I don't quite understand what shoutcasts have you granted as racist, but i can agree with all the smurfs in HLTV nowadays, flaming goes all around. Then again, when there was those few HLTV's where you couldnt spam ######, a huge revolt ensued.
<!--quoteo(post=1639309:date=Jul 17 2007, 05:31 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jul 17 2007, 05:31 AM) [snapback]1639309[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'm a big fan of most of the shows you have listed. I like South Park in particular for its clever depiction of popular culture and the way it uses satire and exaggeration to make valid comments. I think it is great that such a show can still be shown on US TV. The day that shows like South Park get censored will be a sad day for freedom of speech, something I care very strongly about. I don't think any words or ideas should be banned from use in general, but private organisations get to set their own terms of behaviour and I personally am turned off from organisations that allow casual racism. I see no contradiction here. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have yet to see a racist remark that I thought was serious other than a former TeamUK and the spray they used in an official against Germany. Most of the time I see satire and exaggeration. Caps is a bit of a give away...
I am suprised at the amount of freedom that's allowed in the ensl forums though.
there are some tasty clanner stereotypes, such as:
americans still thinking that dropping the n-bomb is so shocking that it's funny (zzz, only south park can still make it funny)
english guys moaning when we get fragged (we're just bad ok)
finnish people never playing with the same nick for more than 2 hours (i had the whole of teamICE on my friends list at one point, but got so confused as i couldnt tell my mustafa dahlian's from my puppi's from my m-IRC warriors that i've removed everyone but scale and hopsu)
everyone hating the french because tutu really does whine that much
germans and russians having incredible e-stamina and being able to compete with koreans for game time
swedes moaning when they play on a non-swede server
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1639336:date=Jul 17 2007, 07:34 PM:name=sherpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sherpa @ Jul 17 2007, 07:34 PM) [snapback]1639336[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> norway is populated by people like monk and fana <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a compliment, right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1639305:date=Jul 17 2007, 11:30 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jul 17 2007, 11:30 AM) [snapback]1639305[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I probably came off more confrontational than I intended to be. You know I put a lot of weight on the competitive scene and do what I can to help it when I can. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No doubt, and "we" are grateful for that (the new hltv is awesome), but it does seem like whenever the competitive vs. pubber argument comes up, you always jump to the pubber side of the argument. I not saying that's how it is, but that's what it looks like.
PrefixÉirinn go BráchJoin Date: 2006-12-31Member: 59353Members, Constellation
If we want the scene to live we need to stop caring about winning so much.
We honestly need to do what lump is doing and make farm teams.
v3 before its inactivity used to hold pugs for pubbers, we did this ~4 times i think, it was really good, infact at least 2 from every game would try and join the comp scene after such a pug, if this was done on a grand scale there would be no issue at all.
Tbh i am regularly one of the clanners who whines on public alot, I only have one memory where i was really really beyond normally nice to my team on a public game, i suggested stuff calmly and it worked so good, we should do that more often.
Another thing that has added to ENSLs slow death is the lack of gather these days, I don't care what you say Fana, gathers where good at keeping the scene going, you could still play a comp game without having to have your clan on line and waiting 45min to get a clan to play.
And jiriki should be noted for his efforts to try and get pubbers into comp play, for example he sorted out the ensl public server which is a good way to attract pubbers.
I think farm teams and pugs is the best way to go tho, why did nL never make a farm team for instance? I think you guys would have made a good job of that. LTDM did it. In fact in my entire time of comp ns (not long really i know) i have only seen 2 farm teams. Two. LTDMs and 'is a pubstar'. Lumps current project will pay of well if he gets more pubbers involved. (Ill happily go on servers and ask pubbers if you wish lump)
I think ENSLs blueprint of 'GatherCups' really needs to be tested, its only ever been talked about,and i really think that could be interesting.
Can I ask a simple question? The Public and Comp scene couldn't have always been this divided? How did people let it get to the stage where most pubbers hate comp players? Is it due to community such as yoclan who tell ppl that all clanners are bad? or is it people like Smood who spam these forums with propaganda about how lame and racist etc clanners are, or is it the more likely event, that idiots like a.A ( no offense ) or Sublime who really make pubbers feel second class and give us such a bad stereotype? Was it the use of scripts which some pubbers see as hacks?
<!--quoteo(post=1639300:date=Jul 17 2007, 03:56 AM:name=Lump)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lump @ Jul 17 2007, 03:56 AM) [snapback]1639300[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I like how tommeki only considers prem games as worth while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they were the only competetive games of ns i ever had. they were also the only fun games of ns i ever had.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think he's talking a complete load of bollocks btw, even at a low level the organisation behind the rounds is far superior to public.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no it isnt. its practically nonexistant.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited July 2007
<!--QuoteBegin-"Tomekki"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Tomekki")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they were the only competetive games of ns i ever had. they were also the only fun games of ns i ever had. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you expect us to believe that you never had fun at NS at all until you played in a premier league clan. If you believe this yourself, then you are delusional. Sure, it may seem right now that in comparison to the pinnacle of your play, your early days of NS were crap, but at the time I bet you really enjoyed yourself. And you need to realise that the same is true for pubbers today. When you try on this condescending "I've seen the light, fear yee all who stand before me" attitude you just sound like a 13 year old who hasn't realised what the passage of time actually entails for the experience of any social outlet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> No doubt, and "we" are grateful for that (the new hltv is awesome), but it does seem like whenever the competitive vs. pubber argument comes up, you always jump to the pubber side of the argument. I not saying that's how it is, but that's what it looks like. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure that is fair. I have spoken in defence of the clan scene on countless occasions in public. I often voice up to speak against someone accusing a skilled clan player of cheating, I defend the practice of scripting in public. I also make it very clear that the types of HUD cusomisations that are prevalent within the clan scene are perfectly acceptable and that we, the dev team, keep them out of consistency checks by design. In fact, I usually get accused of being too supportive of clanners. I like to think that I am being objective and that my opinions come down on both sides of this discussion. When the discussion is about which form of play is better, I make no bones about expressing my preference for public play.
