3xx servers total 1/3rd currently running combat 140 running Extralevels 2
So, doing the math - that's like 0% combat servers running vanilla combat. Hence, nobody is actually playing the combat that the dev's released, so I can't see how anyone deems it a success.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 375 NS servers currently running (191 are Combat) - 140 are running either extralevels2 or extralevels2_rework ... that works out to roughly 73% of the combat servers and 37% of all servers running it. Consider this is the most popular plugin amxx in existence, and you get the picture. <span style='color:white'>51 combat servers are NOT running any type of extralevels2.</span>
And of those servers, practically all of them run some type of plugin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> See,<b> THAT </b>is the type of blanket statement that gives plugins a bad name. Many plugins are not game altering and provide administrative or readyroom functions.
When players seek plain vanilla or non-plugginned servers, extralevels2 is their biggest complaint. It also is the most popular plugin. I merely used it for reference, to show that 50+ servers exist without it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well to be honest: extralevels is not much of a problem when the timelimit is <15 minutes. One thing that really bothers me about co is this "special kills give more xp" plugin. You get extra xp for a double kill, multi kill or for beeing on a killing streak. This leads to a pretty one sided game, especially because there is the "first blood" award, which instantly grants you 4 levels. The plugins is even borked.(you get the firstblood only for the first kill after mapchange). Combine this with extralevels and a single player can dominate the other team completely. I once hit level 30 after 8 minutes, of constantly getting multi kills and of course the 4 level first blood boost.
That said: If you do not think before you install a certain combination of plugins to your server things will get scary.
3xx servers total 1/3rd currently running combat 140 running Extralevels 2
So, doing the math - that's like 0% combat servers running vanilla combat. Hence, nobody is actually playing the combat that the dev's released, so I can't see how anyone deems it a success.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 375 NS servers currently running (191 are Combat) - 140 are running either extralevels2 or extralevels2_rework ... that works out to roughly 73% of the combat servers and 37% of all servers running it. Consider this is the most popular plugin amxx in existence, and you get the picture. <span style='color:white'>51 combat servers are NOT running any type of extralevels2.</span>
And of those servers, practically all of them run some type of plugin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> See,<b> THAT </b>is the type of blanket statement that gives plugins a bad name. Many plugins are not game altering and provide administrative or readyroom functions.
When players seek plain vanilla or non-plugginned servers, extralevels2 is their biggest complaint. It also is the most popular plugin. I merely used it for reference, to show that 50+ servers exist without it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well to be honest: extralevels is not much of a problem when the timelimit is <15 minutes. One thing that really bothers me about co is this "special kills give more xp" plugin. You get extra xp for a double kill, multi kill or for beeing on a killing streak. This leads to a pretty one sided game, especially because there is the "first blood" award, which instantly grants you 4 levels. The plugins is even borked.(you get the firstblood only for the first kill after mapchange). Combine this with extralevels and a single player can dominate the other team completely. I once hit level 30 after 8 minutes, of constantly getting multi kills and of course the 4 level first blood boost.
That said: If you do not think before you install a certain combination of plugins to your server things will get scary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You would be referring to Topchris' ut_sounds plugin. I used to run it on my NS server but it was a much older version, v0.7e, which gave you xp for firstblood, but certainly not 4.
In looking at the code for this, a server op could easily change the amount of xp given for first blood, but the default version does <b>NOT</b> give you 4 levels - the server you played on has had this plugin modified. :>
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jul 31 2005, 06:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jul 31 2005, 06:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-spinviper+Jul 31 2005, 08:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (spinviper @ Jul 31 2005, 08:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And of those servers, practically all of them run some type of plugin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> See,<b> THAT </b>is the type of blanket statement that gives plugins a bad name. Many plugins are not game altering and provide administrative or readyroom functions.
When players seek plain vanilla or non-plugginned servers, extralevels2 is their biggest complaint. It also is the most popular plugin. I merely used it for reference, to show that 50+ servers exist without it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He was referring to game-altering plugins, not all plugins in general. In the last 3 months, I've never played on a combat server that didn't have a game-changing plugin of some sort.
I don't care about AMX or adminmod - I've used them and I know they just provide admin controls. I do care about extra levels, timelimits over 15 minutes, extra upgrades, lerklift, JP+HA, gnome, spawn invuln, etc. etc. etc. And finding a server that doesn't run them, pings decently and has a regular community of players with half a brain has been impossible.
Quite frankly, the problem has been continually getting worse as time goes on. I just wish the devs wouldn't release the server binaries so that we wouldn't get crap like this and could play the game as it was intended.
As long as there are games, you'll have coders making plugins for them. You can build a better mousetrap, but a smarter mouse will be bred.
I use the extralevels2 plugin as a reference. If there's 50+ combat servers at any given time without it, then begin looking at these particular 50 a little closer.
My server's only game-altering plugins are NS: Territory, and mvm_allinone suggested to run with it. I guess if territory's not your thing, you can keep looking. :>
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jul 31 2005, 10:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jul 31 2005, 10:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As long as there are games, you'll have coders making plugins for them. You can build a better mousetrap, but a smarter mouse will be bred. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> …What? How does that pretain to the topic at all? The developers <i>haven't</i> yet prohibited anyone from applying plugins to the game, so there is nothing to have to work around to alter your gaming experience. Of course, I could be missiong something, but all the same, what does this even mean?
<!--QuoteBegin-Al Kaholic+Jul 31 2005, 10:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Al Kaholic @ Jul 31 2005, 10:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jul 31 2005, 10:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jul 31 2005, 10:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As long as there are games, you'll have coders making plugins for them. You can build a better mousetrap, but a smarter mouse will be bred. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> …What? How does that pretain to the topic at all? The developers <i>haven't</i> yet prohibited anyone from applying plugins to the game, so there is nothing to have to work around to alter your gaming experience. Of course, I could be missiong something, but all the same, what does this even mean? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was referring to DragonMech's statement, <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just wish the devs wouldn't release the server binaries so that we wouldn't get crap like this and could play the game as it was intended. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quite frankly, the problem has been continually getting worse as time goes on. I just wish the devs wouldn't release the server binaries so that we wouldn't get crap like this and could play the game as it was intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? When you say "we," you're referring to a sub-section of the population that is very likely the minority.
There aren't many vanilla servers you consider acceptable because your demands are so exacting that no pub could reasonably fulfill them and maintain a decent population level. You could pony up for your own server, but I recall you being rather indignant about that suggestion in the past.
For all intents and purposes, mods are here to stay. You might not like them, but there are plenty of NS players who like being able to get to level 17 and not have to depend on a commander to do it. Are some of the mods silly? Sure. That doesn't mean that people don't find them fun, which is probably the biggest complaint I have about the purist faction on this board. When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that <i>they're having fun the wrong way.</i>
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Jul 31 2005, 03:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Jul 31 2005, 03:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quite frankly, the problem has been continually getting worse as time goes on. I just wish the devs wouldn't release the server binaries so that we wouldn't get crap like this and could play the game as it was intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? When you say "we," you're referring to a sub-section of the population that is very likely the minority.
There aren't many vanilla servers you consider acceptable because your demands are so exacting that no pub could reasonably fulfill them and maintain a decent population level. You could pony up for your own server, but I recall you being rather indignant about that suggestion in the past.
