbox? ... hell no.


    P.S. I'm looking forward to the IdTech5 engine (used by their upcoming game Rage) ... supposedly that engine tech is going to make porting WAY easier. So maybe in the future we'll have a gaming world that wont be so segregated anymore...
  • SekerSeker Join Date: 2007-03-06 Member: 60259Members
    Didn't UWE somewhere say that the actual part which needs to be ported is relative small compared to the rest ?

    And yea you should buy it again... This could be a good reason for UWE to port it.
  • snooggumssnooggums Join Date: 2009-09-18 Member: 68821Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1737317:date=Nov 12 2009, 08:10 AM:name=OBhave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OBhave @ Nov 12 2009, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1737317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 on the Linux port, but only after release when and if there are no other more pressing concerns.


    And btw, it should definately NOT be free for people who have already paid for the Windows version. MAYBE, just MAYBE there'll be a discount... but the point is, we should really be GRATEFUL here, and show your gratitude in deeds, not just words. After all not a lot of companies make Linux ports (yet).

    And I mean think about it... is a PS3 version of a game free for those who bought the game on Xbox? ... hell no.


    P.S. I'm looking forward to the IdTech5 engine (used by their upcoming game Rage) ... supposedly that engine tech is going to make porting WAY easier. So maybe in the future we'll have a gaming world that wont be so segregated anymore...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The PS3 version of a game for those that bought it on Xbox requires a second disk, and since you can resell those disks there is a reason to charge a second time (for PC the same install key could be used for both so only one could be used online at a time and you could only sell the one key if that was possible). Downloading a Linux version of this game would be the same as downloading a second copy of the Windows version to reinstall, so unless they want to charge to recoup the costs of the Linux port and they also charged for separate Mac installs charging for a 'second copy' would not need to be a requirement.

    A good example is Id in this case. If you purchased a retail copy of Doom3 for Windows you can download and install a Linux version using that Windows install but can't use both at the same time. Since NS2 will be digitally distributed being able to have both versions but use one at a time is the logical way to proceed.
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