<!--quoteo(post=1639598:date=Jul 19 2007, 05:11 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jul 19 2007, 05:11 AM) [snapback]1639598[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So you expect us to believe that you never had fun at NS at all until you played in a premier league clan. If you believe this yourself, then you are delusional. Sure, it may seem right now that in comparison to the pinnacle of your play, your early days of NS were crap, but at the time I bet you really enjoyed yourself. And you need to realise that the same is true for pubbers today. When you try on this condescending "I've seen the light, fear yee all who stand before me" attitude you just sound like a 13 year old who hasn't realised what the passage of time actually entails for the experience of any social outlet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i never had the experience "wow, this round was actually really fun" until recently, like last winter or so. of course there were occasions that i mightve found fun or funny but overall it was either frustrating or boring or both. i played for like 2-3 years with this stone-age computer that could get 25 fps at best. it was ###### horrible. then i upgraded and started playing in all kinds of teams and got to hear more shouting than i think i ever will again in my life. the only reason i sticked around was cause i wanted to get good. you could see in every good player that they were enjoying the game.
also, thanks for the analysis about my attitude but you missed. im not trying to convert anyone, or be concescending (at least in this case). if you have fun playing with your pub mates on your pub server then by all means continue doing so. but please excuse me for wanting a little more dedication and socialization and more good games and stuff. (oh that mustve sounded too concescending aswell i suppose. ###### me)
as for the light, maybe its as moomin put it: theres only so much you can do in ns before you hit the ceiling. perhaps this game would never even have had the chance of going cpl
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited July 2007
I don't believe you.
I think you've just forgotten how much fun NS was for you in the beginning. It's like an ex-girlfriend, you only remember her bad points after you dump her.
Also, I don't look to socialise when playing games. Sure, I like my gaming experience to be social to a degree, and I have made a few friendships over the years, but I don't go online to satisfy the need for human company.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> as for the light, maybe its as moomin put it: theres only so much you can do in ns before you hit the ceiling. perhaps this game would never even have had the chance of going cpl <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A game doesn't need to be in the CPL for a clan to work. And the lack of CPL participation is not at the core of the high player turnover Lump is discussing here.
<!--quoteo(post=1639599:date=Jul 19 2007, 06:33 AM:name=TOmekki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TOmekki @ Jul 19 2007, 06:33 AM) [snapback]1639599[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> i never had the experience "wow, this round was actually really fun" until recently, like last winter or so. of course there were occasions that i mightve found fun or funny but overall it was either frustrating or boring or both. i played for like 2-3 years with this stone-age computer that could get 25 fps at best. it was ###### horrible. then i upgraded and started playing in all kinds of teams and got to hear more shouting than i think i ever will again in my life. the only reason i sticked around was cause i wanted to get good. you could see in every good player that they were enjoying the game. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not very good and I still find NS entertaining. I do find competitive play more fun only because everyone knows what they are going to do. Then again I don't find the waiting an hour to scrim to be very fun. There are plenty of times when I've pubbed where I kind of grit my teeth but I even find those moments to be fun.
I think one of the key things as far as making a clan work is to get 10+ semi-active people and hope that 6 of them can play on match day. Also make sure your matches end before 10:00 PM so no one misses Battlestar Galactica.
<!--quoteo(post=1639600:date=Jul 19 2007, 05:41 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jul 19 2007, 05:41 AM) [snapback]1639600[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think you've just forgotten how much fun NS was for you in the beginning. It's like an ex-girlfriend, you only remember her bad points after you dump her.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> no. it was a new experience, it was interesting, it seemed like something that had real depth in it. i remember tons of amusing occasions, but they dont always guarantee a good round. the only rounds where i actually enjoyed every second were with saunamen (its third incarnation to be specific).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I don't look to socialise when playing games. Sure, I like my gaming experience to be social to a degree, and I have made a few friendships over the years, but I don't go online to satisfy the need for human company.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> hah hah. and youre telling me i sound condescending. part of all the clan thing is that you goof around and try to entertain one another when youre waiting for the other team to get ready. im not saying the relationships i had with my team mates were more or even as important as real life friends, but they were pretty funny guys. and i had fun playing with them, instead of every single other team ever (pubs, other clans, gathers, you name it).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A game doesn't need to be in the CPL for a clan to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> did i ever say that
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2007
<!--quoteo(post=1639598:date=Jul 19 2007, 12:11 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jul 19 2007, 12:11 PM) [snapback]1639598[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> So you expect us to believe that you never had fun at NS at all until you played in a premier league clan. If you believe this yourself, then you are delusional. Sure, it may seem right now that in comparison to the pinnacle of your play, your early days of NS were crap, but at the time I bet you really enjoyed yourself. And you need to realise that the same is true for pubbers today. When you try on this condescending "I've seen the light, fear yee all who stand before me" attitude you just sound like a 13 year old who hasn't realised what the passage of time actually entails for the experience of any social outlet. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not everyone started out as a pubber. I would never have even touched this game if it wasn't for the fact that a bunch of my real life friends started a team and asked me to come play with them. You should know better than to crystal ball like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1639598:date=Jul 19 2007, 12:11 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jul 19 2007, 12:11 PM) [snapback]1639598[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> When the discussion is about which form of play is better, I make no bones about expressing my preference for public play. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yet you have no problems bringing the flamethrower when "we" talk about our preference of competitive, even though we have a lot of experience with both, while your experience with competitive is very limited.
