Not really. They're only somewhat beneficial to aliens (if you're at the point where you have three hives), and just frustrates anything <i>that will happen anyway</i> with marines. At hive three unless you're a dumb rambo with no arms lab at base you probably have some sort of decent weaponry, having some left after the gorge for the others in those situations. They're good at killing rambos, how many offensive abilities aren't? In CO a web you're pointing at with a welder doesn't always mean you're gonna weld the thing. And with even one gorge, they just chase you with them as you fly around until the obligatory camping onos/focus fade/any half-decent player catches up with you, which usually doesn't take long. What I've witnessed numerous times is that this strategy just drags games out to their time limit (25 minutes, 45 minutes, even an hour) with no decisive victor, as aliens are inspired to do as "defenders" (the whole attacking/defending thing only gives incentive to doing this, which is why I never understood the addition of it). Then you have an entire server of irritable people that resent having played through the map in a repeating cycle of futility. They suck in NS and CO, except when used in the hive in CO with a camping-minded team.
Thus, replace with babblers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Bile bombs are largely ineffective in combat. Replacing them with babblers would be a nice change.
Babblers would be more effective in combat. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think Babblers should definately be brought back. I just loved the little suckers. With a few tweaks to the A.I. and a cap of somekind (i.e. no more than say...10 babblers in existence at one time) and they'd be perfect.
Oh, and somebody get rid of Devour. It's the gayest ability ever devised. It works fine in Wc3 ....but not in NS. Even with Endurance aura...at least you can catch and kill Kodo's. The only time a good Onos dies is when they do something very stupid, or when they get blocked by idiot team-mates. Right now, all Devour is, is a way to annoy the hell out of players (not to mention instantly drive away newbies. "Look! I just downloaded this new mod where I can stare at the inside of an aliens colon for thirty seconds at a time! W00t!") with little to no repercussions.
And in CO, mass onos/fade is just hell. Focus fire can bring down one or two (though it takes tremendous team-work and mistakes being made on the part of the alien team) but the rest can easily over-run the marines. The marines best chance of victory is in fact early/mid-game. Shotty rushing a hive full of skulks offers a far greater chance of victory than trying to attack a hive when you can't even leave base without getting gibbed by fades or eaten by oni.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> All you can say.(<i><b>BRING EM BACK)</b></i>
<!--QuoteBegin-LionofSun+Mar 22 2005, 11:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LionofSun @ Mar 22 2005, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think Babblers should definately be brought back. ... Oh, and somebody get rid of Devour. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not kill two birds with one stone, replace devour with babblers! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Babblers were fun, babblers were cool but frankly I wouldnt want to give up any of the current gorge weapons.
What if you got it as a 3rd hive option? You get the 3rd hive & if you are gorge you see a option menu pop up that gives you the choice 'tween babblers & web? That way no single gorge could have both at the same time. It might even encourage some teamwork as 1 gorge could set up web traps while another spews out a babblers when a 'rine gets caught in the web.
<!--QuoteBegin-LionofSun+Mar 22 2005, 11:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LionofSun @ Mar 22 2005, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, and somebody get rid of Devour. It's the gayest ability ever devised. It works fine in Wc3 ....but not in NS. Even with Endurance aura...at least you can catch and kill Kodo's. The only time a good Onos dies is when they do something very stupid, or when they get blocked by idiot team-mates. Right now, all Devour is, is a way to annoy the hell out of players (not to mention instantly drive away newbies. "Look! I just downloaded this new mod where I can stare at the inside of an aliens colon for thirty seconds at a time! W00t!") with little to no repercussions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay....care to propose another ability that could be a good HA counter? There are a lot of things that people call "not fun" in this game, but in most cases they're just powerful abilities that don't show up often and/or take skill to use. Webs, devour, and xeno all fit into these categories; people also complain about jp-hmgs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And in CO, mass onos/fade is just hell. Focus fire can bring down one or two (though it takes tremendous team-work and mistakes being made on the part of the alien team) but the rest can easily over-run the marines. The marines best chance of victory is in fact early/mid-game. Shotty rushing a hive full of skulks offers a far greater chance of victory than trying to attack a hive when you can't even leave base without getting gibbed by fades or eaten by oni. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jeez, maybe that's why the default game limit is 15 minutes? In an average game, you'll get maybe 5 higher lifeforms in a 15v15 server. Maybe. And not all at one time, either. So, these "mass onos rushes" that people hate so much in CO shouldn't arrive until the timelimit's almost up, which means the marines are going to lose anyway.
