Natural Selection 2 News Update - Knife + Pistol = Taser?



  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    edited August 2009
    <!--quoteo(post=1720569:date=Aug 4 2009, 10:50 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Aug 4 2009, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1720569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the problem with the taser aesthetically is the fact that its an electrical weapon, bordering on futuristic energy weapon, when the original NS carved out its distinctive marine universe with "gritty" (to quote the devs, I think?) old fashioned kinetic weapons and the taser just adds too much contrast to what we know of the rest of the marines arsenal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think a combination of nasty sound, yell of pain and maybe some from the victim could help it become quite gritty. A simple industrial looking device that is designed to toast everything it faces with an unnecessarily high amount of electricity. See impact hammer from UT as an example of similar design. Everything in it signals that it wasn't designed with comfort in mind.
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
    edited August 2009
    I like the concept and appreciate the Devs reasoning behind it, especially since I don't like how the pistol became a sniper. The pistol implementation always felt flawed in the sense it broke immersion for me like the marines moving fast by bouncing rather than sprinting, just an animation that threw me off.

    From a fluff/setting perspective, it would seem like a upgrade in the marine tech, since it was on buildings before in another form, the use of electricity as a weapon would make sense as a progression of the marine's attempting to adapt their tools to better face the threat of the Kharaa. It would make sense that in a world where the Kharaa carapace becomes so tough as to be comparible to the plasta-ceramic-steel material their space ships are formed from, that one would want to bypass that armor with something more effective than a sharp edge.

    I hope the Devs continue with the idea, even if it only morphs into a electrical baton or short sword. *shrug*

    For the destruction of buildings however, I always thought some sort of attachable bomb for both sides would be an improvement - yes I realize that is similar to the spy from TF2 but it doesn't make it any less of a good idea and doesn't have to implement exactly the same for both sides (in fact I would prefer it if it didn't) to still be fun. Like Bile Bomb becomes an actual acidic bomb over time or something.
  • |DFA| Havoc|DFA| Havoc Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68375Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1718758:date=Jul 22 2009, 02:06 PM:name=grepdashv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (grepdashv @ Jul 22 2009, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1718758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, the solution is not to give players a <i>melee</i> weapon. The solution, at the most basic level, is to give players a weapon that does not run out of ammo. Typically, such weapons are implemented as melee weapons, but that need not be the case. Another reason to make the "weapon of last resort" a melee weapon is that such weapons have a significant disadvantage in terms of range. On the other hand, melee weapons in NS behaved very strangely due to the HL engine's bizarre melee effects. One such oddity was that if an enemy landed on your head, you would often hit him with a melee attack, even if you weren't looking at him. Lag effects (from network or video) are exacerbated at close range, so melee weapons can be an incredible source of frustration in general. For better or worse, the Kharaa rely heavily on melee attacks, so it would make sense for the marines to lack melee attacks altogether or to be limited to very weak melee attacks. The NS1 knife was far from weak, and the "chance" of a marine killing a skulk in a melee battle was far too high, given that such combat should have given the Kharaa a significant edge (as a reward for living long enough to get that close).

    Should there be a melee weapon in NS2? Perhaps. My suggestion would be to have the welder fill the role of the undroppable, infinite-ammo, melee weapon. Minimalism is certainly in its favor, as it is a familiar item and could serve multiple roles (special map interaction / structure repair / armor repair / melee weapon). Damage could be adjusted independently of the repair rate (as was done in NS1).

    There were multiple reasons to use knives against structures in NS1, and one of the primary reasons for experienced players was that it was the fastest way for a lone marine to kill a single structure at an early point in the game. It also had tactical significance, and it conserved ammo. If multiple marines were together or if weapon upgrades were in play or if a player had a shotgun or if multiple structures were involved (especially a DC), then the knife ceased to be the most effective solution. However, experienced players might still choose the knife as a sub-optimal solution (in terms of efficiency) in order to offset the risk of being caught in the middle of a reload when shooting down a structure. In short, it was situational. Welders were once the weapon of choice for destroying structures, as their damage was originally much higher than it should have been. In short, players will do what is most effective. If the NS2 marine melee weapon isn't effective at killing structures, then they won't use it for that purpose. If you want structure killing to be less monotonous, then structures would have to be weaker. As a result, structures would also need to be easier and cheaper to build; less critical to lose; and more of them would need to be allowed in an area. You can't have it both ways. If structures are going to be hard to kill, then killing them will take time, and that will create monotony. However, the marine melee weapon is not relevant to the issue, since the Kharaa will still encounter the same exact monotony when they go to bite down marine structures. Neither side should face such monotony, so the larger issue is gameplay related to structures on the whole.

