common - give rush a break here - 90% of what was there was either questions or quotes from other people. He had 1 paragraph that I included in that excerpt of his own opinion - the rest is from a nurse who assisted Terri.
As much as I would love to debate Christiantiy with y'all (I happen to be Christian) this thread is not the proper place for it. Even less when both sides decide instead of using intelectual arguements and instead just see who can insult the other the most.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Mar 23 2005, 02:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Mar 23 2005, 02:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> common - give rush a break here - <b>90% of what was there was either questions or quotes from other people.</b> He had 1 paragraph that I included in that excerpt of his own opinion - the rest is from a nurse who assisted Terri. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Emphasis mine.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 22 2005, 09:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 22 2005, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Mar 22 2005, 09:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Mar 22 2005, 09:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but I think we take a lot more than we give out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hahahahahahahahahhahahahaa! Woa. Seriously. What is it with you guys (you know who I'm talking about) and feeling like you're the underdog all the time? Get over it. You are not the underdog. And you most definatly do not take more then you dish out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ? Justify that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Mar 22 2005, 10:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 22 2005, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 22 2005, 09:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 22 2005, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Mar 22 2005, 09:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Mar 22 2005, 09:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but I think we take a lot more than we give out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hahahahahahahahahhahahahaa! Woa. Seriously. What is it with you guys (you know who I'm talking about) and feeling like you're the underdog all the time? Get over it. You are not the underdog. And you most definatly do not take more then you dish out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ? Justify that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No. It would needlessly derail the thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Mar 22 2005, 10:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 22 2005, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then don't post it -_- <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then don't say things like that. (Yes, I realize that Pepe said it)
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
Considering most of this thread is filler, I'll try to be brief.
I don't know all the specifics (or unspecifics) that have been passed around so fervently the last few days but my opinion on this case hasn't changed since I first heard the scenario.
This has been going on for 15 years. Something like 20 different judges have heard arguments and as far as I know, the great majority, if not all, have determined that the husband's decision to remove all support is legal. What I'm hearing now (mostly against my will) is individuals crawling out of the woodwork with horror stories of abuse, neglect, and attempted murder. Where were these expert witnesses during the last 15 years? I'm also hearing stories that do nothing more than project well-wisher's hopes into interpretation of this woman's "behavior".
Then there's the US House. ugh. These <expletives> are more than willing to stay up all night and all through the weekend conjuring legislation to solve a case that's been in State courts for the last 15 years but they're just too damn lazy to wiggle a pen on paper to condemn our leaking borders, beg forgiveness for wasting our money on idiot programs that help insignificant percentages of the population, or figure out how to stop bleeding my checkbook with skyrocketing gas prices. Peggy Noonan recently <a href='http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/' target='_blank'>prophecied that Republicans would bite the big one if Terry died.</a> While I like Noonan's thoughts most of the time, she's dead wrong on this case. Quite the opposite. If these politicians continue to persist on interfering with State courts and throwing their wannabe weight around, they're doomed in 2006. That is, assuming people are able to remember this far back.
One of my favorite radio shows summed it up nicely for me: This wouldn't be a story on page 22B of the local paper if video of this woman hadn't shown up on the nightly news. It's the video that has the public questioning this story rather than the facts presented to so many judges. A few seconds of time captured on tape that we are to believe represents the last 15 years. I don't buy the rest of their excrutiatingly edited footage, I don't buy this either.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 22 2005, 10:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 22 2005, 10:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Mar 22 2005, 10:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 22 2005, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then don't post it -_- <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then don't say things like that. (Yes, I realize that Pepe said it) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> /me bangs head on table
I'm done, call me when you guys get back on the topic. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> Y'all sound like a bunch of kindergardeners....
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Mar 23 2005, 12:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Mar 23 2005, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wonder how much the Schiavo feeding tube would go for on eBay...? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Man, that would be deliciously morbid.
