The magic ladder floating act!

the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
edited May 2008 in Ideas and Suggestions
<div class="IPBDescription">replace with good animations</div>Imagine this:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The heroic marine is trying to evade the pursuing onos. He jumps onto a ladder and <!--coloro:#CC0000--><span style="color:#CC0000"><!--/coloro-->starts to climb without moving his hands or feet and his gun clipping into the wall<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->. The onos charges after and starts to <!--coloro:#CC0000--><span style="color:#CC0000"><!--/coloro-->hovar without flappin' as it climbs the ladder<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*eh, wtf!??!?!*

Hmm, there really isn't anything wrong with this picture is there? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />

<strike>So, let's talk about fixing this effect. I think new animations would do wonders, triggered by the ladder "event".</strike>


<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro--><div align="center">~EDIT~</div><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->


At long last it’s time for me to update this topic with a solution to the whole problem. First, let’s consider carefully in slow motion what happens when you climb or descend a ladder in Half-Life:<ul><li>You enter the invisible volume of the func_ladder brush entity.</li><li>The engine changes your client movement pattern where "pressing" against the clipping plane moves you "up" and "pulling" moves you "down" (up and down are relative assuming the ladder plane is parallel to a mostly vertical plane; and not the horizontal like monkey bars)</li><li>You exit at any time by moving away from the ladder volume, which can be as simple as jumping off, going above the top of the volume, or stepping off another planar surface</li></ul>
Notice something? No? Well I’ll tell you, there’s no correlation with what the model is doing. No matching world model animations (3rd person) to match what you are doing.

Think about it. That’s where the stuff about players “hovering” on ladders and even clipping into them such as the marines sticking their HMG through a wall as they climb a ladder without using their hands or hovering ladder onos/gorge comes from. Actually if anybody can provide a pictures of your NS friends exemplifying such immersion-breaking ladder antics, I’d be more happy to post them with your credits right here after this paragraph to help those who are still having trouble understanding how ridiculous it looks.

<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Solution<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Fix the animation inconsistency glitches in the player world models for all player classes (except the commander of course) or remove the func_ladder brush entity completely. (as per [name]’s suggestion)

<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->How to fix the animation<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
People (including myself) are going to object if this idea proposed drastic changes to how ladders in Half-Life function in the first person which we are so used to using in the same way across every mod. So the trick is making it <i>look</i> normal without interfering with the gameplay functionality at <i>little</i> as possible. Got it? Ok, then here’s my specific suggestions to do exactly that with a climb, rotate, and pull-up animations. But first before you get confused by terminology, let’s consider the following diagram for reference:
<img src="http://www.xzianthia.net/images/ladder_degrees.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Here you see a ladder abstract which for simplicity’s sake we will assume is perfectly parallel to the X-Y plane and we are climbing it on the southern face. When we are facing the ladder (between 0° and 180°) we have the climb animation played (in forward for up, in reverse for down, and with an animation frame rate locked to match the velocity we go up or down).

