Combat

13

Comments

  • RobertoRoberto Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14591Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-YolkFolk+Jun 1 2005, 07:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (YolkFolk @ Jun 1 2005, 07:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A web gorge can neatly handle pretty much any single marine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If the gorge has any skill, he can keep 2 or 3 marines permanently webbed until a skulk hops in and kills them all.

    I feel that the aliens have too many paralysis weapons for combat- stomp, digest, web. Being stuck with no ability to fire your weapon just isn't fun. Marines have no such paralysis weapons, the closest they have is comm chair blocking in regular ns.

    Ever have one of those games where you are playing so well it feels great, zooming around and killing everything, then you hit a web and that just goes away? It kills the game high.
  • YolkFolkYolkFolk Join Date: 2004-08-18 Member: 30697Members, Constellation
    This is precisely the sort of "Well then you guys get this!" "Well then YOU guys get THAT!" argument that is the essence of the very well named game of Natural Selection.

    So now we are NO LONGER complaining about webs, but about a whole team of aliens including a web gorge and non-crappy skulks/fade/onos. Oh no! A team capable of teamwork has a high chance of success!! How did the devs slip up and let that in!

    I'll say it again.

    There is no sensible argument that involves allowing one marine to bypass alien defenses all by himself. Even more so than aliens, marines must work together to win.
  • YolkFolkYolkFolk Join Date: 2004-08-18 Member: 30697Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Roberto+Jun 1 2005, 08:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roberto @ Jun 1 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ever have one of those games where you are playing so well it feels great, zooming around and killing everything, then you hit a web and that just goes away? It kills the game high. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Waah. One marine should not be zooming around killing everything.

    I still don't buy that webs will stop any marine group. Often are the times when a sizable fraction of my team has been killed by an incoming group of marines, who take advantage of the respawn time to blow up the webs in the hive entrances and enter en masse. This is what I am more afraid of than

    One marine zooming around trying to kill everything.
  • moskiittomoskiitto Join Date: 2003-12-18 Member: 24504Members
    edited June 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-YolkFolk+Jun 1 2005, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (YolkFolk @ Jun 1 2005, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still don't buy that webs will stop any marine group. Often are the times when a sizable fraction of my team has been killed by an incoming group of marines, who take advantage of the respawn time to blow up the webs in the hive entrances and enter en masse. This is what I am more afraid of than

    One marine zooming around trying to kill everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    There I agree. When I was playing on Weasels server (combat, of course) and map was daimon, I was webbing gorge there. When there was ha rush coming from the side and jps coming from the vent, WEBS DON'T WORK. It's absolute bs if someone says that one gorge can stop whole team. That's just not right. Matches were actually pretty good there, when aliens couldn't have redemp AND there was onos-limit. I say it again, webs aren't problem, it's redemp. Let's take co_angst. Four onos rush into marinebase. Many marines will die but only one onos dies with them, while three was saved by redemp. They wait couple of seconds and AGAIN RUSH! Marines stay at base because they are too afraid that cc gets smashed.

    I say it again, webs aren't biggest problem, not at all. Redemp is.
  • RobertoRoberto Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14591Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-YolkFolk+Jun 1 2005, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (YolkFolk @ Jun 1 2005, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Waah. One marine should not be zooming around killing everything. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What is the point of playing games then if you don't get the high?
  • YolkFolkYolkFolk Join Date: 2004-08-18 Member: 30697Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin-Roberto+Jun 1 2005, 09:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roberto @ Jun 1 2005, 09:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-YolkFolk+Jun 1 2005, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (YolkFolk @ Jun 1 2005, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Waah. One marine should not be zooming around killing everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What is the point of playing games then if you don't get the high? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Get the high. Enjoy the game. But if you come to a team game that needs team play to succeed, dont complain when you don't get to pwnzor it up solo.
    One marine zooming around killing everything is not what NS is about. One web gorge alone is not going to destroy the CC, probably wont even hold off a coordinated attack. One marine is not going to be able to destroy the hive by himself. I am sorry if that ruins your high, but that is the game you have decided to play.
  • RobertoRoberto Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14591Members, Constellation
    because god knows I'm not a team player... Guess what, teams without someone in the field making stuff happen tend to lose. Maybe I could get the warm and fuzzy, rainbows and unicorns team feeling if the other people ever moved out of base and managed to get anywhere near the hive.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    edited June 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-YolkFolk+Jun 1 2005, 01:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (YolkFolk @ Jun 1 2005, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still don't buy that webs will stop any marine group. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Then I don't buy that you have seen as many combat games as I have.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Often are the times when a sizable fraction of my team has been killed by an incoming group of marines, who take advantage of the respawn time to blow up the webs in the hive entrances and enter en masse.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah, it's easy to stop webs when the entire alien team is dead, gosh why didn't I ever think of that?

