Development Blog Update - Unknown Worlds Podcast #26

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  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members Posts: 3,365
    QUOTE(Prefix @ Jul 11 2008, 02:30 PM) »
    Holy Awesome.

    Release it to the linux market too!

    (Edit: Please.)


    Native Mac and Linux builds would be quite awesome. Gonna be hard if they use DirectX, though. OpenGL continues to improve, but it's core has some weird crap still in there.
    helping bring perspective and learning since the olde days

    QUOTE
    <jenny> What's the plural of 'Onos'?
    <Mexican> For a while, I thought it was 'Oh ######'!


    Vote on your Ideas/Suggestions!
    http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=125347
  • La ChupacabraLa Chupacabra Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63729Members Posts: 194 Auto Verified
    QUOTE(obsid @ Jul 11 2008, 06:34 AM) »
    Hum…..
    I don’t know, I’m not quite as excited about this news as other people seem to be. Having written a good portion of a graphics engine myself I know that there is soooo much that goes into it, that has almost nothing to do with the gameplay you want. Just starting with (skipping what you said you already got) full hardware rendering using sharders to do water and other effects, skybox’s with proper parallax, inverse kine, full surround sound audio, HDR, multiple core rendering, foliage(leaves and trees), soft particles (ie flamethrower), each of these are very very tough to get exactly “right” and vastly help the game look/feel (especially on older hardware it has to be very optimized).

    is NS2 there will be no water (at least at the beginning) and since it's mostly si-fi indoor than it won't gonna need too much trees and leaves (so they can be actually modeled and animated, as it was done in NS1)... the lack of AI worries me a bit since they wanted to add 'clever bots', but offline mode is not the priority I suppose

    QUOTE(sherpa @ Jul 11 2008, 09:18 AM) »
    I don't like listenening to podcasts so maybe this has been answered but- can resources that you've already made be ported straight across to the new engine?

    And my usual pessimist final comment- disappointing that it's summer 2008 and we're only now finding out what engine you're working on.

    from what I understood they are developing the engine for 5 months now, but they are letting us know now when they know things are going well with it (?)
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation Posts: 4,022 Auto Verified
    QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Jul 11 2008, 10:48 AM) »
    In NS2 there will be no water (at least at the beginning) and since it's mostly sci-fi indoor than it won't gonna need too much trees and leaves (so they can be actually modeled and animated, as it was done in NS1)

    Yeah, I think they'll be able to tune the engine much more easily. Better water effects and the like can come with updates/expansions.

    Also, The Galapagos Engine.

    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • PrefixPrefix Éirinn go Brách Join Date: 2006-12-31 Member: 59353Members, Constellation Posts: 455 Auto Verified
    I second the Darwin Engine.
  • ZothenZothen Join Date: 2008-07-11 Member: 64603Members Posts: 2
    edited July 2008
    Oh crap, I hoped to play NS2 in this century! An engine change is the worst thing that could happen. Especially when they say: Now everything will be faster! Of course! Guess Ive coded too much to believe that it can be faster when you have to build a 3d-Engine, the game (not to forget models, rigging and texturing) and the tools!
    I cant believe that they have the ressources to build a decent 3D-engine thats better than Source... I cant...
    Bye-bye, NS2 - see you in many, many years! Im a sad, sad panda, now! sad-fix.gif
  • ChromeAngelChromeAngel Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 14Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor Posts: 2,677
    edited July 2008
    QUOTE(Crispy @ Jul 11 2008, 11:47 AM) »
    In short I'd like to hear more on the features the new engine and map editor will support, and how the hell Max thinks he's going to achieve all of this single-handed without burning himself out and into an early grave.

    It sounds a lot like the engine will have whatever features UWE find they want (so long as Max can code it in a week)

    We could be brainstorming up features that source doesn't have that would make NS2 even more awesome.

    Is the new engine still coded in C++?

