While it is just a humor piece I think it brings up an important issue, the majority of the American people could care less. It's well known that many people have no idea what is going on in politics, at best a general knowledge from skimming the headlines in the paper.
Now when people start to see things like F 9/11 and have no other sources to get news from, they are going to take what they hear in that movie as fact.
Instead of this finger pointing and constant infighting that seems to paralyze our government, the very best we could hope for is a patriotic rallying of the people. But sadly it seems the memory of 9/11 has faded in the minds of people in our far to fast paced culture, if it doesn’t affect them, it's not a problem. So people hear a little bit about this, they hear Bush did that, they see F 9/11, they form an opinion based on these things slowly over time. Of course no one feels strongly enough to do anything, that would interfere with their precious lives, and let’s not forget American Idol is on at 8:00. A general apathy, a sort of self hatred seems to be spreading across the country. I'm all fine and good with patriotism disappearing, but only if it means world unification. This sort of dismantling from the inside will bring nothing but trouble.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 30 2004, 05:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 30 2004, 05:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> today, we have NONE of that. the only protest you hear is "bush is a moron." that can be said about more than a few presidents and mean the same thing.
so why NOW, and not at any other time, are people so desperate to make this man look BAD? why do people hate the US military? why do people not give half a s* that so many americans died on sept. 11th? why can't people see the logic in meeting the enemy at THEIR doorstep, and not ours??
the death ratio in the united states as of 911 is USA 19, Terrorism a thousand something.
i am truly saddened that this doesn't mean a damn thing to people anymore.
America is a fighting country. we bring the fight to the enemy, ESPECIALLY if we are attacked first. when.. where.. WHO changed that? WHAT is different? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) The only protest you allow yourself to hear is 'Bush is a moron'. People on the right (Hannity, O'Reilly, et al) have instilled the connection in peoples' minds that any criticism of Bush equals simple Bush hating. Please try to pay attention to the issues raised, because there is some valid criticism out there.
2)Oh, yes, people critical of Bush also 'hate' the military. If you do not fall into line and give the president a blank check to use them in any way he chooses, it is obviously because you 'hate' them.
Incidentally, when Dr. Wolfowitz, one of the key architects of the Iraq war, mis-stated the number of combat deaths by 200 before the Senate, was this because he 'loves' the military?
3)Caring about 9/11 and caring about Iraq are two different issues. One took resources away from the other. I want Bin Laden captured or dead. Until that happens, I can give a rat's **** about Saddam Hussein.
But since I don't fall into lock step with Bush, therefore I hate the country, the military, Mom, apple pie, and all that.
Out of curiosity, when was the Bush administration and their supporters given the exclusive license for love of country?
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 30 2004, 12:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 30 2004, 12:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> we can disagree, but to what end do people like MM pass disagreement, even VIOLENT disagreement, into defamation? even slander? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In order for something to be slander it must be false. As I said, if someone can find a quibble with the facts of the film, make it known, and lambast Michael Moore all you want for it.
The film doesn't disagree with fighting back. In fact, one of the points that it makes is that the military response to 9/11 was far too restrained. Moore argues that we should have gone into Afghanistan immediately, and with far more troops.
Iraq is an entirely different matter. This threatens to take the thread off topic, but there is absolutely no evidence that Saddam had any connection to 9/11, and there is no credible reason to believe that he did.
If the style of F911 turned you off, you should go see a documentary called "Control Room" which I personally thought was much better. The primary focus of the film is on Al Jazeera, the only significant independant news source in the arab world. There is one clip that I will take with me for the rest of my life. It showed an iraqi boy, who couldn't be more that 10 or 12, pushing through a crowd of people to the camera. He screamed with tears streaming down his face, "This is freedom? This is liberation? You blow up our houses and kill our families? You kill my sister?" The worst part is that he wasn't being crazy, or even illogical when he called for the destruction of the United States. He just wanted his sister back. Do you think he's going to remember 10 years down the road that the soldiers had good intentions? Do you think he's even going to remember the atrocities of Saddam? He is going to remember that the United States killed his sister under the pretense of liberating him.
Now ask yourself. We didn't remove any terrorists in Iraq, and we are creating more. How is this progress?
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 30 2004, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 30 2004, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the style of F911 turned you off, you should go see a documentary called "Control Room" which I personally thought was much better. The primary focus of the film is on Al Jazeera, the only significant independant news source in the arab world. There is one clip that I will take with me for the rest of my life. It showed an iraqi boy, who couldn't be more that 10 or 12, pushing through a croud of people to the camera. He screamed with tears streaming down his face, "This is freedom? This is liberation? You blow up our houses and kill our families? You kill my sister?" The worst part is that he wasn't being crazy, or even illogical when he called for the destruction of the United States. He just wanted his sister back. Do you think he's going to remember 10 years down the road that the soldiers had good intentions? Do you think he's even going to remember the atrocities of Saddam? He is going to remember that the United States killed his sister under the pretense of liberating him.
Now ask yourself. We didn't remove any terrorists in Iraq, and we are creating more. How is this progress? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if we would have done a proper carpet bombing we could have got the kid too. Now we have another terrorist on our hands.
I have no problem with starting a democracy in Iraq, but we need to break a few eggs to make an omelet. We should be evacuating Falluja, like we have done before, and then destroying the city. We should be using tanks and APC's in place of hummers. We should be bombing suspected enemy hideouts.
America has forgotten how to fight a war, a lesson learned well during the Civil War.
