TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited April 2005
Also please note that as of this time, NONE of the people on my list of confirmed or suspected have contacted me via PM, IRC, or email to attempt to change my mind, or shake my doubt in the one I believe to be the Seer, though two of the individuals are apparently active.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
I'd also have to say, Swiftspear, (again at risk of sounding shady myself) that your response seemed to be a pretty weakly-veiled attempt to discredit my explanation of any possible misunderstandings in my posts. Given the no-edit rule, I was re-reading and adding more information that I thought at the time of the prior post might implicate someone in the circle... such as the day-order of Seering.
Man, this game never ceases to amaze me. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Apr 14 2005, 02:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Apr 14 2005, 02:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd also have to say, Swiftspear, (again at risk of sounding shady myself) that your response seemed to be a pretty weakly-veiled attempt to discredit my explanation of any possible misunderstandings in my posts. Given the no-edit rule, I was re-reading and adding more information that I thought at the time of the prior post might implicate someone in the circle... such as the day-order of Seering. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Whatever. I don't really have anything on your new story, I can't very well verify or disprove anything you said as it all happend compleatly without any of my awareness to this point.
I have no reason to belive you were contacted by anyone, and I really don't think any other human should. If the "psychic" is right, like you say there is 4 wolfs left, meaning there is around about a 50% chance that at least one or the other, seer or psychic is dead. I AM a human, and if someone isn't lying about the wolf count I really don't have much hope for the rest of this game.
As far as I'm concerned you are almost definately a wolf. I don't particularly have any issues with talking to you, but if you want to be PMed fine, I will do so. If you are not a wolf and you have a way out lets here it.
Swiftspear, don't think the following is defending you whatsoever. I don't trust Talesin, but it'd make his powerplay pretty strong if he was incriminating a wolf. Imagine if they sacrificed one of their own, just to get the psychic on their side and through him, the humans he's networked with. I'm sure they'd exchange 1 wolf for 2 or 3 guaranteed human votes any day of the week. The only thing that seperates you and him in my books is that he's the one who's come and shut down anyone who even lifted a finger against him by threatening 'scanning'. "You don't believe us? You must be a commie, I'm going to use my commie radar tonight and make sure!" Then the psychic and his buddies would pitch in their votes to kill the commies! And of course the psychic and his buddies would follow him every step of the way because the seer was right about that one time when he killed the wolf. This time he scanned a guy and found he was human, but the guy whose accusing him over there that he didn't scan. Oh yeah, he must be a wolf.
And that's not even the half of it, since he picked the perfect time to start doing this. The human population is small, the wolves can afford to take some hits, so long as they have the humans' votes.
----------- In the beginning I was leaning against Swiftspear. Early game though, I sided with Nem0 a bit. I don't know if I can trust him really, but he was a player with a fair bit of logic and good sense. In any case this is my first TWG. So networking with other humans was pretty much something I was new to. I had held suspicions against Swiftspear, Bad Karma and you Talesin. However I will say this. This seems like one huge powerplay to me. If you are in contact with the real seer, then good on you and good luck to you. However ever since this began, I began to doubt more and more.
I want to believe, but in a game like this, how can I? If I don't support you, all you have to do is show up the next day, point your finger at me and say "Cold-NiTe has been seered and is a wolf." It's the same with MuffinMan and Mantrid. You just throw the hat down and tell us we are wolves if we don't go along with the plan. You don't even have to worry about doing that to the people who support you too. Don't you see? This is too blatant. Why would the seer throw down the gauntlet like this, instead of privately seer the rest of us and contact us? I still don't trust Swiftspear, but I do trust Nem0. If the seer was worried about dying, couldn't he just send out a Will pm?
And that's not even the beginning of it either. Should you get wolfed tonight, it could be by the person claiming to be the seer! Then the two of them would definetly be incriminated. Hell I'd vote against them after something like that had I not thought more about it. So I guess my point is that I refuse to just sit here and watch a one sided argument. If tomorrow, someone gets supposedly scanned who raised an argument against you today just because they did so, and I hear you cry wolf, be it me or muffinman or anyone else, I don't think I could sit and believe that. That's almost like scare tactics or McCarthyism.
I'm going to watch this, and I am going to watch what happens to all the people who even begin to doubt you.
My apologies Senator, scare tactics don't work on me. My vote goes to <b>Talesin</b>. I bet you <i>anything</i> I'm going to be called a wolf tomorrow because of this. Go ahead, do as you please. I'm angry that everyone else is cowed by this.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold NiTe+Apr 14 2005, 03:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold NiTe @ Apr 14 2005, 03:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I want to believe, but in a game like this, how can I? If I don't support you, all you have to do is show up the next day, point your finger at me and say "Cold-NiTe has been seered and is a wolf." It's the same with MuffinMan and Mantrid. You just throw the hat down and tell us we are wolves if we don't go along with the plan. You don't even have to worry about doing that to the people who support you too. Don't you see? This is too blatant. Why would the seer throw down the gauntlet like this, instead of privately seer the rest of us and contact us? I still don't trust Swiftspear, but I do trust Nem0. If the seer was worried about dying, couldn't he just send out a Will pm? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The trouble is that if the seer scanned two wolves, and one of the two humans seered died, then he wouldn't know who to trust. The wolves want the seer above all else.
Why would Talesin powerplay if all wolves are still alive? Why be so blatent?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that's not even the beginning of it either. Should you get wolfed tonight, it could be by the person claiming to be the seer! Then the two of them would definetly be incriminated. Hell I'd vote against them after something like that had I not thought more about it. So I guess my point is that I refuse to just sit here and watch a one sided argument. If tomorrow, someone gets supposedly scanned who raised an argument against you today just because they did so, and I hear you cry wolf, be it me or muffinman or anyone else, I don't think I could sit and believe that. That's almost like scare tactics or McCarthyism.
I'm going to watch this, and I am going to watch what happens to all the people who even begin to doubt you.
My apologies Senator, scare tactics don't work on me. My vote goes to <b>Talesin</b>. I bet you <i>anything</i> I'm going to be called a wolf tomorrow because of this. Go ahead, do as you please. I'm angry that everyone else is cowed by this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reckon all four of the wolves have already posted.
Talesin's argumentation right now is that it wouldn't hurt the human team at all to kill me today - if the psychic confirms me a wolf, you can continue with Swift, if not, you can still kill Tal. This is just plain wrong. Assuming we still have four wolves in the game, and unless BadKarma was one, I'm going to trust that statement since it mirrors things I heard myself (believe it or not, but the people you are 'covering' here <i>survived</i> the contact with an alleged wolf), and two humans die this round, we're down to five human and four wolf players next round. In other words, assuming that they manage to convince as little as <i>one</i> player tomorrow, and I think this discussion shows that either possible group of wolves is quite apt at this, they'll be able to vote people off after their liking.
Tal insists on killing myself first. Why? Assuming that both Swift and I are wolves, wouldn't it be a damn spot more sensible to attack the more experienced player first to rob the wolves of their obvious brain of operations, not to mention that there were significantly bigger suspicions against that player? Why take a harder challenge of convincing people to lynch a newbie? What is it that makes me so dangerous to you, Tal?
