Tasers In Schools

DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
Should we allow them.
A hot topic in Jacksonville and around the country is Tasers. Jacksonville Sheriff John Rutherford is considering issuing them to SROs (School Resource Officers) in the schools. He has held several town meetings within the community to get the publics input.

Sheriff says he's inclined to return Tasers to schools

QUOTE
Florida Times-Union | May 31, 2005
By BRIDGET MURPHY

Sheriff John Rutherford said he plans to put Tasers back on Jacksonville streets and likely will arm school resource officers as well, although those officers would have a tougher set of rules for stun gun use.

Rutherford said he believes Tasers can be effectively and safely used by police officers in schools and a likely compromise to banning the stun guns would be to order officers to use the devices only in cases where lethal force is needed.

The sheriff said he hopes to make a decision about whether to arm school resource officers with Tasers before the new school year starts, and he'll reserve final judgment until he finishes hearing from community members at the last of several town-hall meetings that began weeks ago.

The sheriff pulled Tasers off the streets in February, putting the agency's $1.8 million stock into storage. But he said Friday Tasers will be re-deployed on the streets after a task force formed in April comes up with guidelines for how police officers should engage people who may be medically pre-disposed to dying in police struggles, including when Tasers are used.

The task force includes doctors and members of the Jacksonville Fire and Rescue Department. The last three community meetings on Taser use will be held in June.

Rutherford, who was Tasered at a January news conference in an effort to show the devices are safe, said his impression from community meetings that already have been held is that once parents understand how Tasers work, they are pretty comfortable with the idea of having them in schools.

Not everyone agrees, however, with representatives from the American Civil Liberties Union and National Association for the Advancement of Colored People speaking out against the devices at at least one of the meetings.

A Jacksonville sheriff's officer got a three-day suspension this month after he Tasered a 13-year-old, 65-pound handcuffed girl in February as she kicked the inside of his police cruiser. Rutherford said Friday he believes that officer used poor judgment.

Critics of the devices point to deaths that have resulted after police Taser use.

The 50,000-volt devices shoot two barbs into a target through which electricity flows, temporarily incapacitating a person. They also can be used in stun mode, as happened with the 13-year-old, when a shock is localized in the area of the body where the device is placed.

Taser timeline

May 2004

It is announced Jacksonville police officers may get assault rifles and Tasers through Mayor John Peyton's $43 million Safety First Initiative.

January

Police who serve as school resource officers at middle and high schools soon will start carrying Tasers, the Sheriff's Office said. The agency has signed a $1.8 million contract with Taser International to buy 1,800 stun guns in the next two years.

February

Amid public pressure, the sheriff suspends use of Tasers until a more detailed policy and training program are in place. At a town hall meeting, he says he'll re-evaluate the plan to use Tasers in schools.

March

Jacksonville Sheriff's Office officials defend an officer's decision to use a Taser on a 65-pound 13-year-old girl who was handcuffed and in the back of a police car, but the state attorney said he had "serious concerns."

The sheriff announces 14 community meetings to talk about future of Tasers in Jacksonville, with 75 people attending the first meeting. Representatives from the NAACP and American Civil Liberties Union speak against Tasers.

April

The Sheriff's Office announces a task force to develop standards for how officers deal with people who may be medically predisposed to dying in police custody when officers use force, including Tasers, in struggles.

Should School Resource Officers carry Tasers in public schools? Discuss ...
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Comments

  • reasareasa Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation Posts: 2,367
    In Texas....yes.
  • LegionnairedLegionnaired Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation Posts: 3,260
    Issue them to every student with above a 3.2 GPA, or every member of National Honors Society, and teach them how to use it.
    In the end, science does not provide us the answers most of us require.[...]To the question, "How did it all begin?", science answers, "Probably by accident." To the question "How will it end?" science answers, "Probably by accident." To many people, the accidental life is not worth living.
  • SkySky Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Members Posts: 3,669
    And...this is necessary, because? I'm sorry, but I don't see any gang violence in my school. The only messed up kids around here are stoners and drunks, and tasers really wouldn't help with them...
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  • NumbersNotFoundNumbersNotFound Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7556Members Posts: 1,937
    QUOTE (Legionnaired @ Jun 13 2005, 10:52 PM)
    Issue them to every student with above a 3.2 GPA, or every member of National Honors Society, and teach them how to use it.

