Was The God Of The Old Testament "bad"?

WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
from the God/Bush thread.
QUOTE
QUOTE ((Wheeee @ Feb 14 2005 @  07:18 PM))

Really offtopic, but @Skulkbait - you do know that it was a common practice to offer human sacrifices in Canaan during the 2nd millenia BC, right?


Your point being?

QUOTE

No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.

For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter".


First of all, I don't do any of those things. Secondly yes, because I would never order the slaughter of women and children I consider myself to be better then the OT version of God.

QUOTE

So you set up God as a straw man (not understanding the situation completely) and proceed to tear down said straw man. You admit that you havent read it, or even tried to understand it - why? Because you apparently found your own religous leanings without the OT.


Maybe you didn't read my posts. I have read parts of the OT, back before I became an apatheist. I decided that I could never serve a God who would do the things the OT God did. By the way, you haven't yet even presented me with a reason as to how God commanding mass slaughters could be "good".


QUOTE

A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons.


Alright, if you're going that route then explain to me why God doesn't smite all evil? Why didn't he smite hitler, but did smite all those people in the OT? Why didn't God just keep his nose out of human affairs like that then as he does now?

QUOTE

Now, I'm not trying to slight you - I am a sinner and deserving of death. That is why Jesus is there. However, Jesus is the same God saving me - as God was saving Israel. They are one and the same. The only difference is that God of OT emphasized Law, Jesus of NT emphasizes Grace.


Riddle me this: you admit that Jesus and the OT God are different. How is it that your "perfect" God is so inconsistant?


More on topic: Why does bush think that he needs to do God's will? God's a big boy, surely he can do his own flipping will. I mean he did in the OT after all right?


My point was that human sacrifice is one of the many things that God found unacceptable in the world at that point. So he commanded the Israelites to totally eradicate all traces that they ever existed. It is an interesting OT concept that the very soil on which sins were committed by men was made unclean and defiled. God didn't want His people to be affected by evil practices such as human sacrifice. That's a pretty good reason, I think.

God isn't inconsistent between both testaments. Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT covenant with Abraham and later on with Moses through Jacob. If you want me to elaborate on this, I can.

About your other point - why doesn't God smite all evil.
This is an interesting formulation of "the problem of evil." I'm pretty sure I answered this one already, but let's see. He did smite all evil, remember the flood, and the covenant with Noah? You would have known this if you had read the OT too. He smote Sodom and Gomorrah. God used Israel to smite the Canaanites. What do you mean "why doesn't God smite all evil"? You seem to forget that it's coming.
Also, where is the basis for this claim that "God keeps his nose out of our business"? He's never done that. If you mean why he doesn't perform magic tricks for your entertainment, heh. That's a different matter.
QUOTE (EEK)
Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
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Comments

  • LegionnairedLegionnaired Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation Posts: 3,260
    QUOTE
    This is an interesting formulation of "the problem of evil." I'm pretty sure I answered this one already, but let's see. He did smite all evil, remember the flood, and the covenant with Noah? You would have known this if you had read the OT too. He smote Sodom and Gomorrah. God used Israel to smite the Canaanites. What do you mean "why doesn't God smite all evil"? You seem to forget that it's coming.
    Also, where is the basis for this claim that "God keeps his nose out of our business"? He's never done that. If you mean why he doesn't perform magic tricks for your entertainment, heh. That's a different matter.


    You miss a few points here. For one thing, smiting all evil would include killing Noah himself, and Noah's family. Noah, however, was saved through his faith in God. Even after 100 years of preaching, noone else gave a rat's ****.

