Reevaluation Of Chamber Order

13

Comments

  • FossaFossa Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6931Members
    Yeah, usually if you go S and M you never even need d you win so easily <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • CatgirlCatgirl Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5741Members
    Yeah you win by the rush...or you die. That's your choices.
  • InjuryInjury Mahou Shoujo Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7992Banned
    I've done quite a few Sensory-Defensive-Movement games and Movement-Defensive-Sensory games, but never have I been in a game where the Defensive Chambers have gone last. I don't mind the extra damage reduction at all, especially since my eyes are inside my mouth so I can make sure I get all the chunks out with floss..
  • GibbyGibby Join Date: 2002-04-26 Member: 518Members
    Sensory is generally thought of as the expendable chamber. And it's true.

    You can't seige a base better with anything gained from sensory.

    If anything, it should be Movement, Defence, Sensory instead of the tried and true Defence, Movement, sensory.

    Why movement? Skulks with 3x celerity are the bomb. Lerks and Gorges can benefiet from Adrenaline. None of the low levels need armor. But the defence chambers can help heal buildings, which is why I say keep it how it is. Def, Move, Sense.

    Why not Sensory first? Because then you have Fades without carapace/regen or Adrenaline. And that makes for crappy fades. Sensory should be saved until last in any serious game, if at all.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Bah.

    Look, adrenaline isn't that good!

    You're all obssessed with being able to chuck continuous rockets, which isn't what a Fade is about. You, hit, run & recharge.

    And, if you're playing like you're supposed to, and you REALLY need to keep the pressure on (Teamwork, anyone?) there should be another Fade pulling the same trick whilst you're recharging. (and regening, in my case)

    D->S->M

    And Observatory doesn't really own cloak, as MT isn't paid enough attention to by 90% of marines, and most coms (thanks to the graphic being visible to aliens) aren't very effective in their sensory sweeps. If you're using your head (and if you've been allowed the 44 resources you spent on that Fade, you should be) you won't get caught, unless you were just unlucky to be stood in the wrong place.

    And cloak adds like 5,000,000 extra locations to your "List of places to drop on marines from as a Skulk" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • V_MANV_MAN V-MAN Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6217Members, Constellation
    D>M>S or D>S>M have always worked

    Everytime I have seen a game start with Sensory it has gone bad very fast with the marines advancing far to quickly and shooting up the Offensive chambers with ease.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    <!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Nov 22 2002, 02:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Nov 22 2002, 02:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    And Observatory doesn't really own cloak, as MT isn't paid enough attention to by 90% of marines, and most coms (thanks to the graphic being visible to aliens) aren't very effective in their sensory sweeps.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You know, when you play against bad marines and commanders, it doesn't really matter what you do - the game is pretty much lost by the marines rather than won by the aliens.

    So, in order for build order to matter, you have to assume a basic marine competence. You have to assume that they will take over a hive and move their base there. You have to assume that they DO understand the power of motion tracking.

    If they don't, the game is won already. And yes, in already won games, sensory chambers are ok, because build order doesn't matter.

    On the other hand, if you do come up against a competent marine team, you will need all the advantages you can get.

    That means a build order of DMS or MDS - doesn't much matter, because the time from first chamber built to second hive coming up is about 2 minutes (when I build, anyhow).
  • guagleguagle Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7312Members
    Maybe people should realize to that sensory is not only about cloaking, which is very useful wether or not the marines have motion tracking and/or are using scanner sweep. In the last case cloaking can even be put to your advantage if the commander is using too much sensor sweep as it may lead him to think that an area is safe, whereas the aliens lying in wait have just changed their hiding places. Moreover scanner sweeps give away the direction of their advance.

    I've also found that in the middle of a firefight the marines are not too absossed about those blue blinks, especially when they are being attacked by acid rockets or whatnot. They generally look after their hides, and cannot be bothered to check if aliens are getting between them and their base and cloaking.