Webs and xeno take skill and don't appear often? Webs are powerful, and devour doesn't appear often? I'm...not so sure. Anyone who isn't a newbie can do the first two adequately, webs are the mighty powerful rambo killers, and just taking myself for example as a frequent onos that devours all the time, I disagree. None are too fun...well maybe xeno is and being on the onos side of devour is, but webs just aren't fun. As a typical gamer, <i>spontaneous combustion of little dogs and people being eaten will always be funnier and cooler than making people stuck for a little while at a time</i>.
That said, I think babblers would be a more powerful attack that as a marine I would like a lot better than say the generic combat permagorge who just webs the hive all map or spits at a resupply marine who can do nothing really but sigh and wait for just one other alien or marine to come and end the pain.
Do you know what the counter to webs and devour are? Teamwork. While the gorge is webbing one marine, or even two, the third and fourth marine can shoot the gorge quickly and kill it. A devouring onos won't stay around long against a few hmg's. When I play combat, I don't even bother using devour unless there are HA marines. I know I will be redeemed long before the marine dies, so it is pointless.
<!--QuoteBegin-Splinter Steve?+Mar 22 2005, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Splinter Steve? @ Mar 22 2005, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Webs and xeno take skill and don't appear often? Webs are powerful, and devour doesn't appear often? I'm...not so sure. Anyone who isn't a newbie can do the first two adequately, webs are the mighty powerful rambo killers, and just taking myself for example as a frequent onos that devours all the time, I disagree. None are too fun...well maybe xeno is and being on the onos side of devour is, but webs just aren't fun. As a typical gamer, <i>spontaneous combustion of little dogs and people being eaten will always be funnier and cooler than making people stuck for a little while at a time</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I meant that xeno, web, and devour either take skill or are rare, not both. Being hive 3 abilities, webs and xeno don't appear often in classic games. Combat games are another story entirely, and I believe it would be in the best interests of this discussion if we don't muddy the waters further.
And yes, devour takes a fair amount of skill; not just aiming the attack itself (which is hard enough when marines crouch and jump around), but also knowing when to stomp, when to run, and when to call for lerk or fade backup. New players feel invincible when they onos - that's why they die so easily, because they've been on the opposing end of some cloak-devour onos in combat and they don't know how fragile this seemingly unstoppable creature is. I'd say that if you're on the receiving end of a good player using a 75 res lifeform's insta-kill attack, you shouldn't complain. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree with you on the devour thing completely, and onos indeed are very fragile if you can't handle it correctly, especially if the team is losing, I know this all too well.
Muddy waters would occur indeed, so I leave my present reasoning for my proponentship for babblers out there as a voice among many, hopefully at least the demand for the plugin has been made noted of <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay....care to propose another ability that could be a good HA counter? There are a lot of things that people call "not fun" in this game, but in most cases they're just powerful abilities that don't show up often and/or take skill to use. Webs, devour, and xeno all fit into these categories; people also complain about jp-hmgs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stomp is a beauty in and of itself, but if you want another alternative..how about (*snicker*) "Teamwork"? Sorry for the bitterness. In all seriousness, the problem with the alien team as a whole is that they experience the combine harvester effect. ****-tastic beyond belief in the hands of the incompetant...near unstoppable death machines in the hands of the skilled. This phenomenon is only exacerbated in higher level life-forms. Devour is particularly troublesome because it acts both as an "instakill" of sorts (insta-removal is really what is going on) and has the side effect of annoying the living hell out of the other team..to the point that the desire to play as a marine can be almost completely erased. Still, how else can aliens handle HA's? Well, it seems to me that Oni by themselves with just the aid of Stomp and perhaps a little skulk or three can chomp an entire train. No, I don't have a good devour replacement handy. Perhaps some form of attack that can penetrate HA damage reduction to a greater extent?