    Bad idea.

    I've known some pretty crumby kids in NHS. Plus, it's further creating a "upper class" of high school, something which I think is just wrong.

    Tasers should only be used in extreme circumstance. From watching Cops or reading Fark for awhile, it seems that even police use them just as a means of compliance. I think they should only be used when an officer is in danger or if physical force isn't working.
    QUOTE (Geminosity @ Aug 1 2005, 07:31 PM)
    depot that joke was so bad I lost 30hp :p
  • ubermenschubermensch Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11692Banned Posts: 493
    It's getting opposition from American Civil Liberties Union and National Association for the Advancement of Colored People?

    Are tasers on the list of obstacles blocking achievement for Colored People? Hilarious.

    I'm all for it. As people in the NS community should know well, some people just don't **** learn.
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  • LegatLegat Join Date: 2003-07-02 Member: 17868Members Posts: 817
    Ahh yes. The joy of less than lethal weaponry. Anyone got a study about fatality rates handy?
  • TrevelyanTrevelyan Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14834Members Posts: 2,227
    Now what happened to good old fashioned batons? which were used soley to beat knowledge into children.
    Don't Die!

    LOVE NATURAL-SELECTION HARDER!

    It seems the only way to change anything this day and age is to kill. Whatever happened to talking?

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  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
    Look at this from a different perspective: would you like the SRO using a pistol, or a Taser? Because if he doesn't carry the Taser, the gun's going to be his primary weapon, as in slot 1.
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  • CageyCagey Ex-Unknown Worlds Programmer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8829Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,751
    QUOTE (Depot @ Jun 14 2005, 02:54 AM)
    Because if he doesn't carry the Taser, the gun's going to be his primary weapon, as in slot 1.

    Trevelyan brought this up already: Go directly to jail... skip self-defense training and police baton use, do not collect $200? Not that I'd really prefer being beaten with a stick to being electrified in a theoretical violent situation, but police officers really ought to have training in how to subdue a violent person without needing a weapon at all. If they think of a pistol or a taser as a primary response, there's something seriously wrong.

    One captain in the Arapahoe County Sheriff's Department (where I went to high school in Colorado) teaches a self-defense class that's mostly joint manipulation and holds--I would expect most officers who might actually have to arrest someone in day-to-day work to receive training in how to properly wrestle a suspect to the ground efficiently.

    If tasers are used as lethal force only weapons, I suppose that's better than shooting a kid with a pistol... but how many lethal force situations have there been at schools with officers in a position to respond quickly? Heck, I'd even take anecdotal evidence for this, since I seriously doubt there's a statistic.
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  • TalesinTalesin Our own little well of hate Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators Posts: 6,952 mod
    Cagey, there were a number at my high school. Severe fights where officer presence did NOT stop it, and seperation was impossible due to the size and number of combatants. Not to mention the idiots who made vinegar/baking soda bombs with GLASS bottles, instead of plastic like everyone else.



    As for NNF's comment about an 'upper class' in high school... guess who are the ones getting screwed with a majority of the time. Maybe the geeks? And just maybe the jerks would leave them alone, if they knew that there was a chance of being tasered if they went over the line too much.

    Hell, it'd beat having the geeks bring fully lethal weaponry to school the next day, and shoot them (and any number of others) in the face with a bullet that'd leave an exit hole the size of a watermelon.
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  • CageyCagey Ex-Unknown Worlds Programmer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8829Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 1,751
    QUOTE (Talesin @ Jun 14 2005, 03:34 AM)
    Cagey, there were a number at my high school. Severe fights where officer presence did NOT stop it, and seperation was impossible due to the size and number of combatants. Not to mention the idiots who made vinegar/baking soda bombs with GLASS bottles, instead of plastic like everyone else.

    Good enough for me--that's the anecdotal evidence I needed.
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  • CplDavisCplDavis I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members Posts: 4,153
    edited June 2005
    QUOTE (Cagey @ Jun 14 2005, 06:11 AM)
    QUOTE (Depot @ Jun 14 2005, 02:54 AM)
    Because if he doesn't carry the Taser, the gun's going to be his primary weapon, as in slot 1.