After the circus this thing has become, that would just top off the whole thing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Mar 22 2005, 09:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 22 2005, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BulletHead+Mar 22 2005, 09:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BulletHead @ Mar 22 2005, 09:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me make it simple-
For all you religious freaks
Why didn't God spare this woman from such a HORRIBLE existance... one without God, without Sin, without even so much as Rational Thought
and for all the others
Put yourself in that womans shoes... what would YOU want done? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but according to you guys, there is no woman to do the wanting -_-
and stop labeling us religious freaks. you guys seriously need to reexamine your stance on religion, *edit* it borders on personal attacks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe in a quasi-scientific form of Christianity
God gave us the ability to EVOLVE, ADAPT, THINK, and CREATE for a reason... that we may better ourselves. Thus, we are not dependant on "miracles" all the time cause, c'mon... as the ULTIMATE conciousness... I'm sure after the first 5000 or so years he got fed up with spoon feeding everyone the information they wanted 0o'
I personally don't want to take a stance on this, because I don't really know all the intimate details, but I'm with Spooge about the House. To put it bluntly, it's bullsh!t that they're willing to work so hard for a vegetable but they won't put out half the effort for me.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
Why does this topic exist? It's none of our business, it's none of anyone's business except for the people involved. Our opinions can only be half-informed at best and completely assumed at worst. And obviously this topic was destined to get off track in religious squibbling from the first post.
"Now, I don't care about the politics - I'm not so sure I care about the Flordia law even. Rather, I try to care about what is "right"... and here is my perspective on the matter."
Right and wrong does not exist naturally it can be made reality by the social manipulations of human society. Usually the people that have the power, they are the people have the power to say which is right and which is wrong. So therotically the politicians can decide on the outcome
With that said, I want to inject some reality into what has become a ridiculous case of abuse of power, media spin, and gross misrepresentation.
Terri Schiavo is in a PVS. Her parents used to admit it. Now they and their supporters deny it. But she is undoubtedly in a PVS.
That she vocalizes, moves, grimaces/smiles/cries/laughs, even follows things with her eyes in a limited way, are not signs of conciousness. They are consistent with PVS, and precisely what makes PVS so difficult as a dignosis: the person may SEEM to be there if you desperately believe it, but they are not. The key issue is whether she is consistent in certain actions or reponsive. She is neither, all misleadingly edited videotape and wishful thinking to the contrary.
PVS is usually only considered to be permanent after three months with no improvement. Terri Schiavo has been like this for 15 years. She had all sorts of radical therapy during the first few years of her condidition, but there was no improvement, and indeed a deterioration in her condition and clinical findings (for instance, CT). There is no therapy that can restore her missing brain tissue. And indeed, one of the reasons Terri's PVS is different from other PVS and brain damage stories is that the damage is so extensive. It has almost entirely wiped out her neocortex. PVS is usually diagnosed based on external examinations: there are no specific clinical signs on brain scans that lead to PVS (the brain is so complex that it can be damaged in all sorts of different ways to lead to the same effect). But even a CT shows massive, just massive loss of brain tissue. No finer detail is needed to tell us what is going on here.
In Florida, feeding tubes are defined as artificial life support.
The Supreme Court has prevoiously affirmed that patients can refuse care, even when that refusal leads to death, and that their wishes can be carried out even while incapacitated if there clear and convincing evidence of their wishes. This is also consonant with most state laws, including Florida.
A court of law has ruled that there is such evidence. Appeals courts have repeatedly affirmed this decision, noting both that the standard should always be to err on the side of life, but that in this case, the evidence presented to the judge had MET THAT STANDARD. In addition, whatever you think of Michael Schiavo, he did not ultimately make the decision nor was his testimony the only thing that convinced the judge. Here is an appeals court commenting on that:
"We note that the guardianship court's original order expressly relied upon and found credible the testimony of witnesses other than Mr. Schiavo or the Schindlers. We recognize that Mrs. Schiavo's earlier oral statements were important evidence when deciding whether she would choose in February 2000 to withdraw life-prolonging procedures. See § 765.401(3), Fla. Stat. (2000); In re Guardianship of Browning, 568 So. 2d 4, 16. Nevertheless, the trial judge, acting as her proxy, also properly considered evidence of Mrs. Schiavo's values, personality, and her own decision-making process."
As to all the stuff being thrown around about Michael Schiavo, I suggest you really read the GAL report. It was prepared by an indepedant investigator appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush. It states that there can be little doubt that Michael is sincere, and dismisses the motives against him such as infidelity, abuse, and financial gain.
