<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Jun 27 2005, 06:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 27 2005, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DC Darkling+Jun 26 2005, 07:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DC Darkling @ Jun 26 2005, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can say I loved 1.4 (only 1.x I played) cause it was epic and fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I sure hope you enjoyed that version, especially since it never existed! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> he forgot the 0 infront of the 4!
You sure got him! Good one buddy! ^5 (that's an E-High five - get it? ponce!)
<!--QuoteBegin-Vyshus+Jun 27 2005, 01:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vyshus @ Jun 27 2005, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I read this whole topic (took me maybe 45 minutes) and although I just recently started playing the earlier version sounds 3 times as fun as the current NS...right now its barely fun enough for me to keep coming back...is there a way to play the old NS? as in is are there servers that still run version 1.x? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There might be the extremely rare server running 1.0x. However its likely that no one is in it. Trust me, the game was fun, but it required an extremely good community of players to show its potential. RIP readyroom.org
<!--QuoteBegin-Haze+Jun 27 2005, 10:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze @ Jun 27 2005, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kill4thrills+Jun 27 2005, 01:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kill4thrills @ Jun 27 2005, 01:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> all these people saying fun > balance... you do realize than when the game is unbalanced, you having "fun" means the other team is NOT having fun. therein lies the problem with 1.0x games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think having an overpowered onos at hive 2 wouldnt be fun. The fact that something is roving around the map that can make mince meat of your entire squad -- and its another player, is absolutely awesome.
However, as stated before, balance does not mean even. A skulk is not even with a shotty marine down a long corridor and a lot of "balance" relies on variables. 1.0x wasnt balanced, but wasnt horridly skewed to one side. (ASIDE FROM JP/HMG. Yeesh. <i>I</i> found a good server) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but it was horridly skewed, in favor of marines. the gameplay mechanics all led to stronger marines and weaker aliens. skulks were no match for marines because each time they used upgrades it costs 2 res, 2 hives = 4 res. and with skulks as fragile and useless as they were, it was unsustainable and most skulks went out vanilla to be slaughtered. the hive restrictions was worst. losing a hive was a gamebreaker because of the whole slippery slope thing (I hope you remember the thread, as i'm not gonna go into detail) there was no way to comeback. losing an entire tier of tech was too much considering the huge power difference between hive levels. add in some jp/hmg lamage and the impotent lerk they had back then, it was impossible for aliens to win unless under the best of cicumstances. it only seemed balance at first because players were slow to catch on to marine tactics that were nearly sure-win. 2 hive lockdown in 1.0x = sure win. in 2.0+ it was wait until fades or oni come to knock down your expansions cause you were spread too far apart
and you misunderstand me on the balance issue. with teams differing so much in a game such as NS, balance will never be unit_x >= unit_y. it'll always be with a given resource on both sides, they should have roughly equal chance to win, with skill being the deciding factor.
sure i had a lot of fun jp/hmging skulks and ripping marines to shreds as onos, but when you are owning on such a level the game becomes pointless and not fun for the other team. now, instead of LOADS of fun for the best exploiters of super-units, the fun is spread more across all units on both teams (except fades, who have fun all the damn time). and if that's not satisfying enough for you, you can hatch some ideas for improvement and put them in I&S. 1.0x was left in the dust because it frankly didn't work well
<!--QuoteBegin-kill4thrills+Jun 27 2005, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kill4thrills @ Jun 27 2005, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Haze+Jun 27 2005, 10:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze @ Jun 27 2005, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kill4thrills+Jun 27 2005, 01:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kill4thrills @ Jun 27 2005, 01:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> all these people saying fun > balance... you do realize than when the game is unbalanced, you having "fun" means the other team is NOT having fun. therein lies the problem with 1.0x games. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont think having an overpowered onos at hive 2 wouldnt be fun. The fact that something is roving around the map that can make mince meat of your entire squad -- and its another player, is absolutely awesome.
