Why The American Government Is Falling Apart

moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva.Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
edited April 2005 in Discussions
in a microcosm
For christ's sake, if we can't even talk about the basic text of a bill in congress without partisan hackery, is there any hope of getting anything done?

http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/c...dsidebyside.pdf

Comments

  • SpoogeSpooge Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Members Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Posts: 1,531 Fully active user
    You mean like posing amendments that completely neuter the key priorities for which a bill is proposed?

    Doubtful. However, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe it hasn't worked this way since inception. No chicken littles here.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Spooge @ Apr 29 2005, 12:29 PM)
    You mean like posing amendments that completely neuter the key priorities for which a bill is proposed?

    No I don't "mean like" that. What are you getting at?
  • theclamtheclam Members Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Posts: 1,795
    QUOTE (Spooge @ Apr 29 2005, 12:29 PM)
    You mean like posing amendments that completely neuter the key priorities for which a bill is proposed?

    You're saying that a busdriver should be tried for unknowingly transporting a girl to another state in order for her to get an abortion?

    QUOTE
    Doubtful.  However, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe it hasn't worked this way since inception.  No chicken littles here.

    I agree with this.
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  • SpoogeSpooge Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Members Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Posts: 1,531 Fully active user
    As far as I'm concerned, it's unenforceable in it's current form. However, these amendments create the inevitable "loopholes" present in any federal law.

    Is it acceptable? Apparently, considering it happens all the time.

    Do I disagree with defining it in more literal terms for public notice? Not really.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    edited April 2005
    Neither of you have a problem with the official congressional logs stating that the amendments were designed to aid sexual predators? That's what I was getting at with the topic. This is public document, and its as simple a thing as summarising the effect of an amendment, and yet it still was polluted.
  • SpoogeSpooge Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Members Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Posts: 1,531 Fully active user
    Would you agree that if the ammendments were to pass, a sexual predator who happened to be a cab driver would be allowed to take a minor over State borders for the purpose of an abortion?
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    edited April 2005
    what the hell does this have to do with sexual predators at all?
  • SpoogeSpooge Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Members Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Posts: 1,531 Fully active user
    Well, let's back up. The purpose of this bill was to criminalize a minor leaving a State where laws prevent abortions without parental notification to a State that has no similar law. The theory being that because it's now interstate, it becomes a Federal issue.

    Now, one scenario might be that someone has impregnated a minor and attempts to get her an abortion without notifying her parents/guardians. This bill would make transporting her across State borders a criminal offense. The description of a predator in the notice is narrow (the term is relative considering it could be a long time boyfriend) but not inaccurate. It is, however, an exploitable loophole.
  • SkySky Members Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Posts: 3,666
    I'm still confused, what do sexual predators and abortions have in common?
    user posted image
    QUOTE (Snidely)
    I guess their slogan should be "with a Trojan, sex will last as long as the Trojan War, with only a fraction of the eroticism".
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    Consider a tax cut.
    One scenario might be that a sexual predator receives money through the tax cut. Therefore, if I am following you correctly, its accurate to characterize the bill as giving money to sexual predators?

    Please, give me a break. This bill could affect the parents of someone trying to get an abortion, or their significant other, or some unwitting greyhound driver. Yet somehow, because one of these might be a sexual predator, we can characterize them all as sexual predators in the summary of the amendment? That's patently ridiculous.
  • SpoogeSpooge Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Members Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Posts: 1,531 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Sky @ Apr 29 2005, 01:24 PM)
    I'm still confused, what do sexual predators and abortions have in common?

    er, rape?
  • SkySky Members Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Posts: 3,666
    QUOTE (Spooge @ Apr 29 2005, 01:25 PM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ Apr 29 2005, 01:24 PM)
    I'm still confused, what do sexual predators and abortions have in common?

    er, rape?

    What rapist would stick around to get the girl an abortion? Except maybe a date-rape, but then again insisting on an abortion would almost be like admitting to the crime.
    user posted image
    QUOTE (Snidely)
    I guess their slogan should be "with a Trojan, sex will last as long as the Trojan War, with only a fraction of the eroticism".
  • CxwfCxwf Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Posts: 1,618
    The reason these amendments were characterized as referring to sexual predators is because the initial bill was characterized as referring only to sexual predators. If a person is not committing acts that would lead the bill to label that person as a sexual predator, then the amendments aren't going to affect them because the bill core won't affect them either. Therefore its fairly safe to assume that all people affected by the ammendments would be sexual predators.

