Development Blog Update - 14th Podcast

135

Comments

  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I wouldn't want a single commander-like role for the aliens, top-down or no. A more communal, suggestive system like every alien player being able to "recommend" locations to go or build at seems way more like their style. Although it'd be more of a demand than a suggestion.
  • [bLb]Slayer[bLb]Slayer Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63181Members
    I like the tube idea, the alien commander not so much...

    Perhaps the alien tubes would move you to a tunnel which would lead to a room, or hub, with other tunnels connecting to it if you have more than one entryway. Looking at a tunnel would cause a pop-up minimap to display in the top right corner which would show the entire map for half a second, then zoom to the place where the tunnel would lead allowing you to choose where to go. It would take some time figuring out which tunnel you want to use, but at least you'd bypass marine strongholds. As more tunnels are built, the hub room would expand procedurally, placing tunnels on the walls, floor and ceiling.

    What would happen to your body when you enter? Would you be transformed into bacterium, essentially melting your body and reconstructing it at an exit? What shape would you have when inside these tubes? How would you move? Would the tubes be filled with a bacterium liquid or just regular space?

    Since you'd be in "bacterialand" would any damage to the real world bacterium lengthen the tunnels and possibly cause them to break, leaving your bacterium body at the mercy of nanites? That'd be fun, you and your fellow greenish-brown collections of bacterium cells sloshing through a tube in a desperate attempt to save a hive only to see the tube being breached, shiny nanites flowing in and forcing you into a <b>real</b> resource battle.
  • John TopJohn Top Join Date: 2007-10-06 Member: 62560Members
    Ok, normally I don't like posting more than once in a podcast discussion, but most people arn't thinking along a similar wavelength as me. Here are some points that must be accepted to even begin to understand some of the ideas that are mentioned here.

    Point A: I think Alien Commander was the wrong choice of words for Charlie and Max to use, and as such is getting a negative feedback.
    - The words here severely limit the imagination, as shown by the numerous posts.
    - Replace all instances of "Alien Commander" with "Hive Mind."

    Point B: The Hive Mind is NOT a dictatorship like the Marines.
    - Players work independently of each other to reach a common goal.
    - Players are free to build and organise as they see fit without having to rely on support from the Hive Mind.


    Here are some proposals to use this model to keep the Hive Mind viable, but not requiring team dependency;

    Proposal A: The Hive mind is basically a player that is good at assisting. Instead of being in charge of the team, they are there more to suppliment the team. However, instead of being able to work independently (to prevent dictatorship,) they are limited to assisting only when multiple players are present. (Abilities are unlocked dependent on percentage of team within a certain radius of each other.)

    Proposal B: The exact Opposite of Prop. A. The more players that are present, the more limited the Hive Mind's abilities are, (since the hive mind is essentially "the players".) As the team spreads out more, the Hive Mind is more necessary to "link" the players communication and coordination to a common goal.


    Suggestion: The Hive Mind is limited to within range of Hives, built and in process of building, and within range of Umbilicals (those "tunnels") in order to use it's Hive Abilities. The Hive Mind shouldn't necessarily be a "super alien" but a unique alien that provides a more defensive nature when on the front lines, (Abilities consist of Bite, Parasite, Umbra, Bile Bomb, and Primal Scream. Something like that,) to prevent rambo'ing of the Hive Mind and hopefully prevent needless deaths of the Hive Mind player.


    I hope some of this makes sense. I don't think the "commander" idea for aliens is necessarily ment to bring a dictatorship to the team. Just a single, unique role that allow a sort've balance to be achieved making the teams a little more "even" in terms of roles available without being the same.
  • BuckBuck90BuckBuck90 Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63183Members
    Well instead of an alien commander...how about a king gorge. Make it where he is the only one who can drop hives and these new items called tubes(like phase gate). He could be a little larger with an extra feature like mega bile bomb or something. That's way better than making the aliens just like marines with an overhead view.
  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Members, Constellation
    Interesting. Tubes sounds a lot like my idea of transportation channels in the dynamic infestation, here is the old post <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=99874&st=0&p=1596492&#entry1596492" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...p;#entry1596492</a>

    maybe that sparked something for you guys too? Sounds neat. Alien commander might be a bit too much, would have to see gameplay/ read more about it first.
  • obsidobsid Join Date: 2003-09-16 Member: 20909Members
    edited December 2007
    I think you misunderstand what I meant by spawn camping. I meant marines which attack in the very early game, and then just sit in the corner of the hive room killing aliens the moment they spawn (but not attacking the hive at all). I have been in games where the entire alien team is just sitting in the queue waiting for one of us to spawn and instantly die to 3 marines at diffrent corners of the hive room with med packs sitting under each of them, that isnt fun at all. Now you could say "how could an alien team do that badly to get into that spot", its not as hard as it sounds especialy in a pub game if the marine team has a few good players all it takes is a few early deaths. (oh and the fact that aliens run faster then marines doesnt help much, because they usualy leave at least 1 marine behind to build, and more importantly put a pack or two of mines around incase the aliens attack, and 2 marines, as the commander can jump out of chair, with a pack or two of mines can easly take 6 skulks).