The difference between webs, Xeno and even JP/HMG is that they all have counters that are far more easily applicable. Devour's only counter is to try and kill the damn onos. That may seem simple in theory, but is living hell in practice. And it's side-effect of taking an enemy completely out of the game for 30 seconds and forcing them to look at an animated colon does little to promote enjoyment for the marines...or continued play for the newbies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jeez, maybe that's why the default game limit is 15 minutes? In an average game, you'll get maybe 5 higher lifeforms in a 15v15 server. Maybe. And not all at one time, either. So, these "mass onos rushes" that people hate so much in CO shouldn't arrive until the timelimit's almost up, which means the marines are going to lose anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theoretically, you are correct. Unfortunately, even those 5 higher life-forms can more or less solo the entire marine offensive if skilled. The power provided by the higher-life forms creates an exponential increase in power for the aliens (again, assuming competant players) that isn't seen with the marine team/technologies. Moreover, it has been my *personal* experience (take that with a grain of salt) that even in 15 minute games, far more than a measly 5 players can obtain higher-life forms(and well before the time limit), it's just that most don't. Either because they lack the skill, or simply wish to continue for the time being playing as an upgraded skulk.
Fades and Oni (fades especially) are the ultimate hit and run attackers. It's what they were designed to do. The problem is they do it too well. The FAQ has stated that the marine team will never receive a movement hampering upgrade of any sort....so the only thing you can do is try to throw yourself in the enemies path and hope you can stop em long enough for your buddies to get em...
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Mar 18 2005, 07:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 18 2005, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Marik Steele+Mar 18 2005, 08:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marik Steele @ Mar 18 2005, 08:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If and <i>only</i> if they had more respectable AI, I'd like to playtest them. I just doubt it could happen until NS:Source. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you played against the latest Whichbot v0.94g? They may be just good enough to change your mind. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for Emphisis
I've played vs these bots... when they dont' get stuck on ladders / walls (which happens even to seasoned vets due to engine bugs / limitations) they are quite often roaming in packs, kickin other people's ****... they ... are... good!
EDIT-
BTW- I wound up following one, trying to talk to the "guy" and find out where he was going... wasn't untill a REAL teamate laughed at me and told me it was a bot that I realized there were even Bots ON the server 0o'
BTW- I wound up following one, trying to talk to the "guy" and find out where he was going... wasn't untill a REAL teamate laughed at me and told me it was a bot that I realized there were even Bots ON the server 0o' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Owned. Think I need to get them then.
<!--QuoteBegin-eliotmat+Mar 20 2005, 04:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eliotmat @ Mar 20 2005, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bile bombs are largely ineffective in combat. Replacing them with babblers would be a nice change.
Babblers would be more effective in combat. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Steve FTW also. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First off eliot i wanna say ur an idiot... Since when are gorges supposed to be combat effiecent? THEY R SUPPORT LIKE LERKS NOT DAMN COMBAT ENGINEERS. Second Webs as a 3rd hive ability is kinda useless. If u have 3 hives whats the point in webbing anything unless u run into marine start and in that case ur putting support units into risk. I think that both webs, charge, and primal need to be changed.
finally OLD BLINK NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT BACK!!!111oneoneone.
<!--QuoteBegin-Beammeup+Mar 23 2005, 09:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beammeup @ Mar 23 2005, 09:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-eliotmat+Mar 20 2005, 04:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eliotmat @ Mar 20 2005, 04:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bile bombs are largely ineffective in combat. Replacing them with babblers would be a nice change.
