Why Does Eon Get No Love?

AposApos Join Date: 2003-06-14 Member: 17369Members, Constellation Posts: 689
altair too: they aren't bad maps!
I don't understand the hate for altair and eon. Both maps are just fine, and better: they're new. I know people have opinions about one or the other being alien biased. But the reality is that I've seen both sides win on these maps: they require different strategies, to be sure, but the idea that they are stacked one team or another, while it might have some small validity, is, I think mostly just people who can't adapt to change. Yes, tanith is a great map. And the strats for tanith are important. But eon and altair are their own maps. Adapt. I hate seeing altair and eon voted down just because people have the perception that they are alien biased or whatever. 3.0F gives the edge to aliens, period. And that's sort of cool, because it makes the challenge be on the marines. But it isn't the fault of eon or altair simply because htey are new and they came out when aliens were on top. Stop blaming them. They are well designed maps, and they will get even better in time. Stop voting them down! I want new fun!
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Comments

  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members Posts: 1,795
    I haven't played eon much, but I don't think it has the same kind of character that, say, origin has.

    As for altair, I don't think it's a bad map, but it doesn't have a discrete, unique set of rooms that, say, tanith has. If you look at a tanith screenshot, you instantly know exactly where you are and exactly what the name of the room is, even if you're in a vent. Altair doesn't have that.

    As for balance, I haven't noticed either one of them being heavily biased towards one side or the other, but I'm just a pubber.
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  • AposApos Join Date: 2003-06-14 Member: 17369Members, Constellation Posts: 689
    But I think the "distinctiveness" factor that you cite here is really just an aspect of familiarity and newness. Sure, nothing can replace tanith as the first virginal experience of NS. But that's just because it was the first, not because it's the only good and memorable thing. I think altair and eon have some equally memorable areas. It's just that nothing can compare to your first time.
  • KungFuDiscoMonkeyKungFuDiscoMonkey Creator of ns_altair 日本福岡県 Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14555Members, NS1 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 2,589 Advanced user
    edited April 2005
    I'll be the first one to admit that Altair does have it's problems and the first version released as part of NS was not up to par. The new version released with 3.0f should be a lot better and I'm currently working on a even newer version to fix some of the remaining complaints. Some of it though is just because their newer maps and even though this is a game called Natural-Selection, people still seem to have trouble adapting to new things.

    <Shockwave^> For some reason, the instant you ask players to behave differently to be successful, they associate that with bad mapping.
    毎日勉強したら上手になるよ
  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members Posts: 1,795
    QUOTE (Apos @ Apr 2 2005, 11:03 PM)
    But I think the "distinctiveness" factor that you cite here is really just an aspect of familiarity and newness. Sure, nothing can replace tanith as the first virginal experience of NS. But that's just because it was the first, not because it's the only good and memorable thing. I think altair and eon have some equally memorable areas. It's just that nothing can compare to your first time.

    My first experiences of NS were on caged and bast, I think in 1.04. I didn't play very much until about 3b4, so tanith is hardly the first map I've played, or even a map that I've played the most.
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  • Omega_DeathOmega_Death Sith apprentice to a box of Cereal Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19042Members Posts: 558
    Simple, they're new.
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  • AlkillerAlkiller Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28847Members Posts: 1,124
  • TengueTengue Join Date: 2005-04-02 Member: 47244Members Posts: 5
    Too many places for aliens ambushes, on eon.
    Too easy to stop human expanding, in the begining.
    Especially, if first chamber is a sens.
    Alien's map.
    * Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    SFE[ru]*Teng
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    Omegadeath and Alkiller have it in one really. They're new, people can not be bothered to learn them nor be skilled on them.
    blah blah blah
  • Swift_IdiotSwift_Idiot Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11883Members Posts: 862
    They are the only maps I want to play anymore. They're new.

    Everything else is crusty and stale.

    Big :P's
    RUE4<3? ;D
  • FaskaliaFaskalia Wechsellichtzeichenanlage Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31651Members, Constellation Posts: 2,405
    QUOTE (Swift Idiot @ Apr 3 2005, 10:29 AM)
    They are the only maps I want to play anymore. They're new.

    Everything else is crusty and stale.

    Big tounge.gif's

    Lies, Origin stll rocks biggrin-fix.gif

    And i always vote altair/eon/bast when they turn up in the map vote smile-fix.gif
    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 30 2008, 03:51 PM) »
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    You can mince it anyway you like, but if a government can take it a way then it doesn't really matter if it is a right or a privilege, does it?
  • DoL_NeODoL_NeO Join Date: 2003-11-12 Member: 22717Members, NS1 Playtester Posts: 302
    QUOTE (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Apr 2 2005, 11:08 PM)
    I'll be the first one to admit that Altair does have it's problems and the first version released as part of NS was not up to par. The new version released with 3.0f should be a lot better and I'm currently working on a even newer version to fix some of the remaining complaints. Some of it though is just because their newer maps and even though this is a game called Natural-Selection, people still seem to have trouble adapting to new things.