    I have no idea why you disagree that if the alien commander cant go off DI, how the early game would be hurt in any way. I guess it hurts marines offensive game early, but they are already fairly powerfull early game and imo its not that fun to have the game end in 5 min. As far as the general cap res nodes and protect them, which is most of what the early game is, that shouldnt be effected at all as the alien commander wont be around.

    Any implementation of an alien commander is going to be less "noob friendly" as the commander would usualy have a large impact on the game, and therefor less suited for new players to play that role. But it also makes aliens a bit more noob friendly in that they have someone that can instruct them in how to play the game and what they need to do. The big important question in my mind is how to make the alien commander diffrent then the marine commander, and I think there are pleantly of ways of doing this, but which to choose?
  • N_3N_3 &#092;o/ Join Date: 2004-03-12 Member: 27291Members, Constellation
    the tubes idea sounds interesting, but like many others here im skeptical about an alien commander - the more different the teams the better. Perhaps make the alien commander work in 1st person (semi equivalent to the old gorge of ns1) with a much more indepth HUD/hivesight. If it needed to be invincible it could be constructed of DI and just sort of disintegrate and re-form if shot.
  • NamronNamron Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10220Members
    An alien commander, a superior life form - like a gorge with a captains hat kind of thing? I don't like it. I prefer to have that collective hive mind concept, not a certain player, as the boss. Besides, it makes the teams less different. Regardless of how much or how little, it can't be good.

    The "tubes" sounds strange, I'm not sure I understand. Are they going to be placable models (similar to the buildings in Empires, that you can walk around inside? You know that they can't be too pretty because they eat FPS) or "unlockable" parts of the map that you teleport to through the placable entrance/exit?
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1664299:date=Dec 17 2007, 09:26 AM:name=Namron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Namron @ Dec 17 2007, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664299"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An alien commander, a superior life form - like a gorge with a captains hat kind of thing? I don't like it. I prefer to have that collective hive mind concept, not a certain player, as the boss. Besides, it makes the teams less different. Regardless of how much or how little, it can't be good.

    The "tubes" sounds strange, I'm not sure I understand. Are they going to be placable models (similar to the buildings in Empires, that you can walk around inside? You know that they can't be too pretty because they eat FPS) or "unlockable" parts of the map that you teleport to through the placable entrance/exit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i think the tubes are more like the p0rtal gun, except you don't instantly appear in the other area, there is a limbo area that connects the two portals with a short tunnel i spose.
    I think it would be a great counter to marines welding up doors.

    as for the alien commander i'm not convinced.
  • 11k11k Join Date: 2007-11-17 Member: 62941Members
    The alien tube thing is totally dynamic right, so wouldn't portal technology be perfect for it?

    This diagram explains why
    <img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/559/aliengn2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Only problem is you need 4 portals per hole.
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1664311:date=Dec 16 2007, 05:17 PM:name=11k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(11k @ Dec 16 2007, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien tube thing is totally dynamic right, so wouldn't portal technology be perfect for it?

    This diagram explains why
    <img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/559/aliengn2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Only problem is you need 4 portals per hole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's pretty much how we were thinking about implementing it.
  • 11k11k Join Date: 2007-11-17 Member: 62941Members
    edited December 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1664360:date=Dec 17 2007, 06:35 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 17 2007, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's pretty much how we were thinking about implementing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Oh ok, sweet, but will computers be able to handle the stress of having to render all the portals at a good framerate?

    I'm guessing there will be a limit of how many alien tunnels there can be, probably something like 2 to 4, which would mean 8 to 16 portals total. How will lower end PCs cope with this?

    I don't know about you, but, when i play Portal, and have created the 2 portals, i get quite i dramatic fps drop. Now, thats only with 2 portals, so you could just imagine how low it would get with up to 4, let alone 16 portals being rendered at the same time.
  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Members, Constellation
    edited December 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1664360:date=Dec 17 2007, 06:35 AM:name=Max)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Max @ Dec 17 2007, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's pretty much how we were thinking about implementing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->With dynamically generated 'tubes' or mapper-placed 'tubes'?

    If mapper-placed, that means putting a cap on the total number of tubes permitted, which is something that does not apply to Marines. If dynamically generated, this means the generation code has to be advanced enough not to make a straight and narrow killbox that Marines can camp in (since you still haven't negated your previous comment about Marines being able to enter these tubes).

