<!--quoteo(post=1676679:date=Apr 23 2008, 10:18 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Apr 23 2008, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676679"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><The map manipulation post><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can add some map manipulation if you want to, but as long as you aren't running a 60 player server with huge maps, its hardly a replacement for medding. After a while of comming you can keep the usual 10 player marinestack team catpacked and medpacked relatively good (assuming you've got the res), since you have very little tactical decisions and scouting to do. You need something to keep the pub comm busy, otherwise it gets boring.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1676676:date=Apr 23 2008, 04:55 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 23 2008, 04:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676676"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->your confused. In my suggestion, medpacks would not have to be dropped at all. THey would be essentially casted directly on to the icon. Picture world of warcraft when in group and on the left is all the player icons. You don't have aim or even know where they are, you can just cast directly on the icon. So you can cast on screen or directly on icon. This is how warcraft III works too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see what you're saying now. While it may take up a lot of HUD realestate I think that's forgivable since it is really a better way to give medpacks.
In the spirit of the topic, you could make it hotkeyable q->s->1 or shift-1. If you did that there would probably have to be at least a small cooldown since comms are no longer wasting medpacks.
<!--quoteo(post=1676707:date=Apr 24 2008, 03:03 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 24 2008, 03:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676707"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can add some map manipulation if you want to, but as long as you aren't running a 60 player server with huge maps, its hardly a replacement for medding. After a while of comming you can keep the usual 10 player marinestack team catpacked and medpacked relatively good (assuming you've got the res), since you have very little tactical decisions and scouting to do. You need something to keep the pub comm busy, otherwise it gets boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure that you understand just what I am proposing, what I propose is a battle for map control between the the Kharaa and the Marines that goes beyond just resource points, it would be a much more expanded play of what we currently get from the few weld points that remain in maps but one that involves the Commander positions and their "spells". Restore power, prevent decompression, divert toxic waste, change/open routes, gain map specific technology, gain valuable information, cast map specific commander spells, etc. The possibilities are as good as the mapper wishes them to be if it were to be implemented well.
IMHO, cool down times to med packs and dropping them on pictographs of marines would be far better for both sides, as a Kharaa I have hated invincible marines thanks the med spam and as a Commander I have despised marines who think I should waste resources meant for research that will win the match on their hit points for some short term gamble. Honestly, I would love to see the re-supply given to the marine in the field even better, let them decide the tactical while as Commander I decide the strategic. If this were equated to D&D, I would want the Commander to be like the Wizard, let others be the Cleric.
<!--quoteo(post=1676738:date=Apr 24 2008, 03:34 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Apr 24 2008, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure that you understand just what I am proposing, what I propose is a battle for map control between the the Kharaa and the Marines that goes beyond just resource points, it would be a much more expanded play of what we currently get from the few weld points that remain in maps but one that involves the Commander positions and their "spells". Restore power, prevent decompression, divert toxic waste, change/open routes, gain map specific technology, gain valuable information, cast map specific commander spells, etc. The possibilities are as good as the mapper wishes them to be if it were to be implemented well.
IMHO, cool down times to med packs and dropping them on pictographs of marines would be far better for both sides, as a Kharaa I have hated invincible marines thanks the med spam and as a Commander I have despised marines who think I should waste resources meant for research that will win the match on their hit points for some short term gamble. Honestly, I would love to see the re-supply given to the marine in the field even better, let them decide the tactical while as Commander I decide the strategic. If this were equated to D&D, I would want the Commander to be like the Wizard, let others be the Cleric.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How would things like "prevent decompression", "restore power" and "divert toxic waste" work? I can see comm opening doors and using elevators before the marines reach an area.
Most likely commander spells will play a big role in NS2, but aren't they a bit same as the medpacking; you'll have to be casting spells nonstop to keep your marines supported.
What do you mean by "let them decide the tactical while as Commander I decide the strategic"
One of the most jobs of the commander is to keep a track of the enemy and react correctly. You can med more at crucial points and try to save res when you think its worth it. I'd rather emphasize that than remove the medding. Of course commander spells maybe play the same role in NS2, but still you'll need something dynamic instead of just opening routes and battling the same map elements over and over again.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1676745:date=Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How would things like "prevent decompression", "restore power" and "divert toxic waste" work? I can see comm opening doors and using elevators before the marines reach an area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They would probably be the same as welding a door except they would be special weldables or something like that. The mechanism for commander interaction should always be the same whether the mapper has decided to divert a lava flow, open an emergency route, or use an orbital laser to blast open a wall. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
All the same I wouldn't lean on mappers to provide this level of interaction with the map without a lot of time to prepare. IMO Commander spells should be a different category of interaction and weldables should be the majority of preprogrammed map interaction. A commander spell should work on every map and work the same on every map. <!--quoteo(post=1676745:date=Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you mean by "let them decide the tactical while as Commander I decide the strategic"
One of the most jobs of the commander is to keep a track of the enemy and react correctly. You can med more at crucial points and try to save res when you think its worth it. I'd rather emphasize that than remove the medding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that is what he means, marines should worry (more) about the battles on the ground, specific "tactics", the comm should worry about the war, general "strategy". This seems to be the way NS2 is headed with marines being able to choose their own weapons. <!--quoteo(post=1676745:date=Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course commander spells maybe play the same role in NS2, but still you'll need something dynamic instead of just opening routes and battling the same map elements over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO as long as the maps are different and not too linear, battling the same elements over and over again won't be any different from any other map. The fact that the maps in NS are so big tends to make sure you're fighting in different places most of the time. I think this is a big advantage NS has over a games like TF2 where you're always fighting over the same cps or the same chokepoints with the same pushes.