    Trevelyan brought this up already: Go directly to jail... skip self-defense training and police baton use, do not collect $200? Not that I'd really prefer being beaten with a stick to being electrified in a theoretical violent situation, but police officers really ought to have training in how to subdue a violent person without needing a weapon at all. If they think of a pistol or a taser as a primary response, there's something seriously wrong.

    One captain in the Arapahoe County Sheriff's Department (where I went to high school in Colorado) teaches a self-defense class that's mostly joint manipulation and holds--I would expect most officers who might actually have to arrest someone in day-to-day work to receive training in how to properly wrestle a suspect to the ground efficiently.

    If tasers are used as lethal force only weapons, I suppose that's better than shooting a kid with a pistol... but how many lethal force situations have there been at schools with officers in a position to respond quickly? Heck, I'd even take anecdotal evidence for this, since I seriously doubt there's a statistic.

    Police use the continum of force principle. You use the level of force that is one step above what the bad guy is using. And then only use the minimal amount of force needed to neutralise the situation.


    Officer presence
    Verbal commands
    soft empty hand tactics (mearly holding your arm, to arm bars, holds)
    Hard empty hand tactics (palm strikes etc)
    Baton == there is a sub continum here as well, hitting the leg vs. Hitting the head in extreme situations (where you would have to justify in court why you elevated to deadly force, as thats what that would be considered)
    Deadly force


    Pepperspray, TASERS and things like that overlap between Verbal and deadly, as you can use them anywhere in between if justified.

    Like I said police use one step higher than the aggressor to overcome the problem.

    If the badguy is passivly resisting ( talking trash, not really fighting, but wont put his hands behind his back for example) you could grab him= soft empty hand tactics

    If the man is actively fighting you and hard empty hand tactics dont work ( the man is on drugs, or just stronger than the officer etc, you could then jsutify going to that next step= baton. If said bad guy has a knife then you would go to your firearm. Once again. One step up.

    Police are trained in locks, holds, pressure points, disarming techniques, etc as again we try to use the minimal amount of force neciscary.

    TASERS and pepperspray are not primary weapons. There is no real primary weapon as you have to go up through the use of force continum so every situation has to be judged separatly.

    TASERS and peppersray are not lethal weapons. There are a few reports out there from various "research groups" who state that TASERS have killed people. Ive never seen this happen myself and the vast, vast majority of those reported deaths, were deaths that occured when criminals died from other complications not related to TASERS such as drug overdoses etc. The people doing the reports assume that since a TASER was used on them that, that must be what killed them when really its not, and the TASER had no part in killing them. They would have died regardless.

    If TASERS had issues with killing people, there is no way in hell they would be classed with the pepperspray and mace. if that where the case they would be classifed in the use of force spectrum up with deadly force only.

    On a side note, Id take getting hit with a TASER over getting peppersrayed any day.
    When you get hit with a TASER you fall over and it feels like the worst charlie horse cramp of your life for 5 seconds and its all over you are fine.

    You get a blast of pepperspray in the face your going to be in a world of hurt for the next 20 min. Your eyes will feel like a knife is in them for 20 min and your face will burn like the worst sunburn you have ever felt x2000 for 20 min. Plus you get to gush snot from your nose that drips all the way down to your shoes. wow.gif
    If the people be of sound mind, laws are unneccesary.
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  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
    Great post CplDavis, thanks for your input! wink-fix.gif
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  • Fog_cartoonsFog_cartoons Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20658Members Posts: 361
    edited June 2005
    All the same, electricity is the strangest form of offence. The pain is unbearable for the whole duration but afterwards you know you were hurt and yet there is no lasting pain.

    I have to agree with CplDavis I would take taser damage over peperspraying any day (not that I seem to be in that situation).

    The whole idea of 'the continum of force principle'. Seems very agreeable to me until it gets to the level of deadly force. I feel that in many situations there is no need for any kind of lethal attack.

    Back to the topic of tasers being used in schools I'm in general very shocked that it need come to this. What is bringing on the need for this? The area the school is in? The availability of weapons? Do we really need this?
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  • BulletHeadBulletHead Join Date: 2004-07-22 Member: 30049Members Posts: 2,530
    edited June 2005
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 13 2005, 11:00 PM)
    And...this is necessary, because? I'm sorry, but I don't see any gang violence in my school. The only messed up kids around here are stoners and drunks, and tasers really wouldn't help with them...