For all intents and purposes, mods are here to stay. You might not like them, but there are plenty of NS players who like being able to get to level 17 and not have to depend on a commander to do it. Are some of the mods silly? Sure. That doesn't mean that people don't find them fun, which is probably the biggest complaint I have about the purist faction on this board. When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that <i>they're having fun the wrong way.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> QFT! Well put finchster.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Jul 31 2005, 09:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Jul 31 2005, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that they're having fun the wrong way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Join a co-server with extralevels and use them to their full potential... When single individuals (sometimes including myself) are doing this you will usually see the round end with either 80% of the marine team or 80% of the alien team in the readyroom and a few people telling you, that you are: -ruining their game -a noob -a hacker -an **** -a person you should consider getting a life -imagine the rest
Personally i do not think that extralevels are bad, as long as the person running the server thought 5 minutes about the game balance. The problem with extralevels is a problem, that is build in the whole co idea. Extralevels just makes it obvious: Often enough one team will stay behind permanently. With a max level of 10 you can usualyy catch up. But with 50 levels and one person reaching level 20 after 10 minutes there is clearly no way to stop him. (especially when the average marine is at lvl 5). Another thing that bugs me about extralevels is that, when i am attacking the cc (marines getting spawn-raped all the time) some of my teammates are telling me not to destroy the cc, because they want to have some fun. (Like beating a dead body was fun <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) This rarely happens in vanilla co servers and i have no idea why.
You mean like going focus fade two minutes in and ending up with a score of 98-6? I've pushed more than one extralevels and /menu server to the point of absurdity and my best game, IMO, is a stately 60-1. I've been called a hacker more than once and it's been on more games than just NS. Usually it has to do with people not fully understanding the game engine or particular combos. When you don't understand things like the game engine or game physics, things like scripts become "h4x" and other nonsensical issues appear.
Natural Selection is a game and people have a funny way of deciding for themselves what is and isn't the proper way to play.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Jul 31 2005, 03:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Jul 31 2005, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You mean like going focus fade two minutes in and ending up with a score of 98-6? I've pushed more than one extralevels and /menu server to the point of absurdity and my best game, IMO, is a stately 60-1. I've been called a hacker more than once and it's been on more games than just NS. Usually it has to do with people not fully understanding the game engine or particular combos. When you don't understand things like the game engine or game physics, things like scripts become "h4x" and other nonsensical issues appear.
Natural Selection is a game and people have a funny way of deciding for themselves what is and isn't the proper way to play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that's nothing, i've done 260-12 onos (i don't believe in redemption for combat)
i'm not even sure if that was fun for me, i was in the lower forties for levels i think
<!--QuoteBegin-Flyingcow+Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a new player wont learn how to play, playing classic. playing classic will teach you how to play classic, but not the game itself.
combat improves individual skills of a player so that he/she doesnt suckcompletely. teamwork doesnt work with horrible skulks/ aim.
end of argument <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, yes, Combat can improve the skills of a classic player. A marine in combat, has an upgraded weapon practically all the time. So, it certainly can improve the skill of a classic player who is going to be stuck with with an LMG 90% of the time.
Ah, yes, Combat can improve the skill of a fade in classic, while giving him the ability to have regen, carapace, celerity, adrenaline, focus, all at one time. While a classic fade just has access to one upgrade of each tree.
Wonderful logic there.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin-Flyingcow+Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a new player wont learn how to play, playing classic. playing classic will teach you how to play classic, but not the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, so you are telling me that all of us who started playing during the 1.0x era and 2.0x era, did not learn how to play "the game itself"? Combat did not exist at that time. So tell me, how did the 1.0x and 2.0x players improve themselves and their aim/skulking/whatever?
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Jul 31 2005, 02:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Jul 31 2005, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> because 24/7 de_dust de_aztec and cs_assault is (+warcraft mod)
<!--QuoteBegin-spinviper+Jul 31 2005, 11:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (spinviper @ Jul 31 2005, 11:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Flyingcow+Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a new player wont learn how to play, playing classic. playing classic will teach you how to play classic, but not the game itself.
combat improves individual skills of a player so that he/she doesnt suckcompletely. teamwork doesnt work with horrible skulks/ aim.
end of argument <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, yes, Combat can improve the skills of a classic player. A marine in combat, has an upgraded weapon practically all the time. So, it certainly can improve the skill of a classic player who is going to be stuck with with an LMG 90% of the time.
Ah, yes, Combat can improve the skill of a fade in classic, while giving him the ability to have regen, carapace, celerity, adrenaline, focus, all at one time. While a classic fade just has access to one upgrade of each tree.
Wonderful logic there.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin-Flyingcow+Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a new player wont learn how to play, playing classic. playing classic will teach you how to play classic, but not the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, so you are telling me that all of us who started playing during the 1.0x era and 2.0x era, did not learn how to play "the game itself"? Combat did not exist at that time. So tell me, how did the 1.0x and 2.0x players improve themselves and their aim/skulking/whatever? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You dont see my point. To actually know how to play natural selection, means to know how to play and use each individual aspect of ns, such as fade, shotgun, lmg. THe people who played in the early versions of the game learned by playing classic.. yes. because that was the only option. you wont laern how to play fade in classic if you suck so much as skulk that you cant get any resources. and when you finally do, you get owned by 2 LMGS.
teamwork doesnt work if the players suck. thats why theres combat, it will help you aim, and learn basic skills for fade, skulk and lerk.
it doesnt matter if you have all teh upgrades, you still learn fade / skulk or whatever.
<!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Jul 31 2005, 01:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Jul 31 2005, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quite frankly, the problem has been continually getting worse as time goes on. I just wish the devs wouldn't release the server binaries so that we wouldn't get crap like this and could play the game as it was intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? When you say "we," you're referring to a sub-section of the population that is very likely the minority.
There aren't many vanilla servers you consider acceptable because your demands are so exacting that no pub could reasonably fulfill them and maintain a decent population level. You could pony up for your own server, but I recall you being rather indignant about that suggestion in the past.
For all intents and purposes, mods are here to stay. You might not like them, but there are plenty of NS players who like being able to get to level 17 and not have to depend on a commander to do it. Are some of the mods silly? Sure. That doesn't mean that people don't find them fun, which is probably the biggest complaint I have about the purist faction on this board. When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that <i>they're having fun the wrong way.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right."
I hate to use an old saying like that in a debate, but it hits the nail on the head in this case. Having many highly modified servers may be good for the total population of players, but it's wrecking the core of the NS community. Why do you think there is a monthly "NS is dying" thread? Sure, the number of players may look good, but the choices of the devs and server ops are driving away the players NS most desperately needs: the dedicated people who form the core of the ns community. The people who devote time and effort to the game - not just to win, but to have fun as well. They are the men and women who will not only keep NS going in the short term, but will keep NS - and future UWE games - going 3, 5, 10 years down the road and beyond. That's not going to happen with many of the players who have joined the game only to play on 50 level combat servers.
You say my criteria for a good pub are too strict. This is not true. Back in the 2.0 and early 3.0 days finding a *bad* server was like finding a needle in a haystack. Servers were filled to the brim with people who I would consider part of NS's "Core community" and with <i>ANY</i> of them, I could sit down and have a damn fine game of NS - co_ or classic. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Finding a *good* pub is like me finding my keys in my room - it can happen, but it sure as hell isn't going to be often. That's a sad turn of events in my mind. I hate to say it, but I've only found that the problem has been exacerbated as the number of modded servers rises.
