Will NS2 be out before source engine is over-the-hill?

eliotmateliotmat Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10350Members, Reinforced - Shadow
The original NS ran on an aging HL1 engine. It seems NS2 is on schedule to run on source as it starts to show its age.

I had trouble getting friends to play NS1 because they thought it looked like crap. Is NS2 going to run into the same problem? I'm not sure how "future proof" the source engine is, but it's starting to get old.

What do you guys think about this?
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Comments

  • sherpasherpa stopcommandermode Join Date: 2006-11-04 Member: 58338Members
    Source is modular so you can add stuff all the time, but to me that's just fancy talking. To my untrained eye Ep2 looked no better than HL2; talk about aliased dynamic nuclear powered extra fluffy clouds all you want, you'd struggle to keep updating any engine to ensure it stays modern.

    But Steam is so popular that UWE can afford to work as slowly as they do- I'd have guessed any release in the next 2-3 years will work if the game is good.

    Pessismist hat but based on past progress I can't see how NS2 will be released in 2 years. Granted we wouldn't expect website hacks and moving cross country to get in the way again, but they've had no issues in the past half year and all we've seen is concept art.
  • MuzzzyMuzzzy Join Date: 2005-07-20 Member: 56360Members
    edited June 2008
    The source engine is very flexible and easy to use. I think that if the Source engine becomes outdated, Valve will just put out a new version.
    <!--QuoteBegin-sherpa+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pessismist hat but based on past progress I can't see how NS2 will be released in 2 years. Granted we wouldn't expect website hacks and moving cross country to get in the way again, but they've had no issues in the past half year and all we've seen is concept art.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Agreed.
  • La ChupacabraLa Chupacabra Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63729Members
    well, true, but I wouldn't say that they are constantly making NS2 for the past 6 months. During that time they were doing some essential, but down-to-earth things like looking for sponsors, setting up an office etc.

    anyway - all I want to see in NS2 is revised gameplay and the feel of NS1, not eye candy which I will eat fast, sh*t out and flush it the loo like all other games that are coming out recently - not like with NS which I digest from v1.04 (with breaks)
  • KarbaKarba Join Date: 2006-09-23 Member: 58040Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Gold
    Souce engine outdated ? You must be kidding <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" /> , actually it is one of the best game engines, capable of show incredible graphics with good framerate even with crappy sub 100 € videocards. The UT3 and COD4 engine maybe have a bit better visual effects, but the differences are minimal. Besides, valve and all the hl comunity is something that other engines don't have and it's as important as graphics.
    Crysis have the best engine to date, but problably you wouldn't want to play NS2 at 15 fps, am i right ? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
  • MapsterMapster Join Date: 2007-11-01 Member: 62796Members
    People play the original Duke Nukem 3D, one of the first 3D games released... thats about 16 years old. So it doesn't matter if the graphics aren't that great, the idea of a good game is to base it on the game play; not on looks. Thats where most games fail and loose all their money like Age of Empires 3, looks great but game play sucks.
  • eliotmateliotmat Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10350Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1680558:date=Jun 8 2008, 02:11 PM:name=Mapster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mapster @ Jun 8 2008, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People play the original Duke Nukem 3D, one of the first 3D games released... thats about 16 years old. So it doesn't matter if the graphics aren't that great, the idea of a good game is to base it on the game play; not on looks. Thats where most games fail and loose all their money like Age of Empires 3, looks great but game play sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Graphics matter if it's a new product that is going to cost money......
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    The Source engine has been upgraded a good deal since HL2 come out, and probably will continue to be at least until Ep3(and I imagine Valve will just keep building on it). NS2 probably won't be state-of-the-art in terms of visuals anyway, but I don't think it will look outdated by any means.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    Keep in mind, having 'state-of-the-arts' graphics or 'being on the cutting edge' can be double-edged sword. It may have it's advantages, but it certainly comes with it's fair share of disadvantages. Someone may say "ohh, look good graphics! That looks really impressive, I'll give it a try" while the person next to them says "ohh, look good graphics! Bet I can't run that..."