    I think I addressed these points better in my post, but if you want to have a go at it too then whatever.
    In the end, science does not provide us the answers most of us require.[...]To the question, "How did it all begin?", science answers, "Probably by accident." To the question "How will it end?" science answers, "Probably by accident." To many people, the accidental life is not worth living.
  • UltimaGeckoUltimaGecko hates endnotes Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16320Members Posts: 2,467
    Old Testament God is the 'jealous God' (written at a time when Monotheistic practices would have trouble taking hold with people worshipping anything besides 'God'), that's why he's more 'evil' than thew New Testament 'turn the other cheek' God. I'm fairly sure there's some "Jesus basically absolves your sins, so you don't need Gods interaction anymore" type stuff in the New Testament.


    Anyway, I'm a bit more concerned with the land Israel, since it's supposed to be the promised land and everything, yet they get the crap beaten out of them by just about everyone who raids around Palestine (at least conquered). I'd say he's 'bad' because he can't protect his followers tounge.gif (heck, they even lost the ark of the covenent - I'd say that's a pretty good sign God's not helping much).
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  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    edited February 2005
    Yeah, sorry Legionnaired. Nobody else seemed to want to make this topic and I was tired of seeing the other thread get relentlessly dragged off kicking and screaming, mainly by me and skulkbait tounge.gif If it makes you feel better, I can copy-paste your poste to here tounge.gif.

    @ultimagecko - God didn't "allow" His people to get conquered for nothing. He used the other nations to conquer them because they had gone off and adopted a lot of the evil practices of the Canaanites, and had pretty much started to ignore God except in a superficial manner - which pretty much meant that they weren't holding up their end of the bargain. As to the "God in the OT is a jealous God" - you're right, but He's still jealous in the NT. That's what the judgment will be about.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • AvengerXAvengerX Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27459Banned Posts: 1,675
    God is perfect. he is all knowing, he COULD do everything the way it SHOULD be done, but then it wouldn't be a growing expierence for us.

    its like when job was temted by the devil. the lord already knew what was going to happen . but he let it happen because it made Job stronger and a better person. thats why the same things go on in our lives today.
    (\_/)
    (='.'=)


    NS rocks
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    People also seem to forget that Job got everything he lost back, twofold.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members Posts: 1,795
    QUOTE
    Was The God Of The Old Testament "bad"?

    Frankly, I think that any God that would make Abraham sacrifice his son is an ****.

    It sounds more like something Satan would do to tempt humans into sin:

    "Hey, Abraham, it's God! You've got to prove your love to me by sacrificing your only son. I let you have a son, after making you wait for so long, so you've got to show that you love me and will do what I say.

    (Abraham starts to sacrifice his son)

    "Woah, hold up Abraham, only kidding."

    Does that sound like the work of a "good" or a "bad" entity? Putting someone through such an awful experience (either kill your son or reject God) sounds like something a bad person would do.
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  • AvengerXAvengerX Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27459Banned Posts: 1,675
    exactly , because he endured to the end

    sometimes we don't regain all our blessings in this life but have to wait for salvation in the next to be payed back and rewarded for the fruits of our labor
    (\_/)
    (='.'=)


    NS rocks
  • SkulkBaitSkulkBait Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13423Members Posts: 2,543
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 12:25 AM)
    My point was that human sacrifice is one of the many things that God found unacceptable in the world at that point. So he commanded the Israelites to totally eradicate all traces that they ever existed. It is an interesting OT concept that the very soil on which sins were committed by men was made unclean and defiled. God didn't want His people to be affected by evil practices such as human sacrifice. That's a pretty good reason, I think.

    So let me get this straight. They were sacrificing humans and having a good time with it, and God suddenly decided "OMG! Only I get to kill people! Go! Slaughter their women and children and rip babies from their wombs, they are unclean sinners the lot of them!"

    That doesn't sit right with me at all. God should lead by example, if he doesn't want his people killing eachother then he shouldn't kill people or order the slaughter of people. Jesus never did and he got his message accrossed just fine.

    QUOTE

    God isn't inconsistent between both testaments. Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT covenant with Abraham and later on with Moses through Jacob. If you want me to elaborate on this, I can.