Knowing that now, here’s how it works for the marines (all three world models: LA, JP, & HA)<ul><li><b>Climb animation</b> (with rate locked to velocity) – Think of games like Ubisoft’s Splinter Cell, if you movements up and down a ladder or zip line look natural because they are in sync with how much distance you are moving in a set value of time. Velocity can be positive or negative and thus can be used to represent up or down and thereby playing the animation in forward or reverse. This by itself doesn’t affect gameplay at all, even if you remove the ability to fire when facing the ladder (seriously if you feel the need to shoot the ladder with your gun clipping into the wall then perhaps in NS2 the ladder should shoot you back). If peek was implemented then you could lean over the side of the ladder and take shots that way.</li><li><b>Rotate animation</b> – I was inspired by Doom 3’s solution for this, but with respect to it’s event trigger and not the functionality. In Doom 3, if you turn away from that 0° to 180° range (facing the ladder) you “let go” and fall down. Well, that can get kind of annoying for a player used to Half-Life games, but I’m interested in the source code that “senses” when the player is “out of range” by angle. In other words, as you turn past the 180° mark, your model switches from the normal “two handed” climbing animation to a special “one handed” animation in which top half of the model twists as needed recognizing different increments: 180° to 135°, 135° to 270°, 270° to 315°, and 315° to 360° (aka back to °0) This allows you to still hang onto a ladder and fire your gun against that flying lerk about bite you in the back, except now it looks real and not like you are magically standing in mid-air.</li><li><b>Pull-up</b> – This is more of an animation that can play whenever you lift yourself over an edge, whether it be while being boosted by a teammate into a vent or reaching the top of a ladder (as in this case). It should look like you are doing a pull-up, literally.</li></ul>
As far as the alien classes, if you give the gorge the ability to use a web-shooting grapple hook like thing then you can have the ladder brush entity simply ignore any player on the alien team. Problem solved.<ul><li>Skulk – none of this animation stuff is needed since the sucker can wall-walk; make the ladder brush ignore the skulk class completely</li><li>Gorge – best to copy the above marine animations, but this is where you’ll have to get creative in how to make the gorge do this (or perhaps it doesn’t use ladders at all and uses something like the super hook amxx plugin to climb)</li><li>Lerk – ignore, lerks can fly</li><li>Fade – ignore, fades can blink (and I don’t want to ever see the return of the flypaper fade)</li><li>Onos – ignore, <i>force mappers to fix this with the map design</i>, period. There is <i>NO</i> way to prevent making a huge onos climbing a ladder from looking retarded. It <i>never</i> should have been permitted in NS if you ask me. (unless you are going to put scorpians that hovar w/o flappin in the game, at the expense of any intelligible immersion or consistency NS2 would attempt to create)</li></ul>
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Pro’s<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><ul><li>finally fixes ladders so that NS2 looks as polished as Prince of Persia or Splinter Cell in at least one aspect</li><li>no more hovering onos</li><li>no more models doing some major clipping into ladder polygons</li><li>re-inforces new marine movements like peek and pull-up able to be used for other aspects in the game</li></ul>
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Con’s<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->:</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><ul><li>marines can’t shoot into a ladder with their guns (Why would you need to, WHY?! Make an exception for mines and then everything is smoothed over)</li><li>the onos class can’t climb ladders, forcing mappers for NS2 to plan for this ahead of time (not a big deal at all since there isn’t a single published NS2 map)</li><li>requires a bit more work on models and playing with the source code</li><li>typical conservative resistance to new ideas that change preconceptions (which are based on the existing NS)</li></ul>

Comments

  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    edited June 2007
    no more ladders, easy fix <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> - EDIT : unless deployed by marines as fade traps.

    seriously though - climbing animations would be awesome - but does that mean that marines can't shoot their primary weapon if their hands are being used to climb?
  • NEX9NEX9 Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44299Members
    *slaps schkorpios hand, bad schkorp bad.

    In HL2 you could also see your body / avatar, If this is the case in NS 2 it would be nice to have the animations run true.

    Still it baffels me how a Ono's climbs a ladder.
  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1636739:date=Jun 30 2007, 09:54 PM:name=NEX9)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NEX9 @ Jun 30 2007, 09:54 PM) [snapback]1636739[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    Still it baffels me how a Ono's climbs a ladder.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nanites
  • SvenpaSvenpa Wait, what? Join Date: 2004-01-03 Member: 25012Members, Constellation
    It's all about the mappers.

    No onos ladders = mappers must adjust
    No ladders = mappers must adjust, to ALL
    No alien ladders = mappers must adjust, and this must be really hard

    It's just as silly as why a gorge can climb a ladder, frankly im fine with how it is. May look silly but it's just as scary to see a onos climb up a ladder in front of ya as seeing it around the corner, if not more.
  • N_3N_3 &#092;o/ Join Date: 2004-03-12 Member: 27291Members, Constellation
    doesn't bother me, gameplay is much more important than feasibility. and if i can't shoot my gun whilst climbing a ladder i'm going to rage out.
  • OlljOllj our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
    very simpe:
    under no circumstances place any ladder in any map!

    they are annoying and useless.
  • RhodriRhodri Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17575Members
    Personally I feel there should be less ladders than we currently have, and that while climbing them you are very venerable (should be able to leap off though to avoid being shot/eaten). Would mean you need your teammates to watch your back for you.