    Sensory is also about scent of fear (adv. hive sight isn't partciularily useful to me, but maybe i'm wrong) which is useful in any kind of situation, even assaulting enemy forward bases as it reveals the localtion of all injured marines (and who isn't when fades are pounding the base with acid rockets). Thus you can pinpoint them and use precision instead of generally spamming an area. Plus it freaks them out, like "how the hell did this thing know i was there".

    To me the vasr advantage of sensory is that it gives you new powers, whereas movement enhances existing powers (except for silence).
  • TheDamageTheDamage Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7348Members
    You are all playing devil's advocate right? Have you ever been a lerk or a fade without adrenaline? Adrenaline next to carapace is the best upgrade in the game. There is no reason for sensory at all. Parasite = scent of fear. Enhanced sight = useless. Cloaking = gimmik. What are you gonna do watch them build turret factory's while they can't see you?

    If you do not get movement your lerks and fades are not operating as intended. No constant umbra, no acid volleys, no emergency blink, no non-stop flying, no streams of spikes, no constant biting or slashing.

    I guess if you wanted to severly hamper your teams chances of winning or expect the skulks to take out the marine fortifications then build sensory 1st or 2nd. Otherwise be smart, think about the other people on your team and build D->M. It's not hard.

    Just because it's different doesn't make it better. Why would Kharaa need sensory we have hive sight and parasite. It's useful as a free heal but thats about it. I have never died during a seige of a fortification and thought "Damn wish I had sensory so that I could stand still and not move" or "If I only had scent of fear I'd seen those 4 marines clearly while I crawled away to get energy".

    End of discussion. There is no tactical merit to sensory first or second. And just in case noone mentioned it. Sensor sweeps see cloaked aliens, thats the point of them, when the aliens are not moving they can still be found.

    <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> ==================================================== <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • InexorableInexorable Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
    Remember, you heard it here first. Sensory chambers have absolutely no use. Any use you think you got out of them is pure flight of fancy on your part.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No constant umbra, no acid volleys, no emergency blink, no non-stop flying, no streams of spikes, no constant biting or slashing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You don't need Adrenaline for constant umbra, acid volleys, emergency blink, non-stop flying, streams of spikes, or biting and slashing.

    Even with Adrenaline you can run out of energy for blinking. If you need to bite/slash long enough that energy becomes a concern you'ld be better served by practicing your melee combat. There are no maps big enough to support prolonged constant flight. Spikes and acid are still possible without Adrenaline, you just need to stop for an extra 5 seconds between acid volleys. Constant Umbra is possible regardless of what upgrades you choose.
  • LapLap Join Date: 2002-10-31 Member: 1818Members
    Come on. You don't need cloaking to stay hidden. Using the map to your advantage like hanging in high places works 75% or more of the time. And without the defense chambers offense chambers are useless/wasteful. As I gorge I always build up the chokepoints around marine base and with defense I can hold off about 5 or so un upgraded marines at a time. Without defense towers I think I can take maybe 1.
  • InexorableInexorable Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
    It's a purely psychological advantage I assure you.

    Have you ever seen how slowly DCs heal? It's something like 5 HP/second (I used to think it was 10 until I went in game and found out healing "pulses" are 2 seconds apart). OCs have 1200 HP, and and LMG does 50 damage/second (including the downtime during reload). It's not that the DC is saving your OCs, it's the fact marines <i>think</i> it is, so are more likely to give up.

    One day the marines will learn differently, and you'll start seeing groups of OC/DC chambers torn down almost as fast as their pure OC counterparts.
  • Lt_WarhoundLt_Warhound Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7654Members
    Almost.

    Odd that you are now adding that in. Your point from the the beginning has been that Def chambers _don't extend the life of off chambers, that they _can't, the marines do soooo much damage soooo fast the def chambers don't get any time to heal.

    Hhmm, first you think that def chambers can't help off chambers and aren't worth building, now you claim you can do constant umbra without adrenaline, and fades can recharge in 5 seconds more than with level 3 adrenaline.