    Honestly I think all the work you're likely to put into having a physical representation of the tube that is newb-proof and exploit-proof is not worth the very small payoff it gives in terms of immersion. I can't see any advantage a 'tube room' gives to the actual raw gameplay. You mentioned Aliens being able to cluster inside ready for a rush, but that can be achieved just as easily by using the PG method, where Marines simply assemble in base and then charge through the PG. So why invest such a large proportion of development time on it?

    As I see it you'd need the following for tubes with a physical representation of the room:
    - 2D and 3D artwork for entrance/exits, including animation (a.k.a. the 'thresholds')
    - code for 'threshold' placement
    <b>- code to deal with what happens when a 'threshold' is destroyed while players are inside the tube room</b>
    - 2D and possibly 3D artwork for 'tube' interior
    <b>- pre-placed BSP geometry for multiple tube interiors OR 'clever' code that dynamically generates newb-proof and exploit-proof tube interiors</b>
    - sfx for threshold entering/exiting
    - ambient sfx for tube interior

    These two bold sections require a lot of playtesting to get them balanced correctly.

    If you make it work like a PG, perhaps with a 2D HUD representation of travelling through the infestation (like the Onos digestion screen), you'd need only the following:
    - 2D and 3D artwork, and animation for thresholds
    - code for 'threshold' placement
    - animated 2D graphic for 'tube' interior
    - sfx for threshold entering/exiting
    - ambient sfx for tube interior

    In fact, since a lot of the artwork and code would be the same for the two, if makes total sense to go with a PG-style version first with a 2D animated graphic for the journey time, and -if you have the time and money to spare, and you have solid ideas to make it exploit-proof- delve into integrating in the 3D tubespace. But really, imho, the extra development time, feature testing and balance testing to make the 3D tubespace a reality is not worth the very minimal improvement it could provide to the gameplay.
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    If gorges can make tunnels/portals, this makes them a viable class again, as introducing an alien commander would make them less viable.

    I'm wondering if these tunnels would be too powerful. They need limitations, maybe on size so that onos and fades cant use them, or fades can but they must duck/crawl or something.
  • NeoGregorianNeoGregorian Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13093Members, Constellation
    Many people have said most of what I feel but I'll try to get some new angle.

    Finance - Yay! Good for you!!! Also, I hope Valve finds it worth to give you more aid.

    Tubes - Using portal technology as mentioned above sounds really cool, but doesn't it involve making many instances of the world, might not that be heavy (unless you figure a way around it).
    Secondly isn't this pretty much like vents except dynamic in their placement. Does it fill a gameplay purpouse ?
    Please consider it carefully before spending too much time on it.

    Alien Commander - I have very mixed feelings about this. I am both strongly in favor of this and strongly opposed to it.
    What it does (if by commander you mean commander and not commanders) is it unifies the aliens. I feel like that is very much needed but sees how it removes the, in my opinion, most fundamental aspect of NS1: That aliens are individuals working towards a single goal, not herded as marines.
    You spoke of the resource model and I'm glad that you are making attempt to create some Unified Resource Model (URM ?) which works the same for both teams, I am fully in favor of such a change (improvement?) but it need not synchronize how the teams are organized.

    I assume the URM somehow give team resources to both teams, this is used to build and upgrade and so on.
    If marines purchase their weapons with some kind of individual resource, then why not simply do the same thing for aliens?
    Have a individual model for personal upgrades (evolving to other classes, and personal upgrades?) and a URM that only the gorges can use (but which they share) to build chambers, hives, etc.
    This way the Gorge(s) would not be a single commanders but more like Captains commanding the rest of the aliens.
    If you then want aliens to have access to more control / different perspectives, have them use the hive or similar structure.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1664242:date=Dec 16 2007, 01:35 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Dec 16 2007, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664242"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wouldn't want a single commander-like role for the aliens, top-down or no. A more communal, suggestive system like every alien player being able to "recommend" locations to go or build at seems way more like their style. Although it'd be more of a demand than a suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I really like this idea. I was hoping for an implicit "overmind" entity that provides information like hivesight and provides objectives based on that hivesight. That's what I was trying to get at in my old <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103325" target="_blank">dynamic objectives</a> post. A pool of player made objectives would be cool too.
    <!--quoteo(post=1664122:date=Dec 15 2007, 01:10 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Dec 15 2007, 01:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664122"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then again, you guys made NS and that worked out fine, so if you say NS2 will work, I'm inclined to believe you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    While I share many of the concerns of people in this thread, I ultimately believe this to be true.
  • INKEDOUTINKEDOUT Join Date: 2007-06-23 Member: 61343Members
    edited December 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1664264:date=Dec 16 2007, 08:30 PM:name=John Top)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John Top @ Dec 16 2007, 08:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, normally I don't like posting more than once in a podcast discussion, but most people arn't thinking along a similar wavelength as me. Here are some points that must be accepted to even begin to understand some of the ideas that are mentioned here.