<!--quoteo(post=1676747:date=Apr 24 2008, 06:03 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 24 2008, 06:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO as long as the maps are different and not too linear, battling the same elements over and over again won't be any different from any other map. The fact that the maps in NS are so big tends to make sure you're fighting in different places most of the time. I think this is a big advantage NS has over a games like TF2 where you're always fighting over the same cps or the same chokepoints with the same pushes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is where the door opening and such would be bad. Medding is a bit of predicting, a bit of quick judging and some twich skill, while using map items often the same routine. You move ahead a marine group and use the things you have used before. Trapping fades and onoses might be interesting, but I kinda doubt a lot of those can be added or the lifeforms will be very unhappy. You'd either have to make lifeforms so tough they can afford to get trapped a few times, or accept that there are areas that are practically sealed of from the alien team. Neither of them sounds much good to me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that is what he means, marines should worry (more) about the battles on the ground, specific "tactics", the comm should worry about the war, general "strategy". This seems to be the way NS2 is headed with marines being able to choose their own weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's one thing that has puzzled me for a while. The commander has the information and the marines have the ability to execute the ideas. What I've seen, most of the field tacticians fail here and there because they haven't got the same big picture as the commander. I just hope the communication between a group of marines and the commander will be something absolutely flawless. Otherwise its groups of HMGs rushing to OCs and desperate last resort 3rd hive rushes without any hive damaging guns.
locallyunscene has the right of what I meant with Commander: Strategic, Marines: Tactical. I would describe it like Commander with what of the big picture he could see through the fog of war would lend towards what paths would be prioritized moving through a space age structure, while the marines on the ground would make decisions on the fly of what formation and what weapons needed to be used for what situation while supporting each other.
To that end, I would like to see maps where a Commander has more play into enabling paths (definitely not disabling, as in trapping a Kharaa lifeform). I don't remember the exact name of the map, but I do remember this one where you would weld a point and laser would blow open a route that bypasses one room, so the marines get closer to a hive, which I think was called satellite (the others fusion and waste). That would be enabling a path. In a similar fashion, once a Commander were to say, play the hacking of the local systems, they could open new paths by allowing a room that was once space vacuum to be passable by diverting power and programs to turning the hard seal shields on (like that one map where you could see out to a loading bay or some such that had decompressed, very cool image), then allowing marines and lifeforms to use that path again. Do you remember that water section in Bast, between the hive and like over near the other? What if the Commander diverted the water, lowering it to waste height, what kinds of new options, like not drowning, that could offer a marine. All in all, the idea springs from how Commander's could close and open doors in NS1, sometimes - it always disappointed me that the Commander couldn't do more to a space structures systems or glean some unlockables, similar to weld spots sometimes do with unlocking new resource points but I don't like limiting the ideas to just that, but rather exploring the possibilities of sub-goals within maps, that don't need to be completed to get the game match ending goal but are hella fun by being another way of dynamically opening up the match, making one match totally different from another, giving a Commander options so that one path might seem as viable as another until the opposition says otherwise and so a Commander could improvise the map enviroment and maybe even other stuff, like rare custom tech, saving a civilian or whatever might give the Marines some satisfaction, not necessarily match win but some smaller victory. What if some maps had a auto destruct clock to race against, beat the match or shut off the clock?
Hmm, what other ideas might a mapper want to toss out more options than existed to us in NS1... It should be more than just map manipulation to really make it something dynamic and special. Of the paths that come to mind there are currently tech and paths to hives, resources and weld points currently affect those, some notion of linking and a front line would be an interesting way to expand upon that, some bonus for unbroken lines of communications, supplies, power, information, facilities, and what not.
Commander "spells" are the one area that puzzles me though, what are those going to be? Cybernetic buffs, a catalyst pack replacement? I could have sworn I remember the Commander dealing damage was on the outs as far as ideas go, what does that leave then to engage the Commander?
*shrug* Oh well, we've discussed lots of commanding ideas on these boards in many different threads, at this point I'm about ready to just have something more concrete about NS2 Commanding from the Devs, so that I can focus my brain storming for ideas a bit better with direction towards something, if that's even what's needed at this point.
All I know is that from my own experience Commanding in NS1 is that med pack, especially spamming, is both tedious and frustrating, even if it does take some skill to guess ahead of the running marines who change direction all the time and hope the pack doesn't end up slow falling through some part of the map near the ceiling. Being a Medic in TF2 has spoiled me, I think, it has more the element of danger so less tedious and less frustration because the healing just flows out to the person I am trying to help and support, thus why I would much rather administer aid by clicking on a icon next to a marine's hit point status if the cool down and resources would allow - and even more like it if to heal another I had to be out in the thick of it risking my neck to Kharaa attacks, similar to welding: You just know Rambos would become more a scarcity if they knew the Commander was cut off from them that way and they needed a buddy or two to stay alive, for more than just over lapping fields of fire power and cutting the cover pie (that is where when fellow marine looks right, you look left and if you are lucky another is looking behind you, you each have taken a third of the pie).