    Then you have gamers like me - I play games to have fun, yes, but I also love trying to dominate in those games. Often times graphics can be a hindrance to my play, so even though my computer is currently able to run almost anything out there on high, I usually run games on low / medium.

    Either way, one thing is clear, games with 'great graphics' usually make a great PR push then fade as quickly as they came. I believe the games that stick around need to be games that are good and accessible to the greatest number of people possible. Graphics can severally limit who has access to your game.

    So long as NS2 comes out in the next 2 to 5 years, it should have graphics satisfactory to the vast majority of players.
  • PseudoKnightPseudoKnight Join Date: 2002-06-18 Member: 791Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will NS2 be out before source engine is over-the-hill?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If you mean mature and can run on nearly everyone's computer, then yes. But the engine is flexible and has the potential for plenty of graphical improvements as shown by Ep1 and subsequently Ep2.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I had trouble getting friends to play NS1 because they thought it looked like crap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not the best of gaming friends. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> I find graphics aren't important to me at all so much as art... but beyond that gameplay is the deciding factor. If an old game just doesn't play well compared to modern games, then it's harder for me to enjoy it.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    gameplay makes the game - sure graphics help, but anyone remember play hexxagon or drug wars? the were barely any graphics, yet they were so addictive and fun. thats definitley some of the strenghts that ns1 had also.

    however hl2's graphics are good enough, and the art style of ns2 will make it aesthetic <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> hl2 is much more than a graphics upgrade. .lets not forget that there are still a few games which will be comming out on the hl2 engine - such as left4dead.
    and probably most importantly - it will run on just about every pc out there - unlike most new games.
  • Lt_HendricksonLt_Hendrickson Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members
    edited June 2008
    Even though the maximun capabilities of this game visually are less than other games, I still find on my computer that if I set my graphics high to the max before it lags, its looks better on the source engine because it's more efficiant. Take the example of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. for anyone who had the opportunity to play that amazing game. Hl2 looks better on my computer because I can set the graphics to max and in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. i have frame rate issues even on medium settings. S.T.A.l.K.E.R's engine actually some of the best graphics in my opinion ( not the best) but only super insane computers can run it. One of the biggest problems I found with the episodes of HL2 was that they spent way too much time showing off graphics and new engine abilities and not enough on gameplay. Atmosphere was good but the games were boring to me but that's mostly cause they couldn't get over the fact the made a physics engine and you can beat the game blindfolded lobbing things with the gravity gun.

    Except for that strider fight at the end of ep 2. That was sweat.
  • haymohaymo Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34040Members, NS1 Playtester
    Graphics are secondary to immersion and environmental engagement.
  • Raven_XIRaven_XI Join Date: 2003-01-08 Member: 12032Members, Constellation
    NS though was done so professionaly that the visuals shat all over those found in Half life. It was one of the few mods that felt like you were actually playing a different game, not one that felt like all that was different were the player/gun models. Im pretty sure it will withstand the graphical test, not that such a good game will need to in order to be a success.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1680593:date=Jun 8 2008, 10:31 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SentrySteve @ Jun 8 2008, 10:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep in mind, having 'state-of-the-arts' graphics or 'being on the cutting edge' can be double-edged sword. It may have it's advantages, but it certainly comes with it's fair share of disadvantages. Someone may say "ohh, look good graphics! That looks really impressive, I'll give it a try" while the person next to them says "ohh, look good graphics! Bet I can't run that..."

    ...

    So long as NS2 comes out in the next 2 to 5 years, it should have graphics satisfactory to the vast majority of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    agreed
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1680545:date=Jun 8 2008, 07:27 PM:name=eliotmat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eliotmat @ Jun 8 2008, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The original NS ran on an aging HL1 engine. It seems NS2 is on schedule to run on source as it starts to show its age.

    I had trouble getting friends to play NS1 because they thought it looked like crap. Is NS2 going to run into the same problem? I'm not sure how "future proof" the source engine is, but it's starting to get old.