    Point A: I think Alien Commander was the wrong choice of words for Charlie and Max to use, and as such is getting a negative feedback.
    - The words here severely limit the imagination, as shown by the numerous posts.
    - Replace all instances of "Alien Commander" with "Hive Mind."

    Point B: The Hive Mind is NOT a dictatorship like the Marines.
    - Players work independently of each other to reach a common goal.
    - Players are free to build and organise as they see fit without having to rely on support from the Hive Mind.
    Here are some proposals to use this model to keep the Hive Mind viable, but not requiring team dependency;

    Proposal A: The Hive mind is basically a player that is good at assisting. Instead of being in charge of the team, they are there more to suppliment the team. However, instead of being able to work independently (to prevent dictatorship,) they are limited to assisting only when multiple players are present. (Abilities are unlocked dependent on percentage of team within a certain radius of each other.)

    Proposal B: The exact Opposite of Prop. A. The more players that are present, the more limited the Hive Mind's abilities are, (since the hive mind is essentially "the players".) As the team spreads out more, the Hive Mind is more necessary to "link" the players communication and coordination to a common goal.
    Suggestion: The Hive Mind is limited to within range of Hives, built and in process of building, and within range of Umbilicals (those "tunnels") in order to use it's Hive Abilities. The Hive Mind shouldn't necessarily be a "super alien" but a unique alien that provides a more defensive nature when on the front lines, (Abilities consist of Bite, Parasite, Umbra, Bile Bomb, and Primal Scream. Something like that,) to prevent rambo'ing of the Hive Mind and hopefully prevent needless deaths of the Hive Mind player.
    I hope some of this makes sense. I don't think the "commander" idea for aliens is necessarily ment to bring a dictatorship to the team. Just a single, unique role that allow a sort've balance to be achieved making the teams a little more "even" in terms of roles available without being the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Both A and B are silly ideas, it would just end up with players either staying away from each other to get help or standing still right next to each other to get help. I can't see it working well at all. Plus this would still make them as reliant on their commander as a Marine.

    <!--quoteo(post=1664274:date=Dec 16 2007, 09:31 PM:name=BuckBuck90)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BuckBuck90 @ Dec 16 2007, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664274"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well instead of an alien commander...how about a king gorge. Make it where he is the only one who can drop hives and these new items called tubes(like phase gate). He could be a little larger with an extra feature like mega bile bomb or something. That's way better than making the aliens just like marines with an overhead view.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes King Gorge! None of this silly Queen Alien thing! KING GORGE FOR THE WIN! But have more than one, or only one alive at a time, so if he dies someone else can become a King Gorge. He should be faster than a gorge and stronger, but have poor attacks, basically good at defending. He shouldn't be able to drop chambers. Just the Hive and tube doorways. He should also have a detailed mini map that he can drop waypoints on, but not be constrained to a chair.

    Yeah! But more than one King Gorge should be possible. Cause the Aliens are not Dictated!

    <!--quoteo(post=1664381:date=Dec 17 2007, 11:21 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Dec 17 2007, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->With dynamically generated 'tubes' or mapper-placed 'tubes'?

    If mapper-placed, that means putting a cap on the total number of tubes permitted, which is something that does not apply to Marines. If dynamically generated, this means the generation code has to be advanced enough not to make a straight and narrow killbox that Marines can camp in (since you still haven't negated your previous comment about Marines being able to enter these tubes).

    Honestly I think all the work you're likely to put into having a physical representation of the tube that is newb-proof and exploit-proof is not worth the very small payoff it gives in terms of immersion. I can't see any advantage a 'tube room' gives to the actual raw gameplay. You mentioned Aliens being able to cluster inside ready for a rush, but that can be achieved just as easily by using the PG method, where Marines simply assemble in base and then charge through the PG. So why invest such a large proportion of development time on it?

    As I see it you'd need the following for tubes with a physical representation of the room:
    - 2D and 3D artwork for entrance/exits, including animation (a.k.a. the 'thresholds')
    - code for 'threshold' placement
    <b>- code to deal with what happens when a 'threshold' is destroyed while players are inside the tube room</b>
    - 2D and possibly 3D artwork for 'tube' interior
    <b>- pre-placed BSP geometry for multiple tube interiors OR 'clever' code that dynamically generates newb-proof and exploit-proof tube interiors</b>
    - sfx for threshold entering/exiting
    - ambient sfx for tube interior

    These two bold sections require a lot of playtesting to get them balanced correctly.