Most people have a huge misconception. (even one of the editors of PCG, so its okay)
Strategy games =! chess. There are no millions of strategies you can use to get the same thing done. In NS the amount of strategic influence a commander has is minimal compared to chess. There is very little way to give the commander more of it unless you add many, many NPC units for commanders to control. So instead of making a game centered towards strategy, a game has to be made centered around strategy while juggling tasks. Whoever can make the best strategic decisions while doing tasks wins instead of who can just make the best strategic decisions. This is why med sniping has to be kept in. Also, how many commanders do you know who can med spam without missing?
<!--quoteo(post=1676936:date=Apr 27 2008, 08:59 AM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ Apr 27 2008, 08:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Most people have a huge misconception. (even one of the editors of PCG, so its okay)
Strategy games =! chess. There are no millions of strategies you can use to get the same thing done. In NS the amount of strategic influence a commander has is minimal compared to chess. There is very little way to give the commander more of it unless you add many, many NPC units for commanders to control. So instead of making a game centered towards strategy, a game has to be made centered around strategy while juggling tasks. Whoever can make the best strategic decisions while doing tasks wins instead of who can just make the best strategic decisions. This is why med sniping has to be kept in. Also, how many commanders do you know who can med spam without missing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Commanding in NS2 is anything like med spamming in NS1, ugh, count me out. I had enough frustration in NS1 as a Commander, thank you very much. It's not about missing, since it can be hard to judge the player's next move, just spam all around them, circling them with med packs. Its really quite simple, not much to it, and ultimately bores me to tears. Its like an uber from a medic in TF2, it doesn't really take much skill, heck, TF2 medic is harder just for not trying to die till you can uber, Commanders have a far easier time of med spamming with out threat of interruption.
When was chess brought up anyways? When I think of strategy in computer games, Starcraft comes to mind (I thought more recently games like Earth 2150, Supreme Commander, and Sins of a Solar Empire did these good as well), where five things come into play: 1) fog of war information gathering, 2) use of terrain aka choose a path, 3) research, 4) combined specialized forces, and 5) counters. Since the last two (4 & 5) are pretty much up to the Marine in NS2 with them choosing their own equipment, that leaves scanning/motion tracking, choosing where you fight (those silly way points) and research. If those two areas saw expansion in the range of their uses, Commander's could have a far more engaging experience then med spam. Until I know better just what 'spells' there are, I am not really sure what is getting expanded and improved on from what I know from NS1 in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1676962:date=Apr 27 2008, 06:22 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CanadianWolverine @ Apr 27 2008, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->circling them with med packs. Its really quite simple, not much to it,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You clearly know what you are talking about.
Also, in your SC example, you missed #6-500 which are 6-250) Building units 250-500) Controlling units
SC has nowhere near the same amount of strategic choices as chess does so they have to compensate for it in some other way. Micromanagement comes to mind. Med spamming = micromanagement + management of res
OK idea time. Since if by going by idea meds would no longer to be spammed, freeing up commander time, having castables and staying away from having to directly click on unpredictably moving marines how bout this.
Commander have direct castables such as medpacks, ammo and catalyst packs.
They have area affect castables such as "blah" bombs (replace blah with appropiate name) that can be dropped by commander and do a pop up in the air 2 feet and burst effect that covers the area with "blah" and slows down all unit movement within the area. It would be the marine equivlant of umbra but an effect appropiate for marines. Think of it as a mortar fire like tactics on BF2142 except with out direct damage.
Same could be done with mass healing and mast catalyst effects. Make price of drop equal to 3 packs so only useful when marines are grouped or have a seperate energy bar for commander tactics.
I dunno, I ran out ideas fast but hey it's a start.
The basic idea is that the commander can affect marines and not aliens. Slowing down the aliens would mean that fades need a huge hp boost and thus cannot be killed without the slow. Kinda bad for new comms, since you absolutely need their help to get the fades out.
<!--quoteo(post=1677008:date=Apr 27 2008, 11:04 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 27 2008, 11:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The basic idea is that the commander can affect marines and not aliens. Slowing down the aliens would mean that fades need a huge hp boost and thus cannot be killed without the slow. Kinda bad for new comms, since you absolutely need their help to get the fades out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any new thing in the game would require balancing of course, and that is such a simple idea it could be balanced by a monkey (with a computer). Saying it couldn't be balanced its such an unimaginative pointless response. Easy to balance. Slowing effect is small, expensive and on long cooldown. You wouldn't even have to effect fade health at all. And who said it would even effect a fade. If the old blink was implemented it would have little to no effect. It could have no effect on fades or it might and that's irrelavant. The point of casting the item would be to increase the chance to killing aliens. Thats the entire point, so why say OMG it going to make it easy to kill aliens..?
Catalyst were added. That makes bullets shoot faster. Did they boost Fade health? Did fades become unkillable without catalyst? No. But it did make it easier at a pricey stratigic cost.