    Another question occurs to me is the financial impact, UWEs investors cant be very impressed that you've blown a stack of cash on licensing an engine only not to use it.
    image - Marines VS Aliens - Public Beta Download
  • N_3N_3 &#092;o/ Join Date: 2004-03-12 Member: 27291Members, Constellation Posts: 487
    edited July 2008
    woah, new engine. should definitely be called the BUS engine.

    (edit: or BUE - big unannounced engine)
    image iNi | N3 image NSGuides image NSP
    image
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation Posts: 4,022 Auto Verified
    edited July 2008
    Edit: List of names suggested:
    • Beagle
    • Blink
    • Broken (lol)
    • BUS/BUE - Big Unannounced/Unknown System/Engine
    • Carnot
    • Catalyst
    • Colbert
    • Constellation
    • Darwin
    • Eclipse
    • Evolution/Evo
    • Extraterrestrial
    • Fade
    • Finch
    • Frontier
    • Galapagos
    • Gorge
    • Hive
    • Hovvar
    • Leap
    • MaxFlay
    • Maximize
    • Maxor
    • NanoTec
    • Natural
    • Nexus
    • Nostromo
    • NS2
    • Onos/Ownos
    • Open
    • Origin
    • Scorpion
    • Selective
    • Ultimate Switch
    • Unknown
    • Unknown World Creator
    Edit2: Now in alphabetical order!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • Trace BulletTrace Bullet Join Date: 2008-07-11 Member: 64605Members Posts: 1
    This is good news! It sounded like too much time was burned trying to bend the Source engine to their will. So, how soon until we see this new engine in action?

    Also, I nominate "Natural Engine" as the engine's name.
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer Posts: 1,729 admin
    Thanks to everyone for the encouragement.

    I know some people are wondering how we could possibly build an engine in only a few months. The truth is that we didn't; I've actually been working on the engine in some form since 2005. Originally the engine was just a way for me to try out different ideas (mostly related to 3D graphics) quickly and easily. And if you've been following the blog you've seen it a few times in different forms, including the dynamic infestation prototype video and the map viewer. So we didn't really decide to write a new engine, it's more like we decided we already had an engine, we just needed to add in a few more pieces. Adding in those pieces is what we really started doing 5 months ago.

    So what are those pieces? The big one was networking which we talked about in the podcast a bit. We also added in collision support for character movement, character animation and physics / ragdolls and a sound system. All of the scripting glue code we wrote for Source just came right over. And since all of gameplay code is written in Lua script it was already very independent of the Source engine and we were able to directly use that with our new engine.

    Right now we have every major piece in place in the engine, which is really great for development since it means everyone on the team can be productive without waiting on anything. Those pieces aren't all 100% yet, but I'm going to be continuing to work on that while the rest of the team progresses with the game.

    We've been closed kimono about the engine for a while because things were still quite up in the air, but now that we're through that we hope to be talking about it quite a bit more on this blog.
    Max McGuire
    Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • ZenoZeno Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62183Members Posts: 316
    edited July 2008
    [I've got to stop lurking around ...]

    Many things that were on my mind have already been said here so i have just a few comments/questions.


    i wonder how uw/max will manage it to make an own engine with so little personell; there are so many things to do, like graphics, shaders, netcode, etc. uw may need some additional coders now.
    still like most of the previous posters i support your choice.
    -will the new engine benefit from multicore processors? i mean the scaling.... e.g. having an extra thread for physics........(sorry, i can't express my self right here, since my english isn't quite good..... but take crysis for example: it doesn't really matter how many cores you have, so it will possibly run better on a fast dualcore than on a average quadcore cpu). I know, i can't expect you to have an answer to this question at this early point but MAYBE you have one? wink-fix.gif
    -What does Valve think about all this? You had insight into their engine and are now building an own that will have similarities to the source engine as said in the podcast. i hope valve's lawyers won't find a copyright-problem or something like this in it.
    -will "Pretexa" support the source engine, too or is it just for your new engine?
    -what about the investors? will they support your chioce