The whole discussion is getting a tad bit too elaborate for my tastes. Amass a heap of data, and you'll be able to sow suspicion with the most ridiculous of 'proves':<ul><li>Swiftspear and Mantrid view the same thread at the same time. This <i>obviously</i> puts them into the same group of people.</li><li>I "never" doubted that Tal was contacted by a seer. So that's why I used all those quotes and expressions such as "In so far, this would be a nice smokescreen ploy, whether initiated by yourself or the <i>person who contacted you</i>."</li><li>None of the suspects tried to PM Tal to dissolve his convictions. My, what a surprise. I did not contact the from my vantage point most likely wolf player in the game with prove against his allegations. What would that prove consist of? That I was out drinking while they wolfed Im Lost? The only prove I could offer would be to reference other players. Do you earnestly think I'd spill my informative guts in front of someone who is likely to use them to pick his next victims out?</li></ul>The record shows that I have been sceptical all throughout this discussion, implying several times that I considered it as likely that a fake seer contacted Talesin as himself being a wolf. The aggressiviness of the last two pages reduced that hope. I don't buy into this 'it's them or us' scheme. Swiftspear and I are no 'them'. We are two players who can not trust each other any more than any other player. The 'us' Tal proposes, on the other hand, consists of himself and a number of players we know necessarily absolutely nothing about. Great odds. There is still a chance that you are simply the victim of a very convincing false seer. In that case, my apologies, but I vote against <b>Talesin</b>.
As far as I'm concerned I don't know really much of anything in this game still except possibly the name of the person who claims to be in contact with the psychic, which apparently the wolfs already know anyways. As far as I'm concerned I really couldn't help them much. If I get the chance though you'd better belive I'll hurt them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Apr 14 2005, 05:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Apr 14 2005, 05:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let's cut it down to the basics:
Talesin's argumentation right now is that it wouldn't hurt the human team at all to kill me today - if the psychic confirms me a wolf, you can continue with Swift, if not, you can still kill Tal. This is just plain wrong. Assuming we still have four wolves in the game, <i>[snip]</i> and two humans die this round, we're down to five human and four wolf players next round. In other words, assuming that they manage to convince as little as <i>one</i> player tomorrow, and I think this discussion shows that either possible group of wolves is quite apt at this, they'll be able to vote people off after their liking. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It hurts to kill you less than it would to kill Talesin.
What can you offer the humans? At best, another round. Do you have information on the wolves? Are you in touch with the psychic, seer or guardian?
What can Talesin offer me, at best? A chance to win.
At worst, either of you's a wolf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tal insists on killing myself first. Why? Assuming that both Swift and I are wolves, wouldn't it be a damn spot more sensible to attack the more experienced player first to rob the wolves of their obvious brain of operations, not to mention that there were significantly bigger suspicions against that player? Why take a harder challenge of convincing people to lynch a newbie? What is it that makes me so dangerous to you, Tal?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're a wolf, that's probably what he finds threatening. I admit that I find it odd to target you first, though, but not so odd that it convinces me to vote against Talesin at this point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't buy into this 'it's them or us' scheme. Swiftspear and I are no 'them'. We are two players who can not trust each other any more than any other player. The 'us' Tal proposes, on the other hand, consists of himself and a number of players we know necessarily absolutely nothing about. Great odds. There is still a chance that you are simply the victim of a very convincing false seer. In that case, my apologies, but I vote against <b>Talesin</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rhetoric. There is nothing to show that you aren't in private contact. We know that Tal is willing to take a huge risk that a wolf would be dumb to do, since they're winning so far. We don't necessarily know anything about you, either; and what I know about Swift sure makes me suspicious.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Apr 14 2005, 06:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Apr 14 2005, 06:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't buy into this 'it's them or us' scheme. Swiftspear and I are no 'them'. We are two players who can not trust each other any more than any other player. The 'us' Tal proposes, on the other hand, consists of himself and a number of players we know necessarily absolutely nothing about. Great odds. There is still a chance that you are simply the victim of a very convincing false seer. In that case, my apologies, but I vote against <b>Talesin</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rhetoric. There is nothing to show that you aren't in private contact. We know that Tal is willing to take a huge risk that a wolf would be dumb to do, since they're winning so far. We don't necessarily know anything about you, either; and what I know about Swift sure makes me suspicious. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> so, as far as I know you are in privite contact with talesin orchistrating this whole thing. Or even better, in privite contact with whoever is puppeting talesin if he acctually IS a human.
from the way you are talking I can only assume you know something something I don't, and I definately have to assume that your motivations for how you intend to use that information is far different from what mine are.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Apr 14 2005, 06:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Apr 14 2005, 06:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so, as far as I know you are in privite contact with talesin orchistrating this whole thing. Or even better, in privite contact with whoever is puppeting talesin if he acctually IS a human. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, that's definately possible. Although I would have tried to get you voted off first, because I'm more sure that you're a wolf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->from the way you are talking I can only assume you know something something I don't, and I definately have to assume that your motivations for how you intend to use that information is far different from what mine are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I'm still waiting to hear how you are instrumental to a human victory, and how you know for a fact that Talesin is a wolf.
And if you are a wolf then yes, you would use the information differently. (:
Snidely's logic makes sense to me. Think of the worst-case scenario: if we believe Talesin but he's lying, we lose a vanilla human and then kill a wolf. However, if we believe Swift and Nem0 and they're lying, we'll lose the seer's contact, or maybe the seer himself, and then <i>maybe</i> kill a wolf.
I'm sorry for this, because I trusted you a lot for a long time, but when the water is this muddied I have to go with the less risky vote, the one that will hurt the humans the least should it turn out to be the wrong decision. <b>Nemesis Zero</b> gets my vote, and I can only hope the psychic comes out publicly tomorrow to confirm or condemn Talesin.
Again, no hard feelings if you vote against me. This is a shady situation, I'll be the last to blame anyone for doing cost-benefit calculations, though the results seem to vary. The last thing we need is undue paranoia right now, so please stop condemning people at the sidelines.
Snidely, you have put up a good argument, but to me this whole thing is just too damned convenient.
Talesin comes out at the pivotal point in the game with information that not one, but two of us are confirmed wolves. If it was only one wolf, then fair enough, we still have a chance to win. If we vote off two humans, however, we are guaranteed to lose. Sure, one of them may be a wolf, but then Talesin may be a wolf instead. (Or the guy who contacted him, but I doubt it. That would be very risky and lead a sneaky tail directly to a wolf. If we voted off Talesin and found out who had contacted him, you could place a decent bet on who would be voted off next).
If he had just found one wolf, or found more humans, or come out earlier in the game, or confirmed different people, then I might have believed him. As it stands, it <i>feels</i> more like a powerplay than anything else.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
As I said. I am perfectly happy to be lynched tomorrow, if I am still in enough doubt. But I *do* ask the chance to prove myself. If nem is lynched, and the Psychic (or contact) comes forward tomorrow, I can only hope it to be enough proof.
Cold, as I said, you will be scanned tonight. I am hoping that you are a human, but the apparent 'set-up' today seems to be attempting to make people expect a 'wolf' return tomorrow. Is this to save your own neck? This is no McCarthyism... no more than the game itself is. The difference being, one player can say *definitely* one way or the other if someone is a wolf. I can only believe that I am speaking for that player.