I agree completely that we should have committed much more to Afghanistan, but lets not say we don't have the ability to handle Iraq as well, we more then have the ability, were just not using it.
I could go on about how lives could have been saved if the military would have applied the proper force at the right time, but it just makes me mad and it won't change a damn thing.
American soldiers are dieing because the American populace can't deal with civilian casualties, or anything which might trigger their pseudo-sympathy impulses for that particular lunch break.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 30 2004, 12:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 30 2004, 12:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well if we would have done a proper carpet bombing we could have got the kid too. Now we have another terrorist on our hands. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let me make sure I'm reading this correctly. Your strategy is to kill everyone so that there's no one left to become a terrorist?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->American soldiers are dieing because the American populace can't deal with civilian casualties, or anything which might trigger their pseudo-sympathy impulses for that particular lunch break.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even dismissing that little thing called morality, the more civilians you kill, the more terrorists you create.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 30 2004, 01:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 30 2004, 01:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me make sure I'm reading this correctly. Your strategy is to kill everyone so that there's no one left to become a terrorist?
Even dismissing that little thing called morality, the more civilians you kill, the more terrorists you create. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I was making a joke because it most likely wasn't us that killed his sister. Although it is indirectly our fault. I'm not going to play the fake sympathy game, and pretend I care about that boy because the fact is I don't, and nether do you, nor does anyone else in this country really. He’s just one more example people can use to deface the war.
Perhaps I should elaborate a bit on my strategy. Like I said we have the ability to evacuate the civilian population from urban areas in Iraq, we have done it before in Falluja. Now after that was done we sent in troops to do messy, street by street fighting, which gained very little but the loss of some of our soldiers lives. I believe it ended with us letting most of Sauders militia walk away from the city. That was absurd, we should have shot them all as they left. Even before that we should have turned that city into rubble. It will cost us more in the long run then it would to rebuild the city from scratch. "Oh but what about the mosques" To bad, they used them to fire on our troops, they are no longer holy. We blew up churches in WWII, just send us the check.
Like I said we have forgotten how to fight a war, we have learned how to play a mind numbing PR game with our soldier’s lives.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 30 2004, 06:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 30 2004, 06:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, I was making a joke because it most likely wasn't us that killed his sister. Although it is indirectly our fault. I'm not going to play the fake sympathy game, and pretend I care about that boy because the fact is I don't, and nether do you, nor does anyone else in this country really. He’s just one more example people can use to deface the war.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Honestly, how <b>you know what</b> dare you? This is the most singularly arrogant, condescending piece of BS I have read on these boards.
Conversely, I can just say that your pseudo-sympathy for the victims of 9/11 is the justification you and your ilk use to push your political agenda.
<!--QuoteBegin-BathroomMonkey+Jun 30 2004, 01:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Jun 30 2004, 01:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, how <b>you know what</b> dare you? This is the most singularly arrogant, condescending piece of BS I have read on these boards.
Conversely, I can just say that your pseudo-sympathy for the victims of 9/11 is the justification you and your ilk use to push your political agenda.
Prove me different. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just saying what needs to be said. Of course in our PC world something like that is completely unacceptable to spite how true it really is. Do you personally care about that Iraqi boy?
To be honest 9/11 angered me, and for some time I did feel a sort of loss, a sense of horror, mainly anger though. Now I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me, but I have had allot of personal loss in my family so I realize my sympathy for others is severely dulled, and I don't feel genuine sympathy for 9/11 but more a sense of reverence to countrymen that have died.
But to say I feel sorry for people half a world away that I have never met, would be a stretch, for allot of people I know, when they fell like telling me the truth, it is the same.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 30 2004, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 30 2004, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm just saying what needs to be said. Of course in our PC world something like that is completely unacceptable to spite how true it really is. Do you personally care about that Iraqi boy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're entitled to your feelings, but don't project them onto the population as a whole and assume that it's somehow the standard.
I guess that's all I have to say, because I'm not getting into a debate over who is entitled to feel what, and I don't feel any necessity to prove that my gut feelings are genuine.
Edit: It does bother me when I am told that I don't have true sympathy for these people, or I <i>can't</i>, or that somehow my sympathy betrays the memory of those who lost their lives on 9/11, or the loss of our troops*. <i>Sigh</i>.
*not that you said this, but in general sometimes this implication is made within the media.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Furthermore, gut feelings are pretty much irrelevant. I would hope that one makes their political decisions based on rationality, responsibility, morality, and sound information, not gut feeling. I don't hold it against someone if they don't feel sympathy, that is afterall out of their control. However, refusing to recognize the global moral implications of actions and substituting a blind "If I haven't met them, I don't care" is deplorable. I don't care if you feel it or not. You have a responsibility to care. (I also find it pretty ironic reasa that a page ago you were lamenting the apathy of the american public.)
I agree with reasa - I don't "care" about the 10 year old. Yes, it is sad, yes, I feel sorry for the bugger, but I am not going to do anything about it.
I also agree about our inablity to fight a proper war. It is all PR now days. Did you know that we have lost less people in this whole war that were lost in minor battles in any other war? If anything, we should be thanking our military for not killing civilians and not causing unnecessary deaths. They have done remarkably well - go read up on the numbers from Vietnam, or WWII or heck, even Persian Gulf war.
As for you who "care" about them - go help them. Go sign up in the military - become an engineer - go give them electricity and water. Kill the terrorist hiding behind them. Give em a candy bar. Go give your life for that kid. Go tell him you are sorry for his sister, and then teach him about his new freedoms. As far as I am concerned, the most liberal amongst you should be the most eager to help.