<!--quoteo(post=1639546:date=Jul 18 2007, 11:16 PM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prefix @ Jul 18 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]1639546[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If we want the scene to live we need to stop caring about winning so much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you stop caring about winning the point of comp play is defeated. If you say "we need to stop caring about winning so much, or organized play will die" you're still likely to kill off the community entirely because no one cares about what they're working so hard to accomplish.
The point is to solve this problem by introducing players into the environment, rather than trying to weed them out with immediate impossibly-high-level tournament play.
<!--quoteo(post=1639546:date=Jul 18 2007, 11:16 PM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prefix @ Jul 18 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]1639546[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We honestly need to do what lump is doing and make farm teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be nice. I'm sure there are more interested players in the community, but without captains, I can't do anything for them.
leading isn't as important as finding games.. in a losing situation someone will take charge anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1642370:date=Aug 6 2007, 11:08 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Aug 6 2007, 11:08 AM) [snapback]1642370[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If you stop caring about winning the point of comp play is defeated. If you say "we need to stop caring about winning so much, or organized play will die" you're still likely to kill off the community entirely because no one cares about what they're working so hard to accomplish<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hate to be a nag but you're talking to yourself mate.
He didn't say anything like that, the words "so much" were used in the sentence.. you may need to look them up and figgure out a meaning before posting pointless replies.
I hate to be a nag but a sentence should generally start with a capital letter and end with a punctuation mark, groups of punctuation marks should be in multiples of three or in singles, and 'figgure' isn't a word.
<!--quoteo(post=1642604:date=Aug 7 2007, 07:36 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Aug 7 2007, 07:36 PM) [snapback]1642604[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I hate to be a nag but a sentence should generally start with a capital letter and end with a punctuation mark, groups of punctuation marks should be in multiples of three or in singles, and 'figgure' isn't a word. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hate to be a nag, but a sentence should generally start with a capital letter and end with a punctuation mark. Groups of punctuation marks should be in multiples of three or in singles. "figgure" isn't a word.
That's a stylistic issue, the solution to which has varied alot throughout the history of modern English literature. I for example have learned my written English by reading really old and boring books. In most of those books sentences that are long and overly complicated exist in abundance.
First off: i have not played Competative NS. i am strickly pub here. however I played in a clan for Day of Defeat a while back so I am assuming the feel is similar to here.
The feel of a clan game where you are part of a TEAM all working together to achieve goals and objectives is very satisfying and also much more adrenaline intensive. The organisation level is set at a MUCH higher bar. I find it amusing that there is a great deal of "racist" and "flaming" chatter on Comms during a match. We always kept such to a minimum to facilitate communication. if it is happening out of scrim... Why? I understand that there are hotheads out there and also uneducated folks that believe they have the only opinion that matters but still. I have not bothered to try and seriously work on my NS skills to competative level for several reasons. Mostly time but also anytime I see ANY mention of clan versus Pub players or play it is instant flamewar. I enjoy both types of play. I agree that clan play is an entirely different kind of play expirence from PUB or even pick-up-play (which is NOT the same). I agre with Puzl in that I choose to not look into a clan that plays competatively because of what I see as a culture that allows (if not encourages) such commentary. Players that spout such are damaging to themselves, the clan, and the servers they like to play on because they will drive away folks like myself and Puzl that have no interest in hearing what they have to say. Yes I could mute them; Why should I? i will simply find somewhere else to play. If I DID join up with a clan and they had a player or 2 that insulted me constantly for not doing what THEY thought I should be doing I would definetly want to mute them. however on a 6v6 match muting team mates is a good way to get kicked from the team in not the clan.
We had several members that lost their tempers regularly that we forced to stop spouting off and control themselves more. Guess what... THEY GOT BETTER!
Either way, clanners must understand that If a pubber comes by and the clanners are all insulting each other constantly and ripping on the pubbers poor skills. How long do you think they will hang around unless they know someone else in the group? Not long you can be sure. i understand that it is all in fun but to an outsider it apppears to be fairly brutal and mean spirited. Dont get me wrong we had plenty of such in my clan but we were VERY good about keeping it among ourselves and corrected each other publicly anytime one of us started ripping on a pub'er. As such we were fairly popular as a pub (which also helped recruiting).
If you want to attract myself and others like me to Clan play. Calmly tell what I am doing wrong and why. Call me a ************ and I will ignore (mute) you no matter how valid a point you have. It's not about how right or wrong what you are doing is. It's about how outsiders perceive it. Does that make sense?
<!--quoteo(post=1642844:date=Aug 8 2007, 06:58 PM:name=BonesX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BonesX @ Aug 8 2007, 06:58 PM) [snapback]1642844[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> If you want to attract myself and others like me to Clan play. Calmly tell what I am doing wrong and why. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you don't realize however, is that you are in the minority. Many experienced players are simply turned off of giving advice because the VAST MAJORITY of pub players that I (and others who) try to give hints to react harshly to it, like you're insulting them or something.
Example:
A couple days ago there was a guy who was clearly a new comm. It was only 4 marines vs. bots, so good time to learn right? I asked "are you new to comming?" and he asked if I wanted to comm, to which I replied, "doesn't matter to me if you're a new comm, you gotta learn sometime."
A few minutes later he starts scanning hives to see if they're dropped, so I say "to save obs energy, you can find the hive by setting way points on them" and he cuts me off immediately saying things like "you elitest ######, if you want to comm then go ahead" and I responded with "You keep comming. I don't mind that you're a new comm. I'm just trying to offer you some advice" at which point he tells me to go ###### myself and he hops out of the chair and insults me some more.
When this sort of behavior is the norm (although not to this extreme ususally), what do you want? The result is that experienced players trying to be helpful get so disgusted with the backlash from people who seriously need help that they simply stop with the trying to offer help.