    What I'd ike you to try and explain is how God can be a murderous bastard for 3000 years and suddenly become a hippy.

    QUOTE
    About your other point - why doesn't God smite all evil.
    This is an interesting formulation of "the problem of evil." I'm pretty sure I answered this one already, but let's see. He did smite all evil, remember the flood, and the covenant with Noah? You would have known this if you had read the OT too. He smote Sodom and Gomorrah. God used Israel to smite the Canaanites. What do you mean "why doesn't God smite all evil"? You seem to forget that it's coming.
    Also, where is the basis for this claim that "God keeps his nose out of our business"? He's never done that. If you mean why he doesn't perform magic tricks for your entertainment, heh. That's a different matter.

    Thats my point. He used to do all those things, and now he doesn't and your excuse is "its coming". When? Judgement day? If thats the case then why did he have to do all that smiting in the past when he could just get them on judgement day too?


    QUOTE
    I'd say he's 'bad' because he can't protect his followers

    Funny you should say that, I was reading a few pages out of John Stewart's America, the Book and there was this timeline. My favorite entry goes something like "xxxBC, God hands down the 10 commandments marking the jews as his chosen people. Nothing bad ever happens to jews again"


    QUOTE
    As to the "God in the OT is a jealous God" - you're right, but He's still jealous in the NT. That's what the judgment will be about.

    Funny you say that, considering Jelousy is one of the "Seven deadly sins". But hey, God is perfect so he gets to be jelous and kill people and lay with his neighbors wife or whatever he wants because he can't be bad by definition!

    QUOTE
    People also seem to forget that Job got everything he lost back, twofold.

    And all it cost him were 10 of his children. Good deal.
    1.04ever
  • AvengerXAvengerX Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27459Banned Posts: 1,675
    you seem to be caught up on the whole killing people bit

    in the second coming at the battle of armagedden its prophicised that the collition agaisnt the jews (an army of over 20 million or something I can't remember off the top of my head) is gonna go to kill the jews, then jesus is going to come back and kill them all.

    not that you'd care about any of that, you mock all the rightouses beliefs
    (\_/)
    (='.'=)


    NS rocks
  • SkulkBaitSkulkBait Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13423Members Posts: 2,543
    I'm doing Legion the favor of posting my response from the other thread. Hopefully this will end the derailing there.

    QUOTE (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2005, 12:42 AM)
    QUOTE
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 14 2005, 07:18 PM)
    Really offtopic, but @Skulkbait - you do know that it was a common practice to offer human sacrifices in Canaan during the 2nd millenia BC, right?

    Your point being?

    QUOTE
    No, I am trying to tell you that you pre-judged the OT - based on your limited knowledge of its contents, and its purpouse; ignoring its context, and a desire to show God as evil so as to rectify your own moral decisions.

    For instance, this supposed unwarented "slaughter". You are better than God because you would never do that - yeay... That means you can sleep with your gf, do drugs, be an alcoholic, and not bother to know your maker - all because you are opposed to "slaughter".

    First of all, I don't do any of those things. Secondly yes, because I would never order the slaughter of women and children I consider myself to be better then the OT version of God.


    This might help you understand things contextually a bit more.


    I really don't feel like reading any long winded religious **** right now. If you don't want to summerize it, then don't bother posting it because it is off topic anyway.

    QUOTE

    QUOTE

    QUOTE
    A better question to ask would be "is it right to assassinate Hitler?" - Should God smite hitler? If the answer is yes, then God has every right to smite the nations around israel - for the exact same reasons.

    Alright, if you're going that route then explain to me why God doesn't smite all evil? Why didn't he smite hitler, but did smite all those people in the OT? Why didn't God just keep his nose out of human affairs like that then as he does now?


    Well, first of all, I'd argue that he does not, in fact, refrain from interfering in human affairs. (Evidenced by the fulfilled prophecy in the reformation of the Jewish state in the holy land.)

