Hit-and-run
Status_Quo
Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25749Members
Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25749Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Possible to remove?</div> I made a post a while ago that got me thinking about this. I'll make a few statements. Just say if I'm wrong about something.
1) As long as a player has something to lose, he will try not to.
2) Hit-and-run is the least risky combat tactics for any life form.
2a) The way aliens are currently balanced, anything but hit-and-run is high-risk.
3) Aliens should be killable regardless of tactics.
From these, you can derive a few more:
4) The only way you can encourage people not to hit-and-run is to strengthen the life form (health/armor/damage etc.) and thus make assaults less risky.
5) Aliens strong enough to stand a reasonable chance of surviving an assault will be nearly invulnerable if using hit-and-run.
6) If there are two options, players will pick the least risky one regardless of how small the risk is.
From these, I've come to the conclusion that it is impossible to prevent hit-and-run tactics (something which people complain the Onos is only good for) by simply adjusting the balance. There is only one way that you can prevent it, and that would be to remove the 1st by making higher life forms no more valuable than lower. This can be done by a) switching to a class-based system, or b) making a life form upgrade permanent.
Now, I have some questions:
a) Is there anything wrong with that reasoning?
b) Assuming "no" to A, can you see another solution?
1) As long as a player has something to lose, he will try not to.
2) Hit-and-run is the least risky combat tactics for any life form.
2a) The way aliens are currently balanced, anything but hit-and-run is high-risk.
3) Aliens should be killable regardless of tactics.
From these, you can derive a few more:
4) The only way you can encourage people not to hit-and-run is to strengthen the life form (health/armor/damage etc.) and thus make assaults less risky.
5) Aliens strong enough to stand a reasonable chance of surviving an assault will be nearly invulnerable if using hit-and-run.
6) If there are two options, players will pick the least risky one regardless of how small the risk is.
From these, I've come to the conclusion that it is impossible to prevent hit-and-run tactics (something which people complain the Onos is only good for) by simply adjusting the balance. There is only one way that you can prevent it, and that would be to remove the 1st by making higher life forms no more valuable than lower. This can be done by a) switching to a class-based system, or b) making a life form upgrade permanent.
Now, I have some questions:
a) Is there anything wrong with that reasoning?
b) Assuming "no" to A, can you see another solution?
Comments
Is it easy or hard to kill a Lerk/Fade/Onos that use hit-and-run with small group of marines with reasonable upgrades/equipment?
Is it easy or hard to kill a Lerk/Fade/Onos not using hit-and-run under the same conditions?
I assume the answer would be along the lines of "hard" on #1 and "easy" on #2 (relative). Which leads to the next question.
If the Lerk/Fade/Onos is balanced to be reasonably difficult to kill when not using hit-and-run, how easy or hard will it be to kill when using hit-and-run compared to the first question above?
really, i think aliens are good as it is. and i would cry if NS <b>ever</b> turned class based, and for a permanant life form upgrade. That would just equal suicide Onos' which would be no fun (except, unless they did some kind of <b>super</b> Xenocide <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
I think it's good as it is, it's not like hit and run is a noobish tactic or anything.
You didn't answer the question(s) though.
A situation equivalent to the one you're proposing could be say... 3-4 redeeming onos charging in and every one of them redeems (say like the marines can't kill a single one). Instead of a hit-and-run tactic, you end up with bum-rushing aliens, which isn't bad but it could easily be overpower.
Can you clarify your position a bit more?
EDIT: Can you give a more concrete example of what you're suggesting is trying to accomplish in the long run in removing hit and run?
If you buff lifeforms so that they can stand alone against whole marine team; Think how easy it will be with a bunch of them...
I'm not proposing anything. I do have a thread in I&S, but while it does bring up the topic of classes (among other things), it's more or less completely unrelated to this. I'm making a few statements, giving you a conclusion, and asking if I'm correct and if there are any other possible ways to do something.
Possibly, I'm trying to make people realize that complaining about Onos not being the tank they are supposed to be yet expect nothing but small tweaks is not reasonable. As long as my reasoning is correct, that is.
But if you want my position, yes, I do believe NS should be class-based. It is for completely different reasons than mentioned above however, which would at best be a fortunate side-effect. It is also completely irrelevant.
It'll definitely make the game more sastifying for the marine side instead of seeing a fade whizzing by, killing an HA, and then blinking by again out of danger with bullets flying everywhere. You end up with an push-battle with both sides duking it out. This sounds moreorless what CO is doing, really, or at least what they're trying to aim at.