    What do you guys think about this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think you should slap your friends a lot for basing their opinion on the polycount of a game.
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
    Am I the only gamer that has only really noticed a difference in the look of games if I play something like Unreal Tournament, but if I play Unreal Tournament 2003 all the way up to current games, they all look about the same to me ... Maybe I have been gaming too long, and I remember 8-bit and 16-bit graphics and midi sounds, but sheesh, isn't the next step in gaming graphics practically a f'n holodeck from Star Trek?

    I thought we left the importance of graphics behind us years ago, as far as I am concerned, they have pretty much plateaued and look better than the various CGI movies from past years.

    If someone actually thinks HL2 graphics are dated, they seriously need to consider stop playing incomplete custom maps with lazy mono-chrome art and notice that with just a little bit of effort, the engine performs like a friggin' beast when you give it art assets that measure up to some degree of fidelity, I would have thought HL2: Episode 2 played at even medium or minimal graphical settings would demonstrate that nicely.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1680665:date=Jun 9 2008, 12:07 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Jun 9 2008, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I the only gamer that has only really noticed a difference in the look of games if I play something like Unreal Tournament, but if I play Unreal Tournament 2003 all the way up to current games, they all look about the same to me ... Maybe I have been gaming too long, and I remember 8-bit and 16-bit graphics and midi sounds, but sheesh, isn't the next step in gaming graphics practically a f'n holodeck from Star Trek?

    I thought we left the importance of graphics behind us years ago, as far as I am concerned, they have pretty much plateaued and look better than the various CGI movies from past years.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I didn't for a while. When I go back to NS1 now I notice the pixely textures on the walls, but the player and weapon models still look fine.
  • invader Ziminvader Zim Join Date: 2007-09-20 Member: 62376Members
    i think using an "old" engine is more of a public image thing than a game changing issue.

    The source engine is more than adequate for ns2. Ns2 is going to be an indoor game round corridors and various rooms. Good graphics can easily be wasted on indoor environments since there isnt that much too see - e.g. doom3

    If ns2 were to be out door in a massive living environment i would understand the need for a glorious graphics engine but in its setting graphics isnt going to be a riding factor in the experience.

    If ns2 ships after say hl3 or a newer valve engine or after people commonly view source as out of date it will be a public image problem rather than a game play problem. Some people equate the latest engine to game quality and thus whether its worth buying and playing.
  • gamakungamakun Join Date: 2007-11-20 Member: 62971Members, Constellation
    I still think ns1 looks great being on a hl1 engine.
  • PseudoKnightPseudoKnight Join Date: 2002-06-18 Member: 791Members
    Also keep in mind this is a multiplayer game where excessive effects and poor performance gets in the way of good gameplay.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    true true, i think that even with ns1 the graphics and art were above vanilla hl1 standard. so i'd say the samething will apply to ns2.

    although at the same time, i'd say that if ns2 doesn't come out in 6-12 months, then it'll be too late.
  • PheusPheus Join Date: 2003-01-30 Member: 12924Members
    <a href="http://www.onlinegamingzeitgeist.com/games" target="_blank">http://www.onlinegamingzeitgeist.com/games</a>

    Considering that Counterstrike, a hl1 based engine(1998) game, is still the most played fps game in the world, followed by Counterstrike : source, a source engine game, and then battlefield 2 a distant no3, I don't think you have to worry so much about the source engine being over the hill any time soon. You have to worry more about the gameplay being good enough to get players away from those other games. Battlefield 1 haCall of duty has ~10% the player base of CS and UT3 has ~0.3%.
  • ElectricFleasElectricFleas Join Date: 2007-01-14 Member: 59601Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1680754:date=Jun 10 2008, 07:09 AM:name=Pheus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pheus @ Jun 10 2008, 07:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://www.onlinegamingzeitgeist.com/games" target="_blank">http://www.onlinegamingzeitgeist.com/games</a>

    Considering that Counterstrike, a hl1 based engine(1998) game, is still the most played fps game in the world, followed by Counterstrike : source, a source engine game, and then battlefield 2 a distant no3, I don't think you have to worry so much about the source engine being over the hill any time soon. You have to worry more about the gameplay being good enough to get players away from those other games. Battlefield 1 haCall of duty has ~10% the player base of CS and UT3 has ~0.3%.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Hmm those numbers seem to contradict what I see here in Australia. I don't know about the rest of the world, but the following shows the percentage of players (currently playing) for the top 4 games on Australia's largest server provider (GameArena)
    BF2 40%
    TF2 24%
    CS:S 23%
    CS 12%

    Hardly conclusive stats, but it does confirm what I see anocdotally around the servers.