Just to deal with some of the issues that are being brought up a lot:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rather, when we look at this mans personal life, we see that he is engaged to another woman, with whom he has 2 kids. This is while being married to Terri - not the marks of a good husband.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read the GAL report, you'll note that the Schindlers, Terri's parents, convinced Michael that he had to move on with his life, and they encouraged him both to date other women, as well as bring those women by to see the family. The Schindlers and Schiavos used to be quite close until enmity over Terri's condition tore them apart.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also look for evidence in the people arround Terri - the nurses. Here is a link to an account from one of the nurses. It is on Rush Limbaughs site (so if your a right wing hater, you might not want to go there) - but it is a good read and gives insight into the character of the husband.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, even if some of this stuff is true (and since much of it stands in direct contrast to the medical findings and repeated examinations by investigators, I don't think a lot of it IS true), it isn't very telling at all. All of it comes after the period in which Michael had resigned himself to the fact that Terri was gone, and that keeping her alive longer or treating her like she was alive and conscious was both against her wishes and degrading. Remember, it took Michael years to stop the practice of things like demanding that her makeup be done everyday, clothes changed, etc. It hardly seems fair that after he set these things aside as a false hope or illusion, these nurses should start doing it again. No wonder he was angry with them for trying to play God or manipulate Terri like a doll.
But finally, we have to realize that Michael is not the one making this decision. That role was given over to the courts, and the courts have consistently found that there is no reasonable argument as to Terri's rights being violated by allowing her to refuse care, and indeed, if anything, it's the other way around: denying that right for the past decade has been a violation of her rights.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Follow the money - who has the multi-million dollar life insurance policy? - who would benefit from this?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no life insurance policy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and so far the husband has made over 300k off of terri. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it. As far as I can tell, Michael Schiavo has gone broke trying to fight litterally BILLIONS of dollars worth of right-wing groups pouring money into this case both in terms of paying for the Schindler's multi-million dollar legal team, as well as managing the media, lobbying Congress, and so on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The rest have to do with "how brain dead is she" - which doesn't have that much to do with the argument of weather or not she should live.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It most certainly does have a lot to do with it. People who can't even pronounce her name correctly are claiming, falsely, that she is awake, conscious, and talking!
The vast majority in this country would not wish to be maintained indefinately with no cognition and no hope of recovery. Terri is no different. This case is not about what the state believes about whether or not someone should live or die: it's about people being able to refuse care to maintain conditions past a certain threshold. The ONLY legal issue here are what Terri's wishes would have been.
This is telling, because you can infer two things from it: one is that Terri's father is sincere. He desperately wants to believe that Terri is actually responding to him. But all that's really going on is that he is unconsciously attempting to match the rhythm of her rising and falling moaning by speaking within the pauses. Because her moans aren't regular, it doesn't always work.
The other is that, if you are a layperson, you can see how it is possible to believe that Terri is still cognitively active. But these vocalizations do not, in fact, suggest that she is not in PVS. When enough of the higher brain dies, part of the functions that it loses are the ability to inhibit the motor cortex. That leaves the motor cortex to fend for itself, and the result are a lot of reflexive movements and vocalizations.
You might also find the audio very painful to listen to, as I certainly did.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Mar 23 2005, 02:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 23 2005, 02:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, if she is already for all intents and purposes dead, why are you making such a fuss if her parents want to keep what's left of her? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The man has a point.
If all her higher brain functions are gone and her consciousness doesn't exist, then we're talking about a slab of proteins, not a person.
Of course, by prolonging this meat sack's lifespan, if you believe that the soul is tethered to the body in some indefinable way, you are deliberately preventing her from going to heaven, hell, purgatory, Detroit or wherever it is that you think people's magic mojo goes.
So the only thing that is really "suffering" if this state of affairs is true, is <b>Terri's immortal soul</b>.
You know who could help sort this mess out? That god guy everyone keeps raving about.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 23 2005, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 23 2005, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know who could help sort this mess out? That god guy everyone keeps raving about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "I think God is dead."
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Mar 23 2005, 12:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Mar 23 2005, 12:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Mar 23 2005, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Mar 23 2005, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know who could help sort this mess out? That god guy everyone keeps raving about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "I think God is dead." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And then Nietzsche went bat**** insane, fell into a coma, and died.
Unless a majroity of you still can't spit out the bitter aftertaste of AvengerX's escapades, I think it's safe to say that "God bless you" can now be officially considered an insult on this forum. A doubleplus good to the fact that people feel the need to use caps lock their statements just to make a point. Yes, I do this myself, but I do my best throw my hissyfits in Off-Topic rather than here.
No wonder the mods don't even bother to touch this sorry excuse of a debate forum anymore unless faced with incessant prodding.
It also comes as no surprise that with this attitude, I have to deal with a worthless breed of zealous Xian haters who need to borrow second-rate Something Awful mob tactics to hurl pornography and Xian hate on our forums.