    Also, to what level should God smite evil?

    I don't know, God isn't consistent at all about who gets smote and who don't. If I were God I wouldn't smote anybody, but then again I wouldn't have created this miserable lot in the first place.

    QUOTE
    Murder? Rape? Theft? Jaywalking? The fact is, that if God were to smite all evil, (Which, BTW, is promised.) then many people who God knows would have come to repentance given some time would perish. "God is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness." If God were to not tolerate evil at all in the first place, then there would be no free will, and we would be robots. Love is meaningless unless it is given the choice to hate.

    So why did he do it in the OT? Why is he so inconsistent about it?


    QUOTE
    killing women and children is kinda sad looking in the short view, but in eternal vision it sorta makes sense.

    ....? How so? Besides, are you telling me that wronging the few for the sake of the many is always good? I would argue that that is often not the case at all.

    It is my opinion that no "perfect" God should have any need to kill anybody. Besides which, no one has yet answered my question about why God changed his mind about all the smiting and genocide orders and sent Jesus to go all hippy-love-and-peace on the world. Why is this "perfect" deity so inconcsistent?
    1.04ever
  • AegeriAegeri Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members Posts: 1,150
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (AvengerX @ Feb 15 2005, 01:51 AM)
    you seem to be caught up on the whole killing people bit

    I imagine so, it's still hard to try and realise why the OT is so 'different' from the NT, but when you take it in it's proper context that its designed to be 'smiting' the other aggressive polytheistic religions it would have found itself around it makes sense. Nothing like a bit of fire and brimstone to put other religions in their place.

    QUOTE

    in the second coming at the battle of armagedden its prophicised that the collition agaisnt the jews (an army of over 20 million or something I can't remember off the top of my head) is gonna go to kill the jews, then jesus is going to come back and kill them all.


    I doubt it.

    What exactly is the remaining 5,980,000 (Minus those that are Jewish) doing anyway? I think this isn't really very credible as an idea. Of course, when this 'battle' occurs will be quite a riot I'm sure, because they thought it would be in the year 1000 (you know, the End is Nigh people), 1100, 1200 etc basically every century for a long time. Look at that, the world is still here!

    Of course, if you take revelations in its proper context you begin to realise that it predicts the (eventual) victory of Christianity over the Romans such as Emperor Nero who were attempting to stamp them out.

    QUOTE
    not that you'd care about any of that, you mock all the rightouses beliefs


    That's true, and claiming what is essentially a prophecy to boost morale among Christians who were getting slaughtered by the Romans (Revelations) as a 'fact' that is going to occur probably won't convince him any further.

    Skulkbait:

    QUOTE
    It is my opinion that no "perfect" God should have any need to kill anybody.


    But the fact is, we're talking about a God who has to defend his people from other religions that are pretty damn aggressive themselves. If God didn't order his people to take up arms against the other religions, they would have been destroyed themselves by their enemies. There isn't such a thing as 'turning the other cheek' when your neighbours are out to massacre you first.

    Again, consider the context that the OT is written in and who it is for. A new monotheistic religion isn't going to last long without some way of whipping out troops and it's populace into defending itself and destroying the other polytheistic religions around it. God isn't about violence or hate, but he isn't stupid and would see that his people need to be able to know they can defend themselves with his blessing.

    If they hadn't defended themselves by killing the other nations/religions around them initially, they would have been destroyed themselves. That's not a very good result if you think about it.

    QUOTE
    Besides which, no one has yet answered my question about why God changed his mind about all the smiting and genocide orders and sent Jesus to go all hippy-love-and-peace on the world. Why is this "perfect" deity so inconcsistent?