    Some of you are failing to see the problem. This might be becuase that you're unaware that marines themselves can be webbed (aka not 2 points on a wall), or it might be because no one has actually tried to do the ol' mighty suggestions that were brought up in this thread. (Just get 2 JP'ers to kill the hive! ^_^ problem solved <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)))) . Let's actually try to throw some common sense into this.

    First, if one gorge with webs could only web a single marine (as someone thought) then webs would hardly be a problem. The truth of the matter is, if a gorge has average skill and adren. he can keep 2 to 3 marines webbed untill 1) someone kills the gorge (aka someone not webbed) or 2) the aliens kill the webbed marines. Obviously, the second outcome is the standard.

    Second, in combat no one team holds any point, save their starting point, for long. It's spawn > push to enemy base > try to destroy it > repeat. The flow of combat is gone once webs are introduced. If the marines manage to take out all the webs in the hive room, and in the areas outside it, and if they do not kill the hive, (hard becuase why? aliens spawn) all of their previous work of destroying the webs is whiped and they have to start over. Obviously, the more the marines make these pushs the more the alien team (people who are not the gorge) learns where to go to cut down the webbed marines.

    Third, there are no counters to webs. If you guys do not believe me join a combat game, go gorge, get webs - and watch. Play as if you wanted to win - and you will find that you can replace webs a lot quicker than a GL can knock them down - and you will find that if any fool who takes a welder out (and somehow doesn't get killed by your teammates) that you are indeed able to web him.

    Let's also point out that in every example anyone has provided in this thread there has only been 1 gorge. In games excess 8v8 it is not uncommon to find 2, maybe even 3 gorges. Depending on the map, double or tripple gorges are very, very, difficult to defeat. Double the webs, double the heals...
  • Splinter_SteveSplinter_Steve Join Date: 2005-03-20 Member: 45881Members
    edited June 2005
    I agree with the tweaking which would prevent the length of the stun, which by the way I have found no rhyme or reason to if it's supposed to be the same amount of time for each webbing. Maybe it's lag issues, dunno.

    I can honestly say I've beaten webs on several occasions, even a few with an alien stack (a game where my team had four heavy armors comes to mind). With the same people who do nothing but web and run to father onos or fade. Obviously yeah, it's an ability with an impact, and I'll agree it does delay games. But after webs are gotten, I see the game go either way. This is more true as you increase the time limit I'll admit, but really it's just the basic game that CO is. Teamwork can help. If you mopped up thirty skulks with a shotgun then find the rest of your team experience-less to help you jetpack the hive, well you can call that flawed but that's CO for you.

    Also I'd like to point out that without webs, gorges have one function in combat: heal spraying the hive. If you really plan to subject people to only that while playing, start recruiting zombies, because it defeats the class entirely. Then if you want to argue "sure, get rid of the gorge", then there's other balance issues and GOOD GOD it's a vicious cycle that never ends until you realize what's happening.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Steve, if you don't want people to agree with you, then why did you make the thread? I assumed that your purpose was to educate people about why webs are overpowered, and if so then that usually involves at least some level of persuasion. If your thread is a troll then it doesn't matter how many facts it contains, people are going to be biased against you from the start, and that's pretty much what happened here. You're making enemies even out of people who think you're right because your smug attitude pisses them off, and that sure isn't helping your cause. If that doesn't bother you then go right ahead, but don't expect to get webs nerfed any time soon the way you're going about it.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    edited June 2005
    <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jun 1 2005, 08:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jun 1 2005, 08:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> why did you make the thread? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wanted to let the Dev team know that webs are overpowering.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--QuoteBegin-Zek+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->don't expect to get webs nerfed any time soon the way you're going about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nothing is going to happen becuase of this thread - I knew that right from the get go. I've been in this community too long to be naive enough to think the dev team would acutally make any changes.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also I'd like to point out that without webs, gorges have one function in combat: heal spraying the hive. If you really plan to subject people to only that while playing, start recruiting zombies, because it defeats the class entirely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The purpose of a gorge is to 1) Build buildings (Chambers, Res, Hives, etc) 2) Heal. Since there are no buildings in combat, that leaves the gorge off with healing. A gorge that can stop a marine team dead (yes - it happens often - yes - thats why it's a problem) goes above and beyond their role.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    My only gripe about combat itself (I hate it completely otherwise)


