Scientology - Self help scam or dangerous cult?
Timmythemoonpig
Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22407Members
Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22407Members
in Discussions
The more I hear about scientology the more amazed I am..
It was created by a science fiction writer, a failed one at that, who bragged to more than a few friends that creating a new religion was the best way to make money.. and from that it has grown into this gigantic incredibly rich organisation which vehemently attacks any and all critics..
If you in any way publically criticise this 'pay per pray' religion they will literally go through your garbage and dig up your past and plaster the local area with any and all sordid details of your life..
I am sorry, but any organisation that follows its critics in blacked out cars really really really has something to hide...
I am saying scam And cult on this one
It was created by a science fiction writer, a failed one at that, who bragged to more than a few friends that creating a new religion was the best way to make money.. and from that it has grown into this gigantic incredibly rich organisation which vehemently attacks any and all critics..
If you in any way publically criticise this 'pay per pray' religion they will literally go through your garbage and dig up your past and plaster the local area with any and all sordid details of your life..
I am sorry, but any organisation that follows its critics in blacked out cars really really really has something to hide...
I am saying scam And cult on this one
Comments
thread over
If you're interested in Scientology, see <a href="http://www.xenu.net" target="_blank">www.xenu.net</a> for one of their staunchest critics.
I'd be surprised if Scientology is able to get any defense for itself in this thread.
Are you saying that the tenets of scientology as a religion are intrinsically "dangerous and scammy" ? I'd say you'd probably have a hard time proving that case - much like with just about any other religion out there.
The way the "Church" conducts its affairs though is a different matter - again much like any other church out there. Obviously if the "Church" is instructing its members to engage in criminal activity then I think we'd probably all agree that there is some danger there yes.
Scientology as a "self help" tool in my opinion probably has helped some people to lead happier lives sure - even though I don't have personal experience with it I imagine it plays a similar role to that of the other "major religions" to some.
So, by all means let's discuss, but I fear this going to be a "pat each other on the back while we all collectively mock something" session... which while may be amusing at first is probably not going to lead to anything overly productive.
It may help to narrow the focus of the discussion (not to mention changing the topic to something other than a statement).
Operation Clambake.
Start with the F.A.Q.
<a href="http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/" target="_blank">http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/</a>
thread over
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those pictures made me jump out of my skin...:/
Btw: there was a recent BBC documentary (can find it on Youtube) on Scientology which (like every serious investigation) found Scientology to be a ###### up cult. Stupidly, the Scientologists believed that the BBC were going to accept all propaganda that the cult gave them and therefore the documentary was just going to be a PR walk in the park. But, the BBC did not "play ball" and looked beneath the veil of the cult.
Things then got very strange. You should watch it yourself but the BBC crew started being followed and harassed EVERYWHERE. They tried to visit ex-Scientologists to get their story but out of the blue, a Scientologist representative would pop out of nowhere """by coincidence""" and disrupt the filming. Anyway, at one point John Sweney, the lead BBC reporter for the documentary, lost it and screamed out at rage at an incredibly stubborn Scientologist representative. He was of course at fault for doing so, but you've got to remember the frustration and harassment he went through.
What I've not mentioned yet is that the Scientologists themselves were also filming the documentary. And "amazingly", a few days before the documentary was meant to be aired, clips of John Sweney sprung up all over video sites. All these clips were taken out of context, heavily edited and in some cases dubbed in an effort to discredit the BBC and the documentary.
All the idiots achieved in the end, was a massive backlash by the viewers who did watch the video clips, most of whom were, thankfully sane, (judging by the number and quality of comments on this videos). It actually generated far more interest in the documentary than the BBC imagined and I hope, informed many people of the pathetic actions of this retarded cult.
For the BBC Panorama documentary, see <a href="http://xenutv.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/panorama-scientology-and-me/" target="_blank">here</a>.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the link.
I will be watching it.
Well, while I do enjoy a good discussion as much as the next person, I'm not sure what we're supposed to be discussing here exactly.
Are you saying that the tenets of scientology as a religion are intrinsically "dangerous and scammy" ? I'd say you'd probably have a hard time proving that case - much like with just about any other religion out there.
The way the "Church" conducts its affairs though is a different matter - again much like any other church out there. Obviously if the "Church" is instructing its members to engage in criminal activity then I think we'd probably all agree that there is some danger there yes.
Scientology as a "self help" tool in my opinion probably has helped some people to lead happier lives sure - even though I don't have personal experience with it I imagine it plays a similar role to that of the other "major religions" to some.