I think it's that people just want to play the game and can't comprehend that they're doing it wrong.. I mean it's a game, how can you do it wrong right? Anyone telling them they're playing a game wrong must just be some ###### I guess... I really don't know what goes through their head, but I think it'd be a good psychology research project.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I bet that works both ways. Not to defend his rudeness, there really is no excuse for it, but maye he had been treated badly under similiar circumstances before. The important thing is this: If you guys want to bring people into the competitive fold and if you agree that politely helping them to learn is a good way to do it, then you have to accept that in your struggle to educate people you will meet people who do not want to accept your help and who reactly rudely to it.
BTW, I also think it would be a good psychology research project to understand why some people fail to comprehend that there is more than one motive to play a game. Not everyone wants to be the best they can be. Many of you dismiss them as scrubs, and the convenient label serves to build a new negative stereotype, but all you do is reinforce the division and undermine your cause.
And you say that ths behaviour is the norm, yet I can name several people who, after all these years, continue to be polite and helpful, and learn to ignore those who don't want their advice. It does work, maybe not at the rate you would like, but what you gonna do? Get mad at people?
<!--quoteo(post=1642938:date=Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM) [snapback]1642938[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I bet that works both ways. Not to defend his rudeness, there really is no excuse for it, but maye he had been treated badly under similiar circumstances before. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may very well have been the case. Although I thought that even after his initial rudeness and my continuing to be polite he would have saw that I was acting with good intentions.
<!--quoteo(post=1642938:date=Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM) [snapback]1642938[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> The important thing is this: If you guys want to bring people into the competitive fold and if you agree that politely helping them to learn is a good way to do it, then you have to accept that in your struggle to educate people you will meet people who do not want to accept your help and who reactly rudely to it. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with you on this. But teaching people the game isn't enough to get them into organized play. Radix has been trying to teach and get people into organized play, but I think just getting the word out that there is a place to go to be taught the finer details of NS is a difficult job.
I also can't just go into a server and start asking random people if they want to join competitive play because that's basically recruiting, which is usually looked down upon by server admins.
There are some in the competitive community who I firmly believe want the competitive community to die, otherwise they wouldn't do so much to destroy it. They are the ones giving the competitive community a bad name by purposely act as annoying and rude as possible. They too would probably make a good psychology project.
<!--quoteo(post=1642938:date=Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM) [snapback]1642938[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> BTW, I also think it would be a good psychology research project to understand why some people fail to comprehend that there is more than one motive to play a game. Not everyone wants to be the best they can be. Many of you dismiss them as scrubs, and the convenient label serves to build a new negative stereotype, but all you do is reinforce the division and undermine your cause. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I think it's that people just want to play the game and can't comprehend that they're doing it wrong.. I mean it's a game, how can you do it wrong right? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I said that, I was actually looking at it from their point of view. They look at it as a game where they just jump in and shoot aliens or bite marines and to them that's all the game consists of and to them it doesn't need to be anything more because they enjoy playing it that way.
I'd also like to point out that I've met several people who have very willingly took my advice and have become understudies of sorts, but this is quite rare.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
With this type of social problem, I think progress for your objectives will usually be small in comparison to the noise of rejection. It takes a strong character to remain composed and focused in the face of a general rejection, but I still applaud anyone who still continues to help those new to the game.
The point I am making is that for every experienced player sick of people who rudely reject an offer of help there <i>might</i> well be an inexperienced player sick of people insulting him for his lack of experience.
In particular, I really feel sorry for new commanders, who get torrents of abuse for being anything less than optimal in their decisions. You get a guy electrifying an RT or building a TF in base and people immediately start to verbally abuse him and vote him out of the chair.
Once I saw a guy on a combat server who tried to bhop, and I told him how and taught him while the game was going. He learned how to after ten minutes.
Then there were those two or three players from a still popular euro public server who I helped to learn how to bhop.
That's twice I get to help people improve during four years of playing NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1642934:date=Aug 9 2007, 08:34 AM:name=asmodee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(asmodee @ Aug 9 2007, 08:34 AM) [snapback]1642934[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> What you don't realize however, is that you are in the minority. Many experienced players are simply turned off of giving advice because the VAST MAJORITY of pub players that I (and others who) try to give hints to react harshly to it, like you're insulting them or something.
When this sort of behavior is the norm (although not to this extreme ususally), what do you want? The result is that experienced players trying to be helpful get so disgusted with the backlash from people who seriously need help that they simply stop with the trying to offer help.
I think it's that people just want to play the game and can't comprehend that they're doing it wrong.. I mean it's a game, how can you do it wrong right? Anyone telling them they're playing a game wrong must just be some ###### I guess... I really don't know what goes through their head, but I think it'd be a good psychology research project. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are correct on so many levels. I do a fair amount of teaching of the nubs that wander into our servers. (especially since we run a marine bot server as 1 of our 3 servers). The thing you all need to remember is that the general public is full of all types of people. Like I have said many times the Gene Pool has a shallow end and a deep end. I ALWAYS start off by asking if they want advice or help. Tell them to ask questions, ect. If they say yes, go for it. The thing is that although the Pubs do not need to Clans to enjoy the game, The CLANS need the pubs to find new recruits. Competative Players are the elite of the game. You all have taken the game to the next level and this is very very cool. But not all of us need to take it to that level. I can enjoy a game of vollyball or football with my friends w/o being in the Olympics or the NFL. I'm happy playing at the level I'm at. Competative play would be a blast; I know this! However, i do not have the time to commit and it would be unfair of me to pull your gameplay down to my level.
Besides, who says the way that many pubbers play is wrong? yes, dropping WP's on the hives would show where the hives were up but does it matter? There are several levels of play for NS. using WP's like that is a very advanced technice that would matter in a clan match because clans would react to a ping. It's rare to see that reaction in a pub game so whether or not we ping is irrelevant. In the pubs if the comm is using up the ping frequently he could drop anothor Obs. they have independant E pools so he gets 2x Obs Energy. Keep em in different places and you are less likely to lose MT too.