Now, I'm not trying to blanket all mods as bad. Some mods are actually quite a lot of fun. The difference I'm making is that this fun should <i>not come at the cost of NS's core gameplay!</i> In fact, some mods are highly benificial to a game of ns_ or co_, and I supprt their use wholeheartedly. One such mod that springs to mind is the mod that shows how much health the CC or hive has. While some may argue that it reduced teamwork, I've always found that it encourages more people to weld the CC / heal the hive; that's always a good thing in my book. Another is the "Awards Mod" that gives people awards (just a little text notification, nothing substantial) at the end of a round, such as who welded the most, or who spent the most res on structures.
<!--QuoteBegin-DragonMech+Aug 1 2005, 02:18 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DragonMech @ Aug 1 2005, 02:18 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-The Finch+Jul 31 2005, 01:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Finch @ Jul 31 2005, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Quite frankly, the problem has been continually getting worse as time goes on. I just wish the devs wouldn't release the server binaries so that we wouldn't get crap like this and could play the game as it was intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? When you say "we," you're referring to a sub-section of the population that is very likely the minority.
There aren't many vanilla servers you consider acceptable because your demands are so exacting that no pub could reasonably fulfill them and maintain a decent population level. You could pony up for your own server, but I recall you being rather indignant about that suggestion in the past.
For all intents and purposes, mods are here to stay. You might not like them, but there are plenty of NS players who like being able to get to level 17 and not have to depend on a commander to do it. Are some of the mods silly? Sure. That doesn't mean that people don't find them fun, which is probably the biggest complaint I have about the purist faction on this board. When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that <i>they're having fun the wrong way.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right."
I hate to use an old saying like that in a debate, but it hits the nail on the head in this case. Having many highly modified servers may be good for the total population of players, but it's wrecking the core of the NS community. Why do you think there is a monthly "NS is dying" thread? Sure, the number of players may look good, but the choices of the devs and server ops are driving away the players NS most desperately needs: the dedicated people who form the core of the ns community. The people who devote time and effort to the game - not just to win, but to have fun as well. They are the men and women who will not only keep NS going in the short term, but will keep NS - and future UWE games - going 3, 5, 10 years down the road and beyond. That's not going to happen with many of the players who have joined the game only to play on 50 level combat servers.
You say my criteria for a good pub are too strict. This is not true. Back in the 2.0 and early 3.0 days finding a *bad* server was like finding a needle in a haystack. Servers were filled to the brim with people who I would consider part of NS's "Core community" and with <i>ANY</i> of them, I could sit down and have a damn fine game of NS - co_ or classic. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Finding a *good* pub is like me finding my keys in my room - it can happen, but it sure as hell isn't going to be often. That's a sad turn of events in my mind. I hate to say it, but I've only found that the problem has been exacerbated as the number of modded servers rises.
Now, I'm not trying to blanket all mods as bad. Some mods are actually quite a lot of fun. The difference I'm making is that this fun should <i>not come at the cost of NS's core gameplay!</i> In fact, some mods are highly benificial to a game of ns_ or co_, and I supprt their use wholeheartedly. One such mod that springs to mind is the mod that shows how much health the CC or hive has. While some may argue that it reduced teamwork, I've always found that it encourages more people to weld the CC / heal the hive; that's always a good thing in my book. Another is the "Awards Mod" that gives people awards (just a little text notification, nothing substantial) at the end of a round, such as who welded the most, or who spent the most res on structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You CAN'T control what people want DragonMech. This means you are not able to, in any way, means, shape, or form, control the minds of the masses as you'd like. As long as there is a gaming industry there will be coders out there either hacking it or modifying it to suit the masses.
And you're quoted saying is meaningless. What you and a select few are attempting to do is dictate what is "right" and it's simply not going to work. NS players are going to play on servers where they have fun, no matter how it's modded. If they enjoy getting butchered by a level 40 onos, then let them have their fun - it's "their right" and you cannot take that away.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right."
I hate to use an old saying like that in a debate, but it hits the nail on the head in this case. Having many highly modified servers may be good for the total population of players, but it's wrecking the core of the NS community. Why do you think there is a monthly "NS is dying" thread? Sure, the number of players may look good, but the choices of the devs and server ops are driving away the players NS most desperately needs: the dedicated people who form the core of the ns community. The people who devote time and effort to the game - not just to win, but to have fun as well. They are the men and women who will not only keep NS going in the short term, but will keep NS - and future UWE games - going 3, 5, 10 years down the road and beyond. That's not going to happen with many of the players who have joined the game only to play on 50 level combat servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Argumentum ad populum</i> doesn't really apply to a subjective topic like "fun." You can really no more apply it to games than you could to flavors of ice cream.
Your argument is remarkably similar to the one that clanners used back when the issue was clanners vs. pubbers. "We're the dedicated core of the community and we're the ones who are looking to master the game, so we deserve the primary consideration where balance is concerned." At this point, do you think that it's our illustrious competitive community that's keeping NS afloat? A fanatical community of diehard fans is nice, but you also need a high population if you want to be successful as a video game developer.
Also, at this point I've been assuming that the "NS is dying" threads were just tradition. Those things have been around since 1.X. I don't know how many different issues have been slated to "kill the community," but none of them have been all that successful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You say my criteria for a good pub are too strict. This is not true. Back in the 2.0 and early 3.0 days finding a *bad* server was like finding a needle in a haystack. Servers were filled to the brim with people who I would consider part of NS's "Core community" and with ANY of them, I could sit down and have a damn fine game of NS - co_ or classic. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Finding a *good* pub is like me finding my keys in my room - it can happen, but it sure as hell isn't going to be often. That's a sad turn of events in my mind. I hate to say it, but I've only found that the problem has been exacerbated as the number of modded servers rises. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 2.0 and early 3.0, there were no other options. People played classic because they had to. Did you really think that when given the option, people would take the slower-paced game with the obscene learning curve and high teamwork demands? When I was looking for a game Friday night most of the servers the "core community" would play on were empty or had only a few people. Heck, Lunixmonster only had 3 players during primetime Friday.
When given the option of a faster game with less dependence on commanders and gorges, gamers took it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I'm not trying to blanket all mods as bad. Some mods are actually quite a lot of fun. The difference I'm making is that this fun should not come at the cost of NS's core gameplay! In fact, some mods are highly benificial to a game of ns_ or co_, and I supprt their use wholeheartedly. One such mod that springs to mind is the mod that shows how much health the CC or hive has. While some may argue that it reduced teamwork, I've always found that it encourages more people to weld the CC / heal the hive; that's always a good thing in my book. Another is the "Awards Mod" that gives people awards (just a little text notification, nothing substantial) at the end of a round, such as who welded the most, or who spent the most res on structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS has core gameplay that's been found lacking by people who have been given an option to play something else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> because 24/7 de_dust de_aztec and cs_assault is (+warcraft mod)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
24/7 map servers aren't really the same thing as a mod. Dust is a popular map because it's very well balanced and can accomodate just about any number of players. NS, by design, can only deal with a relatively narrow band in which balance is maintained. At low and high populations, the resource system starts to break down and map design doesn't work as well.
If it's just a matter of people wanting mods, how come Day of Defeat has remained relatively mod free all this time?