So, by all means let's discuss, but I fear this going to be a "pat each other on the back while we all collectively mock something" session... which while may be amusing at first is probably not going to lead to anything overly productive.
It may help to narrow the focus of the discussion (not to mention changing the topic to something other than a statement).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its a question.. is it just a self help scam?.. or is it a dangerous cult? they are two different things..
I am just amazed that everyone turns such a blind eye to such an obvious scam..
Like how many times a week or month does Tom Cruise get interviewed? how come noone ever asks him about this scam or cult he's in.. noone mentions it...
L Ron Hubbard was right, this is the way to make money.
Its a question.. is it just a self help scam?.. or is it a dangerous cult? they are two different things..
I am just amazed that everyone turns such a blind eye to such an obvious scam..
Like how many times a week or month does Tom Cruise get interviewed? how come noone ever asks him about this scam or cult he's in.. noone mentions it...
L Ron Hubbard was right, this is the way to make money.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'Cos you get sued and harrassed for even mentioning the posibility that it's anything other than a wonderful program that helps everyone.
I wouldn't call it dangerous in the sense of mortal danger (they're not going to kill you for not believing in it like other major religions' followers have in the past). Just dangerous in the sense that you risk being tarred and feathered by PR masters if you go against it. But (at least to me) this kind of mental harm is not the same as physical.
More of a self help scam, with a little cult thrown in.
I wouldn't call it dangerous in the sense of mortal danger (they're not going to kill you for not believing in it like other major religions' followers have in the past). Just dangerous in the sense that you risk being tarred and feathered by PR masters if you go against it. But (at least to me) this kind of mental harm is not the same as physical.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are reports of quite severe physical abuse (beatings by guards, forced to work far too many hours a day, kept in horrible conditions, socially divided from the other people etc...) in the SeaOrg thing, on their various boats. But I can't remember exactly where I read it.
Also, given the conversation, <a href="http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm" target="_blank">this</a> is a good read.
But (at least to me) this kind of mental harm is not the same as physical.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is easy to underestimate mental terror before you become victim of it. It is easy to underestimate anything brutal until you experience it close up. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
The basis for many religions is rather loose, and I think dismissing scientology is sort of...strange, considering some of the other main religions that have substantial numbers of followers.
I always see people complain about Xenu (which apparently all the scientologists deny exists anyway), so what is the lower level 'worship' that sucks everyone in, then? Personality tests and holding onto a psuedo-lie detector while I tell someone my life story does not appeal to me, no matter how much someone wants to tell me that my 'body and mind are in a state of chaotic disarray' or something like that. Walls listen just as well as unresponsive people...
I don't meant to drag down all sorts of other religions as well, but everyone's always like "well, how can L. Ron just create a religion out of nowhere" but then you've got people like Muhammad, Moses and Joeseph Smith, who all see God or visions or Angels or burning bushes and come back with divine wisdom.
I suppose the big problem associated with scientology is the 'paying money' thing, but no one's forcing them to pay money (and other religions have also required money or other things for worship at points in history).
I'd really only say it's dangerous if you're an 'slow on the mental draw' (and probably only a means of self-help if you're slow, as well). The panorama <a href="http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-7922220836261464038&q=scientology+documentary" target="_blank">video</a> (and the scientologists' <a href="http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=1740341336817381930&q=panorama+exposed" target="_blank">'witty retort'</a>) are both pretty interesting, and kind of make me wonder if crazy people are drawn to scientology (and also that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Davis_%28scientologist%29" target="_blank">Tommy Davis</a> is a ######, scientologist or not). You know, Christianity was considered a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity#Persecution" target="_blank">cult</a> too at one point, but you don't just get all huffy and start yelling at people and following them around - that makes you look 'crazy' not 'dedicated'.
Please continue your 'torture fix' over <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?s=2215992913920468736&showtopic=100550" target="_blank">here</a>, in the thread that - coincidentally - lolfighter created <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> . I'm not really sure what it could possibly have to do with cults, self-help (...unless you're a masochist), aliens, nuclear weapons or scientology.
The basis for many religions is rather loose, and I think dismissing scientology is sort of...strange, considering some of the other main religions that have substantial numbers of followers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scientology stands out because it is SO money driven, much more so than almost any other religion. People from diff religions accept other religions, but they do not accept Scientology.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I always see people complain about Xenu (which apparently all the scientologists deny exists anyway), so what is the lower level 'worship' that sucks everyone in, then? Personality tests and holding onto a psuedo-lie detector while I tell someone my life story does not appeal to me, no matter how much someone wants to tell me that my 'body and mind are in a state of chaotic disarray' or something like that. Walls listen just as well as unresponsive people...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scientologists obviously dropped the whole Xenu thing because it was one of Hubbards ridiculous ideas plus it was also a money making secret, once the secret was out people didn't wanna pay to know it.