    as for the engine name:
    Evo engine would be nice but it's a stupid idea because there is already one (mitsubishi evo's engine wink-fix.gif )
    Evolution is nice
    my fav and own suggestions:
    +The Scorpian engine
    +Maxor engine
    +Ownos engine wink-fix.gif
    +Eclipse engine


    ps: now that there are no engine based limits i'm looking forward to reading through the suggestions forum biggrin-fix.gif

    oh and one more thing: If you make a linux version, feel free to raise the price to 50€ wink-fix.gif (although i would pay that for a windows only version, too)

    edit: since don't post here often i hadn't the opportunity to say that yet: THANK YOU for all your previous work and thank you for NS1. It's one of the best games i've ever played
  • KarbaKarba Join Date: 2006-09-23 Member: 58040Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 175
    edited July 2008
    QUOTE(Zeno @ Jul 11 2008, 05:14 PM) »
    [I've got to stop lurking around ...]

    Many things that were on my mind have already been said here so i have just a few comments/questions.
    i wonder how uw/max will manage it to make an own engine with so little personell; there are so many things to do, like graphics, shaders, netcode, etc. uw may need some additional coders now.
    still like most of the previous posters i support your choice.
    -will the new engine benefit from multicore processors? i mean the scaling.... e.g. having an extra thread for physics........(sorry, i can't express my self right here, since my english isn't quite good..... but take crysis for example: it doesn't really matter how many cores you have, so it will possibly run better on a fast dualcore than on a average quadcore cpu). I know, i can't expect you to have an answer to this question at this early point but MAYBE you have one? wink-fix.gif
    -What does Valve think about all this? You had insight into their engine and are now building an own that will have similarities to the source engine as said in the podcast. i hope valve's lawyers won't find a copyright-problem or something like this in it.
    -will "Pretexa" support the source engine, too or is it just for your new engine?
    -what about the investors? will they support your chioce
    as for the engine name:
    Evo engine would be nice but it's a stupid idea because there is already one (mitsubishi evo's engine wink-fix.gif )
    Evolution is nice
    my fav and own suggestions:
    +The Scorpian engine
    +Maxor engine
    +Ownos engine wink-fix.gif
    +Eclipse engine
    ps: now that there are no engine based limits i'm looking forward to reading through the suggestions forum biggrin-fix.gif

    oh and one more thing: If you make a linux version, feel free to raise the price to 50€ wink-fix.gif (although i would pay that for a windows only version, too)

    edit: since don't post here often i hadn't the opportunity to say that yet: THANK YOU for all your previous work and thank you for NS1. It's one of the best games i've ever played


    I think Networking, collision and character animation have been imported directly from Source Engine, the license they bought allow to do this.

    I would pay up to 100 € if the game is released this year althought we all known this is not gonna happen
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer Posts: 1,729 admin
    QUOTE(Karba @ Jul 11 2008, 10:30 AM) »
    I think Networking, collision and character animation have been imported directly from Source Engine, the license they bought allow to do this.

    Our engine doesn't include any code from the Source engine.
    Max McGuire
    Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • Paul-HewsonPaul-Hewson Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63737Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 129 Auto Verified
    What about the physic engine. You have spoken of nVidia's PhysX Middleware.
    It is the part which require a PPU/ nVidia GeForce "CUDA" (GeForce 8/9/GTX) ? Or not ?

    I think it's not but i prefer to be sure.
  • PrefixPrefix Éirinn go Brách Join Date: 2006-12-31 Member: 59353Members, Constellation Posts: 455 Auto Verified
    Max, is there any chance of Linux or mac versions?

    Or should I stop dreaming?
  • AndosAndos Join Date: 2003-10-17 Member: 21742Members Posts: 265
    The "Hovvar" engine! Because it runs smoothly without flapping!


    Anyways, good to see you guys are confident enough in your own engine to use it. I loved the look of the creep in the video and was hoping that you wouldn't have big troubles porting it to source. Now you already have a working implementation in your own engine so I guess that is ready smile-fix.gif
  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Members, Constellation Posts: 820 Auto Verified
    edited July 2008
    Well that must feel good to get off your chests! Max or Charlie, am I reading it correctly that there is no source engine code in there? If so, does that mean this is entirely UW's engine to do with what it pleases? If thats still to be sorted out, thats cool...