    Come to CD

    In CD High School, we see, on average

    14 fist fights
    1 armed fight (eg, knives)
    5"cat" fights
    1 bomb threat
    2 arrests for drug use/posession/selling
    1 arrest for misc reasons

    a WEEK

    Yeah... anyone who can prove themselves to be mature enough to carry one.

    I'd rather have a stun nade or a tether-taser

    EDIT-
    I VOLUNTARILY went thru an officer training program as part of my "probation" for "fighting in school" okay... so I didn't punch the kid back (he was hitting the BACK of my head... why the HELL should I hit him back? That doesn't hurt at all!) But I had the choice of "probation/community service" or having that on my perm record.

    Well, in order to train to use Mace/Pepperspray/TASERS, you must be SUBJECTED to each one

    Let me tell you, the TASER was FUN compared to the mace / pepperspray... oh dear JESUS that mace was horrible!
    QUOTE (DragonMech @ Jul 9 2005, 09:19 PM)
    QUOTE (Sonic @ Jul 9 2005, 06:49 PM)
    I wish my butcheeks could propel me up flights of stairs are terrifying speeds.

    I sense a custom title right there... :D
  • SkySky Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Members Posts: 3,669
    QUOTE (BulletHead @ Jun 15 2005, 12:12 AM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 13 2005, 11:00 PM)
    And...this is necessary, because? I'm sorry, but I don't see any gang violence in my school. The only messed up kids around here are stoners and drunks, and tasers really wouldn't help with them...

    Come to CD

    In CD High School, we see, on average

    14 fist fights
    1 armed fight (eg, knives)
    5"cat" fights
    1 bomb threat
    2 arrests for drug use/posession/selling
    1 arrest for misc reasons

    a WEEK

    Alright, fine then. When was the last time students did any of those when a teacher or "SRO" was anywhere close, and could have gotten there in time to shock the crap outta the offending students? My thought is, if the kids want to fight, a guy with a taser isn't going to stop them, just like a hall monitor doesn't stop kids from sneaking out and into the high school.
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  • CplDavisCplDavis I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members Posts: 4,153
    edited June 2005
    QUOTE (Fog cartoons @ Jun 14 2005, 03:54 PM)
    The whole idea of 'the continum of force principle'. Seems very agreeable to me until it gets to the level of deadly force.  I feel that in many situations there is no need for any kind of lethal attack.


    Sorry to get a little off topic but i just wanted to add something about use of deadly force.


    Unfortunatly there are times when it is not only justified but nessicary as well, not just because the officers life is in danger but because the life of another innocent person is in danger.

    Ths type of thing (having to go to deadly force) will most likely never happen more than once in an officers career if at ever. Every call you go to you have treat it like it could be "that one". All your training both mental and physical and all of your expirience all adds up to that one instance that may never even come.

    That one call that just may determin if you go home at the end of your shift.

    btw, most officers who are involved in a deadly confrontation or even a non deadly shooting usually end up retireing within the next 3 to 5 years from the stress.


    If someone is trying to kill me obviously, im definitly going do my best to get him first. The goal of every police officer is go home safe at the end of their shift.

    In regards to any level of force that is used. It is the suspect who chooses to go down that path not the police officer. Its a reactive process.
    The police just cant draw down on someone b/c the person told him to "F" off.

    The police officer draws his weapon when the bad guy decides to do something that would warrent the officer to use that higher level of force.

    Now here is the hard part to type/describe so please bear with me.

    If anyone here has any heartache over the use of deadly force...

    And unless you know any police academy instructors or have been in one yourself, etc you have probably never seen these videos, If they are floating around somewhere on the internet they really should not be. These 2 cases are distinctly played and viewed as teaching aids to police.

    If ever you should watch either the Trooper Coates Shooting or the shooting Georgia Deputy Kyle Dinkheller dash cam videos...

    They are the video and audio taken directly from the cameras mounted inside the cars as they recorded 2 seemingly routine every day traffic stops for minor violations such as speeding.