    Because of the time period he finds himself in. When you first start your nation, religion or idea, it's at its most vulnerable. Those who follow and believe in it kind of need to live so that it can spread. If you lose those starting inviduals you lose everything, especially when a God is concerned. Once you have a position where you have secured your peoples place in the world (and importantly, security from other religions/hostile nations) you can change your strategy somewhat, especially when conversion by the sword is just going to lead to pointless wars of attrition (see the Crusades for a model example of why God seems to have changed his mind, when in reality it's just common sense).
    QUOTE
    “I’ve not read it word for word myself,” confessed board member Kathy Martin in an ill-fated attempt to salvage the credibility of the witnesses.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (SkulkBait @ Feb 15 2005, 01:49 AM)
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 12:25 AM)
    My point was that human sacrifice is one of the many things that God found unacceptable in the world at that point. So he commanded the Israelites to totally eradicate all traces that they ever existed. It is an interesting OT concept that the very soil on which sins were committed by men was made unclean and defiled. God didn't want His people to be affected by evil practices such as human sacrifice. That's a pretty good reason, I think.

    So let me get this straight. They were sacrificing humans and having a good time with it, and God suddenly decided "OMG! Only I get to kill people! Go! Slaughter their women and children and rip babies from their wombs, they are unclean sinners the lot of them!"

    That doesn't sit right with me at all. God should lead by example, if he doesn't want his people killing eachother then he shouldn't kill people or order the slaughter of people. Jesus never did and he got his message accrossed just fine.

    QUOTE

    God isn't inconsistent between both testaments. Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT covenant with Abraham and later on with Moses through Jacob. If you want me to elaborate on this, I can.

    What I'd ike you to try and explain is how God can be a murderous bastard for 3000 years and suddenly become a hippy.

    QUOTE
    About your other point - why doesn't God smite all evil.
    This is an interesting formulation of "the problem of evil." I'm pretty sure I answered this one already, but let's see. He did smite all evil, remember the flood, and the covenant with Noah? You would have known this if you had read the OT too. He smote Sodom and Gomorrah. God used Israel to smite the Canaanites. What do you mean "why doesn't God smite all evil"? You seem to forget that it's coming.
    Also, where is the basis for this claim that "God keeps his nose out of our business"? He's never done that. If you mean why he doesn't perform magic tricks for your entertainment, heh. That's a different matter.

    Thats my point. He used to do all those things, and now he doesn't and your excuse is "its coming". When? Judgement day? If thats the case then why did he have to do all that smiting in the past when he could just get them on judgement day too?


    QUOTE
    I'd say he's 'bad' because he can't protect his followers

    Funny you should say that, I was reading a few pages out of John Stewart's America, the Book and there was this timeline. My favorite entry goes something like "xxxBC, God hands down the 10 commandments marking the jews as his chosen people. Nothing bad ever happens to jews again"


    QUOTE
    As to the "God in the OT is a jealous God" - you're right, but He's still jealous in the NT. That's what the judgment will be about.

    Funny you say that, considering Jelousy is one of the "Seven deadly sins". But hey, God is perfect so he gets to be jelous and kill people and lay with his neighbors wife or whatever he wants because he can't be bad by definition!

    QUOTE
    People also seem to forget that Job got everything he lost back, twofold.

    And all it cost him were 10 of his children. Good deal.

    Your whole post smacks of being an impatient person.

    God is not impatient. That was the whole reason he sent the prophets to Israel, saying "repent" *edit* before breaking out the yardstick to royally spank them.

    Now about these people that were happily sacrificing other people to their gods...erm, ok. If that's how you want to put it, go ahead.

    Second of all, why did God stop smiting people? Because the Mosaic covenant was fulfilled. The agreement was "if you follow all of my commands and obey me, I'll make you guys completely awesome. If not, I'm going to school you."

    Also, God leading by example by not killing people? WTH? You've got it wrong buddy. God kills because he has the right to. We don't because we're the creation, and killing each other is like telling God "sod off, we don't care if you created this person, I'm gonna assert authority that I don't have to kill him because of (reason)."