First of all people should always be given the posibility to choose, there's almost never anything bad with choice.
There's been a lot of talk about NS dying and a lot of good players are quitting the game because of somthing called "lack of competition". Well, I have to agree.. there isn't many ladders, leagues and clans to battle, if you compare NS to our old archenemy cs. Why is that, some may ask.. and I figure there has been a long discussion about that on the forums already, but I think that ns is just too hard.
Imagine yourself that you've never heard nor played CS and you join a popular server running dust2 only. Will you stand a chance during the first week? Not really.
So, you think cs is hard, then go and play some ns and you multiply the difficulty by 100. It doesn't really matter if you join a combat server or an ns server.. if you join a combat server you just get raped by massive amounts of aliens flying around you (unless you go alien and die, die, die,die and die when just trying to get close to a marine), and when joining a classic you just run around writing "WTH?" when your team is phasing to a hive, and you really can't hit anything. And btw, where the fck do I get better guns from? See the above about the alien part.
Some of you might have rabies by now, just screaming RTFM over and over again, but really... noone does want to read manuals and most games don't require you to read them "so why should this one?".
When you finaly learn to aim and actually kill some rines/skulks (suposedly on combat) you still realize something's missing. Yeah, it's TP (not teleport, stupid) I'm talking about.
Now, I'm finaly getting to the point: you CAN learn TP from both combat and ns.
OMG what a newb!!!111
No, really! I've been playing combat with a guy for about a year by now, and we have great strategies and tactics and almost always move together. I actually never play combat if he's not around - it just sucks without teamwork. Two aliens / marines can easily win a game when they work together, if the enemy are just ramboing around solo alterably hiding in base. We have tactics for almost every room in combat maps, who covers who and so on. Pathetic, well in a way.. but we're having loads of fun just owning every single game.
BUT (there's always one of these), you can't learn to play classic by playing combat. You can't learn combat by playing classic. It's almost two different games, like someone already pointed out, you never see a fade with focus and all defensive upgrades blinking around on classic, when on the other hand sneaking up hives never occur on combat.
I do myself prefer to play classic, (solo pub, but mostly matches) due to the lack of competition in the combat part, but I don't know where I would stand if there was as much combat ladders as there are classics.
For a new player I would still recommend classic, because it's usually much calmer. A new player might actually play through a whole game without seeing a single enemy (believe me, been there done that). On combat you just get owned and either feed aliens or help marines. Also, ns features a much more tactically advanced game play, which although is hidden from the new player before he realizes how much lies in choosing to lockdown that hive or just capture rt's. The downside is that it's just totally confusing all the time, and you never really realize why your team won or lost.
Combat is fast and simple, you shoot or become toast and: <b>you're not under influence of a bad commander</b>. Don't you all just hate when you play public and some noob commander join and start placing 12 turrets in base? On combat everything's up to yourself, and your own choices.
Someone mentioned the ramboing before, and that might be really bad for you. My tip is to adapt to the game. If everyone else's ramboing, so should you... or be stuck at lvl3 for ages. If everyone's being defensive just follow their example, as you'll most likely give away free exp to the other team by ramboing alone. Follow and feel the game, combat is actually like classic in some ways: every game is different.
Oh, I haven't really introduced myself and this is my first post at the forum.. as I mostly like to read.. but anyways, I'm eoy playing in el'pheer.
In Combat they do not learn the following aspects of NS that make the game so great:
- RTS part, strategy?? Running around with a lvl weapons 3 hmg and pwn sum nubs on your own! Where is the building, the defending, the attacking, the diversions.
- Teamwork, weld your buddy, ask for help, own with the team, not by some ninja-1337 player, long inspiring games with lots of pressure.
- Big beautiful maps, lots of ambiance, resource nodes to cap, hives to hold, double (two rt's)
Combat: Small and quite boring maps "Where is the map? " was the first thing that popped up when I started a combat map for the first time. (sorry mapmakers, I do love you for doing so much for us for nothing)
I still remember the day I came on XS4all (dutch server) being a full newb, I learned everything I needed to know, and I love every day I hit refresh and saw enough NS_ servers with enough players ALWAYS.
For very SIMPLE games Combat is perfect, but NS > all
What is Combat:
- Egocentric, just going for a WORTHLESS score..
- Way to easy way to get all upgrades and become some semi-hacked up player, hacked in the way of legal wallhack, lots of extra speed, extra armor. Sure it's fun, but it's more fun to get it by team effort, instead of a few kills.
- Short games, just blow the hive/command chair or stop by some evil time limit.
(and screw those worthless custom maps, siege for instance)
I guess the server browsers tell the true tale .... ... .. . <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-voulge+Jul 30 2005, 05:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (voulge @ Jul 30 2005, 05:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you don't like the epileptic alternative to UT2004/CS? Selecting your own upgrades for marine too hard for you? Sick of coming up against a troop of SGmarines who simultaneously have meddies and ammo's dropped over them??? WHell, obviously CO is not for you. But seriously, Answer = dont play = no hassle = no fuss... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> y helo thar sir "I played for half a month and I know better than all of you".
<!--QuoteBegin-Flyingcow+Aug 1 2005, 01:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Aug 1 2005, 01:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You dont see my point. To actually know how to play natural selection, means to know how to play and use each individual aspect of ns, such as fade, shotgun, lmg. THe people who played in the early versions of the game learned by playing classic.. yes. because that was the only option. you wont laern how to play fade in classic if you suck so much as skulk that you cant get any resources. and when you finally do, you get owned by 2 LMGS.
teamwork doesnt work if the players suck. thats why theres combat, it will help you aim, and learn basic skills for fade, skulk and lerk.
it doesnt matter if you have all teh upgrades, you still learn fade / skulk or whatever.
the only thing you DONT learn in combat is ONOS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's quite the opposite actually. Combat teaches bad habits and is not a good environment for learning to play Classic. Yes, it will improve your twitch skills and give you a basic idea of how to play, but Classic does that just as well. Combat causes you to become reliant on unrestricted upgrades and simple deathmatch play, without teaching you anything about the RTS element of the game which is so crucial in Classic, and it does not reinforce the incredible importance of survival skills for higher lifeforms. You have yet to provide a good reason why Classic is not good for learning basic twitch skills. Yes, it's true that it's hard to learn Lerk/Fade/Onos in Classic before you become decent at Skulk, but is there a problem with that? Classic teaches players the basics first and allows them to progress to better things. You'll spend a lot of time as an unupgraded skulk, then a skulk with upgrades, then a 2 hive skulk... Unlike Combat where you spend a minute or two as a base skulk and then you can choose all the best upgrades right away. You're not going to become a good Fade anyway before you have the basics of the game down, so it's better to learn Classic as a whole in the meantime, and then when you're good enough to invest 50 res into Fading you can start learning to play the real way.
Combat teaches you nothing but simple twitch skills, and develops dependencies and bad habits. I remember in the early Combat days when people played it all the time, and Focus was new and costed one point and everybody took it first, which dulled their Skulking skills when they had to go back to Classic and play without Leap/Focus. Classic, on the other hand, teaches you the entire game at once, both twitch skills and the intricacies of ns_ strategy.
as fade you still learn how to use blink, how to do hit and run, and how to aim.
you dont have all the upgrades as soon as you go fade.... most people go fade after 3 points, and then an additional 8 points is needed for all of the upgrades you speak of. the first 15 kills as fade take skill, after that you have most of the upgrades needed to be a stat****. thats the only problem
I'll be honest, defining the two game modes as classic and combat iwas a bad idea.