<!--quoteo(post=1677057:date=Apr 28 2008, 06:16 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 28 2008, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any new thing in the game would require balancing of course, and that is such a simple idea it could be balanced by a monkey (with a computer). Saying it couldn't be balanced its such an unimaginative pointless response. Easy to balance. Slowing effect is small, expensive and on long cooldown. You wouldn't even have to effect fade health at all. And who said it would even effect a fade. If the old blink was implemented it would have little to no effect. It could have no effect on fades or it might and that's irrelavant. The point of casting the item would be to increase the chance to killing aliens. Thats the entire point, so why say OMG it going to make it easy to kill aliens..?
Catalyst were added. That makes bullets shoot faster. Did they boost Fade health? Did fades become unkillable without catalyst? No. But it did make it easier at a pricey stratigic cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1677008:date=Apr 28 2008, 12:04 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 28 2008, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The basic idea is that the commander can affect marines and not aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is the more important point. Being slowed by an invisible entity is not that fun. It's neither the skill of the marine nor your skill killing you. It's just an OP ability.
Really it would be no more of an invisble hand than any other abilty the commander has. It would be very on par with a scanner or a flashbang. Scanners uncloak aliens marines can't see. The marines rely on the command to assist them is specific situations. A flashband is thrown and it opens up decision making. Run past it or run away or get blinded. Even after being flashed it's not instant kill. The marines, not the commander or invisible hands has to do the killing. A scanner or flashbang or in this case a slowing down effect would only effect the environment to assist marines by altering the environment and not by direct attack. You wouldn't say medpacks or catalyst kill you, but they do indirectly by making your target shoot faster and live longer. They are no more an invisible hand altering a fight than a tempory slowing effect would. In the end marines still need dodge and shoot, aliens can still make tactical decisions to retreat or move in close and an ability aids the battle no differently than medpacks or catalyst would. The point is to get a commander more statically involved in a battle, but marines still have to do all the work.
As a matter of fact, a catpack is almost stratigically indenticle. Increasing movement rate is similar to slowing the enemy. Increasing firing rate is the same as slowing an enemies attack which wasn't even suggested but hey theres another idea. Both have slightly different advantage but not much. The biggest difference would be a catalyst pack is single target and instant and can travel anywhere while the a slow bomb would be delayed and area of effect. One might even argue a catalyst pack is stronger in most cases.
In the end the commander still isn't directly affecting the aliens, he's creating an area of effect the aliens can choose to leave, stay or enter, like a prewebbed hallway or pregassed room. I specify prewebbed and pregass because both can actually be done instantly. More instantly then a bomb with a detonation warning and timer. The only difference is one comes from the player and the other a commander, but the point is to get the commander more involved in assisting. And complaining about moving imparing. Don't even get me started on onos stomping.
"One might even argue a catalyst pack is stronger in most cases" -me real quickly increasing rate of fire 50% and decreaing alien speed by 33% (increasing firing time by 50%) would result in the alien reaching the marine with the exact same amount of health. The only difference now is at melee range, the marine with a shooting speed enhancement is still shooting faster where in the situation with slower moving speed all advantage is lost after the gap has been closed *. The only way to make in exactly the same would to be decrease attack speed by 33% as well which would be equivlant to increaseing attack speed 50% for marines. That wasn't directly suggest but the you can see increasing attack speed is better than slowing movment speed. In a perfect world attack speed is better. In a non perfect world, slowing down would help increase reaction time and aiming.
The real danger actually comes from stacking the two, the makes for an expensive attack, but hey aliens got plenty of stacking abilities. Web and health spray for example.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1677151:date=Apr 29 2008, 11:56 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 29 2008, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really it would be no more of an invisible hand than any other ability the commander has. It would be very on par with a scanner...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Scanner is the only ability that directly effects the other team, and only in a specific hard counter situation. Most of the time it's used for seiges anyway. It is the exception rather than the rule for good reasons IMO. <!--quoteo(post=1677151:date=Apr 29 2008, 11:56 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 29 2008, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a matter of fact, a catpack is almost strategically identical. Increasing movement rate is similar to slowing the enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's strategically similar, but that's not my point. I'm talking about what it's like for the players on the ground which is why catpacks are in NS1 and a "slow spell" is not. Giving a player assistance is different from hindering another player. You can say technically hindering one player is giving the other assistance, but I'm saying there is an important semantic difference between the two approaches. Namely enhancing a player is more fun for both parties involved compared to hindering a player.
<!--quoteo(post=1677210:date=Apr 30 2008, 10:43 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Apr 30 2008, 10:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's strategically similar, but that's not my point. I'm talking about what it's like for the players on the ground which is why catpacks are in NS1 and a "slow spell" is not. Giving a player assistance is different from hindering another player. You can say technically hindering one player is giving the other assistance, but I'm saying there is an important semantic difference between the two approaches. Namely enhancing a player is more fun for both parties involved compared to hindering a player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
webs/paralyze/stomp are stun and slow spells. They are in ns and far far far more severe.