I would also comment about how Nem, Swift, TMM, *and* Mantrid all seem to be pulling together to get me lynched, when Nem is the only one at risk.
Again, I ask for a chance. Lynch me tomorrow instead of Swift if you still feel that I'm doubtful.
How hard would it be for a wolf to pretend to be a psychic? I would like to believe you, but this whole thing is, like I said before, too damned convenient. I would rather vote you off then get confirmation from cold night than vote nem off and then get confirmation from cold night. That is, <i>if</i> we get confirmation at all.
We are all banding together because this is what this game has come to. I may not be in any danger of being lynched myself, but voting off nem will be the beginning of the end. There are only two parties in any danger, and everyone needs to side with either one or the other. People standing on the sidelines will damage us more than if they chose a side, for better or for worse.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheMuffinMan+Apr 14 2005, 11:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheMuffinMan @ Apr 14 2005, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Snidely, you have put up a good argument, but to me this whole thing is just too damned convenient. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not "convenient" at all.
We agree that no wolves have yet been lynched, right?
Talesin was suspicious, but not in grave danger. He comes out and accuses Nem and Swift, who are tough targets.
Now, all wolves had to do is keep back and let humans garner all the suspicion. Unless threatened, the wolves would win a couple of turns. Why would Talesin make a move that forces the rest of the wolves to show themselves? Why would he risk prolonging the game more than necessary, when time is harmful to wolves?
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Apr 14 2005, 11:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Apr 14 2005, 11:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cold, as I said, you will be scanned tonight. I am hoping that you are a human, but the apparent 'set-up' today seems to be attempting to make people expect a 'wolf' return tomorrow. Is this to save your own neck? This is no McCarthyism... no more than the game itself is. The difference being, one player can say *definitely* one way or the other if someone is a wolf. I can only believe that I am speaking for that player.
I would also comment about how Nem, Swift, TMM, *and* Mantrid all seem to be pulling together to get me lynched, when Nem is the only one at risk.
Again, I ask for a chance. Lynch me tomorrow instead of Swift if you still feel that I'm doubtful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's just the thing Talesin. It's my belief that you are accusing anyone who goes against you as being a wolf. Thus when I go against you, I believe that I will be accused. That just strikes me as the logical thing for you to do, as it would be part of your grandstanding. Note that I didn't and still don't believe that Nem0 is a wolf. His playing style just doesn't seem to fit that, and from the few times we've spoken, he's confirmed my doubts of other players.
As for those four pulling together. Normally I would be inclined to agree with you, but Nem and Swift are obviously voting against you because you incriminated them. It's what anyone in their position would do, because by doing that you confirmed to them that you or your source is a wolf. Mantrid seems to bandwagon a lot, and I've got my own suspicions about that, probably for another day, when people will listen to darned thing I say. TMM has got an argument. I don't completely understand it, but I'm not the brightest star in the universe so that doesn't surprise me.
As for lynching you tomorrow, the damage will be done by then because Nem0 will be dead, when he hasn't provided me ANY reason to doubt him. And why on earth are you so ready to keep Swift alive tomorrow? Does this have any correlation with my accusing you of actually being on the same team as him and trying to play off each other in such a way that if everyone sides with one of you, the other is guaranteed to stay alive for another 2 or 3 turns?
Anyway I have a pm to answer. I'll be back later. But I have work at 5:30 so I'm not going to be here for the final conclusion of all of this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We agree that no wolves have yet been lynched, right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. I think that one wolf has been voted out. I have no proof, but i would like to think that we got at least one vote right <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, all wolves had to do is keep back and let humans garner all the suspicion<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fake seer gambit that the wolves are playing acts as a major smokescreen for any wolves. In normal circumstances, my arguments would have gotten me voted off (just like woned). You would have also been voted off. There has been a major shift in the game. Instead of us acting on hunches, we are supposed to vote off whoever Talesin tells us to.
Alot of this stems from the fact that i have been suspicious of Talesin from the start, while i trust Nem and Swiftspear. They have given me nothing at all that even hints at them being wolves, while Talesin has.
It is a risky plan, i agree, but if we vote off Nem or Swift then we will lose the game. If, as you say, there are four wolves left, then we really cannot afford to lose two human players, let alone four.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless threatened, the wolves would win a couple of turns. Why would Talesin make a move that forces the rest of the wolves to show themselves? Why would he risk prolonging the game more than necessary, when time is harmful to wolves?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is he forcing the wolves to show themselves? He is not prolonging the game, he is giving us a reason to vote off two players. If they are human, and we go along with Talesin, then we lose 4 humans and the wolves take over. Instead of us acting on hunches, he has given us a direction to point our votes. A direction that will lose us the game.
Cold : My argument is based around the hope that the real seer is still alive, and that he will contact someone who can then come out into the open and confirm Talesins story. Sure, this can happen if Nem is dead instead of Talesin, but i definitely trust Talesin less.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
No, the argument was that Swift was the more experienced player. Thereby, if I am lying, he is a more valuable asset to the remaining humans. He would be much more of a loss to the humans, than Nem would. It's true that Swift had more doubt against him by many players, but if I *am* wrong, and am being played by a wolf-'seer', at least the damage caused by the lynching will be slightly less.
Cold, I am not simply accusing people out of reaction. I have PMs predating their accusatory posts from the two others in the circle, stating their suspicions. I already acknowledged that it would look like a vengeful response. There's very little I can say today that will change your mind... after all, you trust Nem.
Well I guess that just means we are deadlocked. Unless Hellfire decides to stop being an afk. I might try to bug him and see if he's still alive somewhere and didn't die by a moose dropping on his head in Real Life as was my original suspicion. I am going to take my leave of this thread for now, because I don't want to become disillusioned with TWG's in general and reading all this makes me want to quit. I'll be back later.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheMuffinMan+Apr 14 2005, 01:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheMuffinMan @ Apr 14 2005, 01:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nope. I think that one wolf has been voted out. I have no proof, but i would like to think that we got at least one vote right <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In that case, we have breathing room. Losing Nem or Swift won't be a crippling blow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fake seer gambit that the wolves are playing acts as a major smokescreen for any wolves. In normal circumstances, my arguments would have gotten me voted off (just like woned). You would have also been voted off. There has been a major shift in the game. Instead of us acting on hunches, we are supposed to vote off whoever Talesin tells us to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smokescreens can also be helpful for humans, because it creates a set of people, and at least one of them is bound to be a wolf. In this case, we have two camps; chances are good that the wolves are weighing in on one side.
If Talesin is a wolf, then me (Snidely), Pulse and Sky/Brute Force are wolves.
If Nem is a wolf, then Swift, Mantrid, and you (Muffinman) are probably wolves. Possibly Cold Nite, too, but I don't think a wolf would allow himself to get a phantom vote.