However, as stated before, balance does not mean even. A skulk is not even with a shotty marine down a long corridor and a lot of "balance" relies on variables. 1.0x wasnt balanced, but wasnt horridly skewed to one side. (ASIDE FROM JP/HMG. Yeesh. <i>I</i> found a good server) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but it was horridly skewed, in favor of marines. the gameplay mechanics all led to stronger marines and weaker aliens. skulks were no match for marines because each time they used upgrades it costs 2 res, 2 hives = 4 res. and with skulks as fragile and useless as they were, it was unsustainable and most skulks went out vanilla to be slaughtered. the hive restrictions was worst. losing a hive was a gamebreaker because of the whole slippery slope thing (I hope you remember the thread, as i'm not gonna go into detail) there was no way to comeback. losing an entire tier of tech was too much considering the huge power difference between hive levels. add in some jp/hmg lamage and the impotent lerk they had back then, it was impossible for aliens to win unless under the best of cicumstances. it only seemed balance at first because players were slow to catch on to marine tactics that were nearly sure-win. 2 hive lockdown in 1.0x = sure win. in 2.0+ it was wait until fades or oni come to knock down your expansions cause you were spread too far apart
and you misunderstand me on the balance issue. with teams differing so much in a game such as NS, balance will never be unit_x >= unit_y. it'll always be with a given resource on both sides, they should have roughly equal chance to win, with skill being the deciding factor.
sure i had a lot of fun jp/hmging skulks and ripping marines to shreds as onos, but when you are owning on such a level the game becomes pointless and not fun for the other team. now, instead of LOADS of fun for the best exploiters of super-units, the fun is spread more across all units on both teams (except fades, who have fun all the damn time). and if that's not satisfying enough for you, you can hatch some ideas for improvement and put them in I&S. 1.0x was left in the dust because it frankly didn't work well <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Aye, I'm only touching on (in my opinion) the good aspects of 1.0x. The hive limits was something that I thought was important to NS. It focused on hive importance and really gave it a heartpounding feel as both sides went up against it and really raised the fun for me. Indeed, whoever won that hive usually won the game. If I were to return the hive limits to the game, it would have the onos <i>and</i> the fade tied to the central hive two. When hive two is takend own, the lifeforms are still useable and able to be evolved into. This would still have the "epic" battles that are produced by the importance of the second hive as well as give the aliens a fighting chance and prevent the landslide victory of marines if they lose the scond hive.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wrong. Turrets still did 10/11/12/13, cost 19 res, took 1 second to start firing at a target (meaning a skulk could strafe around a turret and it would never fire). OCs cost 14 res and had HORRIBLE accuracy. I can't remember the damage though, but it wasn't high.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true. I had the easiest time in the world as a skulk to circle-strafe bite a turret to death while taking 0 damage, thereby creating a blind spot on the TF to take down an entire farm in about 20 seconds.
OCs were also worthless unless you WoL'ed with them. They too missed far too easily. They had to physically block the way to present any sort of obstacle to marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nope. The hitbox is almost the same as now. The fade now has 300/150, whereas the 1.0x fade had 200/100. That means it can take LESS damage. However, if you just dance the fade back and forth hiding from behind a wall, and just spam acid rockets, very few bullets will hit you, leading to perceived longevity. If you were to play the blink/slash style you'd be utterly massacred even in 1.04x. Chalk it up to the weapon rather than the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also true. Ambushing fades worked really well, even as a solo LMG marine. Fades with support from the 5/6 umbra were another story, though. =[ They could just stand in the open and bathe everyone in acid spam while taking like, no damage at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes and no. The onos now is 700/600, but the hitboxes make it easy to hit. The old onos had 500/150. If you happened to run into 2 normal marines who knew where the hitbox is, you'd be dead to 2 LMGs, and they wouldn't even have finished their clips. It just wasn't intuitive, so it was changed. I agree with the change made, but it still needs work. Read somewhere the devs are still trying to find a way for the onos, but we'll see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true that onos were much easier to kill, but you also forget that onos had the crazy instant-death-touch ability that was charge at 100 FPS. Even level 3 HA died in like, 1 second from that. LA marines died instantly and en masse. You could buldoze through a hallway of them in like half a second.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first 2.5 minutes of 1.0x are exactly as it is now, with solo marines wandering the map and MASSACRING skulks that died in 7/8? LMG bullets. It was actually easier to hit since the hitbox was taller. It wasn't uncommon to see good players solo 3 skulks at a time with 1 LMG clip. After that, marines go in groups. Why? Because 3 DCs come up, bringing the skulk from 8 bullets to 21 bullets with carapace.
Unless you're a god or have aimbot, no solo marine is going to be able to survive that skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. You forget that the hitboxes were bigger and much less dodgy (emptying half a LMG clip before he closed the distance wasn't THAT hard), plus the skulk bite had a huge knockback. It was particularly noticeable (and ridiculous) if you jumped just before he bit you -- you'd be knocked cleanly across the room, buying you enough time to reload/switch to pistol and finish him off. Also remember that marines could bunny hop, making it hell for a skulk to bite you in the first place.