    Not so. In the right hands, the pistol was effectively a sniper rifle, dealing up to 200 damage (at w0) very quickly and with pinpoint accuracy at any range. Many a fade died to a barrage of pistol fire during an attempted escape down a long, straight hallway. When covering a position at the end of a long hall, some players actually preferred to use pistols, switching to "primary" weapons only if the enemy could live long enough to close in. With weapon upgrades and good aim, two skulks would fall to a single pistol clip. Pistols really proved their worth once welders and mines were moved to other slots, allowing the marines to carry a pistol at all times.

    * Make the welder the melee weapon. (solves #1, #4)
    * Make the pistol act like a normal pistol. (solves #2, #4)
    * Change the gameplay related to structures, if possible. (solves #3 - a separate problem from the others)

    Whatever you do, don't have a melee weapon that continuously fires or that has a high rate of fire or that is any other way more effective at killing than the weakest Kharaa melee weapon. Otherwise, you're taking away one of the advantages that the Kharaa should have, and you're taking the marines out of character. And, don't muddle in problem #3 with the others, as they are basically unrelated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is an excellent post. I think everything I want to say has already been said, but I want to add my vote to the pile in favor of keeping the pistol. The different weapons fulfill different roles, and the pistol is the only marine weapon that offers any kind of precision. It doesn't have the payload to really usurp the heavy weapons. It also feels very natural as a go-to backup weapon, and the idea of a taser feels out of place and generally underwhelming. If a marine can carry enough juice in a battery that small to actually fry an onos or a hive, you'd think they'd have found more spectacular uses for it.

    Sorry, my thoughts are a little disjointed. Overall, I am very skeptical of the taser proposal, and I will personally be very disappointed if the marines don't get a pistol. It just doesn't seem natural not to.
  • Wyattx3Wyattx3 Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members
    edited August 2009
    Taser almost seems better than the knife/pistol aside from the people that still want to snipe....

    You get a melee attack ( You basically still get the knife so... don't understand why people are complaining ).

    And you can shoot prods into something and pump electricity into it.


    Your short on ammo fighting a skulk, you switch to your taser shoot the prods in him and jump to the side, all the while pumping electricity into him. ( So aside from the loss of pistol sniping, which I personally think is a good thing, it could be potentially better.)

    The name Taser itself has a stigma to it, and I'm sure the devs realize this. But if you actually read the descriptions and ideas they posted.... this weapon is really awesome and it almost entirely fulfills the roles the knife/pistol played in NS1.

    I still think the Taser is one of the best ideas that NS2 would benefit from... most games are very unoriginal when it comes to sidearms and it will be a breath of fresh air to see something new... and I personally have complete faith in the UWE guys.

    Edit: And if it DOES turn out to be the stupidest thing ever... how hard is it to implement 2 of the most basic weapons ever created in a video game?
  • Vi3triceVi3trice Join Date: 2009-06-03 Member: 67663Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1721300:date=Aug 7 2009, 12:38 PM:name=Wyattx3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wyattx3 @ Aug 7 2009, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721300"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if it DOES turn out to be the stupidest thing ever... how hard is it to implement 2 of the most basic weapons ever created in a video game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Laziness I guess. Everything got to be there from the get-go, no time to foolin' around right that, eh? Anyway, more fun to those who wants to create content (Yay) if it turns out bad.
  • AnataseAnatase Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68386Members
    i need my good ol' pistol . I've been playing NS for roughly 4 years now and i just can't live without my pistol , i actually achieved quite a good skill with it . It saved me so many time and even when my lmg was full i used it in long corridors ( as some on Eclipse ) , just needed w1 and the work was done , the skulk was dead.
    I understand the Taser idea but you just can't remove the pistol . It has a really nice and powerful feeling , when you hit something you know you hit it . You know your pistol is damn powerful when you pull the trigger .