    If you make it work like a PG, perhaps with a 2D HUD representation of travelling through the infestation (like the Onos digestion screen), you'd need only the following:
    - 2D and 3D artwork, and animation for thresholds
    - code for 'threshold' placement
    - animated 2D graphic for 'tube' interior
    - sfx for threshold entering/exiting
    - ambient sfx for tube interior

    In fact, since a lot of the artwork and code would be the same for the two, if makes total sense to go with a PG-style version first with a 2D animated graphic for the journey time, and -if you have the time and money to spare, and you have solid ideas to make it exploit-proof- delve into integrating in the 3D tubespace. But really, imho, the extra development time, feature testing and balance testing to make the 3D tubespace a reality is not worth the very minimal improvement it could provide to the gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I pictured the tubes as being generated in both ways. Players would generate the doorways, and the mapper would do the tubes themselves. So basically there would be a whole series of (invisible to the mini map and the commander) vents around the map, that don't connected to anything, or show up until a player drops a doorway. Then a doorway would appear between the vent and the map. And then the vents themselves would be made to look like organic tubes.

    But tbh, by the sounds of things (based on what they said in the pod cast), the tubes themselves might be "grown" like DI. So I imagine there would be plenty of constrains on how they are grown, like size, twists, shape, etc. So I imagine there is going to have to be minimum size of a tube, like 2 aliens across, and then maybe a 90° turn after (lets say) 300 units. But then a rule stating that after a 90° (lets say) right another my happen that goes left. And the same with up and down. That way the tubes can constantly go in a straight line without being straight. These three rules (1. Make all tunnels Y units in size. AND 2. turn 90° after X units. AND 3. turn tunnels 90° back on self after X units) alone would be enough to stop a marine camping in there without risking his own neck.

    Server wise, I wonder how much traffic this would cause?
  • invader Ziminvader Zim Join Date: 2007-09-20 Member: 62376Members
    im actually pro alien commander.

    but i see the role of the alien commander as different to the rine comm.

    Keep gorge to drop buildings, and support team mates.

    The alien commander should have a different role.

    so roles such as herding the spread of DI, creating the DI tunnels, Resource management, and strategic overview and intellegence.

    If we are to get an alien commander type role its got to be rather different to the rine one. Different role, abilities UI and persepective.
    in my opinon the aliens need to retain much of their current control but they do need some more central direction on pubs
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1664427:date=Dec 17 2007, 12:18 PM:name=invader Zim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(invader Zim @ Dec 17 2007, 12:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664427"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so roles such as herding the spread of DI, creating the DI tunnels, Resource management, and strategic overview and intelligence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Replace "spread of DI" with "control of environment" and you've just described both commander's duties.
  • invader Ziminvader Zim Join Date: 2007-09-20 Member: 62376Members
    in ns 1 the comm doesnt really control the environment much. speculatively he will in ns2 i spose.

    it was suggested in another thread that the rine comm should be the primary combatant of the DI so if the alien leader (comm) is the primary grower of DI there would be a sort of comm vs comm battle in the background, whether this more detached play is a good thing is up for debate.

    the key difference in my opinion between what the alien comm would be doing and what the rine comm currently does is building dropping. the gorges should still drop structures in my opinion. Also the alien comm would not drop weapons ammo or micro manage which the rine comm does currently. The devs suggested that rines will purchase their own weapon set up. Aliens already do that so the alien comm wont be assigning evolution to players.

    i dont think its worht writing off the idea of an alien comm simply because the rines have a comm. The fade has acid rocket which is a ranged attack. the rines use ranged attacks. But the acid rocket while being a ranged attack is unique enuth to make it distinctive from the rines. If the aliens have a comm it should be unique enuth for it to be distinctive from the rines
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited December 2007
    <!--quoteo(post=1664311:date=Dec 16 2007, 07:17 PM:name=11k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(11k @ Dec 16 2007, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien tube thing is totally dynamic right, so wouldn't portal technology be perfect for it?

    This diagram explains why
    <img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/559/aliengn2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    Only problem is you need 4 portals per hole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Great implementation IMO. To make it look good though you would really have to make the alien hallway really interesting to look at. Instead of a straight line, make it bendy (which in turn, makes it better for VIS), and seem like its winding its way through the level.