As for the movie - well MM can sign his own petition and go join the war effort. To me, that would be a more constructive use of his time and energy than flaimbaiting our troops and stripping away what little national pride we have. If Americans don't belive in America, who will?
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-BathroomMonkey+Jun 30 2004, 09:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Jun 30 2004, 09:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1) The only protest you allow yourself to hear is 'Bush is a moron'. People on the right (Hannity, O'Reilly, et al) have instilled the connection in peoples' minds that any criticism of Bush equals simple Bush hating. Please try to pay attention to the issues raised, because there is some valid criticism out there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you'll have to excuse me for thinking that the majority thinks "bush is a moron." i know there are valid arguments out there. i stated that.
but kids my age run around with this moron crap and don't know what the hell they're talking about.. or why. they talk about "pull out of iraq" like it's the same of "pull out" during sex, as if it's as easy as issuing a retreat order. don't get me wrong here, don't take me for just some other stupid kid. i know there are good arguments out there. that's why we have an election every four years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2)Oh, yes, people critical of Bush also 'hate' the military. If you do not fall into line and give the president a blank check to use them in any way he chooses, it is obviously because you 'hate' them. Incidentally, when Dr. Wolfowitz, one of the key architects of the Iraq war, mis-stated the number of combat deaths by 200 before the Senate, was this because he 'loves' the military? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, there are some military HATERS out there. not just people who disagree. i'm not going to get sarcastic with you, but does this picture seem to be the pinnacle of American ideal, a perfect representation of freedoms and liberty in the US? <img src='http://www.musicforamerica.org/misc/images/replacements-needed-23186.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> it does NOT. things like this aren't protest.. i don't know what the hell to call it, besides sickening.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3)Caring about 9/11 and caring about Iraq are two different issues. One took resources away from the other. I want Bin Laden captured or dead. Until that happens, I can give a rat's **** about Saddam Hussein.
But since I don't fall into lock step with Bush, therefore I hate the country, the military, Mom, apple pie, and all that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the only correlation in my statement between 911 and saddam was their proximity in typed characters.
i'm trying to be civilized here. not all protestors "hate bush" or "hate the military". it's also true that not all protestors are "bitingly sarcastic".
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe_Muffassa+Jun 30 2004, 02:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Jun 30 2004, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for you who "care" about them - go help them. Go sign up in the military - become an engineer - go give them electricity and water. Kill the terrorist hiding behind them. Give em a candy bar. Go give your life for that kid. Go tell him you are sorry for his sister, and then teach him about his new freedoms. As far as I am concerned, the most liberal amongst you should be the most eager to help. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I had any confidence in our administration's competence or responsibility, I might seriously consider it. But unfortunately you don't get to pick what you are ordered to do in the military, and I wouldn't want to be ordered to <a href='http://electroniciraq.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/10/582' target='_blank'>bomb a news agency</a> among other things. Aside from all of that, I don't know arabic, I'm not great with a hammer, and I don't know much about wiring. At the point when some iraqi institution needs software written for them, I'll be glad to help. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If Americans don't belive in America, who will?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Believing in America is not the same as believing in America's actions. Bad decisions do exist. You aren't doing anyone any favors supporting a bad decision out of patriotism. I believe in America because I believe that the democratic process has the potential to get the criminals and incompetants out of office this fall.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-moult+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moult)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the style of F911 turned you off, you should go see a documentary called "Control Room" which I personally thought was much better. The primary focus of the film is on Al Jazeera, the only significant independant news source in the arab world. There is one clip that I will take with me for the rest of my life. It showed an iraqi boy, who couldn't be more that 10 or 12, pushing through a crowd of people to the camera. He screamed with tears streaming down his face, "This is freedom? This is liberation? You blow up our houses and kill our families? You kill my sister?" The worst part is that he wasn't being crazy, or even illogical when he called for the destruction of the United States. He just wanted his sister back. Do you think he's going to remember 10 years down the road that the soldiers had good intentions? Do you think he's even going to remember the atrocities of Saddam? He is going to remember that the United States killed his sister under the pretense of liberating him.
Now ask yourself. We didn't remove any terrorists in Iraq, and we are creating more. How is this progress? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's one boy. pit him against the families of saddam's murder victims, or pit him against every iraqi crying with joy, waving to our boys over there. i don't really want to round up every single iraqi who likes or dislikes the invasion.
While it is just a humor piece I think it brings up an important issue, the majority of the American people could care less. It's well known that many people have no idea what is going on in politics, at best a general knowledge from skimming the headlines in the paper. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i thought it was quite funny you didn't see this article, in the same issue
as far as i can see, this argument is going like this
Left : we shouldn't have gone to war with iraq, it's creating more terrorists, it's NOT helping the whole Al Queda 9/11 thing.
Right: we should support our troops, how dare you not support the troops after 9/11. dont' you know how much of a MONSTER saddam was (and he was, i've read some articles about him gassing his own ppl, testing gasses, feeding dead children to dogs, it's pretty nasty; although, not worse than HALF A GODDAMN million rwandans slaughtering each other with machetes, which the US, and the global community, did nothing about)
it's sort of an apple and oranges thing. it really should be
Left: we shouldn't go to war, these are the reasons it does not help our cause to reduce terrorism.