    I'm in love with the pistol since the very beginning . Don't remove it :( .
    But you can remove the knife i'm ok with that :)
  • ClaviClavi Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68389Members
    edited August 2009
    Against alien buildings ( except the hive and DC ) it could be used some Biological wepon, like a virus grenade/mine (researcheble upgrade) that will reduce armor to units and "poison" buildings. This would solve the problem of "monotony" on destroing alien buildings. This can add more weight to the DC as beeing able to give imunity/resistence to the buildings near it.

    The alien counter will be an acid bite/building atak that disolves some buildings and reduces armor. Electrificating buildings will clear the acid on that building and arownd them. As for the HA afected they would have to use the LAB to clear the acid. Having an upgrade that makes the rines armor some kind of plaststeel ( maybe the lvl 3 armor ) would asure a minimum x% of armor that wont be disolved ( being made of plastic or ceramics ...).

    There will be needed a cost and research time balance for the 2 teams.

    The backgrownd story might be that the humans are capable of some organic research also not just steel and guns and there are some universal poisons that work even on highly adaptable alien life forms, tho not as they were expected to.

    Thx for reading :)
  • SteelSoldierSteelSoldier Join Date: 2008-08-06 Member: 64764Members
    I didn´t like the knife, I thought it didn´t bend too well to the game itself, whoever I will miss the pistol as it is usually a standard gun for any soldier.
  • Sumo-SoldierSumo-Soldier Join Date: 2009-07-24 Member: 68249Members
    i say we stop making assumptions about the taser till the alpha or beta is released.
  • Butcher66Butcher66 Join Date: 2009-08-19 Member: 68532Members
    I think we should keep Both tazer and knife... Both are the same weapon. You have your normal Knife, which with [weapons lvl1] upgrade becomes a tazer too, so you have knife as primary fire, and tazer as your secondary, catch is that you destroy your knife in the process of tazing. HOWS THAT!
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
    Er, I know this is silly, but would anyone feel any better if we just didn't call it a Taser? Here are a few name suggestions:

    - Tesla Pistol
    - Fire N Fry
    - Arc Pistol
    - Lightning Pistol

    Other interesting thoughts on it now that I start imagining the ways electricity might be used, would this kinda be like the welder? I mean, we had fun welding the Kharaa on the rare occasion too, right? So, could a Electricity Pistol be used to power marine buildings for a short while or turn on a room's lights? A source of energy generation and/or storage that can do damage to a biological life form would probably be pretty useful in other ways to a TSA marine too, right?
  • iPandaiPanda Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68417Members
    With the pistol ideas and designs floating about has the Taser been dropped? If so I'm quiet "Shocked"
  • DawormDaworm Join Date: 2009-06-22 Member: 67900Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1723733:date=Aug 20 2009, 09:23 AM:name=iPanda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iPanda @ Aug 20 2009, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1723733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If so I'm quiet "Shocked"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I see what you did thar!

    But agreed, I would have loved to see the Taser idea in-game, maybe not as far as a fully working 3d model just a place-holder. But at least a working gameplay mechanics at least.
  • iPandaiPanda Join Date: 2009-08-10 Member: 68417Members
    Maybe the taser will be implimented as an Upgrade purchaseable like The other style weapons are going to be.
  • TyrainTyrain Join Date: 2003-01-03 Member: 11746Members
    I'm at work so I don't have the time to read all, sorry bout that.

    I like the teaser idea. It shouldn't stun though. You could however make it possible to upgrade the taser to be able to stun. As kind of a crowd control.

    Most guys will be using the lmg,hmg etc. and one or two try to zap aliens to make them move slower.

    Sounds like a great tactical choice.
  • LanhavocLanhavoc Join Date: 2008-08-27 Member: 64909Members, Constellation
    edited August 2009
    I love it!