What does the word classic mean to you? - To me, I think of old cars, the kind I don't even want to look under the bonnet of, because I haven't the faintest Idea what the old parts were, although some parts resemble the new parts, what the hell is this thing?! and that?!
Yes, yes it's easier to say "going for a game of classic", but that game mode IS Natural Selection, the other is Natural Selection:Combat. Combat is not Natural Selection, as its name is a sub title, it itself is a sub game. Natural Selection should not have had its name changed to make way for its "child".
Its like having some top down RTS game, lets call it.. "Legions of Old", and later there was a patch that added a game mode where instead of a legion, we could use only one unit. This mode would be named "Legions of Old - Gladiators". It now becomes suddenly a hack and slash game with some role play elements, because you need to get gold to upgrade to plate armour and steel swords.
Now these two game modes will share the same background, the same settings and the same unit models/sprites. But should these be considered the same game? Should there even be a debate which one is the "better" mode to play to learn the "father" game?
Of course people would post on that games forums with things along the lines of "I believe 100% that playing gladiators taught me how to play Legions of Old properly". Fine, good for them. There is no reason why it didn't, I mean, it has the same models/sprites, and the need on a resource, to get the upgrades. Except one, it didn't teach them the diverse possibilities, and tactics that would be used against them playing the proper game.
Here's a question:
PlayerA began playing Natural Selection 1 month ago. PlayerB began playing Natural Selection:Combat 1 month ago.
Both players play thier mode, for an equal amount of time, without looking at the other.
Who has the most knowledge of how to play in both modes today?
Comments
3xx servers total
1/3rd currently running combat
140 running Extralevels 2
So, doing the math - that's like 0% combat servers running vanilla combat. Hence, nobody is actually playing the combat that the dev's released, so I can't see how anyone deems it a success.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
375 NS servers currently running (191 are Combat) - 140 are running either extralevels2 or extralevels2_rework ... that works out to roughly 73% of the combat servers and 37% of all servers running it. Consider this is the most popular plugin amxx in existence, and you get the picture. <span style='color:white'>51 combat servers are NOT running any type of extralevels2.</span>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And of those servers, practically all of them run some type of plugin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See,<b> THAT </b>is the type of blanket statement that gives plugins a bad name. Many plugins are not game altering and provide administrative or readyroom functions.
When players seek plain vanilla or non-plugginned servers, extralevels2 is their biggest complaint. It also is the most popular plugin. I merely used it for reference, to show that 50+ servers exist without it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well to be honest: extralevels is not much of a problem when the timelimit is <15 minutes. One thing that really bothers me about co is this "special kills give more xp" plugin. You get extra xp for a double kill, multi kill or for beeing on a killing streak. This leads to a pretty one sided game, especially because there is the "first blood" award, which instantly grants you 4 levels. The plugins is even borked.(you get the firstblood only for the first kill after mapchange). Combine this with extralevels and a single player can dominate the other team completely. I once hit level 30 after 8 minutes, of constantly getting multi kills and of course the 4 level first blood boost.
That said: If you do not think before you install a certain combination of plugins to your server things will get scary.
3xx servers total
1/3rd currently running combat
140 running Extralevels 2
So, doing the math - that's like 0% combat servers running vanilla combat. Hence, nobody is actually playing the combat that the dev's released, so I can't see how anyone deems it a success.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
375 NS servers currently running (191 are Combat) - 140 are running either extralevels2 or extralevels2_rework ... that works out to roughly 73% of the combat servers and 37% of all servers running it. Consider this is the most popular plugin amxx in existence, and you get the picture. <span style='color:white'>51 combat servers are NOT running any type of extralevels2.</span>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And of those servers, practically all of them run some type of plugin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See,<b> THAT </b>is the type of blanket statement that gives plugins a bad name. Many plugins are not game altering and provide administrative or readyroom functions.
When players seek plain vanilla or non-plugginned servers, extralevels2 is their biggest complaint. It also is the most popular plugin. I merely used it for reference, to show that 50+ servers exist without it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well to be honest: extralevels is not much of a problem when the timelimit is <15 minutes. One thing that really bothers me about co is this "special kills give more xp" plugin. You get extra xp for a double kill, multi kill or for beeing on a killing streak. This leads to a pretty one sided game, especially because there is the "first blood" award, which instantly grants you 4 levels. The plugins is even borked.(you get the firstblood only for the first kill after mapchange). Combine this with extralevels and a single player can dominate the other team completely. I once hit level 30 after 8 minutes, of constantly getting multi kills and of course the 4 level first blood boost.
That said: If you do not think before you install a certain combination of plugins to your server things will get scary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would be referring to Topchris' ut_sounds plugin. I used to run it on my NS server but it was a much older version, v0.7e, which gave you xp for firstblood, but certainly not 4.
In looking at the code for this, a server op could easily change the amount of xp given for first blood, but the default version does <b>NOT</b> give you 4 levels - the server you played on has had this plugin modified. :>
See,<b> THAT </b>is the type of blanket statement that gives plugins a bad name. Many plugins are not game altering and provide administrative or readyroom functions.
When players seek plain vanilla or non-plugginned servers, extralevels2 is their biggest complaint. It also is the most popular plugin. I merely used it for reference, to show that 50+ servers exist without it. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was referring to game-altering plugins, not all plugins in general. In the last 3 months, I've never played on a combat server that didn't have a game-changing plugin of some sort.
I don't care about AMX or adminmod - I've used them and I know they just provide admin controls. I do care about extra levels, timelimits over 15 minutes, extra upgrades, lerklift, JP+HA, gnome, spawn invuln, etc. etc. etc. And finding a server that doesn't run them, pings decently and has a regular community of players with half a brain has been impossible.
Quite frankly, the problem has been continually getting worse as time goes on. I just wish the devs wouldn't release the server binaries so that we wouldn't get crap like this and could play the game as it was intended.
I use the extralevels2 plugin as a reference. If there's 50+ combat servers at any given time without it, then begin looking at these particular 50 a little closer.
My server's only game-altering plugins are NS: Territory, and mvm_allinone suggested to run with it. I guess if territory's not your thing, you can keep looking. :>
…What? How does that pretain to the topic at all? The developers <i>haven't</i> yet prohibited anyone from applying plugins to the game, so there is nothing to have to work around to alter your gaming experience. Of course, I could be missiong something, but all the same, what does this even mean?
…What? How does that pretain to the topic at all? The developers <i>haven't</i> yet prohibited anyone from applying plugins to the game, so there is nothing to have to work around to alter your gaming experience. Of course, I could be missiong something, but all the same, what does this even mean? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was referring to DragonMech's statement,
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just wish the devs wouldn't release the server binaries so that we wouldn't get crap like this and could play the game as it was intended. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How so, and why?
If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? When you say "we," you're referring to a sub-section of the population that is very likely the minority.
There aren't many vanilla servers you consider acceptable because your demands are so exacting that no pub could reasonably fulfill them and maintain a decent population level. You could pony up for your own server, but I recall you being rather indignant about that suggestion in the past.