I'm sorry if the advertisement linking to our Xian forums provided by fellow members on this board are oh so caustic to your God weary eyes. If you find the links to hideously affront your sight, I can only make the suggestion of turning signatures off. I realize that in doing so, you're cut off from seeing the cool signatures that other people have, but I'm sure the trade-off will be worthwhile to some of you.
Feel free to drop by and berate my religious stupidity any time.
The latest news has a prominent Jacksonville neurologist releasing an affadavit to Jeb Bush (Governor of Florida) stating that Terry Schiavo is not in a "persistent vegetative state" as described, but rather in a "minimally conscious state".
Worth noting is this neurologist based his diagnosis on observations (in person and on video) and never has examined her. There are also 30 other such affadavits filed by various doctors that seem to corelate with this one.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dessidious Confuzor+Mar 23 2005, 09:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dessidious Confuzor @ Mar 23 2005, 09:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Feel free to drop by and berate my religious stupidity any time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, but remember you asked for it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless a majroity of you still can't spit out the bitter aftertaste of AvengerX's escapades, I think it's safe to say that "God bless you" can now be officially considered an insult on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would take it as such, yes. I don't know about others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A doubleplus good to the fact that people feel the need to use caps lock their statements just to make a point. Yes, I do this myself, but I do my best throw my hissyfits in Off-Topic rather than here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But typically theres nothing worth getting annoyed about in off topic. Its a different story around here with every one trying to push agendas, party polotics, or religious viewpoints on eachother. Usually its just used to emphasize a point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No wonder the mods don't even bother to touch this sorry excuse of a debate forum anymore unless faced with incessant prodding.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is totally not the way to handle it. They should just get out the ban stick and start using it, that'd keep us in line. It used to in the old days, but sadly MonsE gone now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It also comes as no surprise that with this attitude, I have to deal with a worthless breed of zealous Xian haters who need to borrow second-rate Something Awful mob tactics to hurl pornography and Xian hate on our forums.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you taling about this forum? Because if you're not, then why should I care? And if you are, then WTH are you talking about?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry if the advertisement linking to our Xian forums provided by fellow members on this board are oh so caustic to your God weary eyes. If you find the links to hideously affront your sight, I can only make the suggestion of turning signatures off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm going to assume you're talking about FHF. And if thats the case, then who here is annoyed by the FHF link in people's sig? I'm not. I mean hell, if I wanted to I could just keep a link to a satanic forum (the old fasioned scary kind run by goths or something).
Seriously, what was the point of this post?
---
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The latest news has a prominent Jacksonville neurologist releasing an affadavit to Jeb Bush (Governor of Florida) stating that Terry Schiavo is not in a "persistent vegetative state" as described, but rather in a "minimally conscious state".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats complete ****. If you read the PDF apos posted then you realise that this has already been dealt with in a court of law and Terri has been deemed to be in a PVS by doctors who knew what they were talking about and provided non-anecdotal evidence for their diagnosis.
(BTW: If it sounds like I'm directing this at Depot specifically, I'm not)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Worth noting is this neurologist based his diagnosis on observations (in person and on video) and never has examined her. There are also 30 other such affadavits filed by various doctors that seem to corelate with this one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only 30? Whats the scope of this? Are they all neurologists? Are they all qualified to make such a diagnosis? If so, then I have lost all faith in the medical community. A blind man could see whats going on here.
Most of the 30 aren't even relevant doctors (many are things like speech therapists) and they all share one thing in common: they haven't examined Terri, but have simply seen the manipulative videos of her shown on TV. Because of this, they say alll sorts of bizarre things in their afidavits, like how she might benefit from acupuncture or speech therapy (how? That part of her brain is MISSING!)
This latest guy is the most credible of the bunch, but the phenomenon is still at the point of "you can round up a bunch of people who'll say anything" rather than "there is legitimate medical controversy over her state."
Even if she was MCS, there is little reason to think her wishes would be different, so the point would be moot.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Mar 23 2005, 11:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Mar 23 2005, 11:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Worth noting is this neurologist based his diagnosis on observations (in person and on video) and never has examined her. There are also 30 other such affadavits filed by various doctors that seem to corelate with this one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only 30? Whats the scope of this? Are they all neurologists? Are they all qualified to make such a diagnosis? If so, then I have lost all faith in the medical community. A blind man could see whats going on here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course they're all qualified to make such a diagnosis, they filed affadavits.