    Alternatively, you could combine even MORE into the weapon. Call it the multi-tool, or something way more creative. For instance it could be a stunner, pistol, and arc-welder all built into one. Fix it, break it, or kill it. Nice ideas guys, keep up the good work, and love that you're listening to the community still after all these years...
  • Lt_GravityLt_Gravity Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15909Members
    I do like the concept but I don´t like the idea of combining the pistol and the knife. Both weapons made perfectly sense. The pistol was in fact a very strong weapon but only for a short time limited by the low amount of ammo. What else do you have in hand for high leveled annoying skulks? ;) Using the knife was always fun and the success of using it was highly depending on your level of experience. Besides that I always thought about "knifing" structures to be less annoying than shooting them for hours.
    I also liked the archaic impression of the knife. If you stand with the back to the wall it´s your only friend that´s left :)
  • JAmazonJAmazon Join Date: 2009-02-21 Member: 66503Members
    ^^ Gotta agree with that, the knife adds this kind of "once my ammo is gone I'm no better than one of them" kind of primal nature to the marine side. Its almost an overlap point for the two sides, I'd argue that it should stay even if its useless/outdated just for stylistic reasons.
  • Mut-hoeMut-hoe Join Date: 2009-07-21 Member: 68204Members
    Give them a lightning baton.
  • cookmancookman Join Date: 2003-12-22 Member: 24654Members
    Personally, I don't like the idea. For two reasons mainly:

    1) I don't find it very marine-like to be tasing enemies during mortal combat. Maybe it's because tasers are designed to be non-lethal and I therefore associate them with women fending off rapists.

    2) I don't think battery powered handheld tasers would pack enough power to incapacitate xenomorphic bladed killing machines whose whole biology is build up around the purpose of ending lives. I guess it would be much like trying to tase a rabid grizzly bear before getting mauled.

    Sure, it could work perfectly gameplay-wise, but I doubt it would ever get the right feel, which I do realize is a matter of personal taste. I guess I just like firearms better in a combat situation where the enemy really, really wants you very, very dead.

    Though, a powered fist for the Heavy Armor would be pretty bad-ass.
  • NeoSniperNeoSniper Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
    :( At the "Taser" being dropped

    It's seems as the biggest issue was (stupidly enough) just the name.

    I'm going to go ahead can call this a fail on part of all the ***** *****s who automatically assumed that the weapon was not meant to be lethal based on the name when it was made clear in the description that indeed it was lethal. Learn to read a digest.

    NS1 had electrified buildings so what was so weird about NS2 getting a more limited handheld version of that?

    It think the Taser was a really innovative idea with a lot of "potential good" shot down by fear of "potential bad". Therefore lack of trust in UWE. Hopefully if the game sells well enough we'll get the Taser in some future update. "Meet the Taser" Anyone? ;)


    ...Well I feel a bit better now.


    -Spark pistol (Ol' Sparky saved me more than once in a tight situation)
    -Shock pistol (Hah! I gave the Shocker to the Onos and he was none too happy about it)
    -Arc Pistol (is also pretty good for one of the posters above)
  • BruteBrute Join Date: 2009-06-10 Member: 67778Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <a href="" target="_blank">wireless long range taser</a>
    <img src="" border="0" class="linked-image" />

  • trSonictrSonic Join Date: 2005-04-15 Member: 48464Members, Constellation
    i don't like the taser idea - but its great that you want to stop the pistol-scripting, which actually (NS1) really SUCKS!
  • trSonictrSonic Join Date: 2005-04-15 Member: 48464Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1725211:date=Aug 27 2009, 10:30 AM:name=cookman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cookman @ Aug 27 2009, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though, a powered fist for the Heavy Armor would be pretty bad-ass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    great idea!!!
  • FallenWulfFallenWulf Join Date: 2009-07-05 Member: 68039Members
    edited August 2009
    Now that it has been dropped, I am happy. I agree 100% with the thought of it being associated with women defending themselves against an attacker. It just doesn't have the tactical feel to it, I know I sure as **** would have left it in some pouch on my Flak that was nearly inaccessible, or in my pack. Maybe if the concept design that we had seen made it look more aggressive or even more tactical.