Babblers would be more effective in combat. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Steve FTW also. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off eliot i wanna say ur an idiot... Since when are gorges supposed to be combat effiecent? THEY R SUPPORT LIKE LERKS NOT DAMN COMBAT ENGINEERS. Second Webs as a 3rd hive ability is kinda useless. If u have 3 hives whats the point in webbing anything unless u run into marine start and in that case ur putting support units into risk. I think that both webs, charge, and primal need to be changed.
finally OLD BLINK NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT BACK!!!111oneoneone. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Gorges are actually combat engineers. They build structures to aid the other aliens in battle as well as erect offensive towers. However, this aspect of the gorge is completely removed in combat. None of the other aliens are affected this way.
Babblers would give them a way to indirectly attack marines in combat.
This is why I think they'd be good for combat.
They'd be good in classic mode for reasons already mentioned in this thread.
i dont see how babblers throw off balance, when i used to play on the snake-den.org servers back in the 1.x days, if a team of gorges came to marine start to rape marines with babblers, all you needed were a couple of gls and the babblers and gorges were done for. especially on ns_tanith with the bottleneck in the halls.
in reality, adding babblers back causes unbalance issues? - no
on the other hand, they do eat the servers cpu for breakfast. on my old server (dual PIII 1000 with gig of ram) i used to have to dictate who could and couldnt use babblers, and mines because they would cause the server to crash and burn if everyone got spam happy.
if someone took the time to make another ai instead of using squeakgrenade.cpp and optimize it, we wouldnt have that problem of cpu eating. whichbot, hivemind and rcbot ai wouldnt do it, they also eat cpu like mad.
<!--QuoteBegin-GiGaBiTe+Mar 23 2005, 10:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GiGaBiTe @ Mar 23 2005, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if someone took the time to make another ai instead of using squeakgrenade.cpp and optimize it, we wouldnt have that problem of cpu eating. whichbot, hivemind and rcbot ai wouldnt do it, they also eat cpu like mad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *sigh* Ditch the penguin man. I can run 4 Whichbots vs 4 RCBots and add 4 humans with very little additional cpu usage.
The Whichbot's AI, PARTICULARLY v0.94g is superior and would work great on the babblers. Bring them back I say! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
think of it this way. 20 play server. 10 aliens. 5 gorges the 5 gorges rush marine start and spam 5 babblers each. Can you Server handle 25 witchbots & 20 players?? + all the extra damage calculations and crap like that.
I thought they were fine how they were. The snark behavior/AI was ample (perhaps a bit of whichbot tweaking wouldn't hurt, depot <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ).
I've seen 20 or more snarks running around on HL DM servers 6 years ago with 20 people and it didn't slow the servers a bit. The behavior also helped marines decide what were real skulks and what were babblers.
Also, server hardware has significantly improved since <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(dual PIII 1000 with gig of ram)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since now we are talking about mostly dual p4 or xeons 2ghz with gig+ of DDR or better.
Webs were effective back in 1.04 HMG+JP rushes, but now they MAYBE bottle marines up in MS at the very end of a drawn out game. Give us babblers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Mar 23 2005, 09:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 23 2005, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-GiGaBiTe+Mar 23 2005, 10:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GiGaBiTe @ Mar 23 2005, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if someone took the time to make another ai instead of using squeakgrenade.cpp and optimize it, we wouldnt have that problem of cpu eating. whichbot, hivemind and rcbot ai wouldnt do it, they also eat cpu like mad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *sigh* Ditch the penguin man. I can run 4 Whichbots vs 4 RCBots and add 4 humans with very little additional cpu usage.
The Whichbot's AI, PARTICULARLY v0.94g is superior and would work great on the babblers. Bring them back I say! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol im not ditching linux. and my server is dual boot, i have the exact same everything on both my windows and linux server. windows 2000 for the win side and fedora for the linux side.
i get the same result for both of them, but windows pulls in the lead in cpu usage.
the best bot for the hl engine that i can find is foxbot, and thats for tfc. i can have an entire server of them (30 + 2 players) and it uses less cpu time than 4 vs 4 rcbots and 4 humans vs 4 whichbots.