<!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Even if she was MCS, there is little reason to think her wishes would be different, so the point would be moot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Mar 24 2005, 04:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Even if she was MCS, there is little reason to think her wishes would be different, so the point would be moot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're referring, of course, to <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002' target='_blank'>this guy?</a>
Of course, the biggest talking point is that he's a <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009' target='_blank'>Nobel Peace Prize [sic] in Medicine Nominee</a>
I nominate Apos for the Nobel Peace Prize in medicine!
It's a wash, we both have an absurd nominee (no offense, Apos <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) arguing our side.
Tell you what, though-- I have a bet out there for any takers: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->She'll probably be able to communicate verbally over the course of about two years of treatment with medication. And then as far as being able to use her arms and use her legs, she'll be able to use those. This woman is not in a coma. She's not in PVS [persistent vegetative state]. She's not that bad. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will bet you <i>one thousand dollars</i> (American) that-- if her tube is not removed-- this will <i>not</i> happen.
Any takers? I'm <b>quite</b> serious. Put your money where your rhetoric is.
<!--QuoteBegin-BathroomMonkey+Mar 24 2005, 12:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Mar 24 2005, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Mar 24 2005, 04:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Even if she was MCS, there is little reason to think her wishes would be different, so the point would be moot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're referring, of course, to <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002' target='_blank'>this guy?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No that's not him. This doctor is a renowned neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Mar 24 2005, 04:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 04:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-BathroomMonkey+Mar 24 2005, 12:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BathroomMonkey @ Mar 24 2005, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Mar 24 2005, 04:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Mar 24 2005, 04:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Apos+Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Mar 24 2005, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Even if she was MCS, there is little reason to think her wishes would be different, so the point would be moot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're referring, of course, to <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002' target='_blank'>this guy?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No that's not him. This doctor is a renowned neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Presumably he has a name?
Comments
Emphasis mine.
Er, that's hearsay.
Hahahahahahahahahhahahahaa! Woa. Seriously. What is it with you guys (you know who I'm talking about) and feeling like you're the underdog all the time? Get over it. You are not the underdog. And you most definatly do not take more then you dish out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
? Justify that.
Hahahahahahahahahhahahahaa! Woa. Seriously. What is it with you guys (you know who I'm talking about) and feeling like you're the underdog all the time? Get over it. You are not the underdog. And you most definatly do not take more then you dish out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
? Justify that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It would needlessly derail the thread.
Then don't say things like that. (Yes, I realize that Pepe said it)
I don't know all the specifics (or unspecifics) that have been passed around so fervently the last few days but my opinion on this case hasn't changed since I first heard the scenario.
This has been going on for 15 years. Something like 20 different judges have heard arguments and as far as I know, the great majority, if not all, have determined that the husband's decision to remove all support is legal. What I'm hearing now (mostly against my will) is individuals crawling out of the woodwork with horror stories of abuse, neglect, and attempted murder. Where were these expert witnesses during the last 15 years? I'm also hearing stories that do nothing more than project well-wisher's hopes into interpretation of this woman's "behavior".
Then there's the US House. ugh. These <expletives> are more than willing to stay up all night and all through the weekend conjuring legislation to solve a case that's been in State courts for the last 15 years but they're just too damn lazy to wiggle a pen on paper to condemn our leaking borders, beg forgiveness for wasting our money on idiot programs that help insignificant percentages of the population, or figure out how to stop bleeding my checkbook with skyrocketing gas prices. Peggy Noonan recently <a href='http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/' target='_blank'>prophecied that Republicans would bite the big one if Terry died.</a> While I like Noonan's thoughts most of the time, she's dead wrong on this case. Quite the opposite. If these politicians continue to persist on interfering with State courts and throwing their wannabe weight around, they're doomed in 2006. That is, assuming people are able to remember this far back.
One of my favorite radio shows summed it up nicely for me: This wouldn't be a story on page 22B of the local paper if video of this woman hadn't shown up on the nightly news. It's the video that has the public questioning this story rather than the facts presented to so many judges. A few seconds of time captured on tape that we are to believe represents the last 15 years. I don't buy the rest of their excrutiatingly edited footage, I don't buy this either.
Then don't say things like that. (Yes, I realize that Pepe said it) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/me bangs head on table
I'm done, call me when you guys get back on the topic. <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Y'all sound like a bunch of kindergardeners....