The gameplay variations are hidden in the variety of the classes... and how they depend each other... If you buff a class to a point where it stands alone... You both loose its dependency on the other classes which make it overpowered; but also game variations
Either Status Quo's point is not getting across, or you guys just don't want to answer his question. It's really quite simple: how do you balance the onos so that it would be possible for it to NOT be a hit-and-run alien, while at the same time knowing that there most players will hit-and-run no matter what because it's safer. Sure an onos with 600 more hp than the one we have now could run in and slaughter a whole squad of marines and most likely it wouldn't have to run away, but that same onos will be INVINCIBLE if you use hit-and-run tactics, which are boring, less atmospheric, and take much longer, but the end result will always be the buffed onos slaughters the squad.
So how do you turn the onos into a charging beast without just turning it into a near-immortal hit-and-run nuisance is the real question he's asking.
a) Is my reasoning correct or not, and
b) Are there other methods than those I mentioned by which you can remove hit-and-run <b>or otherwise create an option which is also viable in most scenarios</b>.
Dear God, people. Is it so hard to simply answer questions? I shudder to think how you're doing in school if this is how you do it.
"What is the capital of Canada?"
"Well, whether a nation should have a capital is a complicated question. While it may be necessary to centralize..."
Now, some might think I'm being sarcastic here, and God, I wish I was, but no. That's exactly what you're doing right now, and I can't understand why. I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry.
2a) The way aliens are currently balanced, anything but hit-and-run is high-risk.
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Yes Hit-and-run is the least risky combat tactic besides hiding at your hive. Any way the aliens are made will make anything but hit-and-run a high risk venture, if marines overpower the alien by numbers and technology, it will always have the risk of dying. Only way to have the alien just charge in and try to kill everything before dying is either making the said alien almost impossible to kill, thus making 2 of those aliens definately impossible OR the alien has enough res to regestate into the same alien.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) Aliens should be killable regardless of tactics.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure what kind of tactics you are talking about but aliens shouldn't be killable without some sort of tactics, besides the skulk, gorge, and maybe even lerk. A ramboing marine will almost always die to a fade or onos if that fade/onos is controlled by a good and careful player. It usually takes atleast 2, usually 3+ marines with some sort of plan to take down a good and careful fade/onos.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) The only way you can encourage people not to hit-and-run is to strengthen the life form (health/armor/damage etc.) and thus make assaults less risky.
5) Aliens strong enough to stand a reasonable chance of surviving an assault will be nearly invulnerable if using hit-and-run.
6) If there are two options, players will pick the least risky one regardless of how small the risk is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe they will still use hit and run, like what I said in my first reply to this forum post, it'll just take them longer to decide to run away unless they accomplish their objective. Hitting and running is always the smaller risk option unless the alien knows that he will most likely survive the encounter against what he is about to hit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b) Are there other methods than those I mentioned by which you can remove hit-and-run or otherwise create an option which is also viable in most scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, hit-and-run is always an option unless the aliens are near invicible. Aliens are the more singleminded side as in they must harness and hoard their own res where as if marines die, they can always be reequipped if the commander has the res. If marines run out of res or lose protolab, any surviving heavies usually stay at base or phase in and out of hot spots, aka hit-and-run.
a) Yes, your reasoning with hit and run is correct, but you forget the importance of speed. Because aliens are much faster than marines, aliens will want to use this advantage of speed as much as possible. I can't think of another tactic expect hit-and-run that uses speed to it's maximum advantage.
b) Well, the only way I can think possible to discourage hit-and-run is that aliens can't have a 'regenerate' stage where they can go and heal. But that itself is a bad way to go.
Removing the idea that aliens have nothing to lose will reduce the amount of hit-and-run, but it's still going to happen.
Another way of reducing hit-and-run possibly is the amount of damage dealt during a speedy attack. Say like the first hit is 1/2 the damage, second is full damage, third is 3/2 the damage, etc.
Uh... that's all I can think of on the top of my head.
Disable backwards movement and integrate locational damage, so that Onos gets quarter damage from front; but 4 times damage from back and sides...
No more hit and run... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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There, I feel slightly better now. But let's move on to people who actually did manage to read something.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Not sure what kind of tactics you are talking about but aliens shouldn't be killable without some sort of tactics<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should you be able to kill an alien that assault the enemy as well as an alien that do hit-and-runs? Or should one of the tactics result in an alien that is impossible (or extremely hard) to kill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hitting and running is always the smaller risk option unless the alien knows that he will most likely survive the encounter against what he is about to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Certainly, but can you work around that so that an assault is viable? I'm not aware of any situation in which higher life forms assault, except at the end game (when res does not matter much, and even then it's more common with hit-and-run) and in combat mode (where the alien life form is worthless and thus you have nothing to lose). Can you make assaults viable yet keep hit-and-run balanced without reducing the life forms value to nothing?
Perhaps I should clarify. I'm not looking for something to remove, or even discourage hit-and-run (though that is semantics and I really thought people could read between the lines on that one. I should've said: encourage non-hit-and-run attacks. It's the same thing of course, but there seem to be a number of misunderstandings going on...). I am however, looking for something that will make assaults viable without overpowering hit-and-run beyond reason (which in turn would make the new option pointless). Can there be two or more options even if one of them is less risky than the others?