I would say that (for example) Running is lvl 1 for movement. level 2 would be wall strafing - easy to do slight increase in speed. lvl 3 is along the lines of B-hop and stutter walking to stay silent. Really this level is only neccesary in a competative match. For those types of play it is neccesary. To tell us we are doing it WRONG is insulting. yes, there is a better way to do it but at the level we play at it is alot of extra work for very little reward.
That said, In my expirence simply asking someone if the want advice goes a long way.
BTW if you see me in game somewhere... I'm generally always open to advice. Howver, If I think it is irrelevant I will tell you. It's a two way street.
<!--quoteo(post=1642973:date=Aug 9 2007, 03:39 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Aug 9 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]1642973[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Once I saw a guy on a combat server who tried to bhop, and I told him how and taught him while the game was going. He learned how to after ten minutes.
Then there were those two or three players from a still popular euro public server who I helped to learn how to bhop.
That's twice I get to help people improve during four years of playing NS. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I probably teach more people to bhop than I do anything else, not that teaching to bhop is all that frequent.
I run a server that plays ze_marinebhop 24x7 (unless we're using it for a scrim). Often I'll be practicing on there and sometimes people will join who have no clue to bhop and they ask how to do the first jump, so I spend like 10 mins explaining and watching them and some just give up, but others manage to get it.
For some I change the map to ns_bhop so I can spec them properly.
A couple of times I've been asked in game how to bhop and I tell them to add me to friends and follow me to my server to learn.
Comments
I'm a big fan of most of the shows you have listed. I like South Park in particular for its clever depiction of popular culture and the way it uses satire and exaggeration to make valid comments. I think it is great that such a show can still be shown on US TV. The day that shows like South Park get censored will be a sad day for freedom of speech, something I care very strongly about. I don't think any words or ideas should be banned from use in general, but private organisations get to set their own terms of behaviour and I personally am turned off from organisations that allow casual racism. I see no contradiction here.
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I have yet to see a racist remark that I thought was serious other than a former TeamUK and the spray they used in an official against Germany. Most of the time I see satire and exaggeration. Caps is a bit of a give away...
I am suprised at the amount of freedom that's allowed in the ensl forums though.
americans still thinking that dropping the n-bomb is so shocking that it's funny (zzz, only south park can still make it funny)
english guys moaning when we get fragged (we're just bad ok)
finnish people never playing with the same nick for more than 2 hours (i had the whole of teamICE on my friends list at one point, but got so confused as i couldnt tell my mustafa dahlian's from my puppi's from my m-IRC warriors that i've removed everyone but scale and hopsu)
everyone hating the french because tutu really does whine that much
germans and russians having incredible e-stamina and being able to compete with koreans for game time
swedes moaning when they play on a non-swede server
norway is populated by people like monk and fana
YOUR TURN
norway is populated by people like monk and fana
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That's a compliment, right? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/fade.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::fade::" border="0" alt="fade.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1639305:date=Jul 17 2007, 11:30 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jul 17 2007, 11:30 AM) [snapback]1639305[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I probably came off more confrontational than I intended to be. You know I put a lot of weight on the competitive scene and do what I can to help it when I can.
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No doubt, and "we" are grateful for that (the new hltv is awesome), but it does seem like whenever the competitive vs. pubber argument comes up, you always jump to the pubber side of the argument. I not saying that's how it is, but that's what it looks like.
HMMMM
We honestly need to do what lump is doing and make farm teams.
v3 before its inactivity used to hold pugs for pubbers, we did this ~4 times i think, it was really good, infact at least 2 from every game would try and join the comp scene after such a pug, if this was done on a grand scale there would be no issue at all.
Tbh i am regularly one of the clanners who whines on public alot, I only have one memory where i was really really beyond normally nice to my team on a public game, i suggested stuff calmly and it worked so good, we should do that more often.
Another thing that has added to ENSLs slow death is the lack of gather these days, I don't care what you say Fana, gathers where good at keeping the scene going, you could still play a comp game without having to have your clan on line and waiting 45min to get a clan to play.
And jiriki should be noted for his efforts to try and get pubbers into comp play, for example he sorted out the ensl public server which is a good way to attract pubbers.
I think farm teams and pugs is the best way to go tho, why did nL never make a farm team for instance? I think you guys would have made a good job of that. LTDM did it. In fact in my entire time of comp ns (not long really i know) i have only seen 2 farm teams. Two. LTDMs and 'is a pubstar'. Lumps current project will pay of well if he gets more pubbers involved. (Ill happily go on servers and ask pubbers if you wish lump)
I think ENSLs blueprint of 'GatherCups' really needs to be tested, its only ever been talked about,and i really think that could be interesting.
Can I ask a simple question?
The Public and Comp scene couldn't have always been this divided? How did people let it get to the stage where most pubbers hate comp players? Is it due to community such as yoclan who tell ppl that all clanners are bad? or is it people like Smood who spam these forums with propaganda about how lame and racist etc clanners are, or is it the more likely event, that idiots like a.A ( no offense ) or Sublime who really make pubbers feel second class and give us such a bad stereotype? Was it the use of scripts which some pubbers see as hacks?
x-man
I like how tommeki only considers prem games as worth while.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they were the only competetive games of ns i ever had. they were also the only fun games of ns i ever had.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think he's talking a complete load of bollocks btw, even at a low level the organisation behind the rounds is far superior to public.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no it isnt. its practically nonexistant.
they were the only competetive games of ns i ever had. they were also the only fun games of ns i ever had.