ZavaroTucson, ArizonaJoin Date: 2005-02-14Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited March 2005
I can run 30 whichbots vs 2 people without any lag (and barely any CPU usage) on a listen server... whichbots have the least amount of CPU usage, of any of the three bots. I think whichbots would have a perfect use of becoming the new babblers. Plus, NS is more demanding that TFC... as far as I've seen on my windows and fedora servers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Death by bullets+Mar 23 2005, 03:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Death by bullets @ Mar 23 2005, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i think thats the reason he wants babblers back, to make gorges more combat effective. Although I doubt it would....I WANT BABBLERS BACK <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you insane? web up some marines and then lay a couple babblers on them. Without the ability to shoot the babblers they would be slaugtered in seconds.
I still think cutting down on the ammount of babblers would be the most effective way to save cpu power. Allowing a gorge to spawn one single, competent babbler that has full caraspace on it would prove more effective, and the best way to balance it so pro-rine players don't have a hissyfit, is to make the babbler a gorge. Like said before, if your a gorge, and you spawn another gorge, now you can heal, build, and bile twice as fast. But that doesent mean you can spam the marine base like you could with babblers. It also provides defense as rines will have to figure which one is the real gorge, which makes a great defense when building Rts.
Comments
Thus, replace with babblers <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Babblers would be more effective in combat. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Steve FTW also.
Oh, and somebody get rid of Devour. It's the gayest ability ever devised. It works fine in Wc3 ....but not in NS. Even with Endurance aura...at least you can catch and kill Kodo's. The only time a good Onos dies is when they do something very stupid, or when they get blocked by idiot team-mates. Right now, all Devour is, is a way to annoy the hell out of players (not to mention instantly drive away newbies. "Look! I just downloaded this new mod where I can stare at the inside of an aliens colon for thirty seconds at a time! W00t!") with little to no repercussions.
And in CO, mass onos/fade is just hell. Focus fire can bring down one or two (though it takes tremendous team-work and mistakes being made on the part of the alien team) but the rest can easily over-run the marines. The marines best chance of victory is in fact early/mid-game. Shotty rushing a hive full of skulks offers a far greater chance of victory than trying to attack a hive when you can't even leave base without getting gibbed by fades or eaten by oni.
p.s. Hi Everybody, its me, Hunter! Go steve/matt!
Why not kill two birds with one stone, replace devour with babblers! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Saant
What if you got it as a 3rd hive option? You get the 3rd hive & if you are gorge you see a option menu pop up that gives you the choice 'tween babblers & web? That way no single gorge could have both at the same time. It might even encourage some teamwork as 1 gorge could set up web traps while another spews out a babblers when a 'rine gets caught in the web.
Okay....care to propose another ability that could be a good HA counter? There are a lot of things that people call "not fun" in this game, but in most cases they're just powerful abilities that don't show up often and/or take skill to use. Webs, devour, and xeno all fit into these categories; people also complain about jp-hmgs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And in CO, mass onos/fade is just hell. Focus fire can bring down one or two (though it takes tremendous team-work and mistakes being made on the part of the alien team) but the rest can easily over-run the marines. The marines best chance of victory is in fact early/mid-game. Shotty rushing a hive full of skulks offers a far greater chance of victory than trying to attack a hive when you can't even leave base without getting gibbed by fades or eaten by oni. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jeez, maybe that's why the default game limit is 15 minutes? In an average game, you'll get maybe 5 higher lifeforms in a 15v15 server. Maybe. And not all at one time, either. So, these "mass onos rushes" that people hate so much in CO shouldn't arrive until the timelimit's almost up, which means the marines are going to lose anyway.
That said, I think babblers would be a more powerful attack that as a marine I would like a lot better than say the generic combat permagorge who just webs the hive all map or spits at a resupply marine who can do nothing really but sigh and wait for just one other alien or marine to come and end the pain.
