Another Strat Game...but Here The Soldiers *learn*

Marik_SteeleMarik_Steele To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members Posts: 4,202 mod
edited June 2005 in Off-Topic
yet another slashdot repost
I haven't had time to actually try it yet, but the slashdot post and documentation included with this "Nero" game make it seem quite cool. Much like the Black & White series, this game looks like it'll live or die based on how well the "units" can be taught. Post what you think about it.
former NS community lead (back in the days of NS1, in between Nemesis Zero and Comprox)
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Comments

  • Invader_ScootInvader_Scoot Join Date: 2003-10-13 Member: 21669Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,590 Fully active user
    Hmm, it looks like Nero is up for download. I'll check it out and see what it's all about.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    Man, this game could be such an incredible time waster.

    This thing is cool. Your army starts out knowing absolutely nothing, not even how to walk in a straight line, and their brains get more complex as you train them and reward them for different behaviors.

    cool stuff.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    Its pretty buggy though, and everysooften starts to run like absolute ****.

    I taught my guys to navigate obstacles kinda. Right now I'm just throwing them in an arena with a team to fight, setting some metrics, and leaving it overnight. We'll see if I have a finely tuned fighting force in the morning.
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members Posts: 2,227
    what if they learn... ABOUT THE MATRIX?

    Quick we need agents!
    Don't Die!

    LOVE NATURAL-SELECTION HARDER!

    It seems the only way to change anything this day and age is to kill. Whatever happened to talking?

    (>#_O)>/ .... (/'.')/
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 8,207 mod
  • RaVeRaVe Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17538Members Posts: 3,516
    edited June 2005
    It's interesting but after I run them through the basics and add an extra wall they go haphazard again tounge.gif

    At least the bots I trained fared well against Death From Afar. Guess I'll train them to disperse a bit more since they tend to clump a lot together.

    QUOTE (BobTheJanitor)
    The armory isn't broken, it's the players that are broken. And if you have a problem with humanity, you'll have to direct your ideas and suggestions to your deity of choice.
  • KGB_GaralKGB_Garal Join Date: 2005-06-09 Member: 53476Members Posts: 215
    "Service Temporarily Unavailable" sad-fix.gif
    -[KGB]- Garal TheGreat

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  • CondizzleCondizzle Join Date: 2004-10-05 Member: 32107Members Posts: 918
    I can't get on that site either.
    dsf
  • SinSpawnSinSpawn Harbinger of Suffering Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8359Members Posts: 1,684
    Screenshots?
    image
    "We only live to serve out our purpose for the Hivemind"
  • KGB_GaralKGB_Garal Join Date: 2005-06-09 Member: 53476Members Posts: 215
    Site's back up!
    -[KGB]- Garal TheGreat

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  • KGB_GaralKGB_Garal Join Date: 2005-06-09 Member: 53476Members Posts: 215
    The download site is going really slow though and I can't get it to let me DL x.x
    -[KGB]- Garal TheGreat

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  • CondizzleCondizzle Join Date: 2004-10-05 Member: 32107Members Posts: 918
    edited June 2005
    The link they provided for the download isn't working for me.
    dsf
  • OttoDestructOttoDestruct Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7790Members Posts: 3,231
    Wheres blackmage when we need a mirror
    user posted image
    Life is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 8,207 mod
    edited June 2005
    Whee, finally got the soldiers to go around walls without just being lucky, and also to approach & shoot... and then the program crashed :(
  • R_A_CR_A_C Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16273Members Posts: 631
    can we get screenies?
    R A C
  • DiscoZombieDiscoZombie Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18951Members Posts: 4,521
    the graphics aren't all that impressive - it's more of an AI demonstration, after all. there's little red and blue robots, and some walls and obstacles. you train them using sliders to reinforce and punish behaviors...

    if they want the AI to be even more realistic, there shouldn't even BE reward/punishment sliders - the game should be self-rewarding and self-punishing... like, you shouldn't have to tell your robots to avoid getting shot - they should want to do that on their own, etc.
    image
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jun 28 2005, 01:44 PM)
    if they want the AI to be even more realistic, there shouldn't even BE reward/punishment sliders - the game should be self-rewarding and self-punishing... like, you shouldn't have to tell your robots to avoid getting shot - they should want to do that on their own, etc.