    Concerning the engine itself, I am GLAD to hear that because you are eliminating legacy crap it will be a speed demon. Good, efficiency and knowing what is going on is a wonderful thing smile-fix.gif So, more specifically, what did you guys decide upon?

    We know that you are presently using physX (good strategic decision) for ragdolls. Will there be any other uses of this (eg: for visual effect, I'm sure you guys aren't concerned with gameplay effecting destroyable walls or other bits of fancy), or has that yet to be determined?

    About the graphics part, is this going to be usable with directX or opengl, or both? If one or the other has been decided, can you provide reason as to why? If not, just specify anyway... thanks.

    Concerning network code, will there be adequate checking to ensure cheating is not probable? Also, can you say which direction was selected for updates and player control? Eg... are you syncing with the server thus causing motion stutter should lag arise, or will you keep with the same feel of half life and leave local player control real-time and unimpeded by update? I found the beauty of halflife games in multiplayer is that you always feel as though you are in control of yourself, not at the mercy of lag which causes you to go backwards or something. Please let us know!

    Lastly, because you have freed yourself from source engine restrictions, will you be adding or changing the capabilities of what models or people or whatever can do? Or will you guys play it safe and essentially emulate through your own methods the model and map capabilities?

    Thank you for letting us know, and hopefully you guys can be a bit more transparent and current with updates! Oh, and engine names.. lets see how they look and sound:

    Unknown Worlds NATBUS Engine
    Unknown Worlds Hovaring Skorpion Engine
    Unknown Worlds ONOS Engine
    Unknown Worlds OHNOEZ Engine
    Unknown Worlds Lork On The Clorf Engine
    Unknown Worlds LOTC Engine
    Unknown Worlds Shirtgun Engine
    Unknown Worlds SG Engine
    Unknown Worlds Cornmandor Engine
    Unknown Worlds BUS Engine
    Unknown Worlds NOTDUKENUKEMFOREVER Engine
    Unknown Worlds Charlie And The Turret Factory Engine

    Or, how about Unknown Worlds No Name Engine... in homage to no name and an unnamed engine is original!
  • DooGieDooGie Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34531Members, Constellation Posts: 70
    Yeah, now we can blame UWE when the bullets don't reg ;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D
  • MarshalTTMarshalTT Join Date: 2005-01-08 Member: 33799Members Posts: 81
    This will be the next engine of DNF smile-fix.gif

    resource engine smile-fix.gif
  • DrownDrown Underwater Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10392Members Posts: 381
    edited July 2008
    Even if it takes you longer to finish the game it will be better since it sounds like you are enjoying working with the new engine more.

    As for a new name? Maybe something that combines constellation with natural selection. Although honestly, I'd suggest taking it from something you guys see near the office everyday, something you appreciate but don't think about such as a street name, or a locally run restaurant you all enjoy.

    Fast Eddies Doughnuts might not be a great engine name, but I'm sure you'll find something.

    Anyhow, great work guys, I'm anxious to get my hands on the new editor, and to see the engine in action.
    image
    "There is hope, but not for us" (Kafka).
    "Don't be afraid of perfection. You will never attain it" (Salvador Dali).
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,090 Auto Verified
    edited July 2008
    .
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members Posts: 10,501
    QUOTE(moultano @ Jul 11 2008, 02:54 PM) »
    Be sure to write in client-side prediction and lag compensation.

    Make sure to add sound, too. And don't forget dedicated servers. And weapons, and mouse support. Don't leave out the mouse support.
    QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 21 2012, 11:06 AM) »
    What is wrong with being a racist?

  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Members, Constellation Posts: 820 Auto Verified
    edited July 2008
    QUOTE(moultano @ Jul 11 2008, 02:54 PM) »
    Best of luck. Write unit tests!!!! smile-fix.gif

    Be sure to write in client-side prediction and lag compensation.