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't think of another tactic expect hit-and-run that uses speed to it's maximum advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speed is also important for moving across the map. If you move twice as fast to an area as your enemy, you can aford to die twice as much (not really, but the metaphor is close enough). Not to mention evading. That's not the point though, people don't assault with higher life forms because if they do, they risk dying and thus losing a lot of resources. They do assault in combat, because they lose nothing. The option is not the most valid because of speed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Removing the idea that aliens have nothing to lose will reduce the amount of hit-and-run, but it's still going to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it will. I have no illusion of any changes making death better than life. The important thing is that there will be assaults and some of them will be successful.
Actually, yesterday on the C.A.P. public server, ns_eclipse, aliens had 1 hive and CC about 75% done. Then someone said 'Oh nos, they built a PG and TF at CC, preparing to seige!' So, I decided to sacrifice my fade on a base rush, Arms Lab 0 bars left, oh well. Then I went onos since I killed a bunch of marines for res. Regen onos at 1 hive and I waited for the 2nd hive to go up, knowing I have a better chance of living a little longer. However, my main objective was to take down the PG and siege, or atleast the marines guarding it so we don't lose our precious 2nd hive, being that eclipse is already marine sided as it is. Waited till 2nd hive goes up, I rushed into 5 SGs and 2 LMGs, managed to kill all of them except for the last 1 that managed to pistol me while a lerk was giving me partial umbra. They had 4 sieges built haphazardly so it was difficult but I manage to kill the marines that were slaughtering the skulks who were trying to take out the sieges. By doing so, my team quickly followed and poured onto the PG, killing it and then saving the hive from destruction.
There will always be different situations that calls upon a possible all out rush even with higher lifeforms in the game, it just depends on the situation AND on the players of the higher lifeform, whether THEY feel it is necessary to sacrifice said lifeform, or if they are willing at all. So for me to make an all-out assault as say an onos requires no boost to the creature itself, it just depends on the situation at hand, cost vs gains. Was it worth sacrificing 75 res to take out PG, TF, 4 Sieges plus saving the hive? I thought so, others might not agree.
What the hell kind of game could you possibly make off of that? Hit-n-run is the only way to balance NS and make it fun. Hit-n-run exists in almost all games but it only makes sense that if you have speed, mobility, and melee, you will resort to hit and run tactics.
I think devour should be replaced/nerfed- the onos should be in the thick of it, and eating the lmg bullets, all it does now is turn tail at the sight of a HMG
What the hell kind of game could you possibly make off of that? Hit-n-run is the only way to balance NS and make it fun. Hit-n-run exists in almost all games but it only makes sense that if you have speed, mobility, and melee, you will resort to hit and run tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a lot more than hit-and-run tactics. Ambushing for one. Baiting is another.
After giving a bit more thought about it... hit-and-run tactics is basically the easiest tactic for an alien to do. It's individual and you have a high chance of survival rely on... yourself.
The other tactics, such as rushing in and destroying everything requires teamwork. Instead of relying yourself, you end up relying on say... a gorge to heal you while in combat or a lerk that umbras while you're taking all those nasty hits. It really requires a bit more teamwork that you just don't see in the average pub game.
I think the reason why the other tactics aren't used is not because they're not effective... they're highly effective. It's because you have to rely on a teammate and if you're in a pub match, chances are you rather rely on your own skill rather than a teammate that you have no idea how well he'll do in support or working together.
That's my take on it.
What the hell kind of game could you possibly make off of that? Hit-n-run is the only way to balance NS and make it fun. Hit-n-run exists in almost all games but it only makes sense that if you have speed, mobility, and melee, you will resort to hit and run tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a lot more than hit-and-run tactics. Ambushing for one. Baiting is another.
After giving a bit more thought about it... hit-and-run tactics is basically the easiest tactic for an alien to do. It's individual and you have a high chance of survival rely on... yourself.
The other tactics, such as rushing in and destroying everything requires teamwork. Instead of relying yourself, you end up relying on say... a gorge to heal you while in combat or a lerk that umbras while you're taking all those nasty hits. It really requires a bit more teamwork that you just don't see in the average pub game.
I think the reason why the other tactics aren't used is not because they're not effective... they're highly effective. It's because you have to rely on a teammate and if you're in a pub match, chances are you rather rely on your own skill rather than a teammate that you have no idea how well he'll do in support or working together.
That's my take on it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is dead wrong, go watch a high level profiled demo and you will see people working together, doing hit and runs, just to get <b>1</b> kill against a decent marine team.
<a href='ftp://ns:ns@cri-hacks.com/' target='_blank'>FTP to CAL FINAL HLTV demo.</a>
Watch.