Man, that would be deliciously morbid.
After the circus this thing has become, that would just top off the whole thing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
For all you religious freaks
Why didn't God spare this woman from such a HORRIBLE existance... one without God, without Sin, without even so much as Rational Thought
and for all the others
Put yourself in that womans shoes... what would YOU want done? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but according to you guys, there is no woman to do the wanting -_-
and stop labeling us religious freaks. you guys seriously need to reexamine your stance on religion, *edit* it borders on personal attacks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe in a quasi-scientific form of Christianity
God gave us the ability to EVOLVE, ADAPT, THINK, and CREATE for a reason... that we may better ourselves. Thus, we are not dependant on "miracles" all the time cause, c'mon... as the ULTIMATE conciousness... I'm sure after the first 5000 or so years he got fed up with spoon feeding everyone the information they wanted 0o'
Right and wrong does not exist naturally it can be made reality by the social manipulations of human society. Usually the people that have the power, they are the people have the power to say which is right and which is wrong. So therotically the politicians can decide on the outcome
<a href='http://nationalreview.com/pdf/SchiavoFinalReport.pdf' target='_blank'>GAL report</a>
With that said, I want to inject some reality into what has become a ridiculous case of abuse of power, media spin, and gross misrepresentation.
Terri Schiavo is in a PVS. Her parents used to admit it. Now they and their supporters deny it. But she is undoubtedly in a PVS.
That she vocalizes, moves, grimaces/smiles/cries/laughs, even follows things with her eyes in a limited way, are not signs of conciousness. They are consistent with PVS, and precisely what makes PVS so difficult as a dignosis: the person may SEEM to be there if you desperately believe it, but they are not. The key issue is whether she is consistent in certain actions or reponsive. She is neither, all misleadingly edited videotape and wishful thinking to the contrary.
PVS is usually only considered to be permanent after three months with no improvement. Terri Schiavo has been like this for 15 years. She had all sorts of radical therapy during the first few years of her condidition, but there was no improvement, and indeed a deterioration in her condition and clinical findings (for instance, CT). There is no therapy that can restore her missing brain tissue. And indeed, one of the reasons Terri's PVS is different from other PVS and brain damage stories is that the damage is so extensive. It has almost entirely wiped out her neocortex. PVS is usually diagnosed based on external examinations: there are no specific clinical signs on brain scans that lead to PVS (the brain is so complex that it can be damaged in all sorts of different ways to lead to the same effect). But even a CT shows massive, just massive loss of brain tissue. No finer detail is needed to tell us what is going on here.
In Florida, feeding tubes are defined as artificial life support.
The Supreme Court has prevoiously affirmed that patients can refuse care, even when that refusal leads to death, and that their wishes can be carried out even while incapacitated if there clear and convincing evidence of their wishes. This is also consonant with most state laws, including Florida.
A court of law has ruled that there is such evidence. Appeals courts have repeatedly affirmed this decision, noting both that the standard should always be to err on the side of life, but that in this case, the evidence presented to the judge had MET THAT STANDARD. In addition, whatever you think of Michael Schiavo, he did not ultimately make the decision nor was his testimony the only thing that convinced the judge. Here is an appeals court commenting on that:
"We note that the guardianship court's original order expressly relied upon and found credible the testimony of witnesses other than Mr. Schiavo or the Schindlers. We recognize that Mrs. Schiavo's earlier oral statements were important evidence when deciding whether she would choose in February 2000 to withdraw life-prolonging procedures. See § 765.401(3), Fla. Stat. (2000); In re Guardianship of Browning, 568 So. 2d 4, 16. Nevertheless, the trial judge, acting as her proxy, also properly considered evidence of Mrs. Schiavo's values, personality, and her own decision-making process."
As to all the stuff being thrown around about Michael Schiavo, I suggest you really read the GAL report. It was prepared by an indepedant investigator appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush. It states that there can be little doubt that Michael is sincere, and dismisses the motives against him such as infidelity, abuse, and financial gain.