Right : we should go to war , these are the reasons it DOES help our cause to reduce terrorism.
and more OT, more thoughts on the movies, accuracies, inaccuracies, etc.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
"bush is a moron" is a valid complaint in my book <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Niteowl+Jun 30 2004, 04:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Niteowl @ Jun 30 2004, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i thought it was quite funny you didn't see this article, in the same issue
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I saw it and read it, just didn't fit in with what I was talking about at the time.
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 30 2004, 03:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 30 2004, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <a href='http://www.iraqbodycount.net/' target='_blank'>http://www.iraqbodycount.net/</a> And that's just the deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I'm curious how many were armed civilians? How many, which I'm sure is the majority, were killed by insurgents?
While indirectly it is our fault, to blame the deaths of Iraqi citizens who were killed by terrorists in car bombings, shootings, whatever is unfair and slanted. If the Iraqis want to kill themselves, fine, go ahead, but don't try and pin it on us.
I doubt the number of civilians actually killed <i>directly</i> by Americans is not over 1000.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Jun 30 2004, 04:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Jun 30 2004, 04:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jun 30 2004, 03:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jun 30 2004, 03:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <a href='http://www.iraqbodycount.net/' target='_blank'>http://www.iraqbodycount.net/</a> And that's just the deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes I'm curious how many were armed civilians? How many, which I'm sure is the majority, were killed by insurgents?
While indirectly it is our fault, to blame the deaths of Iraqi citizens who were killed by terrorists in car bombings, shootings, whatever is unfair and slanted. If the Iraqis want to kill themselves, fine, go ahead, but don't try and pin it on us.
I doubt the number of civilians actually killed <i>directly</i> by Americans is not over 1000. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You could have found that out with a minimum of research on the site. They afterall have a database of every death. I also don't think they consider an armed civilian to be a civilian death, but I will check on this. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This database includes up to 7,350 deaths which resulted from coalition military action during the "major-combat" phase prior to May 1st 2003<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Each side can readily claim that indirectly-caused deaths are the "fault" of the other side or, where long-term illnesses and genetic disorders are concerned, "due to other causes." Our methodology requires that specific deaths attributed to US-led military actions are carried in at least two reports from our approved sources. This includes deaths resulting from the destruction of water treatment plants or any other lethal effects on the civilian population. The test for us remains whether the bullet (or equivalent) is attributed to a piece of weaponry where the trigger was pulled by a US or allied finger, or is due to "collateral damage" by either side (with the burden of responsibility falling squarely on the shoulders of those who initiate war without UN Security Council authorization). We agree that deaths from any deliberate source are an equal outrage, but in this project we want to only record those deaths to which we can unambiguously hold our own leaders to account. In short, we record all civilians deaths attributed to our military intervention in Iraq.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a further conservative measure, when the wording used in both reports refers to "people" instead of civilians, we will include the total figure as a maximum but enter "0" into the minimum column unless details are present clearly identifying some or all of the dead as civilian - in this case the number of identifiable civilians will be entered into the minimum column instead of "0". The word "family" will be interpreted in this context as meaning 3 civilians. [Average Iraqi non-extended family size: 6. -CIA Factbook 2002.]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just looking at the list there are well over a thousand from us air raids alone.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 30 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 30 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if it's hostiles getting killed who gives a damn.. and WHY.. o_o <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not even close to that clean cut, the population that the americans were shooting at 90% of the time was only about 50% hostiles. The Iraqie military didn't stand out in a field and wait for the Americans to come and shoot them, they camped in public buildings, across public roads and fired from buildings in towns and slums.
Not to say that the American troops didn't TRY to shoot at the enemy with some discression, but the majority of situations, it just wasn't that clean cut.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 30 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 30 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if it's hostiles getting killed who gives a damn.. and WHY.. o_o <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I did a little more research on the site. Those are specifically non-combatant civilian deaths.
No one cares. Micheal Moore doesn't care about Iraqis or terrorists. The American people or people anywhere else don't care. We would simply like it to be quiet and hush hush. And yes, it is easily provable that Saddam was in fact a dictator, murdering, torturing and basically having control over the population.
But no one cares about that, people just seem to be humanitarians when it's an evil lying government going in.
I'm sad to say it but I don't care either. About a third of all the people in Africa have AIDS, and their level of living is just terrible. We don't care. There's famine and children without homes but as long as Bush isn't involved, we don't care. I'm interested in what these people who are against the war would have done if it didn't happen.
And yeah, the war probably wasn't fought for the purest reasons, but that's like saying US shouldnt have entered WW2 if it wasn't intentionally to save the Jews and Gypsies.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-MrMojo+Jul 1 2004, 06:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrMojo @ Jul 1 2004, 06:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No one cares. Micheal Moore doesn't care about Iraqis or terrorists. The American people or people anywhere else don't care. We would simply like it to be quiet and hush hush. And yes, it is easily provable that Saddam was in fact a dictator, murdering, torturing and basically having control over the population.
But no one cares about that, people just seem to be humanitarians when it's an evil lying government going in.
I'm sad to say it but I don't care either. About a third of all the people in Africa have AIDS, and their level of living is just terrible. We don't care. There's famine and children without homes but as long as Bush isn't involved, we don't care. I'm interested in what these people who are against the war would have done if it didn't happen.
And yeah, the war probably wasn't fought for the purest reasons, but that's like saying US shouldnt have entered WW2 if it wasn't intentionally to save the Jews and Gypsies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nonsense. We care more about iraqi civillians than the millions dying in africa because the blood of those iraqi civillians is on our hands. I feel in part responsible for the deaths of each of those 10,000 people because it is my country and my government that is doing the killing.