If neither are wolves, then wolves are on both sides. Voting off Swift would have less impact in this case, since he doesn't appear to have contact with the seer.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alot of this stems from the fact that i have been suspicious of Talesin from the start, while i trust Nem and Swiftspear. They have given me nothing at all that even hints at them being wolves, while Talesin has.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you mean bandwagoning, then human roles might act the same way. Apart from that, I don't see any incriminating evidence against Talesin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a risky plan, i agree, but if we vote off Nem or Swift then we will lose the game. If, as you say, there are four wolves left, then we really cannot afford to lose two human players, let alone four.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the wolves are on all sides, then Talesin is probably human, and we can't afford to lose him, either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How is he forcing the wolves to show themselves? He is not prolonging the game, he is giving us a reason to vote off two players. If they are human, and we go along with Talesin, then we lose 4 humans and the wolves take over. Instead of us acting on hunches, he has given us a direction to point our votes. A direction that will lose us the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he is right, and Nem and Swift are wolves, then he is forcing the wolves to vote for their own to keep them in the game. If he is a wolf himself, then the wolves will want to protect him. If they do not, then the humans get more time, since the game ends when the number of wolves equals the number of humans. The last two scenarios would not be desirable for wolves.
I'm still not understanding why this vote is this difficult. If you knew nothing at all about any of the players, and you looked at this decision objectively, it's clear that for the reasons I've already outlined that voting for Nem0 tonight is the safer choice.
What makes the decision easy is the very fact that nobody knows anything. Every scrap of evidence you <i>think</i> you have could actually be a piece of anti-evidence meant to throw you off the right track.
Therefore it is in the humans' best interests to vote for Nem0 tonight, and to pray that the psychic comes out tomorrow. <u>ANY</u> other vote is a crapshoot, and we simply do not have the numbers to gamble any more.
25 minutes left, and Nemesis Zero and Talesin are still head to head. Will a coinflip decide? Hellfire3k, where are you? Two phantom votes in a row dude?
I know that i have been quite insistant in my arguments against Talesin, but i might as well be honest about it.
I did it, in part, to try and see different peoples opinions on the seer without seeming suspicious. Secondly, i thought it would be a bit of a laugh, and thirdly, i actually believed it to a degree. I have decided, however, that you guys are actually right, and voting for Talesin would be a mistake. Therefore, <b>Nemesis Zero</b>
<b><span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>INSTALYNCH! It is now night five, no posting!</span></b>
<b>Talesin</b> sat on his bed, rolling the tiny vial between his fingers. He heard voices, and stuffed it into his breast pocket. In came <b>Nemesis Zero,</b> <b>brute force</b> and <b>Cold NiTe.</b> "We need to talk," said <b>Cold NiTe.</b> "We do? What about? Have you shot yourself in the foot and need me to dress the wound or what?" "Leave this to me," said <b>Nemesis Zero.</b> "<b>Talesin,</b> our best chance lies in flying to the supply depot at Barn--" "So you keep saying." "Yes, but <b>Swiftspear</b> is our expert on propulsion, and he is unwilling to give control over the FTL drive to me. He knows more about the machines than any of us, and as long as he is opposing us, there's nothing we can do." <b>Talesin</b> got up, went over to the coffee dispenser and poured himself a cup. He took a sip and grimaced at the taste. He didn't like the stuff, and this was probably hours, if not even days old. He kept his back turned to the three for a moment, then turned and spoke: "I don't see how I can help you with that. My specialty is the anatomy of humans, not machines." He paused for a moment, regarding the three, and continued: "You look like a warlord with two well-armed men at your side like that. If it's really that important, why don't you force him at gunpoint?" <b>Nemesis Zero</b> gave an exasperated sigh: "You've known <b>Swiftspear</b> for almost as long as I have. He probably has the core control systems so firmly in his grasp that nobody could access them without his permission. The captain probably had master override access, but that's hardly of use to us now. And you <i>know</i> what Swiftspear's like: He would probably see any physical threats against him as an admission of guilt, and choose to die like a martyr rather than cooperate with us. He's always been like that. No, we've given up on that for now. This leaves us with only one chance: Kill the formtakers before they kill us. And you can help us to do that." "I don't see how. If the formtakers were bacteria, I could probably develop a vaccine against them, but against higher lifeforms there's not much I can do." "I think you can. They're not humans. There have to be chemicals or bacteria that have an adverse effect on them, but not on us. If anybody can help us with that, it's you." "I'm sorry, but I've been looking into that as well. There's nothing I can do. They're imitating us too well. Sorry." <b>Nemesis Zero</b> took a step towards <b>Talesin,</b> and said in a quiet voice: "I warn you, <b>Talesin.</b> This is no game. People have died, and people will continue to die. Don't mess around with me." "Or what? Will you have your goons kill me? What good is that going to do? You're paranoid, you're falling apart! If these were normal conditions, I'd send you to a counselor. Get out of my sight!" <b>Nemesis Zero</b> turned around and nodded towards <b>brute force</b> and <b>Cold NiTe.</b> As they left, he turned back to <b>Talesin:</b> "We'll talk later."
Since im lost's disappearance, the little hideout didn't seems as comfy anymore. <b>Hellfire3k</b> sat facing the entrace, the rifle always within reach. Mantrid studied technical diagrams of various parts of the ship. The music player stayed silent. Neither of them said anything, and rarely even moved or changed position. They had a bucket now so they didn't have to leave the hideout, but they hadn't used it so far, and didn't feel much like it.
"No, not over there! For goodness' sake, <i>not</i> over there! You'd kill us! The next crossbeam to your left, if you please," said <b>Swiftspear.</b> <b>Pulse</b> wiped sweat from his brow and paused his work for a moment. "You still haven't explained to me what we're doing here. Why are we planting explosives in the corridors around the machine room?" <b>Swiftspear</b> took the charge from <b>Pulse</b> and started affixing it to the crossbeam: "You know that the <i>Freya</i> consists of three sections: The habitat section, the cargo section and the machine section. The bridge, machine room, FTL drive and sublight drive are all part of the machine section. Technically, this is already a spaceship in its own right. In fact, when this class of ship was designed, the initial design foresaw using the machine section as a sort of lifeboat if it should become necessary. This was abandoned at a later stage in the project, but the structural design hasn't changed fundamentally since then. We can't just detach the machine section, but if we'd blow it loose, there's a good chance that it wouldn't take critical damage. So this will be our emergency plan: If we have to, we seal ourselves up in here, blow the machine section loose and make our getaway. At least <i>we</i> will get out of this alive. Hand me another charge." "Aren't you forgetting about the alien ship out there? Do you think it'll just let us get away?" "No, but it may just have to. I don't know how fast it can move, but it'll have to be one hell of a ship if it can keep up with us. Ol' Einstein hates being cheated, and it takes a lot of energy to do so, but without the habitat section and cargo section, there's substantially less mass we have to get past him. I believe we would be able to surpass 500c."
<b>TheMuffinMan</b> found im lost's corpse among the mining machines. There was congealed blood all over the floor, and the body itself was stiff and cold. Just as im lost had instructed him, he searched his left pocket and found what he was looking for.