    I really haven't a clue what game you are playing, as it just isn't that way in the NS I'm playing.
  • InexorableInexorable Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
    Technically yes, it will take longer to kill chambers that are being healed. Not a lot longer unless it is truly massive healing, but still longer.

    You can go constant Umbra without Adrenaline. You really can't do much else, but you can do constant Umbra.

    How much do you think Adrenaline gives anyway? Lvl 3 is only 16% by my the manual's numbers. If you've got some better ones, I'ld love to hear them.

    There is also a difference between not worth building, and not worth building for a specific purpose. I don't think DCs are necessary for OCs to do their job. You can save resources and upgrade slots by not insisting on building DCs at every outpost. It's something to consider when picking upgrade paths and saving for hives.
  • CatgirlCatgirl Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5741Members
    The tooltips say, each level of Adrenaline increases Alien energy recharge by 33%.

    So, with 3 Adrenaline levels, you should be recharging twice as fast as without.
  • Paladyne-TPFPaladyne-TPF Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7762Members
    edited November 2002
    What matso said is very true; against the average marine team, it's not really going to matter anyway. It might slow you down a bit, but in the end it'll turn out the same anyway. Against a <i>good</i> team it will mean the difference between winning and losing. Guess which one you should always assume is the case? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

    As my dad used to say, "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions." I live in a house with 5 other college guys, all of whom play NS. One of them is a <b>rabid</b> proponent of the sensory first, cloak-and-ambush tactics. We decided to play a 3 on 3 grudge match, with myself on marines and him on aliens. Their gorge (who knew what he was doing) put up defense first. However, as soon as the 2nd hive went up our cloak-happy player went gorge simply to lock in sensory before the other gorge could plunk down movement and switched back. This is after we had taken the Eclipse Command hive, incidentally.

    5 times, back to back, this occured:<ul>
    <li>Skulk comes in clinging to the ceiling, hides in a corner, and cloaks waiting to ambush.
    <li>Our builder marine stationed there tracks the blue circle, notes where it stops, and hears the telltale cloaking sound.
    <li>The builder turns the corner, fires at where the circle stopped and the sound came from, and smears the skulk across the room.
    <li>The builder resumes his duties as the skulk respawns, takes cloaking, and does it again.</ul>

    Meanwhile the fades attacking our bases were launching one painfully slow rocket after another. Had they had adrenaline instead they could have done twice the damage and potentially took down some important structures before the marines could have responded. In response to your specific points...

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you ever seen how slowly DCs heal? It's something like 5 HP/second (I used to think it was 10 until I went in game and found out healing "pulses" are 2 seconds apart). OCs have 1200 HP, and and LMG does 50 damage/second (including the downtime during reload). It's not that the DC is saving your OCs, it's the fact marines think it is, so are more likely to give up.

    One day the marines will learn differently, and you'll start seeing groups of OC/DC chambers torn down almost as fast as their pure OC counterparts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So one DC by itself doesn't grant an OC immortality. Big deal. It <i>does</i> do two things: Extend the lifespan of OCs in small groups considerably, and insure that the marines must do all that damage in one attack rather than wear them down through attrition. Using your own numbers, <i>and</i> assuming every shot is on target <i>and</i> the marines never need to reload or run out of ammo, each LMG is essentially doing only 45 damage per second instead of 50. That means that one LMG takes down an OC backed by <i>one</i> DC in 26.667 seconds, as opposed to 24. If you've played marines against OCs, you know that even against small numbers of OCs in a tight area, 2.667 seconds can be a very long time indeed. Of course it's not likely to just be one marine, but it's not going to be 1 DC either, and marines <i>do</i> need to reload, <i>don't</i> have unlimited ammo, and <i>don't</i> hit with every single bullet. Imagine what the real-world numbers are like, and you'll start to get the point. With 3 OCs and 2 DCs (my standard <u>low</u>-traffic setup), the extra time bought might easily be enough to insure that the OCs kill the marines outright, or buy time for help to wander over. And that's not even counting the fact that those DCs also give the skulks carapace or regen, and erase the marine's ability to win through attrition entirely, which is probably the <b>most</b> significant factor of all.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don't need Adrenaline for constant umbra, acid volleys, emergency blink, non-stop flying, streams of spikes, or biting and slashing.