    Also, give some thought to multithreading early on in the development. You won't be able to hack that in.

    Don't unit test, beta test (consties!)! Multithreading early on is a great great great idea. Free performance for the future, cutting edge, good for marketing, good for performance. Do it.

    About sound- What do you guys plan to do? Straight up no effects just volume attenuation or will you do something cutting edge like do real-time convolutions for distance? Distance/reverb convolutions would be awesome- you could have a high quality/low quality version that just uses different bit depths and durations and it would sound fantastic and NO EAX/Creative bull.
  • PogoPPogoP Environment Artist Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25827Members, NS2 Developer, Constellation Posts: 455
    I say don't test at all, just hope for the best.
  • DeadmanDieingDeadmanDieing Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26811Members, Constellation Posts: 47
    Name for engine: New world engine


    Good luck on it. I just hope I can run it smoothly, so far any game that uses phyx cripples my computer in frames.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members Posts: 3,365
    QUOTE(DeadmanDieing @ Jul 11 2008, 09:19 PM) »
    Good luck on it. I just hope I can run it smoothly, so far any game that uses phyx cripples my computer in frames.


    Aw, but true gamers get such hard ons for games that cripple their systems. *cough*Crysis*cough*

    /sarcasm
    helping bring perspective and learning since the olde days

    QUOTE
    <jenny> What's the plural of 'Onos'?
    <Mexican> For a while, I thought it was 'Oh ######'!


    Vote on your Ideas/Suggestions!
    http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....howtopic=125347
  • JazzXJazzX cl_labelmaps ∞ Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9285Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester Posts: 1,835
    edited July 2008
    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 11 2008, 04:00 PM) »
    Don't leave out the mouse support.
    Light pen and NES Power Glove only. No mouse, no keyboard. It'll revolutionize the industry, I promise*.

    And unless a name is chosen soon I think its going quickly be called the "Unknown Engine" by lots of people by default. Which is slightly less confusing then calling your Engine "Source" but probably not as helpful as having a more unique name. (Personally I'm gunning for "Charlie And The Turret Factory".)

    (*not a promise)
    Jim "|DL|JazzX" Olson
    Former NS1 Dev: QA Manager, Minimap Colorer, Playtester wrangler, Keeper of the Excel sheets.
    I R Famous (Thanks aeroripper!)
  • FraxinusFraxinus Join Date: 2008-03-02 Member: 63783Members, Constellation Posts: 177
    Please allow for the creation of GOOD outside maps smile-fix.gif
    -Frax*
  • IronFistIronFist Join Date: 2006-12-01 Member: 58805Members Posts: 86
    edited July 2008
    Given that NS2 will be relatively unique, I don't think it will require bleeding-edge visuals to be a success. I play NS for the unique gameplay, not pretty graphics (although I understand they are important to a degree). Like others have mentioned, people will be constricted to indoor, waterless environments, which will hopefully shortcut required optimization greatly. I'm quite happy that the development of the game is no longer based on "can Source do it, or can we implement it within Source's constrains?", but rather, "okay, let's add it to our engine, which we know every facet of."

    I was about to start ranting about the obvious skill on display here, but I'll cut that short. The engine with networking and physics support? A completely custom map editor? This short a time? Only two programmers? I believe it speaks extremely well for your experience, even if some of it is drawn from past projects.

    I liked the "Darwin" name suggestion for the engine. I have an unusual affection for the Natural Selection name, and Darwin seems to be quite fitting.

    edit: Picking engine names is just too fun. Someone below mentioned "Maximus." I think that's an excellent professionalized version of Max0r smile-fix.gif
    If it's to be greek, it may as well be Omicron ("our engine is quite literally the upper bound!")
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    image
  • MojokdirectorMojokdirector Join Date: 2008-02-21 Member: 63705Members Posts: 69
    edited July 2008
    WOOOOOH!

    alright I'm calm.

    So I'm thinking the "Genotype Engine" because it's specifically formed to make Natural Selection 2 the living individual it will be.
    biggrin-fix.gif
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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