    Can't see this runing the game. BF2 / 2142 deal with it very well (you can actually slide down ladders very fast by holding shift - that'd be cool in NS2 =)
  • FaskaliaFaskalia Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Members, Constellation
    Avoiding ladders and using ramps instead.

    Or what about the good old anti-grav lifts ?
  • Andrew_FirebornAndrew_Fireborn Join Date: 2006-09-21 Member: 58036Members
    It is perfectly possible to climb a ladder keeping one hand free. Less than safe of course, but somehow I think that's the last thing on ones mind in a situation like NS.

    As for the Onos and Lerk... Well, it's not that much of a immersion breaker for me.
  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1636964:date=Jul 1 2007, 11:59 PM:name=Andrew_Fireborn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Andrew_Fireborn @ Jul 1 2007, 11:59 PM) [snapback]1636964[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    It is perfectly possible to climb a ladder keeping one hand free. Less than safe of course, but somehow I think that's the last thing on ones mind in a situation like NS.

    As for the Onos and Lerk... Well, it's not that much of a immersion breaker for me.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    True its possible to climb a ladder with one hand, but I would like to see someone try to shoot a shotgun with one hand while climbing a ladder
  • Andrew_FirebornAndrew_Fireborn Join Date: 2006-09-21 Member: 58036Members
    Oh yeah, definite accuracy penalty there. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

    Which is why it generally comes down to an all or nothing in most FPS. (Aside from silly things, like say ease of coding.)

    Ultimately, I'd prefer to have the option to at least have a pistol at the ready in any game implementing ladder climbing like is being talked about here. Especially in one like NS where the swap animations do cost you real, valuable time.
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1636966:date=Jul 2 2007, 12:06 AM:name=Hybridclaw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hybridclaw @ Jul 2 2007, 12:06 AM) [snapback]1636966[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True its possible to climb a ladder with one hand, but I would like to see someone try to shoot a shotgun with one hand while climbing a ladder
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    First shot would be accurate but the recoil might even knock it out of your hand. Unless of course the NS guns have no recoil.

    What I really want to see changed is some animations to go with the ladder climbing (thinking Splinter Cell and yes you can still shoot btw, just not whilst climbing; you can also powerslide down) and the onos NOT to climb ladders.

    This would mean only smaller infantry units would even bother with ladders while the onos and marine APCs or whatever vehicles would be using the larger main routes.

    As for gorges, I would like to see a much slower version of the skulk wallwalk with splooshy suction cup noises. This would be a way to allow for improved placement of structures and resulting DI.

    I don't really think saying removing ladders from maps isn't a solution at all. In fact it makes all of you who posted as a solution that look rather... well... ignorant. Sometimes as a mapper you need to give the marines a means of getting up a level w/o an elevator. Situational flow and geometric aethetics will occasionally demand something like a ladder.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1636791:date=Jul 1 2007, 01:21 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jul 1 2007, 01:21 PM) [snapback]1636791[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    It's all about the mappers.

    No onos ladders = mappers must adjust
    No ladders = mappers must adjust, to ALL
    No alien ladders = mappers must adjust, and this must be really hard

    It's just as silly as why a gorge can climb a ladder, frankly im fine with how it is. May look silly but it's just as scary to see a onos climb up a ladder in front of ya as seeing it around the corner, if not more.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Trying to stop an Onos from climbing it by sticking the ladders in small nooks and crannies can be evaded by the "Crouching Onos" (then again will there be an Onos in ns2? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)

    In some cases ladders are needed to create a passage between two hight differences and by itself adds to atmosphere in relation to the small/claustrophobic feeling this game is supposed to have. And "no alien ladders" can create a lot of stuck/trap location for the aliens (remember ns_nancy's below floor vent system v1.0x?) Also this would require coding not mapping...