    Once you get it looking really good, then add some good ambient sound effects like muffled gunfire from nearby, but have it sound like you're inside a body or something. Make that lone marine that's trying to ninja a desperate PG for the comm freak out a bit, and give him some small crannies to hide in the tunnel <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />.
  • EmpVEmpV Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34556Members, Constellation
    edited December 2007
    In regards to <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Tubes"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    I think that the idea of hallways whether made in map or dynamically is a <b><!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->complicated<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>* idea. It is just <u>way too much work</u> for the Devs and will <i><!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->possibly<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i>* be limiting to gameplay as well as game performance.
    *<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->edited for clarity<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I would like to suggest another idea that has not been mentioned and is <b>much easier</b> to implement.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Tubes would work like this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    When a player enters a tube, he <u><b>stays right where he is</b></u> in the map. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Instead of being teleported to some hallway or another place on the map, the player is changed into Dynamic Infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->


    Let me explain what "Changed into Dynamic Infestation" means...

    <b>The player is not actually changed into anything.</b> That is just the concept. What actually happens is the player is made invisible and his view of the map changes to show that he is inside the DI. (imagine something similar to alien flashlight view)
    Source has many effects that can make the screen change color, look blurred, etc. The player would be able to tell that he is in DI and perhaps it could have special sound effects too.
    The player can run along in the hallway where he was before he entered the DI. The player doesn't actually go anywhere, he just "changes". The player becomes like a ghost. <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro--><i>The player can move through any players/buildings/marines while in this "molten" state. Just not map geometry.</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->* He can still see marines and the map like normal, but he cannot interact with anything unless he leaves through another tube entrance/exit. <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro--><i>This is not a instant transport to another part of the map like suggested in some other posts or like movement chambers. The alien still has to run at normal speeds wherever it is he wants to go.</i><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->*

    This idea keeps alien movement different from marines completely. Aliens can use the DI to move around safely in their territory. It also works wonders for ambushing as a whole group of skulks could wait in the DI and then suddenly appear and attack without warning. It would also be a safe haven to escape to to heal. Or it could also be a prison if marines destroy your entrance.

    <!--coloro:#DDA0DD--><span style="color:#DDA0DD"><!--/coloro-->To sum things up: <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    Aliens are fast and should not have "Phase gates"
    Entering DI doesn't make aliens faster, but helps them move in their own territory.


    <!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Some Detail Points:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    -Gorges can make tube entrys anywhere on the DI and maybe can even make exits while inside the DI.(there could also be a limit on entrances)
    -Only small aliens can use the tubes.
    -Aliens can only enter through entrys that are built by a gorge.
    -Marines can destroy the entry points.


    <!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->edited<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->*
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    I like your idea <b>EmpV</b>. I had always pictured a screen like the onos devour screen(except green and infestation-y) and you navigate using your minimap.
  • Lux7Lux7 Join Date: 2005-05-10 Member: 51369Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1664441:date=Dec 17 2007, 02:20 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Dec 17 2007, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Tubes"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    I think that the idea of hallways whether made in map or dynamically is a <b>silly</b> idea. It is just <u>way too much work</u> for the Devs and will be limiting to gameplay as well as game performance.

    <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I would like to suggest another idea that has not been mentioned and is <b>much easier</b> to implement.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Tubes would work like this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    When a player enters a tube, he <u><b>stays right where he is</b></u> in the map. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Instead of being teleported to some hallway or another place on the map, the player is changed into Dynamic Infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    Let me explain what "Changed into Dynamic Infestation" means...

    <b>The player is not actually changed into anything.</b> That is just the concept. What actually happens is the player is made invisible and his view of the map changes to show that he is inside the DI. (imagine something similar to alien flashlight view)
    Source has many effects that can make the screen change color, look blurred, etc. The player would be able to tell that he is in DI and perhaps it could have special sound effects too.
    The player can run along in the hallway where he was before he entered the DI. The player doesn't actually go anywhere, he just "changes". The player becomes like a ghost. He can still see marines and the map like normal, but he cannot interact with anything unless he leaves through another tube entrance/exit.

    This idea keeps alien movement different from marines completely. Aliens can use the DI to move around safely in their territory. It also works wonders for ambushing as a whole group of skulks could wait in the DI and then suddenly appear and attack without warning. It would also be a safe haven to escape to to heal. Or it could also be a prison if marines destroy your entrance.

    <!--coloro:#DDA0DD--><span style="color:#DDA0DD"><!--/coloro-->To sum things up: <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    Aliens are fast and should not have "Phase gates"
    Entering DI doesn't make aliens faster, but helps them move in their own territory.
    <!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Some Detail Points:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    -Gorges can make tube entrys anywhere on the DI and maybe can even make exits while inside the DI.(there could also be a limit on entrances)
    -Only small aliens can use the tubes.
    -Aliens can only enter through entrys that are built by a gorge.
    -Marines can destroy the entry points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That is a very interesting idea. I would love to at least try that out.
  • Dark RageDark Rage Join Date: 2007-12-05 Member: 63081Members
    Why don't you take that idea to its logical end. Skulks/gorges can burrow into the DI and as you said become part of it/move within it at normal speed. They could then reform at any point within the DI (you would still physically have to move there before reforming). To not completely unbalance it you could have a bulge that moves within the DI (envision marine whack-a-mole). Or make it so that it takes a second or two to materialize.
  • RespectAquamanRespectAquaman Join Date: 2007-12-17 Member: 63199Members
    I think i may be one of the only ones who is not totally against the alien com

    Originally i agreed that it would change the dynamic and force the teams to be entirely to similar.