    Or at least, thats the logic being used by the people writing the summaries. I can't say for sure whether that logic is correct without reading the text of the original bill, which is not included in that link.
    Also Known As :: Kerostasis
  • theclamtheclam Members Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Posts: 1,795
    QUOTE (Cxwf @ Apr 29 2005, 11:23 PM)
    The reason these amendments were characterized as referring to sexual predators is because the initial bill was characterized as referring only to sexual predators. If a person is not committing acts that would lead the bill to label that person as a sexual predator, then the amendments aren't going to affect them because the bill core won't affect them either. Therefore its fairly safe to assume that all people affected by the ammendments would be sexual predators.

    Or at least, thats the logic being used by the people writing the summaries. I can't say for sure whether that logic is correct without reading the text of the original bill, which is not included in that link.

    I don't see anything in the original bill referring to sexual predators and I don't see any comments about the bill referring to sexual predators:
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d1...8:@@@L&summ2=m&

    QUOTE (Spooge)
    As far as I'm concerned, it's unenforceable in it's current form.

    Unenforceable? If the parents get wind of the abortion, then they can easily call up the cops and have anyone who helped the girl arrested. I don't see how it's unenforceable at all.
    QUOTE
    However, these amendments create the inevitable "loopholes" present in any federal law.
    In this case, at least, the loopholes are warranted. Why arrest a Greyhound bus driver for transporting a woman across state lines? Should Greyhound be required to ask every woman they carry aboard if they're going to have an abortion, just to be safe?
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  • BulletHeadBulletHead Members Join Date: 2004-07-22 Member: 30049Posts: 2,530
    ...

    Democracy doesn't work when the two parties hate each other more than they wish to get stuff done...
    QUOTE (DragonMech @ Jul 9 2005, 09:19 PM)
    QUOTE (Sonic @ Jul 9 2005, 06:49 PM)
    I wish my butcheeks could propel me up flights of stairs are terrifying speeds.

    I sense a custom title right there... :D
  • CxwfCxwf Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Posts: 1,618
    QUOTE (BulletHead @ Apr 30 2005, 02:42 AM)
    ...

    Democracy doesn't work when the two parties hate each other more than they wish to get stuff done...

    Quoted for Truth. biggrin-fix.gif

    That aside, I still have a substantial preference for one party over the other.
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  • othellothell Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4183Posts: 852
    QUOTE (theclam @ Apr 30 2005, 01:15 AM)
    In this case, at least, the loopholes are warranted. Why arrest a Greyhound bus driver for transporting a woman across state lines? Should Greyhound be required to ask every woman they carry aboard if they're going to have an abortion, just to be safe?

    I'm still trying to figure out why this whole Greyhound bus driver thing is an issue when there are key descriptions that have the individual qualify... Like "knowing" and "helping" while knowing. A bus driver would have no clue that the individual is going for an abortion ( its not something commonly asked when boarding a bus ).
  • maniacrippermaniacripper Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-01-13 Member: 25288Posts: 64
    QUOTE (BulletHead @ Apr 30 2005, 02:42 AM)
    ...

    Democracy doesn't work when the two parties hate each other more than they wish to get stuff done...

    on the contrary, the last time the governemnt actually balanced a budget was due to a republican dominated congress and a democratic administration which forced eachother to check their ways.


    democracy works because there is conflict in government, not the opposite.

    now if you want to get into how corporate funding and the consolidation of money is leading to the destruction of the United States then I'm all for it smile-fix.gif


    Look around and be wise, as the middle class continues to disappear Socialism will become a more and more tempting option for many americans. the only reason it didnt work prior to world war 2 in the states is that the middle class act as a buffer to total reform as they are neither here nor there, hence basically indifferent to change, but watch as times change....

    you heard it here first, I predict socialism in the US by 2050, that is if the nation still exists.


    /ontopic this is flipping retarded, about as retarded as the bill that would allow weather information to be exclusive to 2 or 3 companies. money and the lack of progessive laws will be the downfall of this country.
  • SkySky Members Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Posts: 3,666
    Eh, the US already has socialist programs. If you mean that we'll turn completely to socialism, fat chance of that. We've already been through periods of time where there was a wealthy upper class and everyone else was basically poor, but socialism didn't take a strong root even then. I don't see socialism as the sole form of government in this country, ever.
    user posted image
    QUOTE (Snidely)
    I guess their slogan should be "with a Trojan, sex will last as long as the Trojan War, with only a fraction of the eroticism".
  • theclamtheclam Members Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Posts: 1,795
    Just to be clear, socialism is more of an economic system, not a political system. If the US was to turn to socialism, it would be replacing capitalism, not democracy.