For all intents and purposes, mods are here to stay. You might not like them, but there are plenty of NS players who like being able to get to level 17 and not have to depend on a commander to do it. Are some of the mods silly? Sure. That doesn't mean that people don't find them fun, which is probably the biggest complaint I have about the purist faction on this board. When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that <i>they're having fun the wrong way.</i>
If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? When you say "we," you're referring to a sub-section of the population that is very likely the minority.
There aren't many vanilla servers you consider acceptable because your demands are so exacting that no pub could reasonably fulfill them and maintain a decent population level. You could pony up for your own server, but I recall you being rather indignant about that suggestion in the past.
For all intents and purposes, mods are here to stay. You might not like them, but there are plenty of NS players who like being able to get to level 17 and not have to depend on a commander to do it. Are some of the mods silly? Sure. That doesn't mean that people don't find them fun, which is probably the biggest complaint I have about the purist faction on this board. When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that <i>they're having fun the wrong way.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT! Well put finchster.
Join a co-server with extralevels and use them to their full potential...
When single individuals (sometimes including myself) are doing this you will usually see the round end with either 80% of the marine team or 80% of the alien team in the readyroom and a few people telling you, that you are:
-ruining their game
-a noob
-a hacker
-an ****
-a person you should consider getting a life
-imagine the rest
Personally i do not think that extralevels are bad, as long as the person running the server thought 5 minutes about the game balance. The problem with extralevels is a problem, that is build in the whole co idea. Extralevels just makes it obvious:
Often enough one team will stay behind permanently. With a max level of 10 you can usualyy catch up. But with 50 levels and one person reaching level 20 after 10 minutes there is clearly no way to stop him. (especially when the average marine is at lvl 5).
Another thing that bugs me about extralevels is that, when i am attacking the cc (marines getting spawn-raped all the time) some of my teammates are telling me not to destroy the cc, because they want to have some fun. (Like beating a dead body was fun <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->) This rarely happens in vanilla co servers and i have no idea why.
debatable <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
not really.
Natural Selection is a game and people have a funny way of deciding for themselves what is and isn't the proper way to play.
Natural Selection is a game and people have a funny way of deciding for themselves what is and isn't the proper way to play. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's nothing, i've done 260-12 onos (i don't believe in redemption for combat)
i'm not even sure if that was fun for me, i was in the lower forties for levels i think
combat improves individual skills of a player so that he/she doesnt suckcompletely. teamwork doesnt work with horrible skulks/ aim.
end of argument
combat improves individual skills of a player so that he/she doesnt suckcompletely. teamwork doesnt work with horrible skulks/ aim.
end of argument <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, yes, Combat can improve the skills of a classic player. A marine in combat, has an upgraded weapon practically all the time. So, it certainly can improve the skill of a classic player who is going to be stuck with with an LMG 90% of the time.
Ah, yes, Combat can improve the skill of a fade in classic, while giving him the ability to have regen, carapace, celerity, adrenaline, focus, all at one time. While a classic fade just has access to one upgrade of each tree.
Wonderful logic there.
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin-Flyingcow+Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a new player wont learn how to play, playing classic. playing classic will teach you how to play classic, but not the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, so you are telling me that all of us who started playing during the 1.0x era and 2.0x era, did not learn how to play "the game itself"? Combat did not exist at that time. So tell me, how did the 1.0x and 2.0x players improve themselves and their aim/skulking/whatever?
because 24/7 de_dust de_aztec and cs_assault is (+warcraft mod)
combat improves individual skills of a player so that he/she doesnt suckcompletely. teamwork doesnt work with horrible skulks/ aim.
end of argument <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, yes, Combat can improve the skills of a classic player. A marine in combat, has an upgraded weapon practically all the time. So, it certainly can improve the skill of a classic player who is going to be stuck with with an LMG 90% of the time.
Ah, yes, Combat can improve the skill of a fade in classic, while giving him the ability to have regen, carapace, celerity, adrenaline, focus, all at one time. While a classic fade just has access to one upgrade of each tree.
Wonderful logic there.
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin-Flyingcow+Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flyingcow @ Jul 31 2005, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a new player wont learn how to play, playing classic. playing classic will teach you how to play classic, but not the game itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, so you are telling me that all of us who started playing during the 1.0x era and 2.0x era, did not learn how to play "the game itself"? Combat did not exist at that time. So tell me, how did the 1.0x and 2.0x players improve themselves and their aim/skulking/whatever? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You dont see my point. To actually know how to play natural selection, means to know how to play and use each individual aspect of ns, such as fade, shotgun, lmg. THe people who played in the early versions of the game learned by playing classic.. yes. because that was the only option. you wont laern how to play fade in classic if you suck so much as skulk that you cant get any resources. and when you finally do, you get owned by 2 LMGS.
teamwork doesnt work if the players suck. thats why theres combat, it will help you aim, and learn basic skills for fade, skulk and lerk.
it doesnt matter if you have all teh upgrades, you still learn fade / skulk or whatever.
the only thing you DONT learn in combat is ONOS.
If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? When you say "we," you're referring to a sub-section of the population that is very likely the minority.
There aren't many vanilla servers you consider acceptable because your demands are so exacting that no pub could reasonably fulfill them and maintain a decent population level. You could pony up for your own server, but I recall you being rather indignant about that suggestion in the past.
For all intents and purposes, mods are here to stay. You might not like them, but there are plenty of NS players who like being able to get to level 17 and not have to depend on a commander to do it. Are some of the mods silly? Sure. That doesn't mean that people don't find them fun, which is probably the biggest complaint I have about the purist faction on this board. When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that <i>they're having fun the wrong way.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
"What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right."
I hate to use an old saying like that in a debate, but it hits the nail on the head in this case. Having many highly modified servers may be good for the total population of players, but it's wrecking the core of the NS community. Why do you think there is a monthly "NS is dying" thread? Sure, the number of players may look good, but the choices of the devs and server ops are driving away the players NS most desperately needs: the dedicated people who form the core of the ns community. The people who devote time and effort to the game - not just to win, but to have fun as well. They are the men and women who will not only keep NS going in the short term, but will keep NS - and future UWE games - going 3, 5, 10 years down the road and beyond. That's not going to happen with many of the players who have joined the game only to play on 50 level combat servers.
You say my criteria for a good pub are too strict. This is not true. Back in the 2.0 and early 3.0 days finding a *bad* server was like finding a needle in a haystack. Servers were filled to the brim with people who I would consider part of NS's "Core community" and with <i>ANY</i> of them, I could sit down and have a damn fine game of NS - co_ or classic. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Finding a *good* pub is like me finding my keys in my room - it can happen, but it sure as hell isn't going to be often. That's a sad turn of events in my mind. I hate to say it, but I've only found that the problem has been exacerbated as the number of modded servers rises.
Now, I'm not trying to blanket all mods as bad. Some mods are actually quite a lot of fun. The difference I'm making is that this fun should <i>not come at the cost of NS's core gameplay!</i> In fact, some mods are highly benificial to a game of ns_ or co_, and I supprt their use wholeheartedly. One such mod that springs to mind is the mod that shows how much health the CC or hive has. While some may argue that it reduced teamwork, I've always found that it encourages more people to weld the CC / heal the hive; that's always a good thing in my book. Another is the "Awards Mod" that gives people awards (just a little text notification, nothing substantial) at the end of a round, such as who welded the most, or who spent the most res on structures.