    Playing the devils advocate though.....

    I think Siege 007 is one of the best examples of how the aliens not having a commander is a bad thing. The majority of the time, there is an alien who decides to be a jackass and drop the wrong chamber at the start, or drop chambers in areas that have no strategic advantage whatso ever and waste tons of res.

    I feel like the change is not nearly extreme as everyone thinks it will be and UW wont give the alien comander nearly as much power. Its really a balance check just as the marines have to protect the aliens from themselves.

    I like the tubes but there should be a way to destroy them just as there is a way to destroy a phase gate. Maybe an option to weld over or shoot and destroy. and if that the case all charecters other than the onos should be aloud through
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1664465:date=Dec 17 2007, 04:06 PM:name=Dark Rage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dark Rage @ Dec 17 2007, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why don't you take that idea to its logical end. Skulks/gorges can burrow into the DI and as you said become part of it/move within it at normal speed. They could then reform at any point within the DI (you would still physically have to move there before reforming). To not completely unbalance it you could have a bulge that moves within the DI (envision marine whack-a-mole). Or make it so that it takes a second or two to materialize.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I personally think it should be invisible, marines on alien territory should have to expect an attack from anywhere. For balance the rematerialize time would have to be a few seconds so this wouldn't be something to do in the middle of combat. It would be wait a couple seconds for the marine to pass while your teammates distract him from the front and then rematerialize...
    <!--quoteo(post=1664468:date=Dec 17 2007, 04:18 PM:name=RespectAquaman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RespectAquaman @ Dec 17 2007, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664468"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think i may be one of the only ones who is not totally against the alien com

    Originally i agreed that it would change the dynamic and force the teams to be entirely to similar.

    Playing the devils advocate though.....

    I think Siege 007 is one of the best examples of how the aliens not having a commander is a bad thing. The majority of the time, there is an alien who decides to be a jackass and drop the wrong chamber at the start, or drop chambers in areas that have no strategic advantage whatso ever and waste tons of res.

    I feel like the change is not nearly extreme as everyone thinks it will be and UW wont give the alien commander nearly as much power. Its really a balance check just as the marines have to protect the aliens from themselves.

    I like the tubes but there should be a way to destroy them just as there is a way to destroy a phase gate. Maybe an option to weld over or shoot and destroy. and if that the case all characters other than the onos should be aloud through<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Probably the most flammable example you could use however I see your point. On marines there's on point of failure, the comm. On Kharaa anyone on the team can go gorge and cause problems for the team. Still, I don't think you should sacrifice the gameplay for possible llamas. An alien team that works together is a beautiful thing, and with a well admin'ed server 9 games out of ten will be llama-free.
  • INKEDOUTINKEDOUT Join Date: 2007-06-23 Member: 61343Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1664432:date=Dec 17 2007, 06:05 PM:name=invader Zim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(invader Zim @ Dec 17 2007, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->in ns 1 the comm doesnt really control the environment much. speculatively he will in ns2 i spose.

    it was suggested in another thread that the rine comm should be the primary combatant of the DI so if the alien leader (comm) is the primary grower of DI there would be a sort of comm vs comm battle in the background, whether this more detached play is a good thing is up for debate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I like that idea...

    <!--quoteo(post=1664441:date=Dec 17 2007, 07:20 PM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Dec 17 2007, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to <!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro--><b>"Tubes"</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    I think that the idea of hallways whether made in map or dynamically is a <b>silly</b> idea. It is just <u>way too much work</u> for the Devs and will be limiting to gameplay as well as game performance.

    <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I would like to suggest another idea that has not been mentioned and is <b>much easier</b> to implement.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    <!--coloro:#ADD8E6--><span style="color:#ADD8E6"><!--/coloro-->Tubes would work like this:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    When a player enters a tube, he <u><b>stays right where he is</b></u> in the map. <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Instead of being teleported to some hallway or another place on the map, the player is changed into Dynamic Infestation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    Let me explain what "Changed into Dynamic Infestation" means...