"There is no difference between enhancing players and hurting other players? I'd like to disagree for obvious reasons" - Anytime
Agreed. I hope you wern't trying to claim I said they were the same.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1678491:date=May 12 2008, 05:26 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ May 12 2008, 05:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678491"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->webs/paralyze/stomp are stun and slow spells. They are in ns and far far far more severe. "There is no difference between enhancing players and hurting other players? I'd like to disagree for obvious reasons" - Anytime
Agreed. I hope you wern't trying to claim I said they were the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1.) Web and stomp are avoidable. An instant slow spell from the sky is not, at least in the way we've been discussing it.
2.) Those are kharaa abilities. Marine movement is important but marines, but kharaa absolutely rely on movement to kill.
The take away from this is if this was a kharaa commander only spell, and there was time to (partially) avoid it(ie: an increase in ambient infestation noise to signal the use of a kharaa spell) then I wouldn't be opposed to a slow spell.
<!--quoteo(post=1678531:date=May 13 2008, 09:17 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ May 13 2008, 09:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678531"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1.) Web and stomp are avoidable. An instant slow spell from the sky is not, at least in the way we've been discussing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do believe I've stated the very opposite of instant. As matter of fact just quickly glancing over my posts I've stated so at least twice.
<!--quoteo(post=1678544:date=May 13 2008, 04:03 PM:name=aNytiMe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aNytiMe @ May 13 2008, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1678544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its still more or less "from the sky".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but that's sort of the whole point, to give the commander more tactical ways to help in a fight other than spamming marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1677057:date=Apr 28 2008, 11:16 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 28 2008, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any new thing in the game would require balancing of course, and that is such a simple idea it could be balanced by a monkey (with a computer). Saying it couldn't be balanced its such an unimaginative pointless response. Easy to balance. Slowing effect is small, expensive and on long cooldown. You wouldn't even have to effect fade health at all. And who said it would even effect a fade. If the old blink was implemented it would have little to no effect. It could have no effect on fades or it might and that's irrelavant. The point of casting the item would be to increase the chance to killing aliens. Thats the entire point, so why say OMG it going to make it easy to kill aliens..?
Catalyst were added. That makes bullets shoot faster. Did they boost Fade health? Did fades become unkillable without catalyst? No. But it did make it easier at a pricey stratigic cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I bet NASA would have use for a monkey like that. Small effect, long cooldown, expensive, _medding replacement_. If you're making it expensive, it isn't a medding replacement. If it isn't expensive, I doubt that aliens have any way to counter it. Medding goes because the alien counter is that they assume the marine isn't going down with 2 hits, and even still fades die to it quite often. Now, if I manage to land 3 bombs on a fade in siege situation, it has most likely no chance of doing damage and getting away alive, or the bombs have absolutely no effect. At least I can't think of any way it would create intense fights, good teamwork and enjoyable gaming to the extend where the commander can "only" heal the marines instead of doing something to the aliens.
Are catpacks balanced? No. If I had unlimited time and motivation for ns and had a team to practise with for a unlimited time, I'd perfect my catpack use first. If you manage to get past that 20 res research cost, it gets nasty. 3 res for a pack that can easily get you away with 2 meds less, take out fades in a short matter of time and take out nodes in seconds. Yet, without proper practise they're just a pub stomp move, or the last thing you research on most cases.
I bet it can be balanced, but you simply can't change numbers and hope everything turns out great. You have to take account every tech, every lifeform and gameplay state and see where the gameplay goes. I think it would make alien gameplay so much more passive, that it wouldn't do any good.
Comments
You can add some map manipulation if you want to, but as long as you aren't running a 60 player server with huge maps, its hardly a replacement for medding. After a while of comming you can keep the usual 10 player marinestack team catpacked and medpacked relatively good (assuming you've got the res), since you have very little tactical decisions and scouting to do. You need something to keep the pub comm busy, otherwise it gets boring.
I see what you're saying now. While it may take up a lot of HUD realestate I think that's forgivable since it is really a better way to give medpacks.
In the spirit of the topic, you could make it hotkeyable q->s->1 or shift-1. If you did that there would probably have to be at least a small cooldown since comms are no longer wasting medpacks.
I'm not sure that you understand just what I am proposing, what I propose is a battle for map control between the the Kharaa and the Marines that goes beyond just resource points, it would be a much more expanded play of what we currently get from the few weld points that remain in maps but one that involves the Commander positions and their "spells". Restore power, prevent decompression, divert toxic waste, change/open routes, gain map specific technology, gain valuable information, cast map specific commander spells, etc. The possibilities are as good as the mapper wishes them to be if it were to be implemented well.
IMHO, cool down times to med packs and dropping them on pictographs of marines would be far better for both sides, as a Kharaa I have hated invincible marines thanks the med spam and as a Commander I have despised marines who think I should waste resources meant for research that will win the match on their hit points for some short term gamble. Honestly, I would love to see the re-supply given to the marine in the field even better, let them decide the tactical while as Commander I decide the strategic. If this were equated to D&D, I would want the Commander to be like the Wizard, let others be the Cleric.
IMHO, cool down times to med packs and dropping them on pictographs of marines would be far better for both sides, as a Kharaa I have hated invincible marines thanks the med spam and as a Commander I have despised marines who think I should waste resources meant for research that will win the match on their hit points for some short term gamble. Honestly, I would love to see the re-supply given to the marine in the field even better, let them decide the tactical while as Commander I decide the strategic. If this were equated to D&D, I would want the Commander to be like the Wizard, let others be the Cleric.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How would things like "prevent decompression", "restore power" and "divert toxic waste" work? I can see comm opening doors and using elevators before the marines reach an area.