You'd be walking downt he hallway with your SG, and you'd hear a bzzz and think "OhShit!" *FWAP* You spin around, and fire an SG shot to where it's head would be, but it's now blinked THRU you to the other side, so you whirl around and fill it with lead. At the last second itd blink away, only to return instantly and finish you off. THERE WAS NO HIDING as a fade! And this "Shot Mid Blink" BS didn't happen<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree the old catapult blink was neat, it was too damn unreliable. Half the time I'd end up stuck in a brush or halfway into the ceiling or some crap like that. No /stuck plugin back then either, or at least, it wasn't very common.
Nowadays, we no longer hear of "The Legendary Onos"........
Seriously, it was true terror for every single marine as they hear the roar of a evolved Onos, it spelled death for them. And most of all, we hardly even saw the Onos.
Nowadays times have changed. A single good HMG marine laughs at an Onos even for 1-on-1.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Bry+Jun 26 2005, 08:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bry @ Jun 26 2005, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> while entities were cut down after 1.04 im starting to wonder whether the entity limit to keep server cpu down low is still warranted. back when 1.04 is out we had consdierably slower cpus. Now most decent server hosts use cpus >2.5ghz (or equivilent) with a gigabyte of ram.
Would these extra entities really pose such a massive drain on these cpus? My answer is an almsot definite no. Why? As many of you know i run 1.04 steam weekends and while server cpu usage is higher it is not that much higher like 5-10% on my xeon based system. Certainly nothing taxing. Yes however i do admit this is a high end server but, i am beginning to think with increasing cpu speeds and performance as to whether the current ns entitiy limit should not be revised <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> actually, we as a game mod team have to consider the larger community. This includes and is not limited to pay servers. Higher cpu usage means higher cost for the server. This was a huge problem in the 1.04 days, even with Xeons. Even now NS still has rather high cpu usage.
we understand we just want to show what and why we think 1.0x was better. its all opinion in the end <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Haze+Jun 23 2005, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze @ Jun 23 2005, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No RFK <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The only one i can really comment on ( i started playing just as 2.0 was released)
I hate RFK. The strong get much stronger and the losing team falls behind ever farther. It's res breeds res. That hmg kills 5 skulks easily for ~ 10 res. A decent fade can pay for itself before long. Killing the enemy is enough in itself.
<!--QuoteBegin-frostymoose+Jun 28 2005, 10:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (frostymoose @ Jun 28 2005, 10:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Haze+Jun 23 2005, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze @ Jun 23 2005, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No RFK <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only one i can really comment on ( i started playing just as 2.0 was released)
I hate RFK. The strong get much stronger and the losing team falls behind ever farther. It's res breeds res. That hmg kills 5 skulks easily for ~ 10 res. A decent fade can pay for itself before long. Killing the enemy is enough in itself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. RFK ends games faster, and the marine economy NEEDS IT (otherwise comm cant drop meds / ammo). DONT REMOVE RFK UNLESS YOU WANT TO REBALANCE THE RESMODEL!
I dont get how half of you guys get stuck in mapwork when using blink. I used it all the time, and the only thing I found is that you couldnt always activate it due to the limitations of needing an open space to teleport to. But, it was awesome because one teleport would send you down the longest hallway in less than a second.
I also remember the days of the gunship known as the lerk. His old flight made it possible to look to your left/behind you and shoot while flying forward. It was common to see a lerk swoop in, blast away at marines with spikes, and flight off before he was killed. It took a considerable ammount of skill to do, compared to the new lerk style at least.
I also remember when shotguns were rarely dropped, and mines littered the walls ^_^
xtcmenJoin Date: 2004-04-20Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-Vermillion+Jun 28 2005, 05:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vermillion @ Jun 28 2005, 05:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no it doesnt... 1.0x did not have r4k and games lasted longer afaik <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nice sig, its 1337. Put it in quotes like this
<!--QuoteBegin-ThorStryker+Jun 28 2005, 04:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThorStryker @ Jun 28 2005, 04:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont get how half of you guys get stuck in mapwork when using blink. I used it all the time, and the only thing I found is that you couldnt always activate it due to the limitations of needing an open space to teleport to. But, it was awesome because one teleport would send you down the longest hallway in less than a second.