    <Shockwave^> For some reason, the instant you ask players to behave differently to be successful, they associate that with bad mapping.

    I think its because the authors are KFDM and Olmy.

    tounge.gif

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  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members Posts: 2,254
    i dont like eon because its so cramped and hard for everything except skulks.

    i havent really played the new altair though :o

    ps: orbital for official map now!
    <DOOManiac> my main thing about clans is they never seem to actually have fun when playing
    <DOOManiac> even if they're winning they are so caught up in the seriousness of the situation they don't have fun. its like work. where's the fun in that?


    last.fm
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation Posts: 6,132
    Orbital? Link to information, pictures, download?
    blah blah blah
  • comradecomrade Join Date: 2003-11-30 Member: 23774Members Posts: 590
    orbital is a map made for CAL like mill, fire and strike for CS

    you can find it in the files section for NS at the CAL site
    LOL

    i killed knife
  • esunaesuna Rock Bottom Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15175Members, Constellation Posts: 5,578 Fully active user
    QUOTE (comrade @ Apr 3 2005, 10:43 AM)
    orbital is a map made for CAL like mill, fire and strike for CS

    you can find it in the files section for NS at the CAL site

    It's a map also created primarily to play well not to look good, it makes my little mapper inside cringe.
  • TOmekkiTOmekki Join Date: 2003-11-25 Member: 23524Members Posts: 2,254
    QUOTE (esuna @ Apr 3 2005, 06:00 AM)
    QUOTE (comrade @ Apr 3 2005, 10:43 AM)
    orbital is a map made for CAL like mill, fire and strike for CS

    you can find it in the files section for NS at the CAL site

    It's a map also created primarily to play well not to look good, it makes my little mapper inside cringe.

    i suppose tanith does that to you as well then?

    besides, its the guys first map.. give him a break.
    <DOOManiac> my main thing about clans is they never seem to actually have fun when playing
    <DOOManiac> even if they're winning they are so caught up in the seriousness of the situation they don't have fun. its like work. where's the fun in that?


    last.fm
  • phunktionphunktion Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22883Members, NS1 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 125
    edited April 2005
    hey i'm working on making it look better. and if it goes official it will get a huge visual upgrade( that's currently in progress)

    i mean its not the prettiest map ever but it not seige007.

    i think most mappers have a thing or two to learn about playtesting and responding to user feedback. the fact that i was able to create a map that has been embraced by the competetive community , even tho it was my goal its still suprising. when was the last time that happened?



    oh and back on topic. eon is nice but its feels hard too learn because areas of the maps aren't visually distinct from each other. the same shiny metal everywhere and similar lighting throughout. i'm always looking at the map to see where i am and where i'm going
  • GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer Posts: 426 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Tengue @ Apr 3 2005, 01:35 AM)
    Too many places for aliens ambushes, on eon.
    Too easy to stop human expanding, in the begining.
    Especially, if first chamber is a sens.
    Alien's map.

    Dude, where have you been? Its 3.0F, all maps are easy to stop marine expansion with sensory.
  • ScrapScrap Join Date: 2005-01-06 Member: 32953Members Posts: 238
    Why does Eon get no love?
    well if you belvie in love at first sight yeh, some people should love Eon allready.Others love takes a little longer tounge.gif .

    But i like new things so if a vote comes up i always vote for Eon just to be gorge and look at the architecture.
    roses are red,
    violets are blue,
    I don't know how to rime,
    but people tell that I have lots of other good qualities
  • OlmyOlmy Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond Posts: 1,452 Advanced user
  • SkySky Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Members Posts: 3,669
    edited April 2005
    Eon gets no love because all of the nodes are either on the alien side of the map, or close enough that it doesn't take much effort to bring them down as soon as the marines put them up. Capturing a hive is necessary just so you can hold some rts. marine.gif

    Of course, in that eon feedback thread there was a great map for node redistribution that would probably make the map a lot better for marines, so it's not like the map is beyond help. Once that change happens, eon will be in the same boat as altair - a lack of distinctiveness. Both maps have good marine starts and 2 hives that are memorable enough, but after that there are very few rooms that are actually distinguishable from each other. Coincidentally, it is the bottom-most hive on both maps that needs a little touching up.
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  • niaccurshiniaccurshi Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11629Members, Constellation Posts: 1,075
    what sky said, people (ie me) like maps like origin, tanith, caged and nothing because they're distinctive, they have a very seperate feel to other maps.