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So you expect us to believe that you never had fun at NS at all until you played in a premier league clan. If you believe this yourself, then you are delusional. Sure, it may seem right now that in comparison to the pinnacle of your play, your early days of NS were crap, but at the time I bet you really enjoyed yourself. And you need to realise that the same is true for pubbers today. When you try on this condescending "I've seen the light, fear yee all who stand before me" attitude you just sound like a 13 year old who hasn't realised what the passage of time actually entails for the experience of any social outlet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
No doubt, and "we" are grateful for that (the new hltv is awesome), but it does seem like whenever the competitive vs. pubber argument comes up, you always jump to the pubber side of the argument. I not saying that's how it is, but that's what it looks like.
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I'm not sure that is fair. I have spoken in defence of the clan scene on countless occasions in public. I often voice up to speak against someone accusing a skilled clan player of cheating, I defend the practice of scripting in public. I also make it very clear that the types of HUD cusomisations that are prevalent within the clan scene are perfectly acceptable and that we, the dev team, keep them out of consistency checks by design. In fact, I usually get accused of being too supportive of clanners. I like to think that I am being objective and that my opinions come down on both sides of this discussion. When the discussion is about which form of play is better, I make no bones about expressing my preference for public play.
So you expect us to believe that you never had fun at NS at all until you played in a premier league clan. If you believe this yourself, then you are delusional. Sure, it may seem right now that in comparison to the pinnacle of your play, your early days of NS were crap, but at the time I bet you really enjoyed yourself. And you need to realise that the same is true for pubbers today. When you try on this condescending "I've seen the light, fear yee all who stand before me" attitude you just sound like a 13 year old who hasn't realised what the passage of time actually entails for the experience of any social outlet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i never had the experience "wow, this round was actually really fun" until recently, like last winter or so. of course there were occasions that i mightve found fun or funny but overall it was either frustrating or boring or both. i played for like 2-3 years with this stone-age computer that could get 25 fps at best. it was ###### horrible. then i upgraded and started playing in all kinds of teams and got to hear more shouting than i think i ever will again in my life. the only reason i sticked around was cause i wanted to get good. you could see in every good player that they were enjoying the game.
also, thanks for the analysis about my attitude but you missed. im not trying to convert anyone, or be concescending (at least in this case). if you have fun playing with your pub mates on your pub server then by all means continue doing so. but please excuse me for wanting a little more dedication and socialization and more good games and stuff. (oh that mustve sounded too concescending aswell i suppose. ###### me)
as for the light, maybe its as moomin put it: theres only so much you can do in ns before you hit the ceiling. perhaps this game would never even have had the chance of going cpl
I think you've just forgotten how much fun NS was for you in the beginning. It's like an ex-girlfriend, you only remember her bad points after you dump her.
Also, I don't look to socialise when playing games. Sure, I like my gaming experience to be social to a degree, and I have made a few friendships over the years, but I don't go online to satisfy the need for human company.
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as for the light, maybe its as moomin put it: theres only so much you can do in ns before you hit the ceiling. perhaps this game would never even have had the chance of going cpl
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A game doesn't need to be in the CPL for a clan to work. And the lack of CPL participation is not at the core of the high player turnover Lump is discussing here.
i never had the experience "wow, this round was actually really fun" until recently, like last winter or so. of course there were occasions that i mightve found fun or funny but overall it was either frustrating or boring or both. i played for like 2-3 years with this stone-age computer that could get 25 fps at best. it was ###### horrible. then i upgraded and started playing in all kinds of teams and got to hear more shouting than i think i ever will again in my life. the only reason i sticked around was cause i wanted to get good. you could see in every good player that they were enjoying the game.
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I'm not very good and I still find NS entertaining. I do find competitive play more fun only because everyone knows what they are going to do. Then again I don't find the waiting an hour to scrim to be very fun. There are plenty of times when I've pubbed where I kind of grit my teeth but I even find those moments to be fun.
I think one of the key things as far as making a clan work is to get 10+ semi-active people and hope that 6 of them can play on match day. Also make sure your matches end before 10:00 PM so no one misses Battlestar Galactica.
I think you've just forgotten how much fun NS was for you in the beginning. It's like an ex-girlfriend, you only remember her bad points after you dump her.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no. it was a new experience, it was interesting, it seemed like something that had real depth in it. i remember tons of amusing occasions, but they dont always guarantee a good round. the only rounds where i actually enjoyed every second were with saunamen (its third incarnation to be specific).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, I don't look to socialise when playing games. Sure, I like my gaming experience to be social to a degree, and I have made a few friendships over the years, but I don't go online to satisfy the need for human company.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hah hah. and youre telling me i sound condescending. part of all the clan thing is that you goof around and try to entertain one another when youre waiting for the other team to get ready. im not saying the relationships i had with my team mates were more or even as important as real life friends, but they were pretty funny guys. and i had fun playing with them, instead of every single other team ever (pubs, other clans, gathers, you name it).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A game doesn't need to be in the CPL for a clan to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
did i ever say that
So you expect us to believe that you never had fun at NS at all until you played in a premier league clan. If you believe this yourself, then you are delusional. Sure, it may seem right now that in comparison to the pinnacle of your play, your early days of NS were crap, but at the time I bet you really enjoyed yourself. And you need to realise that the same is true for pubbers today. When you try on this condescending "I've seen the light, fear yee all who stand before me" attitude you just sound like a 13 year old who hasn't realised what the passage of time actually entails for the experience of any social outlet.
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Not everyone started out as a pubber. I would never have even touched this game if it wasn't for the fact that a bunch of my real life friends started a team and asked me to come play with them. You should know better than to crystal ball like that.
<!--quoteo(post=1639598:date=Jul 19 2007, 12:11 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Jul 19 2007, 12:11 PM) [snapback]1639598[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
When the discussion is about which form of play is better, I make no bones about expressing my preference for public play.