Just to deal with some of the issues that are being brought up a lot:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rather, when we look at this mans personal life, we see that he is engaged to another woman, with whom he has 2 kids. This is while being married to Terri - not the marks of a good husband.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read the GAL report, you'll note that the Schindlers, Terri's parents, convinced Michael that he had to move on with his life, and they encouraged him both to date other women, as well as bring those women by to see the family. The Schindlers and Schiavos used to be quite close until enmity over Terri's condition tore them apart.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also look for evidence in the people arround Terri - the nurses. Here is a link to an account from one of the nurses. It is on Rush Limbaughs site (so if your a right wing hater, you might not want to go there) - but it is a good read and gives insight into the character of the husband.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately, even if some of this stuff is true (and since much of it stands in direct contrast to the medical findings and repeated examinations by investigators, I don't think a lot of it IS true), it isn't very telling at all. All of it comes after the period in which Michael had resigned himself to the fact that Terri was gone, and that keeping her alive longer or treating her like she was alive and conscious was both against her wishes and degrading. Remember, it took Michael years to stop the practice of things like demanding that her makeup be done everyday, clothes changed, etc. It hardly seems fair that after he set these things aside as a false hope or illusion, these nurses should start doing it again. No wonder he was angry with them for trying to play God or manipulate Terri like a doll.
But finally, we have to realize that Michael is not the one making this decision. That role was given over to the courts, and the courts have consistently found that there is no reasonable argument as to Terri's rights being violated by allowing her to refuse care, and indeed, if anything, it's the other way around: denying that right for the past decade has been a violation of her rights.
There is no life insurance policy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and so far the husband has made over 300k off of terri. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it. As far as I can tell, Michael Schiavo has gone broke trying to fight litterally BILLIONS of dollars worth of right-wing groups pouring money into this case both in terms of paying for the Schindler's multi-million dollar legal team, as well as managing the media, lobbying Congress, and so on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The rest have to do with "how brain dead is she" - which doesn't have that much to do with the argument of weather or not she should live.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It most certainly does have a lot to do with it. People who can't even pronounce her name correctly are claiming, falsely, that she is awake, conscious, and talking!
The vast majority in this country would not wish to be maintained indefinately with no cognition and no hope of recovery. Terri is no different. This case is not about what the state believes about whether or not someone should live or die: it's about people being able to refuse care to maintain conditions past a certain threshold. The ONLY legal issue here are what Terri's wishes would have been.
<a href='http://www.soulsurvivors.net/Public/20-MAR-05__EF05C38_0003AAE3-2D4F-123E-84811014AC14F856.mp3' target='_blank'>The Audio</a>
This is telling, because you can infer two things from it: one is that Terri's father is sincere. He desperately wants to believe that Terri is actually responding to him. But all that's really going on is that he is unconsciously attempting to match the rhythm of her rising and falling moaning by speaking within the pauses. Because her moans aren't regular, it doesn't always work.
The other is that, if you are a layperson, you can see how it is possible to believe that Terri is still cognitively active. But these vocalizations do not, in fact, suggest that she is not in PVS. When enough of the higher brain dies, part of the functions that it loses are the ability to inhibit the motor cortex. That leaves the motor cortex to fend for itself, and the result are a lot of reflexive movements and vocalizations.
You might also find the audio very painful to listen to, as I certainly did.
The man has a point.
If all her higher brain functions are gone and her consciousness doesn't exist, then we're talking about a slab of proteins, not a person.
Of course, by prolonging this meat sack's lifespan, if you believe that the soul is tethered to the body in some indefinable way, you are deliberately preventing her from going to heaven, hell, purgatory, Detroit or wherever it is that you think people's magic mojo goes.
So the only thing that is really "suffering" if this state of affairs is true, is <b>Terri's immortal soul</b>.
You know who could help sort this mess out? That god guy everyone keeps raving about.
"I think God is dead."
"I think God is dead." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And then Nietzsche went bat**** insane, fell into a coma, and died.
Unless a majroity of you still can't spit out the bitter aftertaste of AvengerX's escapades, I think it's safe to say that "God bless you" can now be officially considered an insult on this forum. A doubleplus good to the fact that people feel the need to use caps lock their statements just to make a point. Yes, I do this myself, but I do my best throw my hissyfits in Off-Topic rather than here.
No wonder the mods don't even bother to touch this sorry excuse of a debate forum anymore unless faced with incessant prodding.
It also comes as no surprise that with this attitude, I have to deal with a worthless breed of zealous Xian haters who need to borrow second-rate Something Awful mob tactics to hurl pornography and Xian hate on our forums.
I'm sorry if the advertisement linking to our Xian forums provided by fellow members on this board are oh so caustic to your God weary eyes. If you find the links to hideously affront your sight, I can only make the suggestion of turning signatures off. I realize that in doing so, you're cut off from seeing the cool signatures that other people have, but I'm sure the trade-off will be worthwhile to some of you.