    Is every server runs some sort of idiotic addon that sodomizes combat even more. Extra levels? Counter-strike maps? What the hell is this?
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    i dont mind extra levels, but I really hate /menu
  • Us3rUs3r Join Date: 2002-03-29 Member: 360Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+May 30 2005, 05:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ May 30 2005, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Get a gl or welder. Seriously, I don't know how you can say you still get webbed if you're welding. If you're walking, and you get webbed while welding, you're a bloody moron. If you're in a jp, it just takes a little skill; just clear the "easier" side of the hive, target the gorge, kill him, then you get 30 seconds of basically no worries hive-pounding, more if you kill the gorge while he's gestating again. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The marine will fly into the hive and have 20% more aim than any of the skulks, which means they will miss more than he does. With all this extra missing the skulks are doing, the marine has more health, which means he will survive for longer. The marine then makes his way passed all the webs with a welder, he will then make his way to the gorge and kill the gorge. This provides an extra 30 seconds for the marine to shoot the hive, more if you kill every single alien that spawned and they're all dead for another 30 seconds. (even though the respawn timer isn't 30 seconds.)

    The Onos comes flying into the marine base, with umbra, gorge, and fade backup. The Onos has celerity and charge, so he's going super fast, all the marines hit him for almost no damage because of the umbra and gorge backup. But wait, the gorge is down, and now the lerk is too! The marines seem victorious until 5 more onos charge the base and kill every marine. Thanks to that unrealistic respawn timer, the Onos have 30 seconds to kill the CC, more if they spawn camp and kill the marine team again.

    Yeah, making up moronic scenarios outside of the game is a stupid thing to do.
  • ShinzonShinzon Join Date: 2003-07-25 Member: 18407Members
    combat does need re work, I agree...

    Though taking out webs isn't the solution... webs force the team to use eachother... and that soloing ninja jper becomes more reliant on his team mates... webs often save the alien team and even they are annoying, they should be kept in...

    Welder is a joke... some servers have the self weld, and thats the only thing its good for...

    Gl, don't fire every single round like a machine gun, but rather inforce a creeping barage... then on ur last nade the gorge should come out and start web sapmmin, use the last nade then quickly whip out the pistol, should wourk almost every time...

    The gl is very effective when there are 2 glers... 1 reloading the other shooting a vollies of nades... and always rember to aim when shooting with them...
  • Electrical_TapeElectrical_Tape Join Date: 2003-07-18 Member: 18257Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You fail to consider several things:

    1.  It's a known fact you can't counter webs.  Stop saying you can.  It's not true, a good gorge with webs/adren in the hive room can out-counter anything the marines throw at the gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You cant counter a gorge in the process of webbing... yes.

    Most people dont know that its a fact, so its not known, yet it is a fact =p

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And besides, it's COMBAT, there's barely anything TO know that you wouldn't pick up from even a month's worth of playing it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    A month? Good Lord, combat has a steeper learning curve than I ever imagined.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ever have one of those games where you are playing so well it feels great, zooming around and killing everything, then you hit a web and that just goes away? It kills the game high. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes... I hate that <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->