    Calling God a murderous bastard doesn't help your claim at all. It just shows how you really mispercieve God as someone who is on the level of human beings, and therefore somehow obligated to "leave us alone."

    God being jealous is not a sin. Again, you're applying human standards to God's perfection. God is jealous because He created us, and if we don't follow Him eventually we die, since He after all is the source of our life. Therefore if He's not jealous, that would make Him an uncaring and cruel God.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • FilthyLarryFilthyLarry Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20423Members Posts: 337
    Ah yes, the old testament.

    Well Yahweh certainly made life hell (pun intended) for a lot of poor slobs back then didn't he? Flooding to "cleanse" the world in a true Nazi-ish style act.

    The fundamental problem with this topic is unfortunately that "bad" is relative. The fundamentalists here have no problem with God smiting/slaughtering doing whatever takes his fancy.

    The others generally tend to view mass killing of humans as a bad thing...can't imagine why eh ?
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    Heh, I view mass killings of humans as an evil thing too, if it's done by humans. I don't think you'd say that a comet is "evil" if it struck the earth and wiped out half of the human population, would you?
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members Posts: 1,795
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:13 AM)
    Heh, I view mass killings of humans as an evil thing too, if it's done by humans. I don't think you'd say that a comet is "evil" if it struck the earth and wiped out half of the human population, would you?

    Why do you have a double standard?

    Why can't you hold God to the same moral standards as humans?

    BTW, a comet is different than God. A comet is a random act of nature, unless it was actually sent by god/aliens/some other intelligent being.
    user posted image - Avenger X
    I'll miss you.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    There is no double standard. God created us, He can do whatever He wants to us. Which means that if He were a cruel god, we'd be pretty ****. Good thing He's not.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • FilthyLarryFilthyLarry Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20423Members Posts: 337
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:13 AM)
    Heh, I view mass killings of humans as an evil thing too, if it's done by humans. I don't think you'd say that a comet is "evil" if it struck the earth and wiped out half of the human population, would you?

    Doesn't that make you a traitor to your own kind though? Seriously, you would do the bidding of those egyptian-alien wannabes on Star-Gate confused-fix.gif

    A comet doesn't have a choice in what it does. I would still say that it was a disaster for mankind. At any rate, God does have options no?
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    QUOTE (FilthyLarry @ Feb 15 2005, 02:18 AM)
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:13 AM)
    Heh, I view mass killings of humans as an evil thing too, if it's done by humans. I don't think you'd say that a comet is "evil" if it struck the earth and wiped out half of the human population, would you?

    Doesn't that make you a traitor to your own kind though? Seriously, you would do the bidding of those egyptian-alien wannabes on Star-Gate confused-fix.gif

    A comet doesn't have a choice in what it does. I would still say that it was a disaster for mankind. At any rate, God does have options no?

    Not really. If those egyptian alien-things did exist, they'd be created just like we are. Which gives them no more right to kill us than we do.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members Posts: 1,795
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:18 AM)
    God created us, He can do whatever He wants to us.

    Why? That doesn't give him the right to do anything to us. God doesn't have any moral right to screw around with us, just because he created us.

    On a related note, just because God exists and he created us, doesn't mean we have to worship him.
    user posted image - Avenger X
    I'll miss you.
  • FilthyLarryFilthyLarry Join Date: 2003-08-31 Member: 20423Members Posts: 337
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:20 AM)
    QUOTE (FilthyLarry @ Feb 15 2005, 02:18 AM)
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:13 AM)
    Heh, I view mass killings of humans as an evil thing too, if it's done by humans. I don't think you'd say that a comet is "evil" if it struck the earth and wiped out half of the human population, would you?

    Doesn't that make you a traitor to your own kind though? Seriously, you would do the bidding of those egyptian-alien wannabes on Star-Gate confused-fix.gif

    A comet doesn't have a choice in what it does. I would still say that it was a disaster for mankind. At any rate, God does have options no?