I also remember the days of the gunship known as the lerk. His old flight made it possible to look to your left/behind you and shoot while flying forward. It was common to see a lerk swoop in, blast away at marines with spikes, and flight off before he was killed. It took a considerable ammount of skill to do, compared to the new lerk style at least.
I also remember when shotguns were rarely dropped, and mines littered the walls ^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the reason the old blink sucked, and sucked hard, was because you had no way of controlling it. you ever got a fade into a vent in the wall with the old blink? it never worked. you ever blink/slash/blink attack heavy marines with the old blink? no? then old blink sucked
</li></ul>The limits in the mapping guidelines limiting how many entitys and such you can have on one map were not in place during 1.0x. Maps could have nearly as much as they wanted and were much more interesting (in my opinon) than they were now. Although major kudos to the mappers working with this limitation now and having the beautiful maps that they do.
<b><u>Pros</b></u> -Much more active and beautiful maps. The overall look was better and mappers didnt have to be stingy with the details.
<b><u>Cons</b></u> -Slow down. Players with lower end rigs would have a rougher time running the game (one of Charlie's main concerns was letting players that have low end machines be able to run the game) as well as servers occasionally bogging down from all the activity, although that was partly due to a bug as well (which has been nipped in the booty). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's inaccurate.
Entities are handled server-side, and Half-Life makes regular checks for the status of these entities and sends them back to the player.
More entities = More CPU usage on the server = More lag. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah damn, Mendy beat me to it (HdP <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). I'd just add that Mapping for NS has been a challenge that has vastly improved my mapping knowledge. DM-style Mod mapping wouldn't have taught me the intricacies of texture-lighting, sensible entity use and brushwork optimisation. It's also givn me an incredible amount of understanding of how to balance maps for multiplayer. If they hadn't made those limits they would have a bunch of super-moody, super-unbalanced and super-unstable maps.
Within the past few months the "new wave" of NS maps have been produced with the majority near completion. This New-Wave is maps that manage to reach an effective comprimise between atmosphere and looks, using techniques at the forefront of an Engine that is almost 7 years old (Half-Life), which in turn was based on lines of code written for Engines that are as old as 9 years old (Quakeworld Source Code). So just to add to Mendasp's point, a lot of those changes, including things like the removal of Babblers just had to be done.
Most of the old things have been sensibly chenged to better game experience.
Fades are quality now. Long-distance shooting just isn't what NS is about, it's about being flexible (So shooting and close-combat). If you want to shoot on whichever team you join there are tons of Mods you can turn to.
Oni are being addressed, nuff said.
---
Things I miss include the 'Code: Brown' Onos, the longer, more epic games and being new to it all.
yes those were the good old days... i can almost relive them since reading you post... o wait, i started playing ns in september of 04 (beta 5)... and ns came out around 2 years before... owell, sounds like it was just as alive as it is now... wish there was a way i could test the older versions out, ive only experienced 2 updates... and they were pretty major
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
being new aint cool now.
in 1.04 when I started nearly all players where newbie friendly, now if a newbie actually asks to learn something (which to me is best scenario, he ASKS), ppl start flaming the poor newbie. I mean, HTF is he gona learn else.
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Jun 28 2005, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Jun 28 2005, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-frostymoose+Jun 28 2005, 10:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (frostymoose @ Jun 28 2005, 10:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Haze+Jun 23 2005, 02:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Haze @ Jun 23 2005, 02:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No RFK <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only one i can really comment on ( i started playing just as 2.0 was released)
I hate RFK. The strong get much stronger and the losing team falls behind ever farther. It's res breeds res. That hmg kills 5 skulks easily for ~ 10 res. A decent fade can pay for itself before long. Killing the enemy is enough in itself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. RFK ends games faster, and the marine economy NEEDS IT (otherwise comm cant drop meds / ammo). DONT REMOVE RFK UNLESS YOU WANT TO REBALANCE THE RESMODEL! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its hardly needed. It prevents spamming. Medpacks shouldnt be considered something special to drop for marines that shouldnt tax the team. If you spam you get the consiquences.. (sp) hardly need to <i>rebalance the entire resmodel.</i> Exaduration much.
xtcmenJoin Date: 2004-04-20Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
IMO rfk is 1337. Usually in Pubs I try to cap as many res nodes as possible (because most of the new players don't do it and the poor comm has no res) After capping, I go around and kill skulks stuff like that and try to get in as much res as possible. More res = win!