    Even with Adrenaline you can run out of energy for blinking. If you need to bite/slash long enough that energy becomes a concern you'ld be better served by practicing your melee combat. There are no maps big enough to support prolonged constant flight. Spikes and acid are still possible without Adrenaline, you just need to stop for an extra 5 seconds between acid volleys. Constant Umbra is possible regardless of what upgrades you choose.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh sure, it's still entirely possible to use all these abilities without adren, but that's not the point. The point is that even ignoring other abilities and upgrades, in a straight comparison of cloak vs adrenaline, cloak loses. Think about it: You have the 2nd hive, it's time for fade assaults and lerk harassment or support. In terms of doing damage (the goal) the choice is clear: Adren helps you attack faster, while cloak doesn't even <i>work</i> while attacking unless you intentionally slow your ROF to a crawl in order to remain invisible. In terms of survival it should also be obvious: cloak will make it a little bit harder for enemies to spot you, but they can still spot where your projectiles are coming from. Plus proximity to an observatory will de-cloak you, MT or no, so in close-in base assaults your cloaking won't even <i>work.</i> In comparison, adrenaline gives you the effective cover cloaking does not by allowing you to put up a relentless assault even the most battle-hardened vet player will have a hard time walking through. While cloaking lets you potentially (and unreliably) hide for a few seconds, adrenaline reliably allows you to seriously wound (and deter) or outright kill your attackers so you can heal back up in safety.

    So, where's this big advantage of cloaking you keep implying exists? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is also a difference between not worth building, and not worth building for a specific purpose. I don't think DCs are necessary for OCs to do their job. You can save resources and upgrade slots by not insisting on building DCs at every outpost. It's something to consider when picking upgrade paths and saving for hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You either have defensive chambers or you don't. If you do, then you should probably be putting them wherever they make sense, e.g. with OCs in appropriate numbers based on location. If you don't, then you're in a world of hurt. OCs without DCs don't last anywhere near as long, and <b>more importantly become vulnerable to attrition attacks.</b> This means you must build many more OCs to fulfill the same purpose, or sacrifice the area defense entirely. Both are very bad ideas.

    You keep retreating and saying "well, yes, but I still don't think they're as useful as everyone thinks they are." Please just give up and admit that defense chambers are more or less indispensible for the early and middle game. I happen to like cloaking too, but it's a mere gimmick, something that lets an onos get a free kill on the marine wandering out the base or allows an alien to evolve in relative peace. It is <i>not</i> something in any way critical to the early or middle game, and is <b>definitely</b> not worth sacrificing defensive or movement abilities for.
  • padijunpadijun Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3419Members
    I've yet to see this thread show one advantage that sensory first has over defense first.
  • CatgirlCatgirl Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5741Members
    It lets Alien Rambos sit cloaked over doors and feel leet for ganking Marines who try to expand.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    ... instead of just waiting around the corner, rushing them and eating them whole ... lvl 3 carap means the marines will have to hit you with 20 LMG bullets to kill you. And you only have to bite them twice. Guess who is going to win?
  • InexorableInexorable Join Date: 2002-09-28 Member: 1360Members
    Please try to understand I'm not trying to say these upgrades are completely useless, it's that people are exaggerating their usefulness.

    After reading H'BNayr's posts on Carapace, I'm forced to admit that until this is fixed Carapace is far and away the best upgrade for anything, ever, in all possible scenarios. Nothing is better than doubling your effective HP for 2 RP (this is almost like doubling the number of players on your team). I hadn't done any testing for the exact effects, and I couldn't back up any claims of Carapace superiority with personal experience because I chew up marines with and without the upgrade. It's a side effect of playing on servers with marines who don't know that the scope on the LMG is just for show.

    So yes, until 1.03 or whenever the armor bug gets addressed, get D chambers. Get lots of them immediately to make sure you can always have lvl 3 Carapace.