    Not really. If those egyptian alien-things did exist, they'd be created just like we are. Which gives them no more right to kill us than we do.

    What if those aliens cloned human beings? Does the act of creation imply no moral oversight to the created?

    Also God's interests and the interests of the Human Race are not necessarily one and the same. Yet you would put God above us all, even if God decided that he was tired of the whole deal and wiped us all out for good.
  • SkulkBaitSkulkBait Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13423Members Posts: 2,543
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:08 AM)
    Second of all, why did God stop smiting people? Because the Mosaic covenant was fulfilled. The agreement was "if you follow all of my commands and obey me, I'll make you guys completely awesome. If not, I'm going to school you."

    So.... why did he have this agreement then, and now has a completely different agreement which doesn't involve murdering anybody?

    QUOTE

    Also, God leading by example by not killing people? WTH? You've got it wrong buddy. God kills because he has the right to.

    This is where you and I fundamentally differ. You believe that humans are objects, God's little toys that he can break at will. I believe that since God created living breathing beings he has no right to kill them, as a mother has no right to kill her child. You do think that abortion is wrong, no?

    QUOTE
    We don't because we're the creation, and killing each other is like telling God "sod off, we don't care if you created this person, I'm gonna assert authority that I don't have to kill him because of (reason)."

    Frankly I rather like people who tell God to sod off. They at least have some flipping balls, an omnipotent being on the otherhand doesn't need any balls because he has nothing to fear.

    QUOTE
    Calling God a murderous bastard doesn't help your claim at all. It just shows how you really mispercieve God as someone who is on the level of human beings, and therefore somehow obligated to "leave us alone."

    Forgive me if I don't think of myslef as someone elses flipping posession. I may not have alot of self esteem but even I ain't that low. I think that since God "made us in his image" he has the responsibility to treat us with a little flipping dignity, not smash us like little toys when he is in a bad mood.

    QUOTE
    God being jealous is not a sin. Again, you're applying human standards to God's perfection.

    Yeah, knew you would play the "perfect" card there again. If we are to assume that God is perfect then all my arguments are fundamentally flawed. However, I see no reason whatsoever that God has to be perfect at all. Besides which I find being a hypocrite to be damned imperfect.

    QUOTE
    God is jealous because He created us, and if we don't follow Him eventually we die, since He after all is the source of our life. Therefore if He's not jealous, that would make Him an uncaring and cruel God.

    As oposed to the caring and merciful God that FLIPPING ORDERS THE SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT PEOPLE?


    QUOTE
    Heh, I view mass killings of humans as an evil thing too, if it's done by humans. I don't think you'd say that a comet is "evil" if it struck the earth and wiped out half of the human population, would you?

    What an idiotic statement. A comet doesn't have any mind, it can't control its actions and even if it could it probably wouldn't even know we were here to begin with. God doesn't have these excuses.
    1.04ever
  • AegeriAegeri Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members Posts: 1,150
    QUOTE
    At any rate, God does have options no?


    I guess so, but ultimately God doesn't directly interfere with the lives of men as the general rule goes. A huge flood wrecks a large part of a continent, an asteroid from space hits and kills millions (more likely billions), but this isn't willed or decided upon by God. All that will matter is how people act and attempt to aid those who survived and reconcile those who lost loved ones and the like. It is in doing things like aiding people in need that I take the most weight from the bible (Teachings of Jesus pretty much), not stories of wiping mankind clean off the planet and such forth (Which while related to a real flood that happened, certainly had nothing to do with a world wide flood to cleanse the world of life).
    QUOTE
    “I’ve not read it word for word myself,” confessed board member Kathy Martin in an ill-fated attempt to salvage the credibility of the witnesses.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    edited February 2005
    Eh? Why wouldn't he have the right?

    @skulkbait - they weren't innocent people.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • SkulkBaitSkulkBait Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13423Members Posts: 2,543
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:25 AM)
    @skulkbait - they weren't innocent people.