<!--QuoteBegin-xtcmen+Jun 29 2005, 09:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xtcmen @ Jun 29 2005, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IMO rfk is 1337. Usually in Pubs I try to cap as many res nodes as possible (because most of the new players don't do it and the poor comm has no res) After capping, I go around and kill skulks stuff like that and try to get in as much res as possible. More res = win! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you gain res faster = you win faster = shorter games = not good. Hence why RFK = bad.
Yeah.. RFK puts an unnecessary slope on small victories pushing them to larger victories making it so one mistakes can cost you the entire the game, sometimes no matter how small it is. It completely deminishes one of the greatest aspects of the game -- <b>making a comeback.</b> Its a useless addition that only rewards selfish play on the alien side and ramboing on the marine side...
xtcmenJoin Date: 2004-04-20Member: 28040Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-IBT+Jul 1 2005, 09:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (IBT @ Jul 1 2005, 09:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-xtcmen+Jun 29 2005, 09:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xtcmen @ Jun 29 2005, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> IMO rfk is 1337. Usually in Pubs I try to cap as many res nodes as possible (because most of the new players don't do it and the poor comm has no res) After capping, I go around and kill skulks stuff like that and try to get in as much res as possible. More res = win! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you gain res faster = you win faster = shorter games = not good. Hence why RFK = bad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not neccesarly. You can have all the res in the world, and if your team doesn't use teamwork, your will not win. RFK is helpful in the long games, when you have no nodes. If someone kills like 6 skulks with an HMG, it pays for itself, and you might gain 1, or 2 res out of it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jul 2 2005, 06:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jul 2 2005, 06:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> RFK also gives a little back to the individual while still benefitting the whole team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes but it promotes spawn camping(i could care less if leagues are fine with spawn camping) but i have heard way to many comanders saying "spawn campem i need the res" i ban them from my server. The commanders that promote it and the player that do it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Crispy+Jul 2 2005, 06:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crispy @ Jul 2 2005, 06:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> RFK also gives a little back to the individual while still benefitting the whole team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why does the individual need something back (and this basically only applies to aliens) from killing someone? The game needs to be more about <i>securing res nodes</i> for your <i>res.</i> If someones good enough on the alien team they dont need many res nodes to supliment their res at all. The same goes for marine team. This only goes to remove the strategy aspect -- one of NS's <b>most attracting</b> aspects -- further and further from the game.
Comments
I sure hope you enjoyed that version, especially since it never existed! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
he forgot the 0 infront of the 4!
You sure got him! Good one buddy! ^5 (that's an E-High five - get it? ponce!)
There might be the extremely rare server running 1.0x. However its likely that no one is in it. Trust me, the game was fun, but it required an extremely good community of players to show its potential. RIP readyroom.org
I dont think having an overpowered onos at hive 2 wouldnt be fun. The fact that something is roving around the map that can make mince meat of your entire squad -- and its another player, is absolutely awesome.
However, as stated before, balance does not mean even. A skulk is not even with a shotty marine down a long corridor and a lot of "balance" relies on variables. 1.0x wasnt balanced, but wasnt horridly skewed to one side. (ASIDE FROM JP/HMG. Yeesh. <i>I</i> found a good server) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but it was horridly skewed, in favor of marines. the gameplay mechanics all led to stronger marines and weaker aliens. skulks were no match for marines because each time they used upgrades it costs 2 res, 2 hives = 4 res. and with skulks as fragile and useless as they were, it was unsustainable and most skulks went out vanilla to be slaughtered. the hive restrictions was worst. losing a hive was a gamebreaker because of the whole slippery slope thing (I hope you remember the thread, as i'm not gonna go into detail) there was no way to comeback. losing an entire tier of tech was too much considering the huge power difference between hive levels. add in some jp/hmg lamage and the impotent lerk they had back then, it was impossible for aliens to win unless under the best of cicumstances. it only seemed balance at first because players were slow to catch on to marine tactics that were nearly sure-win. 2 hive lockdown in 1.0x = sure win. in 2.0+ it was wait until fades or oni come to knock down your expansions cause you were spread too far apart
and you misunderstand me on the balance issue. with teams differing so much in a game such as NS, balance will never be unit_x >= unit_y. it'll always be with a given resource on both sides, they should have roughly equal chance to win, with skill being the deciding factor.