    In terms of gameplay I think stopping the marines to be able to fire when on a ladder would make ladders free kill zones for aliens, yet does add to the marines feeling vulnerable and perhaps claustrophobic in those close quarter areas?

    IMHO If ladders were removed from NS it would create a lot of flat looking maps. It also isn't feasible or cost effective to put in hallways with slopes all over the place, y'know since we are talking about the feasibility of this all <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    edited May 2008
    <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=101899" target="_blank">This post has been updated and now includes a solution proposal, instead of just a "hey, how can we fix this?"</a> (click link to jump to context)
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    absolutley agree with animations on player models.

    however i'm thinking ladders might be a good way to create ONOS/Gorge no go zones either by mappers, or better still, ingame by commander deployed or marine player created ladders.

    there is no way an onos could climb a ladder, it would collapse, and even if it was strong enough, i don't think onos/gorges have opposable thumbs to hold on.


    so i say limit ladders to tight areas like vents and access hatches - places where an onos wouldn't fit anyway
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    I like.

    Poor coders and animators, though.
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    edited May 2008
    <!--quoteo(post=1679663:date=May 28 2008, 09:30 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ May 28 2008, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->absolutley agree with animations on player models.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    yay! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

    <!--quoteo(post=1679663:date=May 28 2008, 09:30 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ May 28 2008, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->however i'm thinking ladders might be a good way to create ONOS/Gorge no go zones either by mappers, or better still, ingame by commander deployed or marine player created ladders.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's interesting. Make a separate, new topic for that idea and well see what people think of it. It could be cool.

    <!--quoteo(post=1679663:date=May 28 2008, 09:30 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ May 28 2008, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there is no way an onos could climb a ladder, it would collapse, and even if it was strong enough, i don't think onos/gorges have opposable thumbs to hold on.
    so i say limit ladders to tight areas like vents and access hatches - places where an onos wouldn't fit anyway<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    if( onos + ladder = no )
    then{ yay! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> }

    What's this about gorge thumbs? Hmm, sound like another new idea to me. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />
    (be sure to provide an illustration if somebody makes that into a topic)
    It could be both humorous for ol' NS players (NS2 newbies won't get it) and functionally useful I suppose.

    <!--quoteo(post=1679699:date=May 29 2008, 02:23 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spellman23 @ May 29 2008, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    yay! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

    <!--quoteo(post=1679663:date=May 28 2008, 09:30 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(schkorpio @ May 28 2008, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Poor coders and animators, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Plan to implement early into the source and it's not too hard. (the later on it gets in the software development process, the more difficult it becomes. Once you are near beta you might as well forget it)

    Animation won't be too bad as long as as you have improved, better detailed bones. (it's what its called, I can't help it if that sounds funny) Considering all of the models are being updated completely that shouldn't be so bad either.
  • DrfuzzyDrfuzzy FEW... MORE.... INCHES... Join Date: 2003-09-21 Member: 21094Members
    edited May 2008
    I like it, the ladder would most likely have to be a model though to fit v_ models. There could be animations for firing a pistol or lmg, and the fact that the onos could not use it would add much more gameplay when your thinking on how to design your base.

    A shotgun don't kick that hard one handed, its like holding a trashcan lid while someones hitting it with a bat. (i own mossberg 500 cruiser, per experience)
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    I think you'd be surprised at just how much extra animation and codework this is for a primarily aesthetic change.

    I think I'd just prefer it if ladders were kept to very tight vertical tubes (mapper-designed) and Only Marines could climb ladders (all Aliens would be unaffected by ladders).

    That would mean Skulks could crawl up the ladder as if a wall, Fades could blink up, Lerks could hover up and Gorges and Onoses would have to find an alternate route.