    As for the defensive outposts, I want to do some hands on testing. I know that you can take an OC down in less than 3 unupgraded LMG clips. I've done that much testing at least. But I'm almost beginning to suspect that DCs heal other chambers faster than aliens. If this is true, then it obviously affects my predictions. Unfortunately, until I hear otherwise I will assume that the heal rates are the same and that over time an LMG will do ~10 times as much damage as a DC can heal. Accuracy is something I can't factor in exactly, but even assuming a 60% hit rate DC healing is insignificant in the face of dedicated LMG fire.

    You are right about DCs preventing attrition attacks. However, I don't feel like planning on bad marine playing. Marines shouldn't be wandering around on their own attacking, respawning, and attacking random OC outposts. If they are, you're probably going to win anyway and the whole argument is moot.

    One last thing I'ld like to point out is what somebody keeps saying about Gorges thinking about the rest of the team when building upgrade chambers, and the argument that if aliens were willing to change their play style then any upgrades can work. These statements go hand in hand, since most alien players can't be bothered to rush to defence, or camp the front lines, it is the Rambo-friendly upgrades which become more useful. They aren't actually more powerful (save for Carapace <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ), but they fit the playstyle of newb aliens better.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Now, if ONLY Paladyne-TPF-'s "test" had been in any way a game style situation.

    It was a TEST. You not only KNEW he was going to be cloaking for you, but he was the only real thing you were looking for.

    Try it mid-game, whilst trying to build, worrying about ammo etc etc.

    Secondly, I am one of the proponents of sensory too (not first tho', I reckon 2nd is the way to go, see further) but I reckon for more Fades than Skulk. Skulks have LOTS of places to hide, Fades don't.

    Lastly, in response to whoever mentioned about OC/DC combo, the DC isn't MEANT to save the OC's, if you're playing NS the way I do, the idea is, as soon as it's under attack, you're mean to react as players, and combat the threat. The DC's are there to repair the damage AFTERWARDS, meaning that the "trap" doesn't need to be replaced every time, just repaired.
  • BiTMAPBiTMAP Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7685Members
    my question is what point is a defence chamber if you can be seen, I see cloaking as a better way to survive, I go attack take off and hide allowing them to pass me bye before i charge in again and finish them off, regen is loud and lets them hear you, while movement is VERY useful, but defence is nearly useless..
  • Lord_ChambersLord_Chambers Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6160Members
    edited November 2002
    If you've read Mr. Fruitypants' posts on the third page you can probably skip mine. There have been many wise points made, and in my own arrogance I'd like to summarize the ones I think are important and make the "right" conclusion.

    Defense, Movement, and then Sensory is the optimal order. The only order you could argue is Movement, Defense, Sensory, and even that's iffy.

    Certainly low level aliens benefit most from sensory. Too bad, you MUST have Defense and more importantly, Movement, for Lerks and Fades, so Sensory MUST come last.

    I think a low level alien would benefit most from a Movement chamber, whether it's from Celerity or Silence. Their beneifits, especially Silence, is compounded by the fact that most Commanders don't get motion tracking up early in the game, so all the Marines have to rely on is sound. Take that away and they are helpless targets. Low level aliens don't get much benefit from healing at Defense Chambers, nor are they so valuble that you'd want to try to redem or painstakingly regenerate them. Carapace might give you a couple shots here or there of extra survival, but those few shots aren't as helpful as Celerity or Silence.

    I see Movement, Defense, Sensory as the ideal way to go. Even taking into account the building healing abilities of Defense Chambers I see Movement most valuble early on, because in my experience the Marines don't start moving out to the point where you need to start blocking off their movement (or defending the actual hives themselves, as most short-sighted gorges do) until after a second hive is being built. Not only is there little need for building healing before two hives, but the gorges don't have the resources for it if they went for that second hive with any kind of expediency. Really, what is the point of debating. You realize the neccesity of Defense and Movement for Fades and Lerks, and generally you'll get both upgrades right after that second hive is built, not one in the beggining of the round, and a second after the hive is built.