<b>Sky</b> swore and swore and swore. <b>Pulse</b> and <b>Snidely</b> were obstinate bastards, and im lost and <b>Hellfire3k</b> were nowhere to be found. In the end, he had decided to go over to the ship alone. It seemed like everyone else was just content to wait for their turn to die, but he was not. Putting on the space suit without help took him the better part of an hour, which is what prompted all the swearing, but eventually he put on the helm and sealed up. He stepped into the airlock and cycled it. Through his helmet, he heard a faint hiss as the athmosphere in the small chamber escaped into the vacuum of space. He moved out of the airlock and felt weightlessness relieve him of the burden of the heavy space suit. Using his thrusters, he maneuvered around the bulky shape of the <i>Freya</i> and made his way towards the alien ship. Floating there in space, it looked peaceful and harmless, but he knew better. After a few minutes of searching, he found the airlock that the original boarders had forced open. He went inside.
<b>"Talesin</b> my friend. You've had some time to think about what I said by now. So, now that you're willing to help us, let's--" "I don't know what you're talking about, <b>Nemesis Zero.</b> I said it last time, and I'll say it again: I have no clue what I can do." <b>Nemesis Zero</b> had a look of intense disappointment on his face. A few paces behind him stood <b>brute force</b> and <b>Cold NiTe,</b> unmoving. "Don't be like that, <b>Talesin.</b> You have nothing to lose by trying to help us, and nothing to gain by refusing to do so." <b>Talesin</b> glared into <b>Nemesis Zero's</b> eyes, unwavering. <b>Nemesis Zero</b> glared back. For an eternal moment they stood like that, locked in a sort of silent duel. Finally, <b>Nemesis Zero</b> withdrew his gaze. "So sorry to hear that. I wish it could have been different." He turned to <b>brute force</b> and motioned towards <b>Talesin.</b> "If you would." By way of answering, <b>brute force</b> withdrew the gun from his shoulder holster and fired in one fluid motion...
<span style='color:red'><b>Nemesis Zero</b></span> slumped to the floor, a hole between his eyes. <b>brute force</b> holstered his gun. "I don't even care what you were. Your reign of oppression ends here. I won't be your lackey."
Players still left in the game: <b>Talesin</b> <b>TheMuffinMan</b> <b>Pulse</b> <b>Sky</b> <b>brute force</b> <b>Swiftspear</b> <b>Hellfire3k</b> <b>Snidely</b> <b>Cold NiTe</b> <b>Mantrid</b>
I will need PMs from the <span style='color:blue'><b>guardian</b></span> (if alive), <span style='color:blue'><b>seer</b></span> (if alive) and any remaining <span style='color:red'><b>formtakers</b></span> before we advance to day five.
Day five will begin on <b>friday, the 15th of April, 21:00 GMT.</b> A bit later than normal, once again.
Comments
Whatever. I don't really have anything on your new story, I can't very well verify or disprove anything you said as it all happend compleatly without any of my awareness to this point.
I have no reason to belive you were contacted by anyone, and I really don't think any other human should. If the "psychic" is right, like you say there is 4 wolfs left, meaning there is around about a 50% chance that at least one or the other, seer or psychic is dead. I AM a human, and if someone isn't lying about the wolf count I really don't have much hope for the rest of this game.
As far as I'm concerned you are almost definately a wolf. I don't particularly have any issues with talking to you, but if you want to be PMed fine, I will do so. If you are not a wolf and you have a way out lets here it.
Swiftspear, don't think the following is defending you whatsoever. I don't trust Talesin, but it'd make his powerplay pretty strong if he was incriminating a wolf. Imagine if they sacrificed one of their own, just to get the psychic on their side and through him, the humans he's networked with. I'm sure they'd exchange 1 wolf for 2 or 3 guaranteed human votes any day of the week. The only thing that seperates you and him in my books is that he's the one who's come and shut down anyone who even lifted a finger against him by threatening 'scanning'. "You don't believe us? You must be a commie, I'm going to use my commie radar tonight and make sure!" Then the psychic and his buddies would pitch in their votes to kill the commies! And of course the psychic and his buddies would follow him every step of the way because the seer was right about that one time when he killed the wolf. This time he scanned a guy and found he was human, but the guy whose accusing him over there that he didn't scan. Oh yeah, he must be a wolf.
And that's not even the half of it, since he picked the perfect time to start doing this. The human population is small, the wolves can afford to take some hits, so long as they have the humans' votes.
-----------
In the beginning I was leaning against Swiftspear. Early game though, I sided with Nem0 a bit. I don't know if I can trust him really, but he was a player with a fair bit of logic and good sense. In any case this is my first TWG. So networking with other humans was pretty much something I was new to. I had held suspicions against Swiftspear, Bad Karma and you Talesin. However I will say this. This seems like one huge powerplay to me. If you are in contact with the real seer, then good on you and good luck to you. However ever since this began, I began to doubt more and more.
I want to believe, but in a game like this, how can I? If I don't support you, all you have to do is show up the next day, point your finger at me and say "Cold-NiTe has been seered and is a wolf." It's the same with MuffinMan and Mantrid. You just throw the hat down and tell us we are wolves if we don't go along with the plan. You don't even have to worry about doing that to the people who support you too. Don't you see? This is too blatant. Why would the seer throw down the gauntlet like this, instead of privately seer the rest of us and contact us? I still don't trust Swiftspear, but I do trust Nem0. If the seer was worried about dying, couldn't he just send out a Will pm?
And that's not even the beginning of it either. Should you get wolfed tonight, it could be by the person claiming to be the seer! Then the two of them would definetly be incriminated. Hell I'd vote against them after something like that had I not thought more about it. So I guess my point is that I refuse to just sit here and watch a one sided argument. If tomorrow, someone gets supposedly scanned who raised an argument against you today just because they did so, and I hear you cry wolf, be it me or muffinman or anyone else, I don't think I could sit and believe that. That's almost like scare tactics or McCarthyism.
I'm going to watch this, and I am going to watch what happens to all the people who even begin to doubt you.
My apologies Senator, scare tactics don't work on me. My vote goes to <b>Talesin</b>. I bet you <i>anything</i> I'm going to be called a wolf tomorrow because of this. Go ahead, do as you please. I'm angry that everyone else is cowed by this.
<b>Nemesis Zero</b>.
The trouble is that if the seer scanned two wolves, and one of the two humans seered died, then he wouldn't know who to trust. The wolves want the seer above all else.
Why would Talesin powerplay if all wolves are still alive? Why be so blatent?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And that's not even the beginning of it either. Should you get wolfed tonight, it could be by the person claiming to be the seer! Then the two of them would definetly be incriminated. Hell I'd vote against them after something like that had I not thought more about it. So I guess my point is that I refuse to just sit here and watch a one sided argument. If tomorrow, someone gets supposedly scanned who raised an argument against you today just because they did so, and I hear you cry wolf, be it me or muffinman or anyone else, I don't think I could sit and believe that. That's almost like scare tactics or McCarthyism.
I'm going to watch this, and I am going to watch what happens to all the people who even begin to doubt you.
My apologies Senator, scare tactics don't work on me. My vote goes to <b>Talesin</b>. I bet you <i>anything</i> I'm going to be called a wolf tomorrow because of this. Go ahead, do as you please. I'm angry that everyone else is cowed by this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I reckon all four of the wolves have already posted.
Talesin's argumentation right now is that it wouldn't hurt the human team at all to kill me today - if the psychic confirms me a wolf, you can continue with Swift, if not, you can still kill Tal.