Most likely commander spells will play a big role in NS2, but aren't they a bit same as the medpacking; you'll have to be casting spells nonstop to keep your marines supported.
What do you mean by "let them decide the tactical while as Commander I decide the strategic"
One of the most jobs of the commander is to keep a track of the enemy and react correctly. You can med more at crucial points and try to save res when you think its worth it. I'd rather emphasize that than remove the medding. Of course commander spells maybe play the same role in NS2, but still you'll need something dynamic instead of just opening routes and battling the same map elements over and over again.
They would probably be the same as welding a door except they would be special weldables or something like that. The mechanism for commander interaction should always be the same whether the mapper has decided to divert a lava flow, open an emergency route, or use an orbital laser to blast open a wall. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
All the same I wouldn't lean on mappers to provide this level of interaction with the map without a lot of time to prepare. IMO Commander spells should be a different category of interaction and weldables should be the majority of preprogrammed map interaction. A commander spell should work on every map and work the same on every map.
<!--quoteo(post=1676745:date=Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you mean by "let them decide the tactical while as Commander I decide the strategic"
One of the most jobs of the commander is to keep a track of the enemy and react correctly. You can med more at crucial points and try to save res when you think its worth it. I'd rather emphasize that than remove the medding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that is what he means, marines should worry (more) about the battles on the ground, specific "tactics", the comm should worry about the war, general "strategy". This seems to be the way NS2 is headed with marines being able to choose their own weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1676745:date=Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bacillus @ Apr 24 2008, 01:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1676745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course commander spells maybe play the same role in NS2, but still you'll need something dynamic instead of just opening routes and battling the same map elements over and over again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO as long as the maps are different and not too linear, battling the same elements over and over again won't be any different from any other map. The fact that the maps in NS are so big tends to make sure you're fighting in different places most of the time. I think this is a big advantage NS has over a games like TF2 where you're always fighting over the same cps or the same chokepoints with the same pushes.
This is where the door opening and such would be bad. Medding is a bit of predicting, a bit of quick judging and some twich skill, while using map items often the same routine. You move ahead a marine group and use the things you have used before. Trapping fades and onoses might be interesting, but I kinda doubt a lot of those can be added or the lifeforms will be very unhappy. You'd either have to make lifeforms so tough they can afford to get trapped a few times, or accept that there are areas that are practically sealed of from the alien team. Neither of them sounds much good to me.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that is what he means, marines should worry (more) about the battles on the ground, specific "tactics", the comm should worry about the war, general "strategy". This seems to be the way NS2 is headed with marines being able to choose their own weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's one thing that has puzzled me for a while. The commander has the information and the marines have the ability to execute the ideas. What I've seen, most of the field tacticians fail here and there because they haven't got the same big picture as the commander. I just hope the communication between a group of marines and the commander will be something absolutely flawless. Otherwise its groups of HMGs rushing to OCs and desperate last resort 3rd hive rushes without any hive damaging guns.
To that end, I would like to see maps where a Commander has more play into enabling paths (definitely not disabling, as in trapping a Kharaa lifeform). I don't remember the exact name of the map, but I do remember this one where you would weld a point and laser would blow open a route that bypasses one room, so the marines get closer to a hive, which I think was called satellite (the others fusion and waste). That would be enabling a path. In a similar fashion, once a Commander were to say, play the hacking of the local systems, they could open new paths by allowing a room that was once space vacuum to be passable by diverting power and programs to turning the hard seal shields on (like that one map where you could see out to a loading bay or some such that had decompressed, very cool image), then allowing marines and lifeforms to use that path again. Do you remember that water section in Bast, between the hive and like over near the other? What if the Commander diverted the water, lowering it to waste height, what kinds of new options, like not drowning, that could offer a marine. All in all, the idea springs from how Commander's could close and open doors in NS1, sometimes - it always disappointed me that the Commander couldn't do more to a space structures systems or glean some unlockables, similar to weld spots sometimes do with unlocking new resource points but I don't like limiting the ideas to just that, but rather exploring the possibilities of sub-goals within maps, that don't need to be completed to get the game match ending goal but are hella fun by being another way of dynamically opening up the match, making one match totally different from another, giving a Commander options so that one path might seem as viable as another until the opposition says otherwise and so a Commander could improvise the map enviroment and maybe even other stuff, like rare custom tech, saving a civilian or whatever might give the Marines some satisfaction, not necessarily match win but some smaller victory. What if some maps had a auto destruct clock to race against, beat the match or shut off the clock?
Hmm, what other ideas might a mapper want to toss out more options than existed to us in NS1... It should be more than just map manipulation to really make it something dynamic and special. Of the paths that come to mind there are currently tech and paths to hives, resources and weld points currently affect those, some notion of linking and a front line would be an interesting way to expand upon that, some bonus for unbroken lines of communications, supplies, power, information, facilities, and what not.
