(alien) When destroying vital research buildings in rine base...

Sparki_the_Darki · March 2007

<div class="IPBDescription">Playing long, still a newbie :)</div>Hi

Just what happens exactly when buildings like armory (advanced), armslab and protolab get destroyed besides the need to be build again.

Are achievements lost, or currently inactive until rebuilt or what? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Thanks for any explanations
I know what happens with the destruction of IP, CC and the "Bacon" machine.

$parki

Talis · March 2007

If advanced armory or armory that is upgrading "aa", is destroyed the upgrade is basically lost. You need to upgrade the armory again.

With armslab and proto it's less harmful, only the up that's upgrading is lost and the ones you have researched are up with your new proto/arms.

Sparki_the_Darki · March 2007

Hmm
Is there actually a suggested building to destroy that would "really" hurt or do I have keep an eye on bouncing buildings? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

aeroripper · March 2007

You will almost always go for the advanced armory, unless a very specific situations deems you attack another one. The AA is in the middle of the marine tech tree.

If you kill AA, marines lose the ability to:

Drop HMGS
Drop GLs
Build proto lab (assuming they don't have one built)

It will cost 45 res just to rebuild and start reupgrading the AA, and will take another 3 minutes (IIRC) to get it upgraded again. Then you would have to build a proto lab, another 40 res, then assuming you haven't researched JP or HA, another 45 and 40 res respectively.

So to just get JPs after losing the AA, it would cost 90res (IIRC) and 5+ minutes just to get proto capability ready. Always go for the AA.

The only time you would go for the arms lab is when its a sure bet they will kill your hive (with a rush, possibly a contested siege), and them losing wep\armor upgrades will give your lifeforms the upper hand to take them out.

Going for the obs usually won't accomplish much, as a lot of the more skilled comms will have remote beacons. That is unless its a relocate, when they beacon you rush their base and kill the PG so they can't phase back from marine start.

My numbers might be off (feel free to correct), but that's the gist of it. In most games if the aliens take out the AA, its the beginning of the end for marines since you're delaying their higher tech for 3 minutes (an eternity in NS).

Sparki_the_Darki · March 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aeroripper @ Mar 24 2007, 11:07 PM) [snapback]1616732[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>

The only time you would go for the arms lab is when its a sure bet they will kill your hive (with a rush, possibly a contested siege), and them losing wep\armor upgrades will give your lifeforms the upper hand to take them out.

</div>

So for the stupid skulk like me:
So destroying the armslab would result in rines loosing weapon and armor upgrades immediately or until they spawn?

I assume the upgrades are active again as soon as the armslab is up, but I am still confused if the rines out in the field actually have an armor drop, say from 50armor to basic 30armor again - or something

haymo · March 2007

immediatly, it is a percentage drop.

Sparki_the_Darki · March 2007

okay
thanks for the info <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

$parki

Sparki_the_Darki · March 2007

Ah new question.
Electrified RT/TFs are a pain. Just which building would I need to destroy to stop the comm from spamming them? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

$parki ^-^

Johnie · March 2007

You can't stop that.
Once a TF has been built, the commander can electrify all RTs and TFs.

I'm not sure about this, but I believe the commander can still do it after all TFs have been destroyed.

Bacillus · March 2007

If the aa isn't upgrading early, its quite useful to chew the armslab. If you can take it down before its finished upgrading, marines may have to do without armor upgrade for a few minutes more or fight the fades without weapon upgrades.

As for the elec rt:s, just make sure you kill the res cappers before they've got the whole map covered and get the 2nd hive up as soon as possible. Killing the tf isn't much use because its just 10 res and a quick rebuild. I think the electrify requires tf, no matter if there has been a tf or not.

Underwhelmed · March 2007

What building to go after is mostly situation dependent - if you're trying to take down their base in one go, the obs and arms lab are most often your targets, since they greatly reduce the ability of marines to fight back. If you're just looking to do some damage/force a beacon, the Armory while it's upgrading, AA, and Protolab are great targets.

Conversely, marines shouldn't be shooting the hive unless they have a decent chance of taking it out - focus on chambers and RTs. Even just spawn camping will delay the alien team's spawn queue (Especially if they're stuck on 1 hive) and earn some res for marines.

Sparki_the_Darki · March 2007

thx ^-^

KainTSA · April 2007

Also, if you see an electrified RT, get a gorge to come there and "bile bomb it down". This ability is only available when you have two hives but its amazingly useful for taking out structures. The gorge can stand at a distance and destroy 45 res of marine structure (RT costs 15, elect cost 30). Stay there and guard the gorge in case marines come to take him out.

Sparki_the_Darki · April 2007

Yeah I know what bilebomb is there for <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
But I didn't know that it costs 30res for electrifying rt/tf.

Sounds a bit expensive <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />

KainTSA · April 2007

It is. I usually only do it to protect a PG in place of a turret factory because an electrified RT can take a whole lot more damage than a TF.

Porcepic · April 2007

Electrified RTs can be very good when you have lots of res and you are winning. Aliens have only poor skulks who can't destroy your RTs, and then you are I-N-V-I-N-C-I-B-L-E (at least if your soldiers don't die a lot...).

It can also be great to protect doubles, or at the start of the game, if your team makes a lot of kills, then elec make you keeping your RTs.

Faskalia · April 2007

Only time I elec "early" is on bast with a reloc to maint rt. Important structures go right next to the rt and everything else is crammed into the airlock corner, meaning every skulk who goes there will be at least zapped 2 times, unless he has leap.

Other than that: Elec can be good if you manage to cap RTs, close to alien hives and want to keep them. But if you manage to cap RTs close to the alien hives you usually have the superior team anyway.