    Anyway... Combat servers need some 1.04 welder action going on them. Instead of firing twice a second like they do now, firing ten times per second would counter webbing fine. Hell, while youre at it, return the welder to 1.04 damage as well, 14.
  • SandstormSandstorm Join Date: 2003-09-25 Member: 21205Members
    Hmm...what if HA were immune to web?
  • Electrical_TapeElectrical_Tape Join Date: 2003-07-18 Member: 18257Members
    I guess it would make HA more desirable in combat....
  • BloodBallBloodBall Join Date: 2003-07-11 Member: 18098Members
    <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+May 30 2005, 05:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ May 30 2005, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+May 30 2005, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ May 30 2005, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Webs have no place in combat - and if you reply with "just get a gl or welder" you're only showing your own ignorance when it comes to webs in NS Combat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Get a gl or welder. Seriously, I don't know how you can say you still get webbed if you're welding. If you're walking, and you get webbed while welding, you're a bloody moron. If you're in a jp, it just takes a little skill; just clear the "easier" side of the hive, target the gorge, kill him, then you get 30 seconds of basically no worries hive-pounding, more if you kill the gorge while he's gestating again.

    Oh, and saying that anyone who doesn't think like you (that webs CAN be countered in combat) is ignorant is not the best way to start a discussion. If anything, you just lit a match and burned your own ship.

    Then again, I don't suppose there are many people left who can take you seriously anyway, so killing your own discussion isn't really a big deal. People in general don't listen to asshats, no matter how good they are/how good their ideas are. <remembers Forlorn> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    When you're JPing, the hitbox moves faster than the welder, so you still get webbed. And in a map like faceoff, there isnt time to slow down or you'll die.
  • Us3rUs3r Join Date: 2002-03-29 Member: 360Members
    I like how a year and a half later, webs were finally changed, good suggestion SentrySteve. Hopefully for NS2, people wont have to bring up game suggestions 2 years before they will actually be considered.
  • LofungLofung Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Members
    edited December 2006
    i dun think co will be improved or balanced or whatever, in the coming patch. it still need to be reworked.
  • enigmaenigma Join Date: 2004-09-11 Member: 31623Members
    or you can just stop playing it because it is terrible
  • InFlamesInFlames Join Date: 2004-10-22 Member: 32396Members, Constellation
    edited December 2006
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Soviet Green
    That way I will never even see any combat servers, I won't have to meet the players who prefer it over ns_(most of these guys share the mentality that if it's effecitive, you are lame. They are also quick to yell omg scripts/cheats/hacks/lag whenever they don't win, and OMG pwned!11 whenever they do.). <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    At least they dont have to deal with the egos and poor judgement.


    This discussion revolves around the incredible lack of team work primarily on the Marine side. Yes webs can appear to be over-powering but you can find all the help you need back in ms incredibly busy nading the wall in a corner.
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    Just play on big servers where rines walk in groups, which apparently is teamwork <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />
  • InFlamesInFlames Join Date: 2004-10-22 Member: 32396Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1583063:date=Dec 1 2006, 10:00 PM:name=milosis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(milosis @ Dec 1 2006, 10:00 PM) [snapback]1583063[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    so your arguement is that webs arent overpowered because u can run and cower in ms with a gl?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



    ...................
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Frankly I think Combat is a completely lost cause no matter what we do. The only way to realistically balance it is to remove half the tech tree, which just makes it even less worth playing. The only reason I ever play Combat is to screw around until the server fills up - it certainly isn't because I care about the outcome.

    Maybe for NS2 we should have a community contest to make some dumb minigame maps to amuse ourselves in small games. ns_skulkrace ftw.
  • TheGuyTheGuy Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19295Members, Constellation
    Trying to balance combat and classic at the same time is never going to work out. You change one you change the other. Overpowered in combat is balanced in classic etc.
  • BOBDololBOBDolol Join Date: 2003-10-04 Member: 21431Members
    Why is there no penalty for dying? This is the main reason why combat is so imbalanced.
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1583370:date=Dec 2 2006, 04:41 PM:name=gumhat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gumhat @ Dec 2 2006, 04:41 PM) [snapback]1583370[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
    why don't you guys get rid of gestation times in combat? if you save up enough points to go onos then you stay onos the next time you spawn.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i assume youre pretty new
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    You should lose a level every time you die. Would make things more balanced -- not to mention finish stalemates quicker.
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