This is just plain wrong. Assuming we still have four wolves in the game, and unless BadKarma was one, I'm going to trust that statement since it mirrors things I heard myself (believe it or not, but the people you are 'covering' here <i>survived</i> the contact with an alleged wolf), and two humans die this round, we're down to five human and four wolf players next round. In other words, assuming that they manage to convince as little as <i>one</i> player tomorrow, and I think this discussion shows that either possible group of wolves is quite apt at this, they'll be able to vote people off after their liking.
Tal insists on killing myself first. Why? Assuming that both Swift and I are wolves, wouldn't it be a damn spot more sensible to attack the more experienced player first to rob the wolves of their obvious brain of operations, not to mention that there were significantly bigger suspicions against that player? Why take a harder challenge of convincing people to lynch a newbie? What is it that makes me so dangerous to you, Tal?
The whole discussion is getting a tad bit too elaborate for my tastes. Amass a heap of data, and you'll be able to sow suspicion with the most ridiculous of 'proves':<ul><li>Swiftspear and Mantrid view the same thread at the same time. This <i>obviously</i> puts them into the same group of people.</li><li>I "never" doubted that Tal was contacted by a seer. So that's why I used all those quotes and expressions such as "In so far, this would be a nice smokescreen ploy, whether initiated by yourself or the <i>person who contacted you</i>."</li><li>None of the suspects tried to PM Tal to dissolve his convictions. My, what a surprise. I did not contact the from my vantage point most likely wolf player in the game with prove against his allegations. What would that prove consist of? That I was out drinking while they wolfed Im Lost? The only prove I could offer would be to reference other players. Do you earnestly think I'd spill my informative guts in front of someone who is likely to use them to pick his next victims out?</li></ul>The record shows that I have been sceptical all throughout this discussion, implying several times that I considered it as likely that a fake seer contacted Talesin as himself being a wolf. The aggressiviness of the last two pages reduced that hope.
I don't buy into this 'it's them or us' scheme. Swiftspear and I are no 'them'. We are two players who can not trust each other any more than any other player. The 'us' Tal proposes, on the other hand, consists of himself and a number of players we know necessarily absolutely nothing about. Great odds.
There is still a chance that you are simply the victim of a very convincing false seer. In that case, my apologies, but I vote against <b>Talesin</b>.
Talesin's argumentation right now is that it wouldn't hurt the human team at all to kill me today - if the psychic confirms me a wolf, you can continue with Swift, if not, you can still kill Tal.
This is just plain wrong. Assuming we still have four wolves in the game, <i>[snip]</i> and two humans die this round, we're down to five human and four wolf players next round. In other words, assuming that they manage to convince as little as <i>one</i> player tomorrow, and I think this discussion shows that either possible group of wolves is quite apt at this, they'll be able to vote people off after their liking. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It hurts to kill you less than it would to kill Talesin.
What can you offer the humans? At best, another round. Do you have information on the wolves? Are you in touch with the psychic, seer or guardian?
What can Talesin offer me, at best? A chance to win.
At worst, either of you's a wolf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tal insists on killing myself first. Why? Assuming that both Swift and I are wolves, wouldn't it be a damn spot more sensible to attack the more experienced player first to rob the wolves of their obvious brain of operations, not to mention that there were significantly bigger suspicions against that player? Why take a harder challenge of convincing people to lynch a newbie? What is it that makes me so dangerous to you, Tal?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're a wolf, that's probably what he finds threatening. I admit that I find it odd to target you first, though, but not so odd that it convinces me to vote against Talesin at this point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't buy into this 'it's them or us' scheme. Swiftspear and I are no 'them'. We are two players who can not trust each other any more than any other player. The 'us' Tal proposes, on the other hand, consists of himself and a number of players we know necessarily absolutely nothing about. Great odds.
There is still a chance that you are simply the victim of a very convincing false seer. In that case, my apologies, but I vote against <b>Talesin</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rhetoric. There is nothing to show that you aren't in private contact. We know that Tal is willing to take a huge risk that a wolf would be dumb to do, since they're winning so far. We don't necessarily know anything about you, either; and what I know about Swift sure makes me suspicious.
There is still a chance that you are simply the victim of a very convincing false seer. In that case, my apologies, but I vote against <b>Talesin</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rhetoric. There is nothing to show that you aren't in private contact. We know that Tal is willing to take a huge risk that a wolf would be dumb to do, since they're winning so far. We don't necessarily know anything about you, either; and what I know about Swift sure makes me suspicious. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
so, as far as I know you are in privite contact with talesin orchistrating this whole thing. Or even better, in privite contact with whoever is puppeting talesin if he acctually IS a human.
from the way you are talking I can only assume you know something something I don't, and I definately have to assume that your motivations for how you intend to use that information is far different from what mine are.
Yes, that's definately possible. Although I would have tried to get you voted off first, because I'm more sure that you're a wolf.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->from the way you are talking I can only assume you know something something I don't, and I definately have to assume that your motivations for how you intend to use that information is far different from what mine are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? I'm still waiting to hear how you are instrumental to a human victory, and how you know for a fact that Talesin is a wolf.
And if you are a wolf then yes, you would use the information differently. (:
Cold NiTe - 0.1
Hellfire3k - 0.1
Nemesis Zero - 3 (Talesin, Pulse, Snidely)
Talesin - 5 (Swiftspear, TheMuffinMan, Mantrid, Cold NiTe, Nemesis Zero)
I'm sorry for this, because I trusted you a lot for a long time, but when the water is this muddied I have to go with the less risky vote, the one that will hurt the humans the least should it turn out to be the wrong decision. <b>Nemesis Zero</b> gets my vote, and I can only hope the psychic comes out publicly tomorrow to confirm or condemn Talesin.
Cold NiTe - 0.1
Hellfire3k - 0.1
Nemesis Zero - 5 (Talesin, Pulse, Snidely, Sky, brute force)
Talesin - 5 (Swiftspear, TheMuffinMan, Mantrid, Cold NiTe, Nemesis Zero)
Talesin comes out at the pivotal point in the game with information that not one, but two of us are confirmed wolves. If it was only one wolf, then fair enough, we still have a chance to win. If we vote off two humans, however, we are guaranteed to lose. Sure, one of them may be a wolf, but then Talesin may be a wolf instead. (Or the guy who contacted him, but I doubt it. That would be very risky and lead a sneaky tail directly to a wolf. If we voted off Talesin and found out who had contacted him, you could place a decent bet on who would be voted off next).
If he had just found one wolf, or found more humans, or come out earlier in the game, or confirmed different people, then I might have believed him. As it stands, it <i>feels</i> more like a powerplay than anything else.
Cold, as I said, you will be scanned tonight. I am hoping that you are a human, but the apparent 'set-up' today seems to be attempting to make people expect a 'wolf' return tomorrow. Is this to save your own neck? This is no McCarthyism... no more than the game itself is. The difference being, one player can say *definitely* one way or the other if someone is a wolf. I can only believe that I am speaking for that player.
I would also comment about how Nem, Swift, TMM, *and* Mantrid all seem to be pulling together to get me lynched, when Nem is the only one at risk.
Again, I ask for a chance. Lynch me tomorrow instead of Swift if you still feel that I'm doubtful.
