skulks vs (light) marines
Racer1
Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
For a long time, I've wondered why ns places the same value on a marine as it does a skulk. The way I perceived it from the start, skulks are (or should be) cannon fodder for the marines. Consequently, I thought it was odd when ns gave the same res for kills both directions (especially in ns v3). In order to make this balance work, skulks have been made more powerful -- even more so for ns2.
Why not instead make skulks weaker but their deaths less important on both sides? That is, skulks would be weaker (both in health and damage) but slightly faster, and marines would get significantly less res for killing a skulk than vice versa. Additionally, skulks could spawn faster (instantly?) and even possibly have mini-spawns closer to the action.
I realize this is just a gameplay choice, but I am curious of the reasoning.
Why not instead make skulks weaker but their deaths less important on both sides? That is, skulks would be weaker (both in health and damage) but slightly faster, and marines would get significantly less res for killing a skulk than vice versa. Additionally, skulks could spawn faster (instantly?) and even possibly have mini-spawns closer to the action.
I realize this is just a gameplay choice, but I am curious of the reasoning.
Comments
A marine with a1/w1 has the advantage over a skulk with one chamber upgrade, all things considered.
It evens out.
This is very arguable. The conventional viewpoint is that celerity vs no upgrade resupply is balanced as seen in combat, but I don't agree with the same thing in ns_. The vectors of alien attack can be much more unpredictable and map/gameplay features tend to screw marines at every opportunity given.
um. What bearing does Combat have on Classic? Furthermore, w1/a1 is not "no upgrade". I honestly can't believe someone brought it up. *shrugs* that aside, I suck as a skulk. Can never seem to find the hit boxes of those stupid jumping marines.
um. What bearing does Combat have on Classic? Furthermore, w1/a1 is not "no upgrade". I honestly can't believe someone brought it up. *shrugs* that aside, I suck as a skulk. Can never seem to find the hit boxes of those stupid jumping marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reading comprehension?
Here is the digested version for you:
1) The CONVENTIONAL viewpoint is that a0/w0 resupply is balanced against aliens in combat, and this is true and this is why invidious assumes that marines are stronger than aliens. That and plus he has never played against terror/exi aliens.
2) I believe that NS =!= CO and aliens are individually stronger in NS.
I suggest you get some practice in quake live, it will make you a much better NS player.
Reading comprehension?Here is the digested version for you: 1) The CONVENTIONAL viewpoint is that a0/w0 resupply is balanced against aliens in combat, and this is true and this is why invidious assumes that marines are stronger than aliens. That and plus he has never played against terror/exi aliens. 2) I believe that NS =!= CO and aliens are individually stronger in NS. I suggest you get some practice in quake live, it will make you a much better NS player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have played against terror/exi because I was in delta. So your assumption is false.
A single marine with w1/a1 against a single celerity skulk was expected to prevail.
You honestly disagree with this?
I never said "marines were stronger than aliens". Alien ties were far more common than marine ties in those days.
the rest is just meh
I've always found the struggle over the 2nd hive with mid-tier tech to be the most fun.
Oh yes, this reminds me:
<i><b>Stop getting SCs first instead of MCs on anything bigger than 4v4!</i></b>
You know who you are. *squint* Many a game has been steamrolled because of the skulk's inability to use speed/silence.
And while we're on that topic, scan and observatories need some reworking with SCs, since a smart and economically stable commander can use these to effectively force cease and desist the Kharaa's SCs. So ultimately, 15(?) res anywhere, aliens have half a chamber (scent is probably as useful in a fight as much as others, cloak is ruined, and focus is too slow after mid-tier/HA at 10 minutes). This is probably why people should re-prioritise on some servers and get into the habit of having DCs 2nd.
Maybe instead of perma-bust cloak, it would:
(with approx. 3 "pings" a scan? instead of about 20)
Units: Be marked similar to motion tracking, plus a fuzzy outline, until they move away far enough.
Buildings: Same, except since stationary, are partially visible for full duration.