    All this said, I think on the average pub you need to go defense first, if not from the peer pressure, but because there will be stupid gorges building poorly placed offensive towers, and those towers have no chance of being helpful without healing Defense Chambers behind them. Couple this with the fact that early motion tracking (on maps where it's not faulty) will negate the Movement upgrades, especially Silence, and Defense is a slightly safer choice to go with. I think everyone realizes an organized clan could work whatever strategy they aimed for.

    Except sensory first.

    But other than that.

    Anything. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Paladyne-TPFPaladyne-TPF Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7762Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Nov 23 2002, 05:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Nov 23 2002, 05:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, if ONLY Paladyne-TPF-'s "test" had been in any way a game style situation.

    It was a TEST. You not only KNEW he was going to be cloaking for you, but he was the only real thing you were looking for.

    Try it mid-game, whilst trying to build, worrying about ammo etc etc.

    Secondly, I am one of the proponents of sensory too (not first tho', I reckon 2nd is the way to go, see further) but I reckon for more Fades than Skulk. Skulks have LOTS of places to hide, Fades don't.

    Lastly, in response to whoever mentioned about OC/DC combo, the DC isn't MEANT to save the OC's, if you're playing NS the way I do, the idea is, as soon as it's under attack, you're mean to react as players, and combat the threat. The DC's are there to repair the damage AFTERWARDS, meaning that the "trap" doesn't need to be replaced every time, just repaired.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It <i>was</i> an actual game, not a test. I merely used it as an example to illustrate my point.

    We <i>knew</i> he was going to be cloaking because he was a rabid pro-sensory player, but that was actually irrelevant. My marine in that situation was holding the Eclipse hive and occasionally building as our resources trickled in, keeping a close eye on the lovely blue circles moving across the map. The cloaker came up, a big blue circle on the wall, and greeted us with a nice obvious "I'm cloaking" sound, exactly as all of the pro-sensory ninja skulks would have done in the same situation. The marine was actually in the middle of a build the first time; the ironic thing is it was an armory, so you got your ammo too. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    And I don't see fades as being a suitably stealthy class, because they're better used for brute force. Sure, you <i>can</i> go the route of the unseen assailant, but I find it to be a tactic that is limiting, weak, and easily beaten. Go with adrenaline and simply kill the marine coming around the corner instead of cloaking and hoping he won't find you. Besides, unless you have good DC backup (thus making this thread more or less obsolete) you'll probably be taking regen anyway, so the squishy healing sound will give you away. If you don't have defensive chambers at all... well, enjoy all 10 seconds of your fadedom, because it's certainly not going to last.

    I totally agree that the DC isn't meant to singlehandedly save the OC against a real team; its role is to extend the lifepspan of a blockade long enough for players to kill the attackers, or even better to extend the lifespan of the OCs long enough that they'll whittle down the attackers themselves if it's a small group. Keep in mind however, that on pubs there <i>will</i> be rambos soloing your blockades, and that the attrition factor <i>is</i> significant. Just today I was playing as marines against an inexperienced gorge who chose movement first and didn't push agressively for the second hive. The unenhanced OCs were easy pickings, simply because I would solo an outpost, die, respawn, do it again... suicide-skulk style. No other members of my team helped, and in 20 minutes I had cleared the map's chokepoints singlehandedly. Would that have been possible against a decent alien team? No. Would that situation have happened in the first place? Of course not. Defense chambers are indispensable, regardless of the line of reasoning you choose to back that up with. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Just_AyaneJust_Ayane Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7317Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerks and skulks die too fast to benefit from heal and carapace, their only chance at survival involves not being shot period. Healing afterwords or taking one more bullet is not the proble, not being hit period it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Not really true, skulks benefit from carapace, a good skulk with carapace could be as deadly as a fade with adrin.
  • guagleguagle Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7312Members
    Ok, check out the demos in this thread:

    URL=http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=12660]demos[/URL]