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Yet you have no problems bringing the flamethrower when "we" talk about our preference of competitive, even though we have a lot of experience with both, while your experience with competitive is very limited.
If you stop caring about winning the point of comp play is defeated. If you say "we need to stop caring about winning so much, or organized play will die" you're still likely to kill off the community entirely because no one cares about what they're working so hard to accomplish.
The point is to solve this problem by introducing players into the environment, rather than trying to weed them out with immediate impossibly-high-level tournament play.
<!--quoteo(post=1639546:date=Jul 18 2007, 11:16 PM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prefix @ Jul 18 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]1639546[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We honestly need to do what lump is doing and make farm teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be nice. I'm sure there are more interested players in the community, but without captains, I can't do anything for them.
I'm asking about the difference between scrims and competent, skilled pub play.
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in america if you can own it up on the <BAD> server then you can play competitively
<!--quoteo(post=1642370:date=Aug 6 2007, 11:08 AM:name=Radix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Radix @ Aug 6 2007, 11:08 AM) [snapback]1642370[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
If you stop caring about winning the point of comp play is defeated. If you say "we need to stop caring about winning so much, or organized play will die" you're still likely to kill off the community entirely because no one cares about what they're working so hard to accomplish<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hate to be a nag but you're talking to yourself mate.
He didn't say anything like that, the words "so much" were used in the sentence.. you may need to look them up and figgure out a meaning before posting pointless replies.
I hate to be a nag but a sentence should generally start with a capital letter and end with a punctuation mark, groups of punctuation marks should be in multiples of three or in singles, and 'figgure' isn't a word.
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I hate to be a nag, but a sentence should generally start with a capital letter and end with a punctuation mark. Groups of punctuation marks should be in multiples of three or in singles. "figgure" isn't a word.
Can I suggest you get back on topic.
The feel of a clan game where you are part of a TEAM all working together to achieve goals and objectives is very satisfying and also much more adrenaline intensive. The organisation level is set at a MUCH higher bar. I find it amusing that there is a great deal of "racist" and "flaming" chatter on Comms during a match. We always kept such to a minimum to facilitate communication. if it is happening out of scrim... Why? I understand that there are hotheads out there and also uneducated folks that believe they have the only opinion that matters but still. I have not bothered to try and seriously work on my NS skills to competative level for several reasons. Mostly time but also anytime I see ANY mention of clan versus Pub players or play it is instant flamewar. I enjoy both types of play. I agree that clan play is an entirely different kind of play expirence from PUB or even pick-up-play (which is NOT the same). I agre with Puzl in that I choose to not look into a clan that plays competatively because of what I see as a culture that allows (if not encourages) such commentary. Players that spout such are damaging to themselves, the clan, and the servers they like to play on because they will drive away folks like myself and Puzl that have no interest in hearing what they have to say. Yes I could mute them; Why should I? i will simply find somewhere else to play. If I DID join up with a clan and they had a player or 2 that insulted me constantly for not doing what THEY thought I should be doing I would definetly want to mute them. however on a 6v6 match muting team mates is a good way to get kicked from the team in not the clan.
We had several members that lost their tempers regularly that we forced to stop spouting off and control themselves more. Guess what... THEY GOT BETTER!
Either way, clanners must understand that If a pubber comes by and the clanners are all insulting each other constantly and ripping on the pubbers poor skills. How long do you think they will hang around unless they know someone else in the group? Not long you can be sure. i understand that it is all in fun but to an outsider it apppears to be fairly brutal and mean spirited. Dont get me wrong we had plenty of such in my clan but we were VERY good about keeping it among ourselves and corrected each other publicly anytime one of us started ripping on a pub'er. As such we were fairly popular as a pub (which also helped recruiting).
If you want to attract myself and others like me to Clan play. Calmly tell what I am doing wrong and why. Call me a ************ and I will ignore (mute) you no matter how valid a point you have. It's not about how right or wrong what you are doing is. It's about how outsiders perceive it. Does that make sense?
If you want to attract myself and others like me to Clan play. Calmly tell what I am doing wrong and why. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you don't realize however, is that you are in the minority. Many experienced players are simply turned off of giving advice because the VAST MAJORITY of pub players that I (and others who) try to give hints to react harshly to it, like you're insulting them or something.
Example:
A couple days ago there was a guy who was clearly a new comm. It was only 4 marines vs. bots, so good time to learn right? I asked "are you new to comming?" and he asked if I wanted to comm, to which I replied, "doesn't matter to me if you're a new comm, you gotta learn sometime."
A few minutes later he starts scanning hives to see if they're dropped, so I say "to save obs energy, you can find the hive by setting way points on them" and he cuts me off immediately saying things like "you elitest ######, if you want to comm then go ahead" and I responded with "You keep comming. I don't mind that you're a new comm. I'm just trying to offer you some advice" at which point he tells me to go ###### myself and he hops out of the chair and insults me some more.
When this sort of behavior is the norm (although not to this extreme ususally), what do you want? The result is that experienced players trying to be helpful get so disgusted with the backlash from people who seriously need help that they simply stop with the trying to offer help.
I think it's that people just want to play the game and can't comprehend that they're doing it wrong.. I mean it's a game, how can you do it wrong right? Anyone telling them they're playing a game wrong must just be some ###### I guess... I really don't know what goes through their head, but I think it'd be a good psychology research project.
BTW, I also think it would be a good psychology research project to understand why some people fail to comprehend that there is more than one motive to play a game. Not everyone wants to be the best they can be. Many of you dismiss them as scrubs, and the convenient label serves to build a new negative stereotype, but all you do is reinforce the division and undermine your cause.
And you say that ths behaviour is the norm, yet I can name several people who, after all these years, continue to be polite and helpful, and learn to ignore those who don't want their advice. It does work, maybe not at the rate you would like, but what you gonna do? Get mad at people?