Commander "spells" are the one area that puzzles me though, what are those going to be? Cybernetic buffs, a catalyst pack replacement? I could have sworn I remember the Commander dealing damage was on the outs as far as ideas go, what does that leave then to engage the Commander?
*shrug* Oh well, we've discussed lots of commanding ideas on these boards in many different threads, at this point I'm about ready to just have something more concrete about NS2 Commanding from the Devs, so that I can focus my brain storming for ideas a bit better with direction towards something, if that's even what's needed at this point.
All I know is that from my own experience Commanding in NS1 is that med pack, especially spamming, is both tedious and frustrating, even if it does take some skill to guess ahead of the running marines who change direction all the time and hope the pack doesn't end up slow falling through some part of the map near the ceiling. Being a Medic in TF2 has spoiled me, I think, it has more the element of danger so less tedious and less frustration because the healing just flows out to the person I am trying to help and support, thus why I would much rather administer aid by clicking on a icon next to a marine's hit point status if the cool down and resources would allow - and even more like it if to heal another I had to be out in the thick of it risking my neck to Kharaa attacks, similar to welding: You just know Rambos would become more a scarcity if they knew the Commander was cut off from them that way and they needed a buddy or two to stay alive, for more than just over lapping fields of fire power and cutting the cover pie (that is where when fellow marine looks right, you look left and if you are lucky another is looking behind you, you each have taken a third of the pie).
Strategy games =! chess. There are no millions of strategies you can use to get the same thing done. In NS the amount of strategic influence a commander has is minimal compared to chess. There is very little way to give the commander more of it unless you add many, many NPC units for commanders to control. So instead of making a game centered towards strategy, a game has to be made centered around strategy while juggling tasks. Whoever can make the best strategic decisions while doing tasks wins instead of who can just make the best strategic decisions. This is why med sniping has to be kept in. Also, how many commanders do you know who can med spam without missing?
Strategy games =! chess. There are no millions of strategies you can use to get the same thing done. In NS the amount of strategic influence a commander has is minimal compared to chess. There is very little way to give the commander more of it unless you add many, many NPC units for commanders to control. So instead of making a game centered towards strategy, a game has to be made centered around strategy while juggling tasks. Whoever can make the best strategic decisions while doing tasks wins instead of who can just make the best strategic decisions. This is why med sniping has to be kept in. Also, how many commanders do you know who can med spam without missing?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If Commanding in NS2 is anything like med spamming in NS1, ugh, count me out. I had enough frustration in NS1 as a Commander, thank you very much. It's not about missing, since it can be hard to judge the player's next move, just spam all around them, circling them with med packs. Its really quite simple, not much to it, and ultimately bores me to tears. Its like an uber from a medic in TF2, it doesn't really take much skill, heck, TF2 medic is harder just for not trying to die till you can uber, Commanders have a far easier time of med spamming with out threat of interruption.
When was chess brought up anyways? When I think of strategy in computer games, Starcraft comes to mind (I thought more recently games like Earth 2150, Supreme Commander, and Sins of a Solar Empire did these good as well), where five things come into play: 1) fog of war information gathering, 2) use of terrain aka choose a path, 3) research, 4) combined specialized forces, and 5) counters. Since the last two (4 & 5) are pretty much up to the Marine in NS2 with them choosing their own equipment, that leaves scanning/motion tracking, choosing where you fight (those silly way points) and research. If those two areas saw expansion in the range of their uses, Commander's could have a far more engaging experience then med spam. Until I know better just what 'spells' there are, I am not really sure what is getting expanded and improved on from what I know from NS1 in NS2.
You clearly know what you are talking about.
Also, in your SC example, you missed #6-500 which are
6-250) Building units
250-500) Controlling units
SC has nowhere near the same amount of strategic choices as chess does so they have to compensate for it in some other way. Micromanagement comes to mind. Med spamming = micromanagement + management of res
Commander have direct castables such as medpacks, ammo and catalyst packs.
They have area affect castables such as "blah" bombs (replace blah with appropiate name) that can be dropped by commander and do a pop up in the air 2 feet and burst effect that covers the area with "blah" and slows down all unit movement within the area. It would be the marine equivlant of umbra but an effect appropiate for marines. Think of it as a mortar fire like tactics on BF2142 except with out direct damage.
Same could be done with mass healing and mast catalyst effects. Make price of drop equal to 3 packs so only useful when marines are grouped or have a seperate energy bar for commander tactics.
I dunno, I ran out ideas fast but hey it's a start.
Any new thing in the game would require balancing of course, and that is such a simple idea it could be balanced by a monkey (with a computer). Saying it couldn't be balanced its such an unimaginative pointless response. Easy to balance. Slowing effect is small, expensive and on long cooldown. You wouldn't even have to effect fade health at all. And who said it would even effect a fade. If the old blink was implemented it would have little to no effect. It could have no effect on fades or it might and that's irrelavant. The point of casting the item would be to increase the chance to killing aliens. Thats the entire point, so why say OMG it going to make it easy to kill aliens..?
Catalyst were added. That makes bullets shoot faster. Did they boost Fade health? Did fades become unkillable without catalyst? No. But it did make it easier at a pricey stratigic cost.
Catalyst were added. That makes bullets shoot faster. Did they boost Fade health? Did fades become unkillable without catalyst? No. But it did make it easier at a pricey stratigic cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT.