Just saw the movie yesterday with my two of my friends. I'm kind of split on the issues it presents (though I'm definitely not conservative) so I had one friend on the right who's so liberal he's almost an anarchist and one on the left who was a hardcore, albeit unreasonable, conservative Republican. The movie was kind of preaching to the choir in my case, so of course I thought it was pretty good.
Also, in my personal opinion I have no idea why they are so concerned about Iraqi casualties. Sure, it's bad, but there's really nothing you can do about it. The lives of the American soldiers out there are far more important to me. After all, my cousin just got back from Fallujah and her boyfriend is still in Afghanistan (they're Marines).
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe_Muffassa+Jun 30 2004, 07:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Jun 30 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for you who "care" about them - go help them. Go sign up in the military - become an engineer - go give them electricity and water. Kill the terrorist hiding behind them. Give em a candy bar. Go give your life for that kid. Go tell him you are sorry for his sister, and then teach him about his new freedoms. As far as I am concerned, the most liberal amongst you should be the most eager to help. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I wish I could, it's pretty impractical to do so-- and I don't think that it's an all or nothing proposition-- if you don't dedicate your life to something, you can't truly 'care' about it?
By that logic, I could demonstrate that you don't care about murder or rape or other violent crimes in your area if you don't become a policeman. Or, you don't care about the safety of our country if you don't join the army and volunteer for the front lines. Or you're an anarchist unless you become a judge or other official. So go ahead and dedicate your life to fixing one perceived ill, and I'll can just use it to 'prove' that you don't give a crap about anything else. You can get hung by that rope in many, many ways.
However, that's the reason why we have politicians-- we have our opinions and the things we care about, then we do some research and select the person who we believe will best represent our concerns through legislature and concerted, well funded efforts. They're a practical proxy for our ideals.
Incidentally, there are a lot of people in this thread who presume to think that because <i>they</i> feel a certain way, then <i>everyone</i> must feel that way, but they're just too PC/cowed/fake to have the 'courage' to say so.
As I said, you're entitled for your opinion, but it's comically naive to think that your views somehow represent the true collective consciousness of your fellow citizens.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jul 1 2004, 02:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jul 1 2004, 02:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 30 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 30 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if it's hostiles getting killed who gives a damn.. and WHY.. o_o <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I did a little more research on the site. Those are specifically non-combatant civilian deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well it IS a war zone.. but i do possess <b>some</b> compassion.
could you please quote your sources or spell it out for me, seein as you already did the research?
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited July 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jul 1 2004, 10:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jul 1 2004, 10:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-moultano+Jul 1 2004, 02:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jul 1 2004, 02:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 30 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 30 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if it's hostiles getting killed who gives a damn.. and WHY.. o_o <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I did a little more research on the site. Those are specifically non-combatant civilian deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well it IS a war zone.. but i do possess <b>some</b> compassion.
could you please quote your sources or spell it out for me, seein as you already did the research? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As many as 10,000 non-combatant civilian deaths during 2003 have been reliably reported so far as a result of the US/UK-led invasion and occupation of Iraq <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I was drawing the conclusion from. I haven't had time to look for a more precise definition of terms on the site.
Comments
<a href='http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4026&n=1' target='_blank'>http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4026&n=1</a>
While it is just a humor piece I think it brings up an important issue, the majority of the American people could care less. It's well known that many people have no idea what is going on in politics, at best a general knowledge from skimming the headlines in the paper.
Now when people start to see things like F 9/11 and have no other sources to get news from, they are going to take what they hear in that movie as fact.
Instead of this finger pointing and constant infighting that seems to paralyze our government, the very best we could hope for is a patriotic rallying of the people.
But sadly it seems the memory of 9/11 has faded in the minds of people in our far to fast paced culture, if it doesn’t affect them, it's not a problem. So people hear a little bit about this, they hear Bush did that, they see F 9/11, they form an opinion based on these things slowly over time. Of course no one feels strongly enough to do anything, that would interfere with their precious lives, and let’s not forget American Idol is on at 8:00. A general apathy, a sort of self hatred seems to be spreading across the country. I'm all fine and good with patriotism disappearing, but only if it means world unification. This sort of dismantling from the inside will bring nothing but trouble.
so why NOW, and not at any other time, are people so desperate to make this man look BAD? why do people hate the US military? why do people not give half a s* that so many americans died on sept. 11th? why can't people see the logic in meeting the enemy at THEIR doorstep, and not ours??
the death ratio in the united states as of 911 is USA 19, Terrorism a thousand something.
i am truly saddened that this doesn't mean a damn thing to people anymore.
America is a fighting country. we bring the fight to the enemy, ESPECIALLY if we are attacked first. when.. where.. WHO changed that? WHAT is different? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) The only protest you allow yourself to hear is 'Bush is a moron'. People on the right (Hannity, O'Reilly, et al) have instilled the connection in peoples' minds that any criticism of Bush equals simple Bush hating. Please try to pay attention to the issues raised, because there is some valid criticism out there.
2)Oh, yes, people critical of Bush also 'hate' the military. If you do not fall into line and give the president a blank check to use them in any way he chooses, it is obviously because you 'hate' them.
Incidentally, when Dr. Wolfowitz, one of the key architects of the Iraq war, mis-stated the number of combat deaths by 200 before the Senate, was this because he 'loves' the military?
3)Caring about 9/11 and caring about Iraq are two different issues. One took resources away from the other. I want Bin Laden captured or dead. Until that happens, I can give a rat's **** about Saddam Hussein.