    Altair to me isn't too bad, but just is a bit too near the "average" bracket for me to ever rave about playing it. Eon is just a monotony of coridoors to me sad-fix.gif

    However it is sad to see that people will flagrantly abuse these two maps when they ignore flaws with maps like Ayumi (AE35 hive specifically) and the rather boring nature that maps could have when double res points are around...
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  • OlmyOlmy Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond Posts: 1,452 Advanced user
    What distinctiveness are you looking for?
  • KungFuDiscoMonkeyKungFuDiscoMonkey Creator of ns_altair 日本福岡県 Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14555Members, NS1 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos Posts: 2,589 Advanced user
    In my expierence, people seem to use the argument that maps lack 'distinctiveness' as a blanket term to cover up the fact that they are too lazy to learn new maps and too lazy to adapt to new stratigies. My favorite irony about this game.
    毎日勉強したら上手になるよ
  • SkySky Join Date: 2004-04-23 Member: 28131Members Posts: 3,669
    edited April 2005
    QUOTE (Olmy @ Apr 3 2005, 01:14 PM)
    What distinctiveness are you looking for?

    Maps like tanith and hera have rooms that both flow into each other, and only rarely require corridors of any kind of length. Most importantly, the battles take place in the rooms, not in the corridors connecting the rooms. Eon and altair, on the other hand, have far more corridors connecting far smaller rooms. Fewer and smaller rooms means that 1) the entire map feels claustrophobic, and 2) there are fewer memorable places, areas that show off the map's theme, things like that.

    Talking specifically about eon (because monkey has already heard my suggestions for altair), first of all, you need to open the middle of the map out. It's all small corridors leading up to the hive. There needs to be some area where marines can gain a foothold before assaulting a hive (think holoroom in hera, though it doesn't have to be that big). I would suggest playing with the elevation of the map to open new areas up, because it's rather crowded all on one level.

    Second of all, don't touch core or <insert name of top hive>. They're beautiful, well done, move on.

    Also, and I said it before, move the nodes around. It's a miracle if the marines hold even 3 nodes without electrification in this map; more than that is impossible without capturing a hive (most likely core).
    user posted image
    QUOTE (Snidely)
    I guess their slogan should be "with a Trojan, sex will last as long as the Trojan War, with only a fraction of the eroticism".
  • daidalosdaidalos Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28854Members, Constellation Posts: 310 Fully active user
    Well, I like altair and eon. I really don´t know why people don´t like it.
    Let´s take eclipse or evil: Although I only play since 2.0 I can´t see that maps anymore. I played them so much, that they are getting very boring, always the same boring tactics.
    Now there are a lot of new maps, like agora, altair or eon (and nancy, because I only play since 2.0).

    New maps means new things and new tactics to try out.
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  • phunktionphunktion Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22883Members, NS1 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 125
    no distinctiveness IMO is once youve been in a room/corridor once you remember it the next time. the map isnt filled with alot of areas that feel very similar.
    for expample origin , it very easy to learn and is very memorable.of course theres a tradeoff with trying to create a visual style/theme. but i think there is a middle ground that was acommplished with eclipse and veil.

    and your right some ppl arent inclined or are irritated by learning new maps but there are design choices that can be made to make it less difficlut

    also i think corridors conecting to more corridors is bad. makes it feel like you in a maze.
  • ssjyodassjyoda Join Date: 2002-03-05 Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 877 Fully active user
    edited April 2005
    altair always feels like a maze to me. eon, just has that new map feeling.
    distinctiveness is like.. hmm, i'll be simple. hives tend to be lit differently, well, in the halls and rooms around that hive, u should have a feeling that your gettin close to the hive. thats what ppl talk about when they say the room flow to eachother. like, some lights have a different shade. majority of it is in the lighting, altair needs a major workover in the lighting. sry kfdm if u say u already did that, u made clsoe to no progress.. eon is just sufferin from that new map feel. learnin the way around, but the architecture of every room is different, so u can after a while get a feel for things.

    and i just thought of this, maybe the reason most ppl dont like altair, is cause it gives off a very gloomy, cold, lonely feeling. that may apeal to like. 20% of the community, it will turn most away. if this was your goal, to make it gloomy and such, well, u did it, but it doesn't make a very attractive and likable map.
  • OlmyOlmy Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16142Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Developer, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond Posts: 1,452 Advanced user
    In altair's defence, kfdm has made real progresss in improving the lighting of the ms and hives, and its just a matter of time before most of the map has these same improvements. As for eon, i'm looking at ways to make infestation play a bigger part in the hives. Core already has some minor changes with some infestation creeping out into the corridors.
  • AlbinoAlbino Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19841Members, NS1 Playtester Posts: 193
    If you're walking around a map and you come to a dead end the map is cut 8<
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