    Also, there none of the 1st world countries are completely socialist. All of them have capitalist economies and all of them have socialist elements, to one degree or another.

    I seriously doubt that the US will turn to socialism very far, for quite a while. As the demographics shift, socialism will start to look pretty crappy. Once the baby boomers die out, things may start to shift the other way.

    QUOTE (maniacripper)
    on the contrary, the last time the governemnt actually balanced a budget was due to a republican dominated congress and a democratic administration which forced eachother to check their ways.

    I think it was more due to having a Democratic president, rather than the fact that one party didn't own both the legislative and executive branches.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...9-2005Apr1.html
    Democrats spend less money, get more taxes, and thus have lower deficits. Doesn't matter who controls Congress.
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    I'll miss you.
  • othellothell Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4183Posts: 852
    edited May 2005
    Disappearing middle class? Doubtful.

    QUOTE (theclam @ May 1 2005, 02:15 AM)
    Democrats spend less money, get more taxes, and thus have lower deficits.  Doesn't matter who controls Congress.

    Tell that to California... sad-fix.gif
  • SkySky Members Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Posts: 3,666
    QUOTE (theclam @ May 1 2005, 02:15 AM)
    Democrats spend less money, get more taxes, and thus have lower deficits. Doesn't matter who controls Congress.

    Well actually Republicans are supposed to be the ones advocating smaller governments and fiscal responsibility, while Democrats are supposed to spend a lot on social programs. However that's all gone out the window with this administration. The Terry Schiavo case was a perfect example; a Republican government 'normally' wouldn't want to get involved in things like that.
    user posted image
    QUOTE (Snidely)
    I guess their slogan should be "with a Trojan, sex will last as long as the Trojan War, with only a fraction of the eroticism".
  • theclamtheclam Members Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Posts: 1,795
    QUOTE (Sky @ May 1 2005, 08:31 PM)
    QUOTE (theclam @ May 1 2005, 02:15 AM)
    Democrats spend less money, get more taxes, and thus have lower deficits.  Doesn't matter who controls Congress.

    Well actually Republicans are supposed to be the ones advocating smaller governments and fiscal responsibility, while Democrats are supposed to spend a lot on social programs. However that's all gone out the window with this administration. The Terry Schiavo case was a perfect example; a Republican government 'normally' wouldn't want to get involved in things like that.

    It didn't start with Bush. The statistic was calculated from 1960, so if anything it started with the Eisenhower administration.

    In general, I think that in American politics, the minority party leans more libertarian. Once that minority party actually gets into power, however, they can't resist intruding upon the personal lives of Americans. So, Republicans wouldn't have done anything with the Schiavo case back when the Democrats controlled Congress and/or the Presidency, but now that they have all three branches, they would (and did) do something with Schiavo.
    user posted image - Avenger X
    I'll miss you.
  • SkySky Members Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Posts: 3,666
    QUOTE (theclam @ May 1 2005, 09:06 PM)
    QUOTE (Sky @ May 1 2005, 08:31 PM)
    QUOTE (theclam @ May 1 2005, 02:15 AM)
    Democrats spend less money, get more taxes, and thus have lower deficits.  Doesn't matter who controls Congress.

    Well actually Republicans are supposed to be the ones advocating smaller governments and fiscal responsibility, while Democrats are supposed to spend a lot on social programs. However that's all gone out the window with this administration. The Terry Schiavo case was a perfect example; a Republican government 'normally' wouldn't want to get involved in things like that.

    It didn't start with Bush. The statistic was calculated from 1960, so if anything it started with the Eisenhower administration.

    In general, I think that in American politics, the minority party leans more libertarian. Once that minority party actually gets into power, however, they can't resist intruding upon the personal lives of Americans. So, Republicans wouldn't have done anything with the Schiavo case back when the Democrats controlled Congress and/or the Presidency, but now that they have all three branches, they would (and did) do something with Schiavo.

    An interesting thought; political ideology is defined by a party's relative power rather than concrete guidelines. I haven't had enough first-hand experience with politics to determine how accurate this is, but it definitely seems possible.
    user posted image
    QUOTE (Snidely)
    I guess their slogan should be "with a Trojan, sex will last as long as the Trojan War, with only a fraction of the eroticism".
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