sure i had a lot of fun jp/hmging skulks and ripping marines to shreds as onos, but when you are owning on such a level the game becomes pointless and not fun for the other team. now, instead of LOADS of fun for the best exploiters of super-units, the fun is spread more across all units on both teams (except fades, who have fun all the damn time). and if that's not satisfying enough for you, you can hatch some ideas for improvement and put them in I&S. 1.0x was left in the dust because it frankly didn't work well
I dont think having an overpowered onos at hive 2 wouldnt be fun. The fact that something is roving around the map that can make mince meat of your entire squad -- and its another player, is absolutely awesome.
However, as stated before, balance does not mean even. A skulk is not even with a shotty marine down a long corridor and a lot of "balance" relies on variables. 1.0x wasnt balanced, but wasnt horridly skewed to one side. (ASIDE FROM JP/HMG. Yeesh. <i>I</i> found a good server) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but it was horridly skewed, in favor of marines. the gameplay mechanics all led to stronger marines and weaker aliens. skulks were no match for marines because each time they used upgrades it costs 2 res, 2 hives = 4 res. and with skulks as fragile and useless as they were, it was unsustainable and most skulks went out vanilla to be slaughtered. the hive restrictions was worst. losing a hive was a gamebreaker because of the whole slippery slope thing (I hope you remember the thread, as i'm not gonna go into detail) there was no way to comeback. losing an entire tier of tech was too much considering the huge power difference between hive levels. add in some jp/hmg lamage and the impotent lerk they had back then, it was impossible for aliens to win unless under the best of cicumstances. it only seemed balance at first because players were slow to catch on to marine tactics that were nearly sure-win. 2 hive lockdown in 1.0x = sure win. in 2.0+ it was wait until fades or oni come to knock down your expansions cause you were spread too far apart
and you misunderstand me on the balance issue. with teams differing so much in a game such as NS, balance will never be unit_x >= unit_y. it'll always be with a given resource on both sides, they should have roughly equal chance to win, with skill being the deciding factor.
sure i had a lot of fun jp/hmging skulks and ripping marines to shreds as onos, but when you are owning on such a level the game becomes pointless and not fun for the other team. now, instead of LOADS of fun for the best exploiters of super-units, the fun is spread more across all units on both teams (except fades, who have fun all the damn time). and if that's not satisfying enough for you, you can hatch some ideas for improvement and put them in I&S. 1.0x was left in the dust because it frankly didn't work well <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aye, I'm only touching on (in my opinion) the good aspects of 1.0x. The hive limits was something that I thought was important to NS. It focused on hive importance and really gave it a heartpounding feel as both sides went up against it and really raised the fun for me. Indeed, whoever won that hive usually won the game. If I were to return the hive limits to the game, it would have the onos <i>and</i> the fade tied to the central hive two. When hive two is takend own, the lifeforms are still useable and able to be evolved into. This would still have the "epic" battles that are produced by the importance of the second hive as well as give the aliens a fighting chance and prevent the landslide victory of marines if they lose the scond hive.
This is true. I had the easiest time in the world as a skulk to circle-strafe bite a turret to death while taking 0 damage, thereby creating a blind spot on the TF to take down an entire farm in about 20 seconds.
OCs were also worthless unless you WoL'ed with them. They too missed far too easily. They had to physically block the way to present any sort of obstacle to marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nope. The hitbox is almost the same as now. The fade now has 300/150, whereas the 1.0x fade had 200/100. That means it can take LESS damage. However, if you just dance the fade back and forth hiding from behind a wall, and just spam acid rockets, very few bullets will hit you, leading to perceived longevity. If you were to play the blink/slash style you'd be utterly massacred even in 1.04x. Chalk it up to the weapon rather than the fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also true. Ambushing fades worked really well, even as a solo LMG marine. Fades with support from the 5/6 umbra were another story, though. =[ They could just stand in the open and bathe everyone in acid spam while taking like, no damage at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes and no. The onos now is 700/600, but the hitboxes make it easy to hit. The old onos had 500/150. If you happened to run into 2 normal marines who knew where the hitbox is, you'd be dead to 2 LMGs, and they wouldn't even have finished their clips. It just wasn't intuitive, so it was changed. I agree with the change made, but it still needs work. Read somewhere the devs are still trying to find a way for the onos, but we'll see.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's true that onos were much easier to kill, but you also forget that onos had the crazy instant-death-touch ability that was charge at 100 FPS. Even level 3 HA died in like, 1 second from that. LA marines died instantly and en masse. You could buldoze through a hallway of them in like half a second.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Jun 24 2005, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first 2.5 minutes of 1.0x are exactly as it is now, with solo marines wandering the map and MASSACRING skulks that died in 7/8? LMG bullets. It was actually easier to hit since the hitbox was taller. It wasn't uncommon to see good players solo 3 skulks at a time with 1 LMG clip. After that, marines go in groups. Why? Because 3 DCs come up, bringing the skulk from 8 bullets to 21 bullets with carapace.