    In one of them (can't remember which one) you'll see the ns-playtesters put sensory chambers first and win the game. And, interestingly, in this game the marines built an observatory right at the beginning.
  • TyladrasTyladras Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9385Members
    The reason i think most people love defence chambers so much, is that it realy promotes individuality and lack of contact and communication with the group. What if instead of waiting to heal, instead you took a short jaunt back to your friendly gorge building in the RIGHT spot (not some stupid O chamber outpost, but a hive or something) get healed and go back to the fray almost as fast as regen would be. With teamwork and communication between teamies, sensory first can be an awsome aset to skulks, especialy ones who know how useful parasited marines are. If you have a good team, any order can work, but Def/move/sens is the best adapted to working around useless teamies who are draging your team down.
  • iddqdiddqd Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7596Members, Constellation
    not putting up a defense tower first is a horrible idea.

    first, it helps gorges secure an area. to keep your resource points, you need to secure them with offense towers, and they dont heal by themselves.

    second, upgrades may not be that great, but skulks aren't really what needs the defense chambers, it's the buildings.

    third, movement upgrades dont really benefit anytime until the second hive, anyways. movement should come second because of the upgrades and the teleport to other hives. sensory should be LAST on your list because it doesnt help with holding a position, it's just there to help kill, and this isnt CS.

    that's my opinion.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I wouldn't mind seeing Sensory - Defence - Movement but I have a feeling that it is a chamber order more suited to clan games.

    Even though a skulk rush is an impressive sight to behold, the whole team and their pet cat don't have to participate, IMO only about half the team should be rushing the base, the rest (except the gorges) should be hiding in the rafters waiting for any marines who slip past the skulks who are rushing. Their job is made much easier when they can't be seen, hence sensory chamber first.

    At the start of the game the marines shouldn't be able to get out of their base to attack any of your nodes, so there is no real need to put def chambers up right away, maybe just a Offence chamber or two which will keep them busy long enough for an alien to get there and kill them. However in the mid-game the marines will have most likely broken out of their base and starting to assault some of your nodes, but you should also have your second hive up by now, which means it's time for the gorges to build def chambers so that the rest of the team can take on a more of a defence roll.

    In the end-game the marines should be stuck in their base again and the aliens should have their third hive up, which means it's time for the movement chambers. I bet some of you are thinking that it is stupid for someone to build the movment chambers last. But lets think about it for a second.

    Movement chambers first: even though you will get your energy back faster, or you will run faster. thats not of much use when your rushing a marine base, because sooner or later you will get killed (most likely sooner) and you will have wasted 2 rps for your team, but what about using them to teleport back to your hive when it's under attack or for healing? well the marines shouldn't even be able to get out of their base so your hive shouldn't be under attack, as for healing you can just go to your nearest friendly neighbourhood gorge and get him to heal you or be a good skulk and ignore your fear of death and remember that your doing it for the hive and not a kill death ratio.

    Movement chambers second: yes they are good for getting to a hive if it's under attack but if you go movement chambers second instead of defence chambers, your offensive chambers will repeatedly get crushed into the flooring by HMG wielding meatpops.


    I could go into more detail but I have other things to do
  • Mr_BeanMr_Bean Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7943Members
    Your ignoring the problem of how to take back the third hive, normaly any half-way decent Marine Commander will take at least ONE Hive and spam it to high hell with turrets, With out Addrellen this means one mintue and fourty seconds per turret, considering you have an avarage of THREE turrets to kill before you can get a shot on the TF possible two or three TFs that means an avarage of FIVE MINTUES of wailing before you crack a hole, With addrellen its less than 40 seconds before you kill a turret meaning a smart Fade can clear out a hive in under three minutes, Also Sensory is ment for hiding So many Maps(Bast, Nothing, Nacy, Hera ect....) The only Two maps where Sensory First is helpful is Eclipse and Tanaith, However EVEN THEN Tanaith has SO many long corridors where a Fade can hold of half a dozen HA's with Addreillen, However without he/she will be lucky to hold off ONE let alone two or three...
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