If playing the game "the way it was intended" is the superior method, why are modded servers, particularly combat, so popular? When you say "we," you're referring to a sub-section of the population that is very likely the minority.
There aren't many vanilla servers you consider acceptable because your demands are so exacting that no pub could reasonably fulfill them and maintain a decent population level. You could pony up for your own server, but I recall you being rather indignant about that suggestion in the past.
For all intents and purposes, mods are here to stay. You might not like them, but there are plenty of NS players who like being able to get to level 17 and not have to depend on a commander to do it. Are some of the mods silly? Sure. That doesn't mean that people don't find them fun, which is probably the biggest complaint I have about the purist faction on this board. When you complain about how people aren't playing the way "it was intended," you're essentially telling people that <i>they're having fun the wrong way.</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right."
I hate to use an old saying like that in a debate, but it hits the nail on the head in this case. Having many highly modified servers may be good for the total population of players, but it's wrecking the core of the NS community. Why do you think there is a monthly "NS is dying" thread? Sure, the number of players may look good, but the choices of the devs and server ops are driving away the players NS most desperately needs: the dedicated people who form the core of the ns community. The people who devote time and effort to the game - not just to win, but to have fun as well. They are the men and women who will not only keep NS going in the short term, but will keep NS - and future UWE games - going 3, 5, 10 years down the road and beyond. That's not going to happen with many of the players who have joined the game only to play on 50 level combat servers.
You say my criteria for a good pub are too strict. This is not true. Back in the 2.0 and early 3.0 days finding a *bad* server was like finding a needle in a haystack. Servers were filled to the brim with people who I would consider part of NS's "Core community" and with <i>ANY</i> of them, I could sit down and have a damn fine game of NS - co_ or classic. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Finding a *good* pub is like me finding my keys in my room - it can happen, but it sure as hell isn't going to be often. That's a sad turn of events in my mind. I hate to say it, but I've only found that the problem has been exacerbated as the number of modded servers rises.
Now, I'm not trying to blanket all mods as bad. Some mods are actually quite a lot of fun. The difference I'm making is that this fun should <i>not come at the cost of NS's core gameplay!</i> In fact, some mods are highly benificial to a game of ns_ or co_, and I supprt their use wholeheartedly. One such mod that springs to mind is the mod that shows how much health the CC or hive has. While some may argue that it reduced teamwork, I've always found that it encourages more people to weld the CC / heal the hive; that's always a good thing in my book. Another is the "Awards Mod" that gives people awards (just a little text notification, nothing substantial) at the end of a round, such as who welded the most, or who spent the most res on structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You CAN'T control what people want DragonMech. This means you are not able to, in any way, means, shape, or form, control the minds of the masses as you'd like. As long as there is a gaming industry there will be coders out there either hacking it or modifying it to suit the masses.
And you're quoted saying is meaningless. What you and a select few are attempting to do is dictate what is "right" and it's simply not going to work. NS players are going to play on servers where they have fun, no matter how it's modded. If they enjoy getting butchered by a level 40 onos, then let them have their fun - it's "their right" and you cannot take that away.
I hate to use an old saying like that in a debate, but it hits the nail on the head in this case. Having many highly modified servers may be good for the total population of players, but it's wrecking the core of the NS community. Why do you think there is a monthly "NS is dying" thread? Sure, the number of players may look good, but the choices of the devs and server ops are driving away the players NS most desperately needs: the dedicated people who form the core of the ns community. The people who devote time and effort to the game - not just to win, but to have fun as well. They are the men and women who will not only keep NS going in the short term, but will keep NS - and future UWE games - going 3, 5, 10 years down the road and beyond. That's not going to happen with many of the players who have joined the game only to play on 50 level combat servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Argumentum ad populum</i> doesn't really apply to a subjective topic like "fun." You can really no more apply it to games than you could to flavors of ice cream.
Your argument is remarkably similar to the one that clanners used back when the issue was clanners vs. pubbers. "We're the dedicated core of the community and we're the ones who are looking to master the game, so we deserve the primary consideration where balance is concerned." At this point, do you think that it's our illustrious competitive community that's keeping NS afloat? A fanatical community of diehard fans is nice, but you also need a high population if you want to be successful as a video game developer.
Also, at this point I've been assuming that the "NS is dying" threads were just tradition. Those things have been around since 1.X. I don't know how many different issues have been slated to "kill the community," but none of them have been all that successful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You say my criteria for a good pub are too strict. This is not true. Back in the 2.0 and early 3.0 days finding a *bad* server was like finding a needle in a haystack. Servers were filled to the brim with people who I would consider part of NS's "Core community" and with ANY of them, I could sit down and have a damn fine game of NS - co_ or classic. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Finding a *good* pub is like me finding my keys in my room - it can happen, but it sure as hell isn't going to be often. That's a sad turn of events in my mind. I hate to say it, but I've only found that the problem has been exacerbated as the number of modded servers rises.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In 2.0 and early 3.0, there were no other options. People played classic because they had to. Did you really think that when given the option, people would take the slower-paced game with the obscene learning curve and high teamwork demands? When I was looking for a game Friday night most of the servers the "core community" would play on were empty or had only a few people. Heck, Lunixmonster only had 3 players during primetime Friday.
When given the option of a faster game with less dependence on commanders and gorges, gamers took it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I'm not trying to blanket all mods as bad. Some mods are actually quite a lot of fun. The difference I'm making is that this fun should not come at the cost of NS's core gameplay! In fact, some mods are highly benificial to a game of ns_ or co_, and I supprt their use wholeheartedly. One such mod that springs to mind is the mod that shows how much health the CC or hive has. While some may argue that it reduced teamwork, I've always found that it encourages more people to weld the CC / heal the hive; that's always a good thing in my book. Another is the "Awards Mod" that gives people awards (just a little text notification, nothing substantial) at the end of a round, such as who welded the most, or who spent the most res on structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS has core gameplay that's been found lacking by people who have been given an option to play something else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> because 24/7 de_dust de_aztec and cs_assault is (+warcraft mod)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
24/7 map servers aren't really the same thing as a mod. Dust is a popular map because it's very well balanced and can accomodate just about any number of players. NS, by design, can only deal with a relatively narrow band in which balance is maintained. At low and high populations, the resource system starts to break down and map design doesn't work as well.
If it's just a matter of people wanting mods, how come Day of Defeat has remained relatively mod free all this time?
There's been a lot of talk about NS dying and a lot of good players are quitting the game because of somthing called "lack of competition". Well, I have to agree.. there isn't many ladders, leagues and clans to battle, if you compare NS to our old archenemy cs. Why is that, some may ask.. and I figure there has been a long discussion about that on the forums already, but I think that ns is just too hard.
Imagine yourself that you've never heard nor played CS and you join a popular server running dust2 only. Will you stand a chance during the first week? Not really.
So, you think cs is hard, then go and play some ns and you multiply the difficulty by 100. It doesn't really matter if you join a combat server or an ns server.. if you join a combat server you just get raped by massive amounts of aliens flying around you (unless you go alien and die, die, die,die and die when just trying to get close to a marine), and when joining a classic you just run around writing "WTH?" when your team is phasing to a hive, and you really can't hit anything. And btw, where the fck do I get better guns from? See the above about the alien part.