Unless you're a god or have aimbot, no solo marine is going to be able to survive that skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really. You forget that the hitboxes were bigger and much less dodgy (emptying half a LMG clip before he closed the distance wasn't THAT hard), plus the skulk bite had a huge knockback. It was particularly noticeable (and ridiculous) if you jumped just before he bit you -- you'd be knocked cleanly across the room, buying you enough time to reload/switch to pistol and finish him off. Also remember that marines could bunny hop, making it hell for a skulk to bite you in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Jun 25 2005, 02:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Jun 25 2005, 02:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the old blink ROCKED
You'd be walking downt he hallway with your SG, and you'd hear a bzzz and think "OhShit!"
*FWAP*
You spin around, and fire an SG shot to where it's head would be, but it's now blinked THRU you to the other side, so you whirl around and fill it with lead. At the last second itd blink away, only to return instantly and finish you off. THERE WAS NO HIDING as a fade! And this "Shot Mid Blink" BS didn't happen<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I agree the old catapult blink was neat, it was too damn unreliable. Half the time I'd end up stuck in a brush or halfway into the ceiling or some crap like that. No /stuck plugin back then either, or at least, it wasn't very common.
Seriously, it was true terror for every single marine as they hear the roar of a evolved Onos, it spelled death for them. And most of all, we hardly even saw the Onos.
Nowadays times have changed. A single good HMG marine laughs at an Onos even for 1-on-1.
back when 1.04 is out we had consdierably slower cpus. Now most decent server hosts use cpus >2.5ghz (or equivilent) with a gigabyte of ram.
Would these extra entities really pose such a massive drain on these cpus? My answer is an almsot definite no.
Why?
As many of you know i run 1.04 steam weekends and while server cpu usage is higher it is not that much higher like 5-10% on my xeon based system. Certainly nothing taxing. Yes however i do admit this is a high end server but, i am beginning to think with increasing cpu speeds and performance as to whether the current ns entitiy limit should not be revised <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
actually, we as a game mod team have to consider the larger community. This includes and is not limited to pay servers. Higher cpu usage means higher cost for the server. This was a huge problem in the 1.04 days, even with Xeons. Even now NS still has rather high cpu usage.
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The only one i can really comment on ( i started playing just as 2.0 was released)
I hate RFK. The strong get much stronger and the losing team falls behind ever farther. It's res breeds res. That hmg kills 5 skulks easily for ~ 10 res. A decent fade can pay for itself before long. Killing the enemy is enough in itself.
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The only one i can really comment on ( i started playing just as 2.0 was released)
I hate RFK. The strong get much stronger and the losing team falls behind ever farther. It's res breeds res. That hmg kills 5 skulks easily for ~ 10 res. A decent fade can pay for itself before long. Killing the enemy is enough in itself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. RFK ends games faster, and the marine economy NEEDS IT (otherwise comm cant drop meds / ammo). DONT REMOVE RFK UNLESS YOU WANT TO REBALANCE THE RESMODEL!
I also remember the days of the gunship known as the lerk. His old flight made it possible to look to your left/behind you and shoot while flying forward. It was common to see a lerk swoop in, blast away at marines with spikes, and flight off before he was killed. It took a considerable ammount of skill to do, compared to the new lerk style at least.
I also remember when shotguns were rarely dropped, and mines littered the walls ^_^
Nice sig, its 1337. Put it in quotes like this
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->imo ns was fun..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also remember the days of the gunship known as the lerk. His old flight made it possible to look to your left/behind you and shoot while flying forward. It was common to see a lerk swoop in, blast away at marines with spikes, and flight off before he was killed. It took a considerable ammount of skill to do, compared to the new lerk style at least.