Elec also rocks big games(12+vs 12+), simply because you wont see any fades/hives before 10mins.

Edit: As for the initial question.

All unfinished research is LOST if the building where research is happening gets destroyed.

Finished research gets restored if the building is build again (Note advanced armory is an UPGRADE)

Arms Lab goes down-> Marines are down to W0 and A0 until they build a new armslab.

Armory goes down-> No access to armory items, new mariens spawn without grenades even if they have been researched.

Advanced armory goes down ->Same as for Armory, but you have to build a normal armory and then advance it again.

Proto-Lab goes down ->Cant drop any HAs and JPs

Obs goes down ->You loose MT and scanning abilitys.

IP goes down ->You loose that spawn point and you cannot research MT without IPs (dont pin me on this one, there is some stuff in the research tree that requires an active IP but it is mostly mid and endgame, so you wont normally notice)

TF goes down->you cannot elec anymore, but elec that is already in progress will still finish. Already eleced Rts will also continue to work.

CC goes down->You cannot place anymore structures-> PRAY BIG TIME!

Faskalia · April 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sparki_the_Darki @ Mar 25 2007, 05:39 AM) [snapback]1616725[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Hmm
Is there actually a suggested building to destroy that would "really" hurt or do I have keep an eye on bouncing buildings? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
</div>

If the armory has been upgrade go for it.

If the armory is shaking (in the process of beening upgraded) go for it.

It hurts the most ^^

Sparki_the_Darki · April 2007

Somehow I feel addicted to destroying the protolab lately

It has far less hp. Maybe not as helpful but I still get the feeling of at least destroying something other than stepping on mine fields <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

KainTSA · April 2007

If the AA has been taken down, the proto is definetely next on the list to destroy as a new one can't be dropped till the AA ups again.

TheAdj · April 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sparki_the_Darki @ Apr 20 2007, 09:29 AM) [snapback]1622139[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Somehow I feel addicted to destroying the protolab lately

It has far less hp. Maybe not as helpful but I still get the feeling of at least destroying something other than stepping on mine fields <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
</div>

The protolab has more hitpoints than just about any structure (CC and RTs have more I believe). The obs is easily the weakest structure, and the armory isn't that strong either.

Bloo · April 2007

I thought Obs were a first priority when biting on a undefended marine base... That way you'll keep em from beaconing while you bite the aa...

Just tell me if i am wrong..

TheAdj · April 2007

It's situational. If you intend to prevent them from beaconing while you kill base, kill the obs first (assuming they only have one, if they have more don't even bother). The AA can be killed by two skulks in about 10-12 seconds, so often it's better to just hit that first and suicide on it to get it down, it's the most critical structure in the marine base.

Sparki_the_Darki · April 2007

considering obs and beacon
It happened way to often where I would kill the obs and think , okay now lemme kill some other building... until I am surrounded by a marine swat team - only 5secs later to hear somebody shout "BEACON" -________- <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

But yeah duo skulk rush on AA does work better than I thought <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /> (since I was the one who would walk on the mines, but shhsssh <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> )

the_x5 · April 2007

Two helpful counters to reduce AA rushing from the marine perspective: <ul><li>drop a second regular armory in base.</li><li>drop mines</li></ul>
Now what can you do if you are rushing x5's base and you come in and see that?

Faskalia · April 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(the_x5 @ Apr 21 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]1622287[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'>
Two helpful counters to reduce AA rushing from the marine perspective: <ul><li>drop a second regular armory in base.</li><li>drop mines</li></ul>Now what can you do if you are rushing x5's base and you come in and see that?
</div>

I jump on top of the shaking armory and start biting.

Same as usual <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

DC_Darkling · April 2007

Or I jump ontop/besides the armory with the little foots and gracefully thank x5 afterwards for the cover provided by the second armory. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

the_x5 · April 2007

<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> Heh. Funny replies.

The reason I post that is you'd be shocked how much that messes up your average alien player. "WTH two AAs?! Haxomg!" and secondly the mines are essential with an AA in my opinion.

KainTSA · April 2007

I don't understand why mines seem to be so powerful for this sort of thing. A skulk should easily be able to walk around them and start munching, yet they usually don't. The "pro" way to guard a phase gate is mines instead of electrification/TFs but when I see that I just laugh, walk around them carefully and start munching. Luckily for you mine lovers, most skulks don't watch where they're going <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

Golden · April 2007

Preferred order of destruction in a marine base is completely situational dependant. When I attack MS, I rarely go for the AA, simply because I usually have other objectives in mind. One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here is the tactic of destroying the marine start phase gate. If you destroy the phase gate in their base, then force a beacon, it gives your teammates an opportunity to clear field phases.

I generally don't kill the obs unless my objective is the complete and utter destruction of their base. Forcing a beacon puts all of the marines in the same place, a very good thing if you're having a hard time keeping track of everyone.

If you have sensories, the arms lab should probably be one of the first things to go. It'll put all the marines at one focus swipe to kill, or one focus bite and a parasite from skulks. Add in a little lerk gas and its one hit kills for everyone.

There are many more situations that call for other techniques, far too many to list in one little post.

DC_Darkling · April 2007

Mines are not to instant kill anything but to catch kharaa.

Exept the PG (in which you can place mines so they can't be seen hehe) I always place mines in such a way that a skulk either hits a mine or has no cover.

If thats not possible I will place em so that if I move in longrange from one side he either gets inrange or needs to dodge into a mine.

Structures which are mined and are not defended eventually could just aswell not be mined. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

(alien) When destroying vital research buildings in rine base...

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