    There is no background music edited in and there is no narrator doing commentary to make the viewer more detached.
    Its just the plain recorded feed. I myself have watched and seen some of the nastiest most grousome vids of things out there that are for whatever reasons posted on the internet and nothing has ever made me feel so angry, saddened, and emotional to the point where your chest gets all tight on the inside, as these 2 vids. They arnt all gory and bloody (although both the trooper and the deputy die), its just straight reality and its just horrible.

    Once again Ive seen a LOT of nasty stuff in my times both in person and in recorded video but these 2 vids just really do it. Call me a softy if you want. But dont judge unless you have seen these vids. The whole understanding of use of force becomes quite clear after you do. The officers tried everything they could to not use deadly force. Unfortunatly the suspects made their choice to escalate and unfortunatly they won in both cases or just got lucky. (Deputy Dinkheller was shot first one time with a little .22 caliber bullet that lodged into his aorta and caused him to bleed to death internaly. Dinkheller had shot his killer 5 times center mass with his .357 magnum and his killer survived.)
    sad-fix.gif


    back on topic. TASERS in schools, everyone has to remember that there is a lot of variation in school atmosphere and environment. To the ends of both extremes as well.

    I went to a fairly rich middle class suburban highschool. Lots of preppy spoiled kids.
    You would have the occasional fight in school and you had all of your standard groups of people. Plus the pot smokers and the drinkers. etc. Not too bad really.
    The school had some "security people" if thats what you want to call them. Basically glorified hall monitors. If they suddenly started to carry TASERS, yes there would be an uproar. I would probably object to it as well.

    Now on the other hand there are those schools that are patroled by police and sheriffs deputies. Schools that subject people to metal detectors and bag searches to get in. Schools with high crime rates, poor attendance, gang activity, kids are on probation for crimes commited both inside and outside the classroom, basiclly the complete opposet of my school. Trust me they are out there.
    Schools where kids wish they had body armour in school and most kids carry knives etc on them if not guns themselves.

    Yea if the police want TASERS there i would have no problem with it.
    If the people be of sound mind, laws are unneccesary.
    If the people be not of sound mind, laws are useless. --Plato
  • Fog_cartoonsFog_cartoons Join Date: 2003-09-08 Member: 20658Members Posts: 361
    I see and can understand your point but I still just don't like the idea of lethal force, its not that I don't think its not justified, I just don't like the idea of 'death to avoid death'.

    On a side note, whats the difference between pepperspray and mace?
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  • TalesinTalesin Our own little well of hate Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators Posts: 6,952 mod
    Pepperspray uses a suspension of capsicum. It's freaking annoying and burns like crazy, but if you've ever experienced ACTUAL mace... it's just a tickle by comparison.


    Also, sounds like a preppy school is where tasers are most needed. I know I'd love to fry the crap out of some snot-nosed kid born with a silver shovel in their mouth, complaining that their parents bought them a 3-series BMW instead of a 7-series.
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  • CplDavisCplDavis I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members Posts: 4,153
    QUOTE (Talesin @ Jun 15 2005, 10:53 AM)
    Pepperspray uses a suspension of capsicum. It's freaking annoying and burns like crazy, but if you've ever experienced ACTUAL mace... it's just a tickle by comparison.


    yea


    Mace is an irritant like tear gas, can make you cough feel sick maybe, burn eyes maybe if you are affected by it.

    Pepperspray is an inflammatory agent made up of oleorsein capiscum (OC= hence OC spray) ground up and put in vegatable oil. Its propelled by hydrogen gas. It inflames your cappilaries blinding you and making burning, making u gush snot etc.It can come in a liquid spray, a sticky foam that turns into a liquid, or a fine mist (fogger) Pepperspray will cause your eyes to slam shut and is affective in this matter to people who are highly intoxicated under alcohol or other drugs as well as people with mental issues. Even if you cant feel pain, you will be affected, Mace wont do that.

    Mace like TASER is also a brand name, not a general definition.
    If the people be of sound mind, laws are unneccesary.
    If the people be not of sound mind, laws are useless. --Plato
  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Talesin @ Jun 15 2005, 11:53 AM)
    Also, sounds like a preppy school is where tasers are most needed. I know I'd love to fry the crap out of some snot-nosed kid born with a silver shovel in their mouth, complaining that their parents bought them a 3-series BMW instead of a 7-series.