    Why? Getting certain soldiers shot could be part of your strategy.
  • Nil_IQNil_IQ Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15520Members Posts: 3,316
    QUOTE (moultano @ Jun 28 2005, 01:50 PM)
    QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jun 28 2005, 01:44 PM)
    if they want the AI to be even more realistic, there shouldn't even BE reward/punishment sliders - the game should be self-rewarding and self-punishing... like, you shouldn't have to tell your robots to avoid getting shot - they should want to do that on their own, etc.

    Why? Getting certain soldiers shot could be part of your strategy.

    I can't see how it would be... although I take your point that you might not want them to learn "being shot at is bad", because then they might develop "cowardly" personalities... although you would simply be able to punish cowards, so I don't see why it would be a problem.

    Ooh, if I can get this to work, i'm going to try and train my guys to run away really fast as a tactic smile-fix.gif
    QUOTE (Gwahir @ Jun 2 2008, 06:30 PM) »
    QUOTE (Abra @ Jun 2 2008, 06:19 PM) »
    The day the word "danger" makes it into my dictionary, is the day the workplace related deaths exceeds the "workplace related death-to-oh my, magma is being pumped, awesome!"-ratio.

    I am disturbed by your obsession with pumping hot fluids.
  • Invader_ScootInvader_Scoot Join Date: 2003-10-13 Member: 21669Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,590 Fully active user
    The soldiers can't seem to learn to go around the darn wall even after like 30 minutes. So I just got bored and put a couple of brutle turrets and owned all my people.
  • DiscoZombieDiscoZombie Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18951Members Posts: 4,521
    QUOTE (moultano @ Jun 28 2005, 01:50 PM)
    QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jun 28 2005, 01:44 PM)
    if they want the AI to be even more realistic, there shouldn't even BE reward/punishment sliders - the game should be self-rewarding and self-punishing... like, you shouldn't have to tell your robots to avoid getting shot - they should want to do that on their own, etc.

    Why? Getting certain soldiers shot could be part of your strategy.

    I was just sayin' that, ideally, there should be a mode, maybe, where the soldiers train themselves, and truly use natural selection... like, it would be interesting to see robots that could develop their own tactics to use without human input. maybe the ones that fought from a distance would survive best - maybe the ones that strafe... maybe some would learn to ambush, etc. or maybe they would figure out that peace is the answer, and if no robot shot anyone else they'd all survive biggrin-fix.gif

    I guess that kinda AI is a little beyond the scope of this game hehe
    image
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation Posts: 8,207 mod
    QUOTE (Invader Scoot @ Jun 28 2005, 08:09 PM)
    The soldiers can't seem to learn to go around the darn wall even after like 30 minutes. So I just got bored and put a couple of brutle turrets and owned all my people.

    Use Converge a lot?
  • KGB_GaralKGB_Garal Join Date: 2005-06-09 Member: 53476Members Posts: 215
    Woot it finally let me download it.
    -[KGB]- Garal TheGreat

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  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jun 28 2005, 02:11 PM)
    QUOTE (moultano @ Jun 28 2005, 01:50 PM)
    QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jun 28 2005, 01:44 PM)
    if they want the AI to be even more realistic, there shouldn't even BE reward/punishment sliders - the game should be self-rewarding and self-punishing... like, you shouldn't have to tell your robots to avoid getting shot - they should want to do that on their own, etc.

    Why? Getting certain soldiers shot could be part of your strategy.