Some of you might have rabies by now, just screaming RTFM over and over again, but really... noone does want to read manuals and most games don't require you to read them "so why should this one?".
When you finaly learn to aim and actually kill some rines/skulks (suposedly on combat) you still realize something's missing. Yeah, it's TP (not teleport, stupid) I'm talking about.
Now, I'm finaly getting to the point: you CAN learn TP from both combat and ns.
OMG what a newb!!!111
No, really! I've been playing combat with a guy for about a year by now, and we have great strategies and tactics and almost always move together. I actually never play combat if he's not around - it just sucks without teamwork. Two aliens / marines can easily win a game when they work together, if the enemy are just ramboing around solo alterably hiding in base. We have tactics for almost every room in combat maps, who covers who and so on. Pathetic, well in a way.. but we're having loads of fun just owning every single game.
BUT (there's always one of these), you can't learn to play classic by playing combat. You can't learn combat by playing classic. It's almost two different games, like someone already pointed out, you never see a fade with focus and all defensive upgrades blinking around on classic, when on the other hand sneaking up hives never occur on combat.
I do myself prefer to play classic, (solo pub, but mostly matches) due to the lack of competition in the combat part, but I don't know where I would stand if there was as much combat ladders as there are classics.
For a new player I would still recommend classic, because it's usually much calmer. A new player might actually play through a whole game without seeing a single enemy (believe me, been there done that). On combat you just get owned and either feed aliens or help marines. Also, ns features a much more tactically advanced game play, which although is hidden from the new player before he realizes how much lies in choosing to lockdown that hive or just capture rt's. The downside is that it's just totally confusing all the time, and you never really realize why your team won or lost.
Combat is fast and simple, you shoot or become toast and: <b>you're not under influence of a bad commander</b>. Don't you all just hate when you play public and some noob commander join and start placing 12 turrets in base? On combat everything's up to yourself, and your own choices.
Someone mentioned the ramboing before, and that might be really bad for you. My tip is to adapt to the game. If everyone else's ramboing, so should you... or be stuck at lvl3 for ages. If everyone's being defensive just follow their example, as you'll most likely give away free exp to the other team by ramboing alone. Follow and feel the game, combat is actually like classic in some ways: every game is different.
Oh, I haven't really introduced myself and this is my first post at the forum.. as I mostly like to read.. but anyways, I'm eoy playing in el'pheer.
Now I'm off to play some combat ->
In Combat they do not learn the following aspects of NS that make the game so great:
- RTS part, strategy?? Running around with a lvl weapons 3 hmg and pwn sum nubs on your own!
Where is the building, the defending, the attacking, the diversions.
- Teamwork, weld your buddy, ask for help, own with the team,
not by some ninja-1337 player, long inspiring games with lots of pressure.
- Big beautiful maps, lots of ambiance, resource nodes to cap, hives to hold, double (two rt's)
Combat: Small and quite boring maps
"Where is the map? " was the first thing that popped up when I started a combat map for the first time.
(sorry mapmakers, I do love you for doing so much for us for nothing)
I still remember the day I came on XS4all (dutch server) being a full newb, I learned everything I needed to know, and I love every day I hit refresh and saw enough NS_ servers with enough players ALWAYS.
For very SIMPLE games Combat is perfect, but NS > all
What is Combat:
- Egocentric, just going for a WORTHLESS score..
- Way to easy way to get all upgrades and become some semi-hacked up player, hacked in the way of legal wallhack, lots of extra speed, extra armor. Sure it's fun, but it's more fun to get it by team effort, instead of a few kills.
- Short games, just blow the hive/command chair or stop by some evil time limit.
(and screw those worthless custom maps, siege for instance)
Oh ye old days T_T'
End of Rant
*please flame below
WHell, obviously CO is not for you. But seriously, Answer = dont play = no hassle = no fuss...
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
y helo thar sir "I played for half a month and I know better than all of you".
Seriously, shut up for your own good.
teamwork doesnt work if the players suck. thats why theres combat, it will help you aim, and learn basic skills for fade, skulk and lerk.
it doesnt matter if you have all teh upgrades, you still learn fade / skulk or whatever.
the only thing you DONT learn in combat is ONOS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's quite the opposite actually. Combat teaches bad habits and is not a good environment for learning to play Classic. Yes, it will improve your twitch skills and give you a basic idea of how to play, but Classic does that just as well. Combat causes you to become reliant on unrestricted upgrades and simple deathmatch play, without teaching you anything about the RTS element of the game which is so crucial in Classic, and it does not reinforce the incredible importance of survival skills for higher lifeforms. You have yet to provide a good reason why Classic is not good for learning basic twitch skills. Yes, it's true that it's hard to learn Lerk/Fade/Onos in Classic before you become decent at Skulk, but is there a problem with that? Classic teaches players the basics first and allows them to progress to better things. You'll spend a lot of time as an unupgraded skulk, then a skulk with upgrades, then a 2 hive skulk... Unlike Combat where you spend a minute or two as a base skulk and then you can choose all the best upgrades right away. You're not going to become a good Fade anyway before you have the basics of the game down, so it's better to learn Classic as a whole in the meantime, and then when you're good enough to invest 50 res into Fading you can start learning to play the real way.
Combat teaches you nothing but simple twitch skills, and develops dependencies and bad habits. I remember in the early Combat days when people played it all the time, and Focus was new and costed one point and everybody took it first, which dulled their Skulking skills when they had to go back to Classic and play without Leap/Focus. Classic, on the other hand, teaches you the entire game at once, both twitch skills and the intricacies of ns_ strategy.
you dont have all the upgrades as soon as you go fade.... most people go fade after 3 points, and then an additional 8 points is needed for all of the upgrades you speak of. the first 15 kills as fade take skill, after that you have most of the upgrades needed to be a stat****. thats the only problem
What does the word classic mean to you? - To me, I think of old cars, the kind I don't even want to look under the bonnet of, because I haven't the faintest Idea what the old parts were, although some parts resemble the new parts, what the hell is this thing?! and that?!
Yes, yes it's easier to say "going for a game of classic", but that game mode IS Natural Selection, the other is Natural Selection:Combat. Combat is not Natural Selection, as its name is a sub title, it itself is a sub game. Natural Selection should not have had its name changed to make way for its "child".
Its like having some top down RTS game, lets call it.. "Legions of Old", and later there was a patch that added a game mode where instead of a legion, we could use only one unit. This mode would be named "Legions of Old - Gladiators".
It now becomes suddenly a hack and slash game with some role play elements, because you need to get gold to upgrade to plate armour and steel swords.
Now these two game modes will share the same background, the same settings and the same unit models/sprites. But should these be considered the same game? Should there even be a debate which one is the "better" mode to play to learn the "father" game?
Of course people would post on that games forums with things along the lines of "I believe 100% that playing gladiators taught me how to play Legions of Old properly". Fine, good for them. There is no reason why it didn't, I mean, it has the same models/sprites, and the need on a resource, to get the upgrades. Except one, it didn't teach them the diverse possibilities, and tactics that would be used against them playing the proper game.
Here's a question:
PlayerA began playing Natural Selection 1 month ago.
PlayerB began playing Natural Selection:Combat 1 month ago.
Both players play thier mode, for an equal amount of time, without looking at the other.
Who has the most knowledge of how to play in both modes today?
Oh, and five lvl3 shotties isn't going to pwn you if that's what you're worried about.