Its very simple, the guy that wrote that famous give up smoking book that has actually made loads of people give up smoking, well he could quite easily create a religion based along the same principles, but always keep charging for the answers, also create a hierarchy within the religion, because people are competitive etc.. Scientology just hooks someone with a few easy answers, makes them feel part of a group, then the person is given a ladder they are obviously gonna want to climb, getting charged money the whole time. It just manipulates human behaviour, which isn't hard.. supermarkets and politicians do it to us all the time without us even noticing. We are much more stupid than we think we are, just pickup any book on body language and you'll see why.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I don't meant to drag down all sorts of other religions as well, but everyone's always like "well, how can L. Ron just create a religion out of nowhere" but then you've got people like Muhammad, Moses and Joeseph Smith, who all see God or visions or Angels or burning bushes and come back with divine wisdom.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was nothing historial, no prophet, no wiseman, just a plainly obvious conman, people are surprised because its working, even after L. Ron boasted to alot of friends about creating said religion to make money.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I suppose the big problem associated with scientology is the 'paying money' thing, but no one's forcing them to pay money (and other religions have also required money or other things for worship at points in history).
I'd really only say it's dangerous if you're an 'slow on the mental draw' (and probably only a means of self-help if you're slow, as well). The panorama <a href="http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-7922220836261464038&q=scientology+documentary" target="_blank">video</a> (and the scientologists' <a href="http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=1740341336817381930&q=panorama+exposed" target="_blank">'witty retort'</a>) are both pretty interesting, and kind of make me wonder if crazy people are drawn to scientology (and also that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Davis_%28scientologist%29" target="_blank">Tommy Davis</a> is a ######, scientologist or not). You know, Christianity was considered a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity#Persecution" target="_blank">cult</a> too at one point, but you don't just get all huffy and start yelling at people and following them around - that makes you look 'crazy' not 'dedicated'.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said before we are easily manipulated every day of our lives. Its not just crazy or stupid people who join. I'd love to take 10 total skeptics and make them join scientology for a year, I garuntee about half would feel better about themselves and wanna stay.
[youtube]HptefbTrzMU[/youtube]
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dMjwuAk7YQ" target="_blank">part 2</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTZ21Mo8G-8" target="_blank">part 3</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9BUroxjWR4" target="_blank">part 4</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VabdQPH7W8" target="_blank">part 5</a>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_Church#Cult_status" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_Church#Cult_status</a>
Keep religion and government seperate. Should have kept business and government seperate as well.
I suppose the big problem associated with scientology is the 'paying money' thing, but no one's forcing them to pay money (and other religions have also required money or other things for worship at points in history).
I'd really only say it's dangerous if you're an 'slow on the mental draw' (and probably only a means of self-help if you're slow, as well). The panorama <a href="http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-7922220836261464038&q=scientology+documentary" target="_blank">video</a> (and the scientologists' <a href="http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=1740341336817381930&q=panorama+exposed" target="_blank">'witty retort'</a>) are both pretty interesting, and kind of make me wonder if crazy people are drawn to scientology (and also that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Davis_%28scientologist%29" target="_blank">Tommy Davis</a> is a ######, scientologist or not). You know, Christianity was considered a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity#Persecution" target="_blank">cult</a> too at one point, but you don't just get all huffy and start yelling at people and following them around - that makes you look 'crazy' not 'dedicated'.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It has also been proven in court on several occasions that the CoS has made regular use of hypnotism under the guise of "self empowerment". Because this counts as a "religious practice" it isn't actually illegal, and while I know hypnotism has its limits, that's some pretty scary ish right there. They have quite literally been brainwashing people.
I also find it amusing that at one point the CoS was trying to claim that they should be allowed to "fair game" people because its part of their religion. If this were even remotely possible I would have started my own religion which allows me to stab stupid people long ago.
I also find it amusing that at one point the CoS was trying to claim that they should be allowed to "fair game" people because its part of their religion. If this were even remotely possible I would have started my own religion which allows me to stab stupid people long ago.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the religion part is bullish though, they wanted to be able to do that so it'd be easier to liquidate suppressive persons, rather than having to resort to stuff that nearly passes the constitution and human rights laws
<a href="http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/" target="_blank">http://theunfunnytruth.ytmnd.com/</a>
thread over
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
for reals