    I was just sayin' that, ideally, there should be a mode, maybe, where the soldiers train themselves, and truly use natural selection... like, it would be interesting to see robots that could develop their own tactics to use without human input. maybe the ones that fought from a distance would survive best - maybe the ones that strafe... maybe some would learn to ambush, etc. or maybe they would figure out that peace is the answer, and if no robot shot anyone else they'd all survive biggrin-fix.gif

    I guess that kinda AI is a little beyond the scope of this game hehe

    Yeah, personally, I'd like to be able to do training rounds in which the normal game mechanics apply. I want both the enemies and my robots to die when they get shot enough. It would be a real test of these algorithms to see if they could learn to be very very effective soldiers doing nothing but fighting from the get go.
  • SuitePeeSuitePee Join Date: 2004-11-18 Member: 32857Members Posts: 309
    Hmmmmm...this is a hard game to get to grips with,but I like the idea.
    Imagine doing this on a Dynasty Warriors or Rome:Total War game.
    You could train each army....some could be kamikaze mobs,others could provide covering fire. But they have to learn it. Gradually.
    And then imagine being able to then even tweak individual units in each army......

    Btw,the engine they use is same one as in Blockland,which I wouldn't mind a link to the latest version of. biggrin-fix.gif
    There's still hope for creativity.
    "Sometimes I think maybe I want to join the army. I mean it's basically like FPS, except it's better graphics, but what happens if I get lag out there? I'm dead! And I mean, I heard there were no respawn points in RL. BOOM HEADSHOT!"- FPS Doug
  • DY357LXDY357LX Playing since day 1. Still can't Comm. England Join Date: 2002-10-27 Member: 1651Members, Constellation Posts: 2,309 Fully active user
    Cool - i'm downloading it now as well as the Eclipse HL2 mod.
    Good old FileRush.com - /me hugs FileRush
    "And so is the Golden City blackened With each step you take in my Hall. Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting. You have brought Sin to Heaven And doom upon all the world."
  • CondizzleCondizzle Join Date: 2004-10-05 Member: 32107Members Posts: 918
    edited June 2005
    After an hour of training, my Condinubs' AI is up to 184 kb and has won a single battle (1 to 0).

    Here are some things I've learned:
    *Slowly increase the difficulty. Start with a tiny wall, medium wall, larger wall, room, etc.
    *Train one skill at a time, then start combining skills. Train going around a wall, avoiding bullets, and shooting. Then make them go around the wall while shooting and avoiding.
    *A good way to train evading bullets is to take over a turret and spray in the direction that they're running. Soon they'll realize not to run into the path of the bullets.
    *Smite robots that go far out of the area you want them to.
    dsf
  • meepmeep Join Date: 2004-02-04 Member: 26034Members Posts: 98
    QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Jun 28 2005, 01:44 PM)
    the graphics aren't all that impressive - it's more of an AI demonstration, after all. there's little red and blue robots, and some walls and obstacles. you train them using sliders to reinforce and punish behaviors...

    if they want the AI to be even more realistic, there shouldn't even BE reward/punishment sliders - the game should be self-rewarding and self-punishing... like, you shouldn't have to tell your robots to avoid getting shot - they should want to do that on their own, etc.

    just like babies wouldn't be afraid of a gun, neither would baby robots. You have to train them both just the same.
  • RPG_JssmfulhudRPG_Jssmfulhud Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4006Members Posts: 3,412
    I've been training my agents for almost an hour. Approach target, shoot it, stay at a distance, avoid walls... And then my compy crashed. Bye bye robot brains. sad-fix.gif
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members Posts: 3,137
    So the soldiers learn, huh?

    Sounds like the exact opposite of a pub game of NS.
    the artist formerly known as duff-man
  • Nil_IQNil_IQ Join Date: 2003-04-15 Member: 15520Members Posts: 3,316
    Currently trying to train my dudes to run around in packs. I figure if I set approach, shoot and stick together to the same values and leave it for a bit, they should figure it out since a robot that ONLY follows or ONLY sticks with other robots will get less "fitness" than one who does all three.

    Fortunately it's alt+tab friendly so my dudes are in trainning even as I type this. WORK HARDER YOU MAGGOTS!
    QUOTE (Gwahir @ Jun 2 2008, 06:30 PM) »
    QUOTE (Abra @ Jun 2 2008, 06:19 PM) »
    The day the word "danger" makes it into my dictionary, is the day the workplace related deaths exceeds the "workplace related death-to-oh my, magma is being pumped, awesome!"-ratio.

    I am disturbed by your obsession with pumping hot fluids.
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