I meant that xeno, web, and devour either take skill or are rare, not both. Being hive 3 abilities, webs and xeno don't appear often in classic games. Combat games are another story entirely, and I believe it would be in the best interests of this discussion if we don't muddy the waters further.
And yes, devour takes a fair amount of skill; not just aiming the attack itself (which is hard enough when marines crouch and jump around), but also knowing when to stomp, when to run, and when to call for lerk or fade backup. New players feel invincible when they onos - that's why they die so easily, because they've been on the opposing end of some cloak-devour onos in combat and they don't know how fragile this seemingly unstoppable creature is. I'd say that if you're on the receiving end of a good player using a 75 res lifeform's insta-kill attack, you shouldn't complain. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Muddy waters would occur indeed, so I leave my present reasoning for my proponentship for babblers out there as a voice among many, hopefully at least the demand for the plugin has been made noted of <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Stomp is a beauty in and of itself, but if you want another alternative..how about (*snicker*) "Teamwork"? Sorry for the bitterness. In all seriousness, the problem with the alien team as a whole is that they experience the combine harvester effect. ****-tastic beyond belief in the hands of the incompetant...near unstoppable death machines in the hands of the skilled. This phenomenon is only exacerbated in higher level life-forms. Devour is particularly troublesome because it acts both as an "instakill" of sorts (insta-removal is really what is going on) and has the side effect of annoying the living hell out of the other team..to the point that the desire to play as a marine can be almost completely erased. Still, how else can aliens handle HA's? Well, it seems to me that Oni by themselves with just the aid of Stomp and perhaps a little skulk or three can chomp an entire train. No, I don't have a good devour replacement handy. Perhaps some form of attack that can penetrate HA damage reduction to a greater extent?
The difference between webs, Xeno and even JP/HMG is that they all have counters that are far more easily applicable. Devour's only counter is to try and kill the damn onos. That may seem simple in theory, but is living hell in practice. And it's side-effect of taking an enemy completely out of the game for 30 seconds and forcing them to look at an animated colon does little to promote enjoyment for the marines...or continued play for the newbies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jeez, maybe that's why the default game limit is 15 minutes? In an average game, you'll get maybe 5 higher lifeforms in a 15v15 server. Maybe. And not all at one time, either. So, these "mass onos rushes" that people hate so much in CO shouldn't arrive until the timelimit's almost up, which means the marines are going to lose anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Theoretically, you are correct. Unfortunately, even those 5 higher life-forms can more or less solo the entire marine offensive if skilled. The power provided by the higher-life forms creates an exponential increase in power for the aliens (again, assuming competant players) that isn't seen with the marine team/technologies. Moreover, it has been my *personal* experience (take that with a grain of salt) that even in 15 minute games, far more than a measly 5 players can obtain higher-life forms(and well before the time limit), it's just that most don't. Either because they lack the skill, or simply wish to continue for the time being playing as an upgraded skulk.
Fades and Oni (fades especially) are the ultimate hit and run attackers. It's what they were designed to do. The problem is they do it too well. The FAQ has stated that the marine team will never receive a movement hampering upgrade of any sort....so the only thing you can do is try to throw yourself in the enemies path and hope you can stop em long enough for your buddies to get em...
Too bad it doesn't seem to be working.
Have you played against the latest Whichbot v0.94g? They may be just good enough to change your mind. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for Emphisis
I've played vs these bots... when they dont' get stuck on ladders / walls (which happens even to seasoned vets due to engine bugs / limitations) they are quite often roaming in packs, kickin other people's ****... they ... are... good!
EDIT-
BTW- I wound up following one, trying to talk to the "guy" and find out where he was going... wasn't untill a REAL teamate laughed at me and told me it was a bot that I realized there were even Bots ON the server 0o'
EDIT-
BTW- I wound up following one, trying to talk to the "guy" and find out where he was going... wasn't untill a REAL teamate laughed at me and told me it was a bot that I realized there were even Bots ON the server 0o' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Owned. Think I need to get them then.