I bet that works both ways. Not to defend his rudeness, there really is no excuse for it, but maye he had been treated badly under similiar circumstances before.
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This may very well have been the case. Although I thought that even after his initial rudeness and my continuing to be polite he would have saw that I was acting with good intentions.
<!--quoteo(post=1642938:date=Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM) [snapback]1642938[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
The important thing is this: If you guys want to bring people into the competitive fold and if you agree that politely helping them to learn is a good way to do it, then you have to accept that in your struggle to educate people you will meet people who do not want to accept your help and who reactly rudely to it.
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I completely agree with you on this. But teaching people the game isn't enough to get them into organized play. Radix has been trying to teach and get people into organized play, but I think just getting the word out that there is a place to go to be taught the finer details of NS is a difficult job.
I also can't just go into a server and start asking random people if they want to join competitive play because that's basically recruiting, which is usually looked down upon by server admins.
There are some in the competitive community who I firmly believe want the competitive community to die, otherwise they wouldn't do so much to destroy it. They are the ones giving the competitive community a bad name by purposely act as annoying and rude as possible. They too would probably make a good psychology project.
<!--quoteo(post=1642938:date=Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(puzl @ Aug 9 2007, 09:21 AM) [snapback]1642938[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
BTW, I also think it would be a good psychology research project to understand why some people fail to comprehend that there is more than one motive to play a game. Not everyone wants to be the best they can be. Many of you dismiss them as scrubs, and the convenient label serves to build a new negative stereotype, but all you do is reinforce the division and undermine your cause.
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<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I think it's that people just want to play the game and can't comprehend that they're doing it wrong.. I mean it's a game, how can you do it wrong right?
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When I said that, I was actually looking at it from their point of view. They look at it as a game where they just jump in and shoot aliens or bite marines and to them that's all the game consists of and to them it doesn't need to be anything more because they enjoy playing it that way.
I'd also like to point out that I've met several people who have very willingly took my advice and have become understudies of sorts, but this is quite rare.
The point I am making is that for every experienced player sick of people who rudely reject an offer of help there <i>might</i> well be an inexperienced player sick of people insulting him for his lack of experience.
In particular, I really feel sorry for new commanders, who get torrents of abuse for being anything less than optimal in their decisions. You get a guy electrifying an RT or building a TF in base and people immediately start to verbally abuse him and vote him out of the chair.
Then there were those two or three players from a still popular euro public server who I helped to learn how to bhop.
That's twice I get to help people improve during four years of playing NS.
What you don't realize however, is that you are in the minority. Many experienced players are simply turned off of giving advice because the VAST MAJORITY of pub players that I (and others who) try to give hints to react harshly to it, like you're insulting them or something.
When this sort of behavior is the norm (although not to this extreme ususally), what do you want? The result is that experienced players trying to be helpful get so disgusted with the backlash from people who seriously need help that they simply stop with the trying to offer help.
I think it's that people just want to play the game and can't comprehend that they're doing it wrong.. I mean it's a game, how can you do it wrong right? Anyone telling them they're playing a game wrong must just be some ###### I guess... I really don't know what goes through their head, but I think it'd be a good psychology research project.
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You are correct on so many levels. I do a fair amount of teaching of the nubs that wander into our servers. (especially since we run a marine bot server as 1 of our 3 servers). The thing you all need to remember is that the general public is full of all types of people. Like I have said many times the Gene Pool has a shallow end and a deep end. I ALWAYS start off by asking if they want advice or help. Tell them to ask questions, ect. If they say yes, go for it. The thing is that although the Pubs do not need to Clans to enjoy the game, The CLANS need the pubs to find new recruits. Competative Players are the elite of the game. You all have taken the game to the next level and this is very very cool. But not all of us need to take it to that level. I can enjoy a game of vollyball or football with my friends w/o being in the Olympics or the NFL. I'm happy playing at the level I'm at. Competative play would be a blast; I know this! However, i do not have the time to commit and it would be unfair of me to pull your gameplay down to my level.
Besides, who says the way that many pubbers play is wrong? yes, dropping WP's on the hives would show where the hives were up but does it matter? There are several levels of play for NS. using WP's like that is a very advanced technice that would matter in a clan match because clans would react to a ping. It's rare to see that reaction in a pub game so whether or not we ping is irrelevant. In the pubs if the comm is using up the ping frequently he could drop anothor Obs. they have independant E pools so he gets 2x Obs Energy. Keep em in different places and you are less likely to lose MT too.
I would say that (for example) Running is lvl 1 for movement.
level 2 would be wall strafing - easy to do slight increase in speed.
lvl 3 is along the lines of B-hop and stutter walking to stay silent. Really this level is only neccesary in a competative match. For those types of play it is neccesary. To tell us we are doing it WRONG is insulting. yes, there is a better way to do it but at the level we play at it is alot of extra work for very little reward.
That said, In my expirence simply asking someone if the want advice goes a long way.
BTW if you see me in game somewhere... I'm generally always open to advice. Howver, If I think it is irrelevant I will tell you. It's a two way street.
Once I saw a guy on a combat server who tried to bhop, and I told him how and taught him while the game was going. He learned how to after ten minutes.
Then there were those two or three players from a still popular euro public server who I helped to learn how to bhop.
That's twice I get to help people improve during four years of playing NS.
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I probably teach more people to bhop than I do anything else, not that teaching to bhop is all that frequent.
I run a server that plays ze_marinebhop 24x7 (unless we're using it for a scrim). Often I'll be practicing on there and sometimes people will join who have no clue to bhop and they ask how to do the first jump, so I spend like 10 mins explaining and watching them and some just give up, but others manage to get it.
For some I change the map to ns_bhop so I can spec them properly.
A couple of times I've been asked in game how to bhop and I tell them to add me to friends and follow me to my server to learn.