    I really don't think this would hurt gameplay, in fact it would probably improve design because people would give Onoses more consideration.
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13249Members
    I would like to offer an idea I just had, assuming a Onos can't climb ladders in NS2, I would like to suggest, perhaps this is inspired from the Onos Impact thread, that an Onos be able to knock Marines off a ladder, perhaps even shake the floor beneath a Marine(s) who are on a ledge above causing them to "step" off to drop down to the Onos' level.

    This way, ladders do not guarantee on safety from a an Onos and it still preserves that feeling of "Ohnoes!" Hope you recognize the give and take I am suggesting with this, plus it seems like something that keeps the intended visual aspects sought by the whole ladder climbing stuff breaking down our 4th wall, I rather suspect an Onos given its size has all kinds of "impact", especially against those perched precariously on a ladder.
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1679810:date=May 30 2008, 02:58 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 30 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you'd be surprised at just how much extra animation and codework this is for a primarily aesthetic change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    And I know two people in Louisville who'd be happy to try to make it happen. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />

    <!--quoteo(post=1679810:date=May 30 2008, 02:58 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 30 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I'd just prefer it if ladders were kept to very tight vertical tubes (mapper-designed) and Only Marines could climb ladders (all Aliens would be unaffected by ladders).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Mappers can help, but very few NS maps employed this design. Even ns_mineshaft expanded the ladder wells from the original beta to allow for an onos to climb them. Form will always tend to follow function. While yes mappers have a big roll to play here in maintaining immersion, the developers should do <i>everything </i>possible to give mappers the tools and designs needed for them to unleash their level-designing creativity.

    <!--quoteo(post=1679810:date=May 30 2008, 02:58 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ May 30 2008, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That would mean Skulks could crawl up the ladder as if a wall, Fades could blink up, Lerks could hover up and Gorges and Onoses would have to find an alternate route.

    I really don't think this would hurt gameplay, in fact it would probably improve design because people would give Onoses more consideration.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yay! I'm glad you see how this could really help diversify NS2 map design. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

    <!--quoteo(post=1679838:date=May 31 2008, 12:13 AM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ May 31 2008, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to offer an idea I just had, assuming a Onos can't climb ladders in NS2, I would like to suggest, perhaps this is inspired from the Onos Impact thread, that an Onos be able to knock Marines off a ladder, perhaps even shake the floor beneath a Marine(s) who are on a ledge above causing them to "step" off to drop down to the Onos' level.

    This way, ladders do not guarantee on safety from a an Onos and it still preserves that feeling of "Ohnoes!" Hope you recognize the give and take I am suggesting with this, plus it seems like something that keeps the intended visual aspects sought by the whole ladder climbing stuff breaking down our 4th wall, I rather suspect an Onos given its size has all kinds of "impact", especially against those perched precariously on a ladder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Fun with physics eh? I like your addendum, although admittedly it would remind me constantly of D&D "grapple checks" if I were going to program it.
    <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1679999:date=Jun 2 2008, 07:32 AM:name=the_x5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Jun 2 2008, 07:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679999"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I know two people in Louisville who'd be happy to try to make it happen. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, seriously, it's a tonne of work (it'd take weeks to get the code and animations working together properly). Giving mappers a few guidelines about how to incorporate ladders into maps is much more cost-effective and it doesn't break immersion either. They're an Indy studio, they have to choose how they spend their fund very wisely. If Day of Defeat: Source and Counter-Strike: Source can get away with no ladder animations, I think NS2 can.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Mappers can help, but very few NS maps employed this design. Even ns_mineshaft expanded the ladder wells from the original beta to allow for an onos to climb them. Form will always tend to follow function. While yes mappers have a big roll to play here in maintaining immersion, the developers should do <i>everything </i>possible to give mappers the tools and designs needed for them to unleash their level-designing creativity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's pointless to use Mineshaft as an example because A) it was removed from the official cycle because its design wasn't up to par, and B) this is NS2, anyone mapping for it will have learnt a lot about how to design maps for the gameplay.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yay! I'm glad you see how this could really help diversify NS2 map design.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I was talking about disabling ladders for all Aliens!
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