Babblers would be more effective in combat. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Steve FTW also. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off eliot i wanna say ur an idiot... Since when are gorges supposed to be combat effiecent? THEY R SUPPORT LIKE LERKS NOT DAMN COMBAT ENGINEERS. Second Webs as a 3rd hive ability is kinda useless. If u have 3 hives whats the point in webbing anything unless u run into marine start and in that case ur putting support units into risk. I think that both webs, charge, and primal need to be changed.
finally OLD BLINK NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT BACK!!!111oneoneone.
Babblers would be more effective in combat. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::hive::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/hive5.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='hive5.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Steve FTW also. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off eliot i wanna say ur an idiot... Since when are gorges supposed to be combat effiecent? THEY R SUPPORT LIKE LERKS NOT DAMN COMBAT ENGINEERS. Second Webs as a 3rd hive ability is kinda useless. If u have 3 hives whats the point in webbing anything unless u run into marine start and in that case ur putting support units into risk. I think that both webs, charge, and primal need to be changed.
finally OLD BLINK NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT BACK!!!111oneoneone. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorges are actually combat engineers. They build structures to aid the other aliens in battle as well as erect offensive towers. However, this aspect of the gorge is completely removed in combat. None of the other aliens are affected this way.
Babblers would give them a way to indirectly attack marines in combat.
This is why I think they'd be good for combat.
They'd be good in classic mode for reasons already mentioned in this thread.
in reality, adding babblers back causes unbalance issues? - no
on the other hand, they do eat the servers cpu for breakfast. on my old server (dual PIII 1000 with gig of ram) i used to have to dictate who could and couldnt use babblers, and mines because they would cause the server to crash and burn if everyone got spam happy.
if someone took the time to make another ai instead of using squeakgrenade.cpp and optimize it, we wouldnt have that problem of cpu eating. whichbot, hivemind and rcbot ai wouldnt do it, they also eat cpu like mad.
*sigh* Ditch the penguin man. I can run 4 Whichbots vs 4 RCBots and add 4 humans with very little additional cpu usage.
The Whichbot's AI, PARTICULARLY v0.94g is superior and would work great on the babblers. Bring them back I say! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
5 gorges
the 5 gorges rush marine start and spam 5 babblers each.
Can you Server handle 25 witchbots & 20 players?? + all the extra damage calculations and crap like that.
I've seen 20 or more snarks running around on HL DM servers 6 years ago with 20 people and it didn't slow the servers a bit. The behavior also helped marines decide what were real skulks and what were babblers.
Also, server hardware has significantly improved since <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(dual PIII 1000 with gig of ram)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since now we are talking about mostly dual p4 or xeons 2ghz with gig+ of DDR or better.
Webs were effective back in 1.04 HMG+JP rushes, but now they MAYBE bottle marines up in MS at the very end of a drawn out game. Give us babblers.
*sigh* Ditch the penguin man. I can run 4 Whichbots vs 4 RCBots and add 4 humans with very little additional cpu usage.
The Whichbot's AI, PARTICULARLY v0.94g is superior and would work great on the babblers. Bring them back I say! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol im not ditching linux. and my server is dual boot, i have the exact same everything on both my windows and linux server. windows 2000 for the win side and fedora for the linux side.
i get the same result for both of them, but windows pulls in the lead in cpu usage.
the best bot for the hl engine that i can find is foxbot, and thats for tfc. i can have an entire server of them (30 + 2 players) and it uses less cpu time than 4 vs 4 rcbots and 4 humans vs 4 whichbots.
Are you insane? web up some marines and then lay a couple babblers on them. Without the ability to shoot the babblers they would be slaugtered in seconds.
maybe in NS sawce
Like said before, if your a gorge, and you spawn another gorge, now you can heal, build, and bile twice as fast. But that doesent mean you can spam the marine base like you could with babblers. It also provides defense as rines will have to figure which one is the real gorge, which makes a great defense when building Rts.