But since I don't fall into lock step with Bush, therefore I hate the country, the military, Mom, apple pie, and all that.
Out of curiosity, when was the Bush administration and their supporters given the exclusive license for love of country?
In order for something to be slander it must be false. As I said, if someone can find a quibble with the facts of the film, make it known, and lambast Michael Moore all you want for it.
The film doesn't disagree with fighting back. In fact, one of the points that it makes is that the military response to 9/11 was far too restrained. Moore argues that we should have gone into Afghanistan immediately, and with far more troops.
Iraq is an entirely different matter. This threatens to take the thread off topic, but there is absolutely no evidence that Saddam had any connection to 9/11, and there is no credible reason to believe that he did.
If the style of F911 turned you off, you should go see a documentary called "Control Room" which I personally thought was much better. The primary focus of the film is on Al Jazeera, the only significant independant news source in the arab world. There is one clip that I will take with me for the rest of my life. It showed an iraqi boy, who couldn't be more that 10 or 12, pushing through a crowd of people to the camera. He screamed with tears streaming down his face, "This is freedom? This is liberation? You blow up our houses and kill our families? You kill my sister?" The worst part is that he wasn't being crazy, or even illogical when he called for the destruction of the United States. He just wanted his sister back. Do you think he's going to remember 10 years down the road that the soldiers had good intentions? Do you think he's even going to remember the atrocities of Saddam? He is going to remember that the United States killed his sister under the pretense of liberating him.
Now ask yourself. We didn't remove any terrorists in Iraq, and we are creating more.
How is this progress?
Now ask yourself. We didn't remove any terrorists in Iraq, and we are creating more.
How is this progress? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if we would have done a proper carpet bombing we could have got the kid too. Now we have another terrorist on our hands.
I have no problem with starting a democracy in Iraq, but we need to break a few eggs to make an omelet. We should be evacuating Falluja, like we have done before, and then destroying the city. We should be using tanks and APC's in place of hummers. We should be bombing suspected enemy hideouts.
America has forgotten how to fight a war, a lesson learned well during the Civil War.
I agree completely that we should have committed much more to Afghanistan, but lets not say we don't have the ability to handle Iraq as well, we more then have the ability, were just not using it.
I could go on about how lives could have been saved if the military would have applied the proper force at the right time, but it just makes me mad and it won't change a damn thing.
American soldiers are dieing because the American populace can't deal with civilian casualties, or anything which might trigger their pseudo-sympathy impulses for that particular lunch break.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me make sure I'm reading this correctly. Your strategy is to kill everyone so that there's no one left to become a terrorist?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->American soldiers are dieing because the American populace can't deal with civilian casualties, or anything which might trigger their pseudo-sympathy impulses for that particular lunch break.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even dismissing that little thing called morality, the more civilians you kill, the more terrorists you create.
Even dismissing that little thing called morality, the more civilians you kill, the more terrorists you create. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I was making a joke because it most likely wasn't us that killed his sister. Although it is indirectly our fault. I'm not going to play the fake sympathy game, and pretend I care about that boy because the fact is I don't, and nether do you, nor does anyone else in this country really. He’s just one more example people can use to deface the war.
Perhaps I should elaborate a bit on my strategy. Like I said we have the ability to evacuate the civilian population from urban areas in Iraq, we have done it before in Falluja. Now after that was done we sent in troops to do messy, street by street fighting, which gained very little but the loss of some of our soldiers lives. I believe it ended with us letting most of Sauders militia walk away from the city. That was absurd, we should have shot them all as they left. Even before that we should have turned that city into rubble. It will cost us more in the long run then it would to rebuild the city from scratch. "Oh but what about the mosques" To bad, they used them to fire on our troops, they are no longer holy. We blew up churches in WWII, just send us the check.
Like I said we have forgotten how to fight a war, we have learned how to play a mind numbing PR game with our soldier’s lives.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, how <b>you know what</b> dare you? This is the most singularly arrogant, condescending piece of BS I have read on these boards.
Conversely, I can just say that your pseudo-sympathy for the victims of 9/11 is the justification you and your ilk use to push your political agenda.
Prove me different.
Conversely, I can just say that your pseudo-sympathy for the victims of 9/11 is the justification you and your ilk use to push your political agenda.
Prove me different. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just saying what needs to be said. Of course in our PC world something like that is completely unacceptable to spite how true it really is. Do you personally care about that Iraqi boy?
To be honest 9/11 angered me, and for some time I did feel a sort of loss, a sense of horror, mainly anger though. Now I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me, but I have had allot of personal loss in my family so I realize my sympathy for others is severely dulled, and I don't feel genuine sympathy for 9/11 but more a sense of reverence to countrymen that have died.
But to say I feel sorry for people half a world away that I have never met, would be a stretch, for allot of people I know, when they fell like telling me the truth, it is the same.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're entitled to your feelings, but don't project them onto the population as a whole and assume that it's somehow the standard.
I guess that's all I have to say, because I'm not getting into a debate over who is entitled to feel what, and I don't feel any necessity to prove that my gut feelings are genuine.
Edit: It does bother me when I am told that I don't have true sympathy for these people, or I <i>can't</i>, or that somehow my sympathy betrays the memory of those who lost their lives on 9/11, or the loss of our troops*. <i>Sigh</i>.
*not that you said this, but in general sometimes this implication is made within the media.
(I also find it pretty ironic reasa that a page ago you were lamenting the apathy of the american public.)