    <b>The player is not actually changed into anything.</b> That is just the concept. What actually happens is the player is made invisible and his view of the map changes to show that he is inside the DI. (imagine something similar to alien flashlight view)
    Source has many effects that can make the screen change color, look blurred, etc. The player would be able to tell that he is in DI and perhaps it could have special sound effects too.
    The player can run along in the hallway where he was before he entered the DI. The player doesn't actually go anywhere, he just "changes". The player becomes like a ghost. He can still see marines and the map like normal, but he cannot interact with anything unless he leaves through another tube entrance/exit.

    This idea keeps alien movement different from marines completely. Aliens can use the DI to move around safely in their territory. It also works wonders for ambushing as a whole group of skulks could wait in the DI and then suddenly appear and attack without warning. It would also be a safe haven to escape to to heal. Or it could also be a prison if marines destroy your entrance.

    <!--coloro:#DDA0DD--><span style="color:#DDA0DD"><!--/coloro-->To sum things up: <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    Aliens are fast and should not have "Phase gates"
    Entering DI doesn't make aliens faster, but helps them move in their own territory.
    <!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Some Detail Points:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    -Gorges can make tube entrys anywhere on the DI and maybe can even make exits while inside the DI.(there could also be a limit on entrances)
    -Only small aliens can use the tubes.
    -Aliens can only enter through entrys that are built by a gorge.
    -Marines can destroy the entry points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    So basically when you “Enter” DI you go invisible? Maybe you could have a chamber that does this and maybe a few other things; you could call it a “sensory chamber”...
    ...I like the developer’s idea a lot more, at least they are really striving and trying to push the boundaries of what is possible.

    <!--quoteo(post=1664470:date=Dec 17 2007, 09:28 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Dec 17 2007, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I personally think it should be invisible, marines on alien territory should have to expect an attack from anywhere. For balance the rematerialize time would have to be a few seconds so this wouldn't be something to do in the middle of combat. It would be wait a couple seconds for the marine to pass while your teammates distract him from the front and then rematerialize...

    Probably the most flammable example you could use however I see your point. On marines there's on point of failure, the comm. On Kharaa anyone on the team can go gorge and cause problems for the team. Still, I don't think you should sacrifice the gameplay for possible llamas. An alien team that works together is a beautiful thing, and with a well admin'ed server 9 games out of ten will be llama-free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->This problem of what chamber to drop first is settled in many servers now by a simple vote system that stops players dropping a chamber unless it is the one that has been chosen in the vote.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> It works perfectly and stops people complaining when they are outvoted by the team. That and it is only 2 short votes each game, each lasting between 10 and 20 seconds. Way simpler and more Kharaa like than giving all this responsibility to one player who could be a complete n00b...
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1664441:date=Dec 18 2007, 08:20 AM:name=EmpV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EmpV @ Dec 18 2007, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1664441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that the idea of hallways whether made in map or dynamically is a <b>silly</b> idea. It is just <u>way too much work</u> for the Devs and will be limiting to gameplay as well as game performance.

    <!--coloro:#FFFF00--><span style="color:#FFFF00"><!--/coloro-->I would like to suggest another idea that has not been mentioned and is <b>much easier</b> to implement.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    While the idea that followed on from this statement was very interesting, I would disagree that an idea should be chucked out because at a guess it seems like it would be too much work or sounds like it might impact performance. These are the sorts of questions that need to be answered by research and experimentation, not by guesswork. When an average development team spends less than 10% of its time actually sitting at a computer and implementing code, it becomes very hard to judge the difficulty or size of a task by how much code it will require. I'm also not sure how this potential movement chamber replacement would limit gameplay when it is providing shortcuts to opposite sides of the map.

    That being said, your idea is an interesting one, one that isn't mutually exclusive to the idea of tunnels. For example, the system you suggested could be used for local area travel, and the tunnels for long distance travel. If the alien-comm does turn out to be some sort of DI-beast, then what you suggested could become its primary mode of movement (ie it surfaces to do commandery type stuff, and disperses back into DI to respond to danger).
  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?&#33; Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Members, Constellation
    I'm a bit undecided on whether I like the "Alien commander" and "tubes". As many others have mentioned before, part of NS' unique charm is its asymmetrical gameplay, and I do recall many ideas involving sort of a "commander" role for aliens being rejected in I&S. What inspired this sudden change of heart? I guess I could get behind this idea, as long as it didn't start infringing on the Marine commander's role. Alien hierarchy has always been more of a peer-to-peer thing than top-down, and I would hate to see that ruined.

    Tubes sound potentially fun, but with phase gates already around, it seems like they're gimmicky. Not to mention the aliens can already get around the map faster than marines. Couldn't we come up with something that achieves the same intended function, without emulating the PG too much? I know what I'd find awesome - a lifeform that serves as an APC and carriers aliens around in its armored interior, and is able to launch them into battle, like a catapult.
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