    Also, the issue here for Unknown Worlds is sales (for the game to be a financial success). How many people are still buying CS? Like someone else said, they have about 6-12 months before their market starts drying up. NS is already a distant memory for a lot of it's original player base, and if NS2 comes out looking dated it's going to be hard to drum up excitement.

    NS was one of my most favorite games ever, and I hope NS2 is a huge success, but they seriously need to get a move on.
  • exoityexoity Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14620Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    If any of you read Game Developer Magazine you will notice in the May 2008 issue there is an article about game engines. In it Doug Lombardi (of Valve) said that the Source engine is constantly being updated. This is true because if you notice Valve typically does not do "huge updates" every six months or so. Instead they update often with new features that actually make it one of the most updated game engine.
  • HazeHaze O RLY? Join Date: 2003-07-07 Member: 18018Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1680546:date=Jun 8 2008, 01:50 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ Jun 8 2008, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pessismist hat but based on past progress I can't see how NS2 will be released in 2 years. Granted we wouldn't expect website hacks and moving cross country to get in the way again, but they've had no issues in the past half year and all we've seen is concept art.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I'm sure someone's already responded to this, but I just wanted to say: I disagree. It seems like the NS2 team is building a solid foundation. Once this foundation is erected, I think we'll see some tremendous progress at a pace rarely matched by other developers. Development of decoda, for instance, is a good example of this. They're getting all their ducks in a row and launching them all at once rather than pushing each individual duck out to sea as soon as it's ready...if that made any sense.
  • ZavrixZavrix Join Date: 2007-03-20 Member: 60424Members
    I know it'll get done when it's done but I REALLY want to see some real progress. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
  • ReynReyn Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43672Members
    NS2 will come out in 2009 (if we are lucky) and it won't look half as good as Gears of War (a 2006 game that ran on a 2005 conole) so yes, the graphics will definitely be out dated.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1681002:date=Jun 12 2008, 11:17 AM:name=Reyn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reyn @ Jun 12 2008, 11:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS2 will come out in 2009 (if we are lucky) and it won't look half as good as Gears of War (a 2006 game that ran on a 2005 conole) so yes, the graphics will definitely be out dated.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Do you realize you've all ready made a decision about the game's graphics when they haven't released a single screen shot? NS looks out-dated now, but it didn't look bad when it came out. My friends and I all said "this is using the HL engine!?" when we first saw it. If you want to judge how NS2 will look, you'd probably be best by comparing it to NS1 when it was released.
  • ReynReyn Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43672Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1681007:date=Jun 13 2008, 01:42 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 13 2008, 01:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you want to judge how NS2 will look, you'd probably be best by comparing it to NS1 when it was released.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I will compare NS2 graphics to other FPS released in the same year. Crysis graphics will become standard in 2009 so good luck.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1681009:date=Jun 12 2008, 12:03 PM:name=Reyn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reyn @ Jun 12 2008, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will compare NS2 graphics to other FPS released in the same year.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes that's what I said. If you compare NS1 graphics to things that were released in the same timeframe it stacks up fine. I'd wager NS2 will as well.
    <!--quoteo(post=1681009:date=Jun 12 2008, 12:03 PM:name=Reyn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Reyn @ Jun 12 2008, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681009"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crysis graphics will become standard in 2009 so good luck.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    A.) I don't believe it for a second.
    B.) Crysis is a single player game. I don't hear anything about Crysis's competitive scene.
    C.) TF2 was released around the same time as Crysis and is doing quite well in terms of sales and community.

    If you're not going to buy it because the graphics aren't top of the line that's your prerogative. I think that's the worst reason you could pass up the game though.
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