I also agree about our inablity to fight a proper war. It is all PR now days. Did you know that we have lost less people in this whole war that were lost in minor battles in any other war? If anything, we should be thanking our military for not killing civilians and not causing unnecessary deaths. They have done remarkably well - go read up on the numbers from Vietnam, or WWII or heck, even Persian Gulf war.
As for you who "care" about them - go help them. Go sign up in the military - become an engineer - go give them electricity and water. Kill the terrorist hiding behind them. Give em a candy bar. Go give your life for that kid. Go tell him you are sorry for his sister, and then teach him about his new freedoms. As far as I am concerned, the most liberal amongst you should be the most eager to help.
As for the movie - well MM can sign his own petition and go join the war effort. To me, that would be a more constructive use of his time and energy than flaimbaiting our troops and stripping away what little national pride we have. If Americans don't belive in America, who will?
you'll have to excuse me for thinking that the majority thinks "bush is a moron." i know there are valid arguments out there. i stated that.
but kids my age run around with this moron crap and don't know what the hell they're talking about.. or why. they talk about "pull out of iraq" like it's the same of "pull out" during sex, as if it's as easy as issuing a retreat order. don't get me wrong here, don't take me for just some other stupid kid. i know there are good arguments out there. that's why we have an election every four years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2)Oh, yes, people critical of Bush also 'hate' the military. If you do not fall into line and give the president a blank check to use them in any way he chooses, it is obviously because you 'hate' them.
Incidentally, when Dr. Wolfowitz, one of the key architects of the Iraq war, mis-stated the number of combat deaths by 200 before the Senate, was this because he 'loves' the military?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no, there are some military HATERS out there. not just people who disagree. i'm not going to get sarcastic with you, but does this picture seem to be the pinnacle of American ideal, a perfect representation of freedoms and liberty in the US?
<img src='http://www.musicforamerica.org/misc/images/replacements-needed-23186.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
it does NOT. things like this aren't protest.. i don't know what the hell to call it, besides sickening.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3)Caring about 9/11 and caring about Iraq are two different issues. One took resources away from the other. I want Bin Laden captured or dead. Until that happens, I can give a rat's **** about Saddam Hussein.
But since I don't fall into lock step with Bush, therefore I hate the country, the military, Mom, apple pie, and all that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only correlation in my statement between 911 and saddam was their proximity in typed characters.
i'm trying to be civilized here. not all protestors "hate bush" or "hate the military". it's also true that not all protestors are "bitingly sarcastic".
If I had any confidence in our administration's competence or responsibility, I might seriously consider it. But unfortunately you don't get to pick what you are ordered to do in the military, and I wouldn't want to be ordered to <a href='http://electroniciraq.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/10/582' target='_blank'>bomb a news agency</a> among other things. Aside from all of that, I don't know arabic, I'm not great with a hammer, and I don't know much about wiring. At the point when some iraqi institution needs software written for them, I'll be glad to help.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If Americans don't belive in America, who will?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Believing in America is not the same as believing in America's actions. Bad decisions do exist. You aren't doing anyone any favors supporting a bad decision out of patriotism. I believe in America because I believe that the democratic process has the potential to get the criminals and incompetants out of office this fall.
Now ask yourself. We didn't remove any terrorists in Iraq, and we are creating more.
How is this progress? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's one boy. pit him against the families of saddam's murder victims, or pit him against every iraqi crying with joy, waving to our boys over there. i don't really want to round up every single iraqi who likes or dislikes the invasion.
And that's just the deaths.
<a href='http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4026&n=1' target='_blank'>http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4026&n=1</a>
While it is just a humor piece I think it brings up an important issue, the majority of the American people could care less. It's well known that many people have no idea what is going on in politics, at best a general knowledge from skimming the headlines in the paper.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i thought it was quite funny you didn't see this article, in the same issue
<a href='http://www.theonion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4026' target='_blank'>http://www.theonion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4026</a>
as far as i can see, this argument is going like this
Left : we shouldn't have gone to war with iraq, it's creating more terrorists, it's NOT helping the whole Al Queda 9/11 thing.
Right: we should support our troops, how dare you not support the troops after 9/11. dont' you know how much of a MONSTER saddam was (and he was, i've read some articles about him gassing his own ppl, testing gasses, feeding dead children to dogs, it's pretty nasty; although, not worse than HALF A GODDAMN million rwandans slaughtering each other with machetes, which the US, and the global community, did nothing about)
it's sort of an apple and oranges thing. it really should be
Left: we shouldn't go to war, these are the reasons it does not help our cause to reduce terrorism.
Right : we should go to war , these are the reasons it DOES help our cause to reduce terrorism.
and more OT, more thoughts on the movies, accuracies, inaccuracies, etc.
<a href='http://www.theonion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4026' target='_blank'>http://www.theonion.com/opinion/index.php?issue=4026</a>
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I saw it and read it, just didn't fit in with what I was talking about at the time.
Still funny though.
And that's just the deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I'm curious how many were armed civilians?
How many, which I'm sure is the majority, were killed by insurgents?
While indirectly it is our fault, to blame the deaths of Iraqi citizens who were killed by terrorists in car bombings, shootings, whatever is unfair and slanted. If the Iraqis want to kill themselves, fine, go ahead, but don't try and pin it on us.
I doubt the number of civilians actually killed <i>directly</i> by Americans is not over 1000.
And that's just the deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I'm curious how many were armed civilians?
How many, which I'm sure is the majority, were killed by insurgents?