Feel free to drop by and berate my religious stupidity any time.
Worth noting is this neurologist based his diagnosis on observations (in person and on video) and never has examined her. There are also 30 other such affadavits filed by various doctors that seem to corelate with this one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, but remember you asked for it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless a majroity of you still can't spit out the bitter aftertaste of AvengerX's escapades, I think it's safe to say that "God bless you" can now be officially considered an insult on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would take it as such, yes. I don't know about others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A doubleplus good to the fact that people feel the need to use caps lock their statements just to make a point. Yes, I do this myself, but I do my best throw my hissyfits in Off-Topic rather than here.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But typically theres nothing worth getting annoyed about in off topic. Its a different story around here with every one trying to push agendas, party polotics, or religious viewpoints on eachother. Usually its just used to emphasize a point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No wonder the mods don't even bother to touch this sorry excuse of a debate forum anymore unless faced with incessant prodding.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is totally not the way to handle it. They should just get out the ban stick and start using it, that'd keep us in line. It used to in the old days, but sadly MonsE gone now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It also comes as no surprise that with this attitude, I have to deal with a worthless breed of zealous Xian haters who need to borrow second-rate Something Awful mob tactics to hurl pornography and Xian hate on our forums.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you taling about this forum? Because if you're not, then why should I care? And if you are, then WTH are you talking about?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry if the advertisement linking to our Xian forums provided by fellow members on this board are oh so caustic to your God weary eyes. If you find the links to hideously affront your sight, I can only make the suggestion of turning signatures off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to assume you're talking about FHF. And if thats the case, then who here is annoyed by the FHF link in people's sig? I'm not. I mean hell, if I wanted to I could just keep a link to a satanic forum (the old fasioned scary kind run by goths or something).
Seriously, what was the point of this post?
---
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The latest news has a prominent Jacksonville neurologist releasing an affadavit to Jeb Bush (Governor of Florida) stating that Terry Schiavo is not in a "persistent vegetative state" as described, but rather in a "minimally conscious state".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats complete ****. If you read the PDF apos posted then you realise that this has already been dealt with in a court of law and Terri has been deemed to be in a PVS by doctors who knew what they were talking about and provided non-anecdotal evidence for their diagnosis.
(BTW: If it sounds like I'm directing this at Depot specifically, I'm not)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Worth noting is this neurologist based his diagnosis on observations (in person and on video) and never has examined her. There are also 30 other such affadavits filed by various doctors that seem to corelate with this one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only 30? Whats the scope of this? Are they all neurologists? Are they all qualified to make such a diagnosis? If so, then I have lost all faith in the medical community. A blind man could see whats going on here.
This latest guy is the most credible of the bunch, but the phenomenon is still at the point of "you can round up a bunch of people who'll say anything" rather than "there is legitimate medical controversy over her state."
Even if she was MCS, there is little reason to think her wishes would be different, so the point would be moot.
Only 30? Whats the scope of this? Are they all neurologists? Are they all qualified to make such a diagnosis? If so, then I have lost all faith in the medical community. A blind man could see whats going on here. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course they're all qualified to make such a diagnosis, they filed affadavits.
A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point.
A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're referring, of course, to <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002' target='_blank'>this guy?</a>
Of course, the biggest talking point is that he's a <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009' target='_blank'>Nobel Peace Prize [sic] in Medicine Nominee</a>
I nominate Apos for the Nobel Peace Prize in medicine!
It's a wash, we both have an absurd nominee (no offense, Apos <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) arguing our side.
Tell you what, though-- I have a bet out there for any takers:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->She'll probably be able to communicate verbally over the course of about two years of treatment with medication. And then as far as being able to use her arms and use her legs, she'll be able to use those. This woman is not in a coma. She's not in PVS [persistent vegetative state]. She's not that bad.
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I will bet you <i>one thousand dollars</i> (American) that-- if her tube is not removed-- this will <i>not</i> happen.
Any takers? I'm <b>quite</b> serious. Put your money where your rhetoric is.
A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're referring, of course, to <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002' target='_blank'>this guy?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that's not him. This doctor is a renowned neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville.
A minimally conscious state differs significantly from a persistent vegetative state. It's hardly a moot point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're referring, of course, to <a href='http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002' target='_blank'>this guy?</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No that's not him. This doctor is a renowned neurologist at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Presumably he has a name?