SC AoE: Severely limited, allowing some cloaking hotspots, but not enough to allow aliens to ignore the raised importance of eliminating nearby Obs.
You need focus against skilled jetpackers. That's pretty much the entire reason to take sensory second over defense, and it's a good one.
Oh yeah.
Still though, JPs can wield SGs pre-adv armory, and HMGs post, so they're generally awkward period. Along with the various other imbalances or difficulties playing as aliens, I guess I figured it was safer to DC spam hives etc, using their mass healing abilities to provide a stronger resistance while a skulks gradually try... to... push HAs, JPs and sieges back from...
###### it. I'm tired of NS1. Obviously I'm just not finding any good games lately like last week, for that one hour or so... :(
Still though, JPs can wield SGs pre-adv armory, and HMGs post, so they're generally awkward period. Along with the various other imbalances or difficulties playing as aliens, I guess I figured it was safer to DC spam hives etc, using their mass healing abilities to provide a stronger resistance while a skulks gradually try... to... push HAs, JPs and sieges back from... ###### it. I'm tired of NS1. Obviously I'm just not finding any good games lately like last week, for that one hour or so... :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need an AA to get a proto in order to research JPs.
Brush up on NS1 basics.
Brush up on NS1 basics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OUCH, that's a big miss right there.
A single marine with w1/a1 against a single celerity skulk was expected to prevail.
You honestly disagree with this?
I never said "marines were stronger than aliens". Alien ties were far more common than marine ties in those days.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An unwritten skulk rule was: get a kill or guarantee the next skulk two kills. If this doesn't happen, you lose your RT.
Jetpacks and HA need to be nerfed in NS2. Focus and carapace need to be removed. They aren't fun abilities for the other team to deal with.
NS2 is going to be nothing like NS1.
I disagree with every single one of your points here.
Jetpacks and HA need to be nerfed in NS2. Focus and carapace need to be removed. They aren't fun abilities for the other team to deal with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly: I <3 alien because I feel sorry for them because they have it so rough. It's too easy for me to play rine with a decent comm/comm with a decent team. Aliens don't have anyone else to rely on except anyone willing to help you, unike rines who all have the comm to help out. So I forgot that detail about AA -> Proto, mainly because of those few occasions were SG proved more OP than HMG in some hands according to the alarming number of times I have died by said few who prefer such a combo.
Secondly: @quote:
Skulk: Agree, that is pretty true.
JP, HA: Agree, JP are ###### irritating to hit, and HA are impossible to deal with, moreso in trains, without expert fade + onos squads.
Focus is annoying to fight against, since it's a one-hitter, but HA denies it and in fact renders that fade in a even more vulnerable position. Similarly, SGs need to be nerfed because they are also one-hitters too often. It's not fun to be made helpless and it's less challenging if you <i>blink at things to death</i>.
Carapace on the other hand I disagree, it's the only thing to counter armour upgrades. Reducing the retardedly massive gap between normal/HA armor and making Onos/Cara more reasonable would help. Onos is a last resort, but he's better off disrupting buildings and sieges etc (as the new stun revision description for NS2 seems to indicate) rather than fending off multiple attackers, so impossible in a 1v1 sure, but still after 3v1? Besides, that's what fade escorts are for. Then gorge bile to clean up the mess.
I have always loved this mechanic on marine's and aliens. It makes you feed badass on marines and forces/allows you to coordinate your attacks as alien. Gives the feeling of the aliens "swarming" the marines.
The developers have said the skulk will be beefed up in NS2. This can be interpreted two ways:
1) a single skulk will be able to match a single marine
If this is the case then marines must be able to reinforce the map quicker (they seem to have introduced some kind of squad teleporting to might be aimed at fixing this). Sadly the great mechanic of by "strong" but "slow" marines traveling the map to fend of "weak" but "many" aliens will be lost.