While indirectly it is our fault, to blame the deaths of Iraqi citizens who were killed by terrorists in car bombings, shootings, whatever is unfair and slanted. If the Iraqis want to kill themselves, fine, go ahead, but don't try and pin it on us.
I doubt the number of civilians actually killed <i>directly</i> by Americans is not over 1000. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could have found that out with a minimum of research on the site. They afterall have a database of every death. I also don't think they consider an armed civilian to be a civilian death, but I will check on this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This database includes up to 7,350 deaths which resulted from coalition military action during the "major-combat" phase prior to May 1st 2003<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Each side can readily claim that indirectly-caused deaths are the "fault" of the other side or, where long-term illnesses and genetic disorders are concerned, "due to other causes." Our methodology requires that specific deaths attributed to US-led military actions are carried in at least two reports from our approved sources. This includes deaths resulting from the destruction of water treatment plants or any other lethal effects on the civilian population. The test for us remains whether the bullet (or equivalent) is attributed to a piece of weaponry where the trigger was pulled by a US or allied finger, or is due to "collateral damage" by either side (with the burden of responsibility falling squarely on the shoulders of those who initiate war without UN Security Council authorization). We agree that deaths from any deliberate source are an equal outrage, but in this project we want to only record those deaths to which we can unambiguously hold our own leaders to account. In short, we record all civilians deaths attributed to our military intervention in Iraq.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a further conservative measure, when the wording used in both reports refers to "people" instead of civilians, we will include the total figure as a maximum but enter "0" into the minimum column unless details are present clearly identifying some or all of the dead as civilian - in this case the number of identifiable civilians will be entered into the minimum column instead of "0". The word "family" will be interpreted in this context as meaning 3 civilians. [Average Iraqi non-extended family size: 6. -CIA Factbook 2002.]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just looking at the list there are well over a thousand from us air raids alone.
It's not even close to that clean cut, the population that the americans were shooting at 90% of the time was only about 50% hostiles. The Iraqie military didn't stand out in a field and wait for the Americans to come and shoot them, they camped in public buildings, across public roads and fired from buildings in towns and slums.
Not to say that the American troops didn't TRY to shoot at the enemy with some discression, but the majority of situations, it just wasn't that clean cut.
I did a little more research on the site. Those are specifically non-combatant civilian deaths.
But no one cares about that, people just seem to be humanitarians when it's an evil lying government going in.
I'm sad to say it but I don't care either. About a third of all the people in Africa have AIDS, and their level of living is just terrible. We don't care. There's famine and children without homes but as long as Bush isn't involved, we don't care. I'm interested in what these people who are against the war would have done if it didn't happen.
And yeah, the war probably wasn't fought for the purest reasons, but that's like saying US shouldnt have entered WW2 if it wasn't intentionally to save the Jews and Gypsies.
But no one cares about that, people just seem to be humanitarians when it's an evil lying government going in.
I'm sad to say it but I don't care either. About a third of all the people in Africa have AIDS, and their level of living is just terrible. We don't care. There's famine and children without homes but as long as Bush isn't involved, we don't care. I'm interested in what these people who are against the war would have done if it didn't happen.
And yeah, the war probably wasn't fought for the purest reasons, but that's like saying US shouldnt have entered WW2 if it wasn't intentionally to save the Jews and Gypsies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nonsense. We care more about iraqi civillians than the millions dying in africa because the blood of those iraqi civillians is on our hands. I feel in part responsible for the deaths of each of those 10,000 people because it is my country and my government that is doing the killing.
Also, in my personal opinion I have no idea why they are so concerned about Iraqi casualties. Sure, it's bad, but there's really nothing you can do about it. The lives of the American soldiers out there are far more important to me. After all, my cousin just got back from Fallujah and her boyfriend is still in Afghanistan (they're Marines).
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While I wish I could, it's pretty impractical to do so-- and I don't think that it's an all or nothing proposition-- if you don't dedicate your life to something, you can't truly 'care' about it?
By that logic, I could demonstrate that you don't care about murder or rape or other violent crimes in your area if you don't become a policeman. Or, you don't care about the safety of our country if you don't join the army and volunteer for the front lines. Or you're an anarchist unless you become a judge or other official. So go ahead and dedicate your life to fixing one perceived ill, and I'll can just use it to 'prove' that you don't give a crap about anything else. You can get hung by that rope in many, many ways.
However, that's the reason why we have politicians-- we have our opinions and the things we care about, then we do some research and select the person who we believe will best represent our concerns through legislature and concerted, well funded efforts. They're a practical proxy for our ideals.
Incidentally, there are a lot of people in this thread who presume to think that because <i>they</i> feel a certain way, then <i>everyone</i> must feel that way, but they're just too PC/cowed/fake to have the 'courage' to say so.
As I said, you're entitled for your opinion, but it's comically naive to think that your views somehow represent the true collective consciousness of your fellow citizens.
I did a little more research on the site. Those are specifically non-combatant civilian deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well it IS a war zone.. but i do possess <b>some</b> compassion.
could you please quote your sources or spell it out for me, seein as you already did the research?
I did a little more research on the site. Those are specifically non-combatant civilian deaths. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well it IS a war zone.. but i do possess <b>some</b> compassion.
could you please quote your sources or spell it out for me, seein as you already did the research? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As many as 10,000 non-combatant civilian deaths during 2003 have been reliably reported so far as a result of the US/UK-led invasion and occupation of Iraq <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I was drawing the conclusion from. I haven't had time to look for a more precise definition of terms on the site.