    QFT! My observations of the local school system have showed the magnet schools and/or the college prep schools to have the REAL brats.

    Maybe they get bored easily?
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  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 15 2005, 01:56 AM)
    QUOTE (BulletHead @ Jun 15 2005, 12:12 AM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 13 2005, 11:00 PM)
    And...this is necessary, because? I'm sorry, but I don't see any gang violence in my school. The only messed up kids around here are stoners and drunks, and tasers really wouldn't help with them...

    Come to CD

    In CD High School, we see, on average

    14 fist fights
    1 armed fight (eg, knives)
    5"cat" fights
    1 bomb threat
    2 arrests for drug use/posession/selling
    1 arrest for misc reasons

    a WEEK

    Alright, fine then. When was the last time students did any of those when a teacher or "SRO" was anywhere close, and could have gotten there in time to shock the crap outta the offending students? My thought is, if the kids want to fight, a guy with a taser isn't going to stop them, just like a hall monitor doesn't stop kids from sneaking out and into the high school.

    More often than you might think. Quite often in our school sytem as a matter of fact.

    Of course, until recently it used to be the largest fully accredited school system in Florida.
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  • SkySky Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Members Posts: 3,669
    QUOTE (Depot @ Jun 15 2005, 12:19 PM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 15 2005, 01:56 AM)
    QUOTE (BulletHead @ Jun 15 2005, 12:12 AM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 13 2005, 11:00 PM)
    And...this is necessary, because? I'm sorry, but I don't see any gang violence in my school. The only messed up kids around here are stoners and drunks, and tasers really wouldn't help with them...

    Come to CD

    In CD High School, we see, on average

    14 fist fights
    1 armed fight (eg, knives)
    5"cat" fights
    1 bomb threat
    2 arrests for drug use/posession/selling
    1 arrest for misc reasons

    a WEEK

    Alright, fine then. When was the last time students did any of those when a teacher or "SRO" was anywhere close, and could have gotten there in time to shock the crap outta the offending students? My thought is, if the kids want to fight, a guy with a taser isn't going to stop them, just like a hall monitor doesn't stop kids from sneaking out and into the high school.

    More often than you might think. Quite often in our school sytem as a matter of fact.

    Excuse me for asking, but how would you know? Are you in the high school on a day-to-day basis? Are you following kids around as they sneak past teachers, cut classes, leave school and come back, etc?
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  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 15 2005, 12:38 PM)
    QUOTE (Depot @ Jun 15 2005, 12:19 PM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 15 2005, 01:56 AM)
    QUOTE (BulletHead @ Jun 15 2005, 12:12 AM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 13 2005, 11:00 PM)
    And...this is necessary, because? I'm sorry, but I don't see any gang violence in my school. The only messed up kids around here are stoners and drunks, and tasers really wouldn't help with them...

    Come to CD

    In CD High School, we see, on average

    14 fist fights
    1 armed fight (eg, knives)
    5"cat" fights
    1 bomb threat
    2 arrests for drug use/posession/selling
    1 arrest for misc reasons

    a WEEK

    Alright, fine then. When was the last time students did any of those when a teacher or "SRO" was anywhere close, and could have gotten there in time to shock the crap outta the offending students? My thought is, if the kids want to fight, a guy with a taser isn't going to stop them, just like a hall monitor doesn't stop kids from sneaking out and into the high school.

    More often than you might think. Quite often in our school sytem as a matter of fact.

    Excuse me for asking, but how would you know? Are you in the high school on a day-to-day basis? Are you following kids around as they sneak past teachers, cut classes, leave school and come back, etc?

    I talk on a daily basis to many employees of the school board. Teachers, principals, administrators, even some that work for the superintendent. That on top of following the local news regularly and having a good handle on the situation we're discussing here has shown me that SRO's with Tasers CAN make a difference, AND respond in a timely manner. And the petty violations you mentioned have little to do with the need for Tasers to curb violent reactions.

    Hopefully Sherrif Rutherford will soon issue the order to allow tasers to be used in schools, again.
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  • SnidelySnidely Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members Posts: 3,896
    QUOTE (Talesin @ Jun 15 2005, 10:53 AM)
    Also, sounds like a preppy school is where tasers are most needed. I know I'd love to fry the crap out of some snot-nosed kid born with a silver shovel in their mouth, complaining that their parents bought them a 3-series BMW instead of a 7-series.