2) the gap between the skulk and the fade has been narrowed
If this is the case than marines will cease to dominate early game and the technology progression (3 hives) must change completely. (probably happening anyways)
I am hoping is it more of the second than the first option. I love the mechanic that forces/allows skulks to rush across the map to outnumber marines in every engagement.
(ps, minor rant: make wall crawling EASIER! i want to wall RUN not wall FALL OFF IF IM NOT RAMMING MY FACE INTO THE CEILING! ....okay, okay ill hold shift to cling, fine)
I have always loved this mechanic on marine's and aliens. It makes you feed badass on marines and forces/allows you to coordinate your attacks as alien. Gives the feeling of the aliens "swarming" the marines.
The developers have said the skulk will be beefed up in NS2. This can be interpreted two ways:
1) a single skulk will be able to match a single marine
If this is the case then marines must be able to reinforce the map quicker (they seem to have introduced some kind of squad teleporting to might be aimed at fixing this). Sadly the great mechanic of by "strong" but "slow" marines traveling the map to fend of "weak" but "many" aliens will be lost.
2) the gap between the skulk and the fade has been narrowed
If this is the case than marines will cease to dominate early game and the technology progression (3 hives) must change completely. (probably happening anyways)
I am hoping is it more of the second than the first option. I love the mechanic that forces/allows skulks to rush across the map to outnumber marines in every engagement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not fun to lose your entire team to a vet who can basically aim so well he cant miss. This is why Marines are stacked in almost every game it takes just one person like this, expert aliens have no way of taking down a team of decent marines(pre-focus fade), but a single marine has the capability at the start of the game get 3-4 kills in his lmg clip, and 2 kills in his pistol.
The gap has changed between the fade and the skulk, dont see fade as your mid-game dominator anymore but the person who kills the heavy weaponry people/squad leaders etc then runs off, not tears the entire team apart with a celerity+focus combo. Skulks are your bread and butter now from all the info i can gather, not just placeholders for fades.
I can prolly tell you skulks on thier own will be having a really tough time killing a marine unless hes ambushing, but with a gorge now that will change due to the gorges better efficiency In combat, a blur on the marines from the spit and a *umbra/spore type* healing spray will allow skulks to have staying power in the fight, in ns1 the best a gorge could do is hope his spits do enough damage so the skulk has to bite one less time.
It <i>should</i> in theory be one on one, because as mentioned, nobody likes being cannon fodder, but it's actually entirely based on how good you are, a marine who doesn't know how to fight skulks or lacks the aim control will be unable to kill any skulks, similarly a skulk who lacks the precise timing required to actually hit anything as an alien will be unable to kill any marine.
The gap has changed between the fade and the skulk, dont see fade as your mid-game dominator anymore but the person who kills the heavy weaponry people/squad leaders etc then runs off, not tears the entire team apart with a celerity+focus combo. Skulks are your bread and butter now from all the info i can gather, not just placeholders for fades.
I can prolly tell you skulks on thier own will be having a really tough time killing a marine unless hes ambushing, but with a gorge now that will change due to the gorges better efficiency In combat, a blur on the marines from the spit and a *umbra/spore type* healing spray will allow skulks to have staying power in the fight, in ns1 the best a gorge could do is hope his spits do enough damage so the skulk has to bite one less time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your post is completely revoked by the presence of the lerk. It's not unheard of to go 20-0 as a combat lerk against pub marines.
i dont know anything about ns2 lerk so i left it out.
HOWEVER, it seems his massive support role is now been taken over by gorge(healing spray?)
HOWEVER, it seems his massive support role is now been taken over by gorge(healing spray?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think so. We know the lerk doesn't have bite and has some form of short ranged spikes. We also know the design goal it to make the lerk use a "strafe run" play style. This doesn't sound like a direct attack class to me, more like a harassment class. I wonder if it will keep umbra and spore, or if those will be combined to allow it to keep primal(I hope so).
Gorge will be a support class before and after battle(setting up traps, healing wounds) and the lerk will be a support class in battle(soften up marines on their way, provide cover and fire support)