We are all banding together because this is what this game has come to. I may not be in any danger of being lynched myself, but voting off nem will be the beginning of the end. There are only two parties in any danger, and everyone needs to side with either one or the other. People standing on the sidelines will damage us more than if they chose a side, for better or for worse.
It's not "convenient" at all.
We agree that no wolves have yet been lynched, right?
Talesin was suspicious, but not in grave danger. He comes out and accuses Nem and Swift, who are tough targets.
Now, all wolves had to do is keep back and let humans garner all the suspicion. Unless threatened, the wolves would win a couple of turns. Why would Talesin make a move that forces the rest of the wolves to show themselves? Why would he risk prolonging the game more than necessary, when time is harmful to wolves?
The answer is: he wouldn't.
I would also comment about how Nem, Swift, TMM, *and* Mantrid all seem to be pulling together to get me lynched, when Nem is the only one at risk.
Again, I ask for a chance. Lynch me tomorrow instead of Swift if you still feel that I'm doubtful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's just the thing Talesin. It's my belief that you are accusing anyone who goes against you as being a wolf. Thus when I go against you, I believe that I will be accused. That just strikes me as the logical thing for you to do, as it would be part of your grandstanding. Note that I didn't and still don't believe that Nem0 is a wolf. His playing style just doesn't seem to fit that, and from the few times we've spoken, he's confirmed my doubts of other players.
As for those four pulling together. Normally I would be inclined to agree with you, but Nem and Swift are obviously voting against you because you incriminated them. It's what anyone in their position would do, because by doing that you confirmed to them that you or your source is a wolf. Mantrid seems to bandwagon a lot, and I've got my own suspicions about that, probably for another day, when people will listen to darned thing I say. TMM has got an argument. I don't completely understand it, but I'm not the brightest star in the universe so that doesn't surprise me.
As for lynching you tomorrow, the damage will be done by then because Nem0 will be dead, when he hasn't provided me ANY reason to doubt him. And why on earth are you so ready to keep Swift alive tomorrow? Does this have any correlation with my accusing you of actually being on the same team as him and trying to play off each other in such a way that if everyone sides with one of you, the other is guaranteed to stay alive for another 2 or 3 turns?
Anyway I have a pm to answer. I'll be back later. But I have work at 5:30 so I'm not going to be here for the final conclusion of all of this.
Nope. I think that one wolf has been voted out. I have no proof, but i would like to think that we got at least one vote right <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, all wolves had to do is keep back and let humans garner all the suspicion<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fake seer gambit that the wolves are playing acts as a major smokescreen for any wolves. In normal circumstances, my arguments would have gotten me voted off (just like woned). You would have also been voted off. There has been a major shift in the game. Instead of us acting on hunches, we are supposed to vote off whoever Talesin tells us to.
Alot of this stems from the fact that i have been suspicious of Talesin from the start, while i trust Nem and Swiftspear. They have given me nothing at all that even hints at them being wolves, while Talesin has.
It is a risky plan, i agree, but if we vote off Nem or Swift then we will lose the game. If, as you say, there are four wolves left, then we really cannot afford to lose two human players, let alone four.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless threatened, the wolves would win a couple of turns. Why would Talesin make a move that forces the rest of the wolves to show themselves? Why would he risk prolonging the game more than necessary, when time is harmful to wolves?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is he forcing the wolves to show themselves? He is not prolonging the game, he is giving us a reason to vote off two players. If they are human, and we go along with Talesin, then we lose 4 humans and the wolves take over. Instead of us acting on hunches, he has given us a direction to point our votes. A direction that will lose us the game.
Cold : My argument is based around the hope that the real seer is still alive, and that he will contact someone who can then come out into the open and confirm Talesins story. Sure, this can happen if Nem is dead instead of Talesin, but i definitely trust Talesin less.
Cold, I am not simply accusing people out of reaction. I have PMs predating their accusatory posts from the two others in the circle, stating their suspicions. I already acknowledged that it would look like a vengeful response. There's very little I can say today that will change your mind... after all, you trust Nem.
In that case, we have breathing room. Losing Nem or Swift won't be a crippling blow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fake seer gambit that the wolves are playing acts as a major smokescreen for any wolves. In normal circumstances, my arguments would have gotten me voted off (just like woned). You would have also been voted off. There has been a major shift in the game. Instead of us acting on hunches, we are supposed to vote off whoever Talesin tells us to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Smokescreens can also be helpful for humans, because it creates a set of people, and at least one of them is bound to be a wolf. In this case, we have two camps; chances are good that the wolves are weighing in on one side.
If Talesin is a wolf, then me (Snidely), Pulse and Sky/Brute Force are wolves.
If Nem is a wolf, then Swift, Mantrid, and you (Muffinman) are probably wolves. Possibly Cold Nite, too, but I don't think a wolf would allow himself to get a phantom vote.
If neither are wolves, then wolves are on both sides. Voting off Swift would have less impact in this case, since he doesn't appear to have contact with the seer.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Alot of this stems from the fact that i have been suspicious of Talesin from the start, while i trust Nem and Swiftspear. They have given me nothing at all that even hints at them being wolves, while Talesin has.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you mean bandwagoning, then human roles might act the same way. Apart from that, I don't see any incriminating evidence against Talesin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a risky plan, i agree, but if we vote off Nem or Swift then we will lose the game. If, as you say, there are four wolves left, then we really cannot afford to lose two human players, let alone four.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the wolves are on all sides, then Talesin is probably human, and we can't afford to lose him, either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How is he forcing the wolves to show themselves? He is not prolonging the game, he is giving us a reason to vote off two players. If they are human, and we go along with Talesin, then we lose 4 humans and the wolves take over. Instead of us acting on hunches, he has given us a direction to point our votes. A direction that will lose us the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he is right, and Nem and Swift are wolves, then he is forcing the wolves to vote for their own to keep them in the game. If he is a wolf himself, then the wolves will want to protect him. If they do not, then the humans get more time, since the game ends when the number of wolves equals the number of humans. The last two scenarios would not be desirable for wolves.
What makes the decision easy is the very fact that nobody knows anything. Every scrap of evidence you <i>think</i> you have could actually be a piece of anti-evidence meant to throw you off the right track.
Therefore it is in the humans' best interests to vote for Nem0 tonight, and to pray that the psychic comes out tomorrow. <u>ANY</u> other vote is a crapshoot, and we simply do not have the numbers to gamble any more.
I did it, in part, to try and see different peoples opinions on the seer without seeming suspicious. Secondly, i thought it would be a bit of a laugh, and thirdly, i actually believed it to a degree. I have decided, however, that you guys are actually right, and voting for Talesin would be a mistake. Therefore, <b>Nemesis Zero</b>
It is now night five, no posting!</span></b>
<b>Talesin</b> sat on his bed, rolling the tiny vial between his fingers. He heard voices, and stuffed it into his breast pocket. In came <b>Nemesis Zero,</b> <b>brute force</b> and <b>Cold NiTe.</b>
"We need to talk," said <b>Cold NiTe.</b>
"We do? What about? Have you shot yourself in the foot and need me to dress the wound or what?"