I also remember when shotguns were rarely dropped, and mines littered the walls ^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the reason the old blink sucked, and sucked hard, was because you had no way of controlling it. you ever got a fade into a vent in the wall with the old blink? it never worked. you ever blink/slash/blink attack heavy marines with the old blink? no? then old blink sucked
</li><li>Map Limits
</li></ul>The limits in the mapping guidelines limiting how many entitys and such you can have on one map were not in place during 1.0x. Maps could have nearly as much as they wanted and were much more interesting (in my opinon) than they were now. Although major kudos to the mappers working with this limitation now and having the beautiful maps that they do.
<b><u>Pros</b></u>
-Much more active and beautiful maps. The overall look was better and mappers didnt have to be stingy with the details.
<b><u>Cons</b></u>
-Slow down. Players with lower end rigs would have a rougher time running the game (one of Charlie's main concerns was letting players that have low end machines be able to run the game) as well as servers occasionally bogging down from all the activity, although that was partly due to a bug as well (which has been nipped in the booty). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's inaccurate.
Entities are handled server-side, and Half-Life makes regular checks for the status of these entities and sends them back to the player.
More entities = More CPU usage on the server = More lag. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah damn, Mendy beat me to it (HdP <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->). I'd just add that Mapping for NS has been a challenge that has vastly improved my mapping knowledge. DM-style Mod mapping wouldn't have taught me the intricacies of texture-lighting, sensible entity use and brushwork optimisation. It's also givn me an incredible amount of understanding of how to balance maps for multiplayer. If they hadn't made those limits they would have a bunch of super-moody, super-unbalanced and super-unstable maps.
Within the past few months the "new wave" of NS maps have been produced with the majority near completion. This New-Wave is maps that manage to reach an effective comprimise between atmosphere and looks, using techniques at the forefront of an Engine that is almost 7 years old (Half-Life), which in turn was based on lines of code written for Engines that are as old as 9 years old (Quakeworld Source Code). So just to add to Mendasp's point, a lot of those changes, including things like the removal of Babblers just had to be done.
Most of the old things have been sensibly chenged to better game experience.
Fades are quality now. Long-distance shooting just isn't what NS is about, it's about being flexible (So shooting and close-combat). If you want to shoot on whichever team you join there are tons of Mods you can turn to.
Oni are being addressed, nuff said.
---
Things I miss include the 'Code: Brown' Onos, the longer, more epic games and being new to it all.
in 1.04 when I started nearly all players where newbie friendly, now if a newbie actually asks to learn something (which to me is best scenario, he ASKS), ppl start flaming the poor newbie. I mean, HTF is he gona learn else.
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The only one i can really comment on ( i started playing just as 2.0 was released)
I hate RFK. The strong get much stronger and the losing team falls behind ever farther. It's res breeds res. That hmg kills 5 skulks easily for ~ 10 res. A decent fade can pay for itself before long. Killing the enemy is enough in itself. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. RFK ends games faster, and the marine economy NEEDS IT (otherwise comm cant drop meds / ammo). DONT REMOVE RFK UNLESS YOU WANT TO REBALANCE THE RESMODEL! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its hardly needed. It prevents spamming. Medpacks shouldnt be considered something special to drop for marines that shouldnt tax the team. If you spam you get the consiquences.. (sp) hardly need to <i>rebalance the entire resmodel.</i> Exaduration much.
you gain res faster = you win faster = shorter games = not good.
Hence why RFK = bad.
you gain res faster = you win faster = shorter games = not good.
Hence why RFK = bad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not neccesarly. You can have all the res in the world, and if your team doesn't use teamwork, your will not win. RFK is helpful in the long games, when you have no nodes. If someone kills like 6 skulks with an HMG, it pays for itself, and you might gain 1, or 2 res out of it.
yes but it promotes spawn camping(i could care less if leagues are fine with spawn camping) but i have heard way to many comanders saying "spawn campem i need the res" i ban them from my server. The commanders that promote it and the player that do it.
I am running a 1.04 Server set to ns_bast. its not that great of a server but it gets the job done. its located in so. cal.
Why does the individual need something back (and this basically only applies to aliens) from killing someone? The game needs to be more about <i>securing res nodes</i> for your <i>res.</i> If someones good enough on the alien team they dont need many res nodes to supliment their res at all. The same goes for marine team. This only goes to remove the strategy aspect -- one of NS's <b>most attracting</b> aspects -- further and further from the game.