I think this is the more important point. Being slowed by an invisible entity is not that fun. It's neither the skill of the marine nor your skill killing you. It's just an OP ability.
As a matter of fact, a catpack is almost stratigically indenticle. Increasing movement rate is similar to slowing the enemy. Increasing firing rate is the same as slowing an enemies attack which wasn't even suggested but hey theres another idea. Both have slightly different advantage but not much. The biggest difference would be a catalyst pack is single target and instant and can travel anywhere while the a slow bomb would be delayed and area of effect. One might even argue a catalyst pack is stronger in most cases.
In the end the commander still isn't directly affecting the aliens, he's creating an area of effect the aliens can choose to leave, stay or enter, like a prewebbed hallway or pregassed room. I specify prewebbed and pregass because both can actually be done instantly. More instantly then a bomb with a detonation warning and timer. The only difference is one comes from the player and the other a commander, but the point is to get the commander more involved in assisting. And complaining about moving imparing. Don't even get me started on onos stomping.
"One might even argue a catalyst pack is stronger in most cases" -me
real quickly increasing rate of fire 50% and decreaing alien speed by 33% (increasing firing time by 50%) would result in the alien reaching the marine with the exact same amount of health. The only difference now is at melee range, the marine with a shooting speed enhancement is still shooting faster where in the situation with slower moving speed all advantage is lost after the gap has been closed *. The only way to make in exactly the same would to be decrease attack speed by 33% as well which would be equivlant to increaseing attack speed 50% for marines. That wasn't directly suggest but the you can see increasing attack speed is better than slowing movment speed. In a perfect world attack speed is better. In a non perfect world, slowing down would help increase reaction time and aiming.
The real danger actually comes from stacking the two, the makes for an expensive attack, but hey aliens got plenty of stacking abilities. Web and health spray for example.
*in perfect shooting and biting scenerios
Scanner is the only ability that directly effects the other team, and only in a specific hard counter situation. Most of the time it's used for seiges anyway. It is the exception rather than the rule for good reasons IMO.
<!--quoteo(post=1677151:date=Apr 29 2008, 11:56 PM:name=Lt_Hendrickson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lt_Hendrickson @ Apr 29 2008, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1677151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As a matter of fact, a catpack is almost strategically identical. Increasing movement rate is similar to slowing the enemy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's strategically similar, but that's not my point. I'm talking about what it's like for the players on the ground which is why catpacks are in NS1 and a "slow spell" is not. Giving a player assistance is different from hindering another player. You can say technically hindering one player is giving the other assistance, but I'm saying there is an important semantic difference between the two approaches. Namely enhancing a player is more fun for both parties involved compared to hindering a player.
webs/paralyze/stomp are stun and slow spells. They are in ns and far far far more severe.
"There is no difference between enhancing players and hurting other players? I'd like to disagree for obvious reasons" - Anytime
Agreed. I hope you wern't trying to claim I said they were the same.
"There is no difference between enhancing players and hurting other players? I'd like to disagree for obvious reasons" - Anytime
Agreed. I hope you wern't trying to claim I said they were the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.) Web and stomp are avoidable. An instant slow spell from the sky is not, at least in the way we've been discussing it.
2.) Those are kharaa abilities. Marine movement is important but marines, but kharaa absolutely rely on movement to kill.
The take away from this is if this was a kharaa commander only spell, and there was time to (partially) avoid it(ie: an increase in ambient infestation noise to signal the use of a kharaa spell) then I wouldn't be opposed to a slow spell.
I do believe I've stated the very opposite of instant. As matter of fact just quickly glancing over my posts I've stated so at least twice.
Yes but that's sort of the whole point, to give the commander more tactical ways to help in a fight other than spamming marines.
edit: commander spells, I mean.
Catalyst were added. That makes bullets shoot faster. Did they boost Fade health? Did fades become unkillable without catalyst? No. But it did make it easier at a pricey stratigic cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I bet NASA would have use for a monkey like that. Small effect, long cooldown, expensive, _medding replacement_. If you're making it expensive, it isn't a medding replacement. If it isn't expensive, I doubt that aliens have any way to counter it. Medding goes because the alien counter is that they assume the marine isn't going down with 2 hits, and even still fades die to it quite often. Now, if I manage to land 3 bombs on a fade in siege situation, it has most likely no chance of doing damage and getting away alive, or the bombs have absolutely no effect. At least I can't think of any way it would create intense fights, good teamwork and enjoyable gaming to the extend where the commander can "only" heal the marines instead of doing something to the aliens.
Are catpacks balanced? No. If I had unlimited time and motivation for ns and had a team to practise with for a unlimited time, I'd perfect my catpack use first. If you manage to get past that 20 res research cost, it gets nasty. 3 res for a pack that can easily get you away with 2 meds less, take out fades in a short matter of time and take out nodes in seconds. Yet, without proper practise they're just a pub stomp move, or the last thing you research on most cases.
I bet it can be balanced, but you simply can't change numbers and hope everything turns out great. You have to take account every tech, every lifeform and gameplay state and see where the gameplay goes. I think it would make alien gameplay so much more passive, that it wouldn't do any good.