"Leave this to me," said <b>Nemesis Zero.</b> "<b>Talesin,</b> our best chance lies in flying to the supply depot at Barn--"
"So you keep saying."
"Yes, but <b>Swiftspear</b> is our expert on propulsion, and he is unwilling to give control over the FTL drive to me. He knows more about the machines than any of us, and as long as he is opposing us, there's nothing we can do."
<b>Talesin</b> got up, went over to the coffee dispenser and poured himself a cup. He took a sip and grimaced at the taste. He didn't like the stuff, and this was probably hours, if not even days old. He kept his back turned to the three for a moment, then turned and spoke: "I don't see how I can help you with that. My specialty is the anatomy of humans, not machines." He paused for a moment, regarding the three, and continued: "You look like a warlord with two well-armed men at your side like that. If it's really that important, why don't you force him at gunpoint?"
<b>Nemesis Zero</b> gave an exasperated sigh: "You've known <b>Swiftspear</b> for almost as long as I have. He probably has the core control systems so firmly in his grasp that nobody could access them without his permission. The captain probably had master override access, but that's hardly of use to us now. And you <i>know</i> what Swiftspear's like: He would probably see any physical threats against him as an admission of guilt, and choose to die like a martyr rather than cooperate with us. He's always been like that. No, we've given up on that for now. This leaves us with only one chance: Kill the formtakers before they kill us. And you can help us to do that."
"I don't see how. If the formtakers were bacteria, I could probably develop a vaccine against them, but against higher lifeforms there's not much I can do."
"I think you can. They're not humans. There have to be chemicals or bacteria that have an adverse effect on them, but not on us. If anybody can help us with that, it's you."
"I'm sorry, but I've been looking into that as well. There's nothing I can do. They're imitating us too well. Sorry."
<b>Nemesis Zero</b> took a step towards <b>Talesin,</b> and said in a quiet voice: "I warn you, <b>Talesin.</b> This is no game. People have died, and people will continue to die. Don't mess around with me."
"Or what? Will you have your goons kill me? What good is that going to do? You're paranoid, you're falling apart! If these were normal conditions, I'd send you to a counselor. Get out of my sight!"
<b>Nemesis Zero</b> turned around and nodded towards <b>brute force</b> and <b>Cold NiTe.</b> As they left, he turned back to <b>Talesin:</b> "We'll talk later."
Since im lost's disappearance, the little hideout didn't seems as comfy anymore. <b>Hellfire3k</b> sat facing the entrace, the rifle always within reach. Mantrid studied technical diagrams of various parts of the ship. The music player stayed silent. Neither of them said anything, and rarely even moved or changed position. They had a bucket now so they didn't have to leave the hideout, but they hadn't used it so far, and didn't feel much like it.
"No, not over there! For goodness' sake, <i>not</i> over there! You'd kill us! The next crossbeam to your left, if you please," said <b>Swiftspear.</b>
<b>Pulse</b> wiped sweat from his brow and paused his work for a moment. "You still haven't explained to me what we're doing here. Why are we planting explosives in the corridors around the machine room?"
<b>Swiftspear</b> took the charge from <b>Pulse</b> and started affixing it to the crossbeam: "You know that the <i>Freya</i> consists of three sections: The habitat section, the cargo section and the machine section. The bridge, machine room, FTL drive and sublight drive are all part of the machine section. Technically, this is already a spaceship in its own right. In fact, when this class of ship was designed, the initial design foresaw using the machine section as a sort of lifeboat if it should become necessary. This was abandoned at a later stage in the project, but the structural design hasn't changed fundamentally since then. We can't just detach the machine section, but if we'd blow it loose, there's a good chance that it wouldn't take critical damage. So this will be our emergency plan: If we have to, we seal ourselves up in here, blow the machine section loose and make our getaway. At least <i>we</i> will get out of this alive. Hand me another charge."
"Aren't you forgetting about the alien ship out there? Do you think it'll just let us get away?"
"No, but it may just have to. I don't know how fast it can move, but it'll have to be one hell of a ship if it can keep up with us. Ol' Einstein hates being cheated, and it takes a lot of energy to do so, but without the habitat section and cargo section, there's substantially less mass we have to get past him. I believe we would be able to surpass 500c."
<b>TheMuffinMan</b> found im lost's corpse among the mining machines. There was congealed blood all over the floor, and the body itself was stiff and cold. Just as im lost had instructed him, he searched his left pocket and found what he was looking for.
<b>Sky</b> swore and swore and swore. <b>Pulse</b> and <b>Snidely</b> were obstinate bastards, and im lost and <b>Hellfire3k</b> were nowhere to be found. In the end, he had decided to go over to the ship alone. It seemed like everyone else was just content to wait for their turn to die, but he was not. Putting on the space suit without help took him the better part of an hour, which is what prompted all the swearing, but eventually he put on the helm and sealed up. He stepped into the airlock and cycled it. Through his helmet, he heard a faint hiss as the athmosphere in the small chamber escaped into the vacuum of space. He moved out of the airlock and felt weightlessness relieve him of the burden of the heavy space suit. Using his thrusters, he maneuvered around the bulky shape of the <i>Freya</i> and made his way towards the alien ship. Floating there in space, it looked peaceful and harmless, but he knew better. After a few minutes of searching, he found the airlock that the original boarders had forced open.
He went inside.
<b>"Talesin</b> my friend. You've had some time to think about what I said by now. So, now that you're willing to help us, let's--"
"I don't know what you're talking about, <b>Nemesis Zero.</b> I said it last time, and I'll say it again: I have no clue what I can do."
<b>Nemesis Zero</b> had a look of intense disappointment on his face. A few paces behind him stood <b>brute force</b> and <b>Cold NiTe,</b> unmoving.
"Don't be like that, <b>Talesin.</b> You have nothing to lose by trying to help us, and nothing to gain by refusing to do so."
<b>Talesin</b> glared into <b>Nemesis Zero's</b> eyes, unwavering. <b>Nemesis Zero</b> glared back. For an eternal moment they stood like that, locked in a sort of silent duel. Finally, <b>Nemesis Zero</b> withdrew his gaze.
"So sorry to hear that. I wish it could have been different." He turned to <b>brute force</b> and motioned towards <b>Talesin.</b> "If you would."
By way of answering, <b>brute force</b> withdrew the gun from his shoulder holster and fired in one fluid motion...
<span style='color:red'><b>Nemesis Zero</b></span> slumped to the floor, a hole between his eyes. <b>brute force</b> holstered his gun. "I don't even care what you were. Your reign of oppression ends here. I won't be your lackey."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Players still left in the game:
<b>Talesin</b>
<b>TheMuffinMan</b>
<b>Pulse</b>
<b>Sky</b>
<b>brute force</b>
<b>Swiftspear</b>
<b>Hellfire3k</b>
<b>Snidely</b>
<b>Cold NiTe</b>
<b>Mantrid</b>
I will need PMs from the <span style='color:blue'><b>guardian</b></span> (if alive), <span style='color:blue'><b>seer</b></span> (if alive) and any remaining <span style='color:red'><b>formtakers</b></span> before we advance to day five.
Day five will begin on <b>friday, the 15th of April, 21:00 GMT.</b> A bit later than normal, once again.