    Why stop at snot-nosed kids? Well, because the courts ruled against me. ):
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  • DaJMastaDaJMasta Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34750Members, Constellation Posts: 692
    Sorry for the slight OTness, i just think this line is the funniest thing in the world.

    QUOTE

    It is announced Jacksonville police officers may get assault rifles and Tasers through Mayor John Peyton's $43 million Safety First Initiative.


    tounge.gif
  • DepotDepot The ModFather Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7956Members Posts: 6,411 Fully active user
    edited June 2005
    QUOTE (DaJMasta @ Jun 15 2005, 01:07 PM)
    Sorry for the slight OTness, i just think this line is the funniest thing in the world.

    QUOTE

    It is announced Jacksonville police officers may get assault rifles and Tasers through Mayor John Peyton's $43 million Safety First Initiative.


    tounge.gif

    Unfortunately, what you quoted was just a timeline. You'd have to read that entire article to get it.
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  • DiazoDiazo Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25825Members Posts: 43
    I would have to say that I'm for issuing Tasers.

    If we look at the continum of force that CplDavis posted

    Officer presence
    Verbal commands
    soft empty hand tactics (mearly holding your arm, to arm bars, holds)
    Hard empty hand tactics (palm strikes etc)
    Baton
    Deadly force

    To me, there is a very large gap between Baton and Deadly Force, a gap that a Taser would help close, or at least make smaller.

    Really, the biggest advantage a taser has is that it allows an officer to use Less that Lethal force at a distance. Without a taser, if the close range options (empty-hand, baton) can't be used, the only option is the gun, which is deadly force.

    As for a taser causing deaths, my view is that the taser alone didn't cause the death. An "average" human can be hit by a taser and suffer no adverse effects (beyond the stun/knock down that is by design). It is when the person hit by the taser is not "average", ie: they are high on something, or they are already hurt somehow, that the taser can become deadly because it compounds these other problems that already exist.

    Or, as Cagey said, consider the Taser a Leathal force weapon, and only consider using it when the situation is bad enough that you are consider using your gun.

    Diazo
  • BulletHeadBulletHead Join Date: 2004-07-22 Member: 30049Members Posts: 2,530
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 15 2005, 12:56 AM)
    QUOTE (BulletHead @ Jun 15 2005, 12:12 AM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ Jun 13 2005, 11:00 PM)
    And...this is necessary, because? I'm sorry, but I don't see any gang violence in my school. The only messed up kids around here are stoners and drunks, and tasers really wouldn't help with them...

    Come to CD

    In CD High School, we see, on average

    14 fist fights
    1 armed fight (eg, knives)
    5"cat" fights
    1 bomb threat
    2 arrests for drug use/posession/selling
    1 arrest for misc reasons

    a WEEK

    Alright, fine then. When was the last time students did any of those when a teacher or "SRO" was anywhere close, and could have gotten there in time to shock the crap outta the offending students? My thought is, if the kids want to fight, a guy with a taser isn't going to stop them, just like a hall monitor doesn't stop kids from sneaking out and into the high school.

    Well, a knife fight broke out with the school officer standing there.

    I watched the entire thing unfold... it got scary when she drew her 9 mm and DEMANDED they stop fighting, and they STILL didn't stop. It didn't end till the one kid cut the other from the lower left of his chin up to the right of his nose. *sighs* I hate my school....
    QUOTE (DragonMech @ Jul 9 2005, 09:19 PM)
    QUOTE (Sonic @ Jul 9 2005, 06:49 PM)
    I wish my butcheeks could propel me up flights of stairs are terrifying speeds.

    I sense a custom title right there... :D
  • AntrelAntrel Join Date: 2005-02-11 Member: 40737Members Posts: 45
    I could name off a list of South Chicago schools that are much worse than yours. But that's another issue. I, personally, after having seen guns drawn by students several times in the school, don't have too many objections to tasers when absolutely needed. My only concern is the person having it using it whenever anything happens. I'd like it a lot better if they could be taught how to physically restrain someone rather than shoot them with a taser.
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