    Still A knife just has the right feel to it, and has and will always be associated with your last ditch effort to survive.

    If they wanted to go way out onto a limb why not just make some sort of energy based pistol, super-accurate low damage beam pistol, or how about something based along the lines of District 9's lightning weapons, just not as effective.

    Regardless of what they do the knife is an essential, change it make it cooler, better, whatever. THEY HAVE TO PUT A KNIFE. It's a Marines last line of defense. hence why we are still issued bayonettes even in today's modern warfare, and we have still received very, very, very, few confirmed knife kills.

    P.S. Just a ridiculus idea I got from looking at my sig. Why not a chainsword :P that's bad**. OR a Power Sword?
  • XeZoXeZo Join Date: 2006-11-14 Member: 58597Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1725395:date=Aug 28 2009, 06:53 PM:name=FallenWulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FallenWulf @ Aug 28 2009, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...or how about something based along the lines of District 9's lightning weapons, just not as effective...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ... Are you saying that the lightning weapon in that movie is powerful?? :P

    Which part of it is powerful? Is it the fact that it kind of finds the target itself, or the fact that it turns whoever it hits into red goo?

    (I would love something like that though <3)
  • FlatkinGFlatkinG Join Date: 2005-03-02 Member: 42984Members
    i like the idea of a less normal tool than other games, it furthur puts this game on its own pedestal which is a good thing! im a big fan of teamwork, and i like the idea to think that "like another person said" can team mates zap aliens/structures using your darts, so if your squad comes up to a room filled with chambers one person can take point and try deliver the dart, and the teammates from a safe distance can finish off the task, encouraging teamwork.


    it sounds like it would b a hard thing to do, hit a high speed alien with 1 shot 1 hit dart, heres a few suggestions for promoting its use..

    perhaps 1. giving this more reward like while its active the alien is unable to use its other weapon slots/abilities other than melee(so charge/leap etc are temporarily disabled
    2. halting the aliens regeneration of health, energy and/or movement speed while darts are active making aliens such as Onos take less timely risks against a large number of marines(furthur promoting teamwork for marines)
    or 3. perhaps while a dart is active and an alien chooses to ignore the darts impact, if he tries to use an ability that expends energy, it has feedback damage equal to the % of energy that's used so its a choice between trying to finish off a loner marine with expendable damage or fleeing till the darts fall out.(the more options and room for imagination play the better)

    im sure some people will or wont be like minded but im just putting it out there as what i personally think and wouldn't mind in-game.
  • EpiclandingEpiclanding Join Date: 2009-09-30 Member: 68913Members
    Maybe just make the taser a weapon that you can purchase that replaces the pistol or knife?
  • BruteBrute Join Date: 2009-06-10 Member: 67778Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited April 2010
    sorry, wrong thread
  • dieareadydieaready Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33071Members
    how about making the tazer do no or low damage, but rather slows the aliens and/or does ministuns (where a visual effect of their avatar will twitch, with sparks flying around them) of say half a second, so as to interrupt their attack/movement (onos stops charging, lerk drops out of the air, skulk continues in mid leap but doesn't do damage as it tumbles). also make it a separate weapon rather than it replacing the pistol/knife, like the welder. this way, the tazer will have a more tactical use where one marine would slow down an alien while the others shoot holes in it, but not overpowered, as it will reduce the amount of people shooting by one. however, only one alien can be tazed by one marine at a time, so there wouldn't be a case of a single onos being perma stunned or slowed to a crawl. also, a marine can only taze one alien at a time so there won't be the case of a single marine slowing down a whole horde of aliens.

    also, give the tazer ammunition, like bullets, but it does not need reloading, aka nanites reform the darts in the gun, and the darts fall off the alien after say 5 to 10 sec, when the alien goes out of line of sight, the marine doing the tazing switches weapons or when something comes in between the maine and the alien.

    PS: yes i know how old this is, only realized the date after typing all this out, but since i've typed it out...
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