    Well sure, by the christian definition no human is innocent so I guess they wouldn't be. Fine, if you like you can replace "innocent" with "defenseless women and children"
    1.04ever
  • theclamtheclam Join Date: 2004-08-01 Member: 30290Members Posts: 1,795
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:25 AM)
    Eh? Why wouldn't he have the right?
    Do you have the right to kill your children? After all, you created them.
    QUOTE
    @skulkbait - they weren't innocent people.
    Innocence is relative, by the way. Just because they don't live up to God's standard of innocence doesn't mean that they aren't innocent. Plus, I thought he believe in redemption.
    user posted image - Avenger X
    I'll miss you.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    edited February 2005
    Alright, gimme a sec here.

    You say that you aren't anyone's possession.

    Are you your own possession?


    @theclam: aha! But you remember that when God smote people, they were already sinning all over the place. And remember that He didn't smite the "righteous people." Abraham begged for Sodom, and remember what God said? He said that if He found 10 people who weren't totally corrupt and depraved and utterly angering to God, he would spare the town. Guess what happened there?

    God didn't just randomly smite people. He waited until He was sure that almost no one even gave a crap about following Him. And He would always save a few who were still following Him.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • SkulkBaitSkulkBait Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13423Members Posts: 2,543
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 02:29 AM)
    Plus, I thought he believe in redemption.

    Only on alternate thursdays in years that are a multiple of 3.

    QUOTE
    Are you your own possession?

    I don't think the word can even be applied that way. It looses all meaning in that context, just like that silly "slave to yourself" comment so many moons ago.
    1.04ever
  • AegeriAegeri Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13486Members Posts: 1,150
    QUOTE (SkulkBait @ Feb 15 2005, 02:28 AM)
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:25 AM)
    @skulkbait - they weren't innocent people.

    Well sure, by the christian definition no human is innocent so I guess they wouldn't be. Fine, if you like you can replace "innocent" with "defenseless women and children"

    While I find it difficult myself to reconcile why God told his people to kill everyone, I can understand that by wiping out all of a people (yes, genocide is the word I guess) he guarantees his peoples future safety, which I'm sure he would have seen would be compromised by leaving individuals behind. Remember that Children will inevitably grow into adults, and those adults will be more hateful and bitter than those that came before them, and hence even more of a threat- Things will be personal.
    QUOTE
    “I’ve not read it word for word myself,” confessed board member Kathy Martin in an ill-fated attempt to salvage the credibility of the witnesses.
  • SkulkBaitSkulkBait Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13423Members Posts: 2,543
    edited February 2005
    QUOTE (Aegeri @ Feb 15 2005, 02:31 AM)
    QUOTE (SkulkBait @ Feb 15 2005, 02:28 AM)
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Feb 15 2005, 02:25 AM)
    @skulkbait - they weren't innocent people.

    Well sure, by the christian definition no human is innocent so I guess they wouldn't be. Fine, if you like you can replace "innocent" with "defenseless women and children"

    While I find it difficult myself to reconcile why God told his people to kill everyone, I can understand that by wiping out all of a people (yes, genocide is the word I guess) he guarantees his peoples future safety, which I'm sure he would have seen would be compromised by leaving individuals behind. Remember that Children will inevitably grow into adults, and those adults will be more hateful and bitter than those that came before them, and hence even more of a threat- Things will be personal.

    But why does he have an interest in protecting his people then, but not now? And weren't the people he killed also his children? Yet he, like a parent who favors one child over the other, decided that the israelites were worthy and cannonites were not. How can a perfect God, who loves all his children, choose between them so readily?
    1.04ever
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,262 Fully active user
    Aegeri, you hit the nail on the head. God said that even the land was defiled by the sin of humanity, and the Israelites were to kill *everyone*, even the livestock, and burn everything, even the inanimate objects like jewelry, etc. for that specific reason.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
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