What Needs To Happen

Emanon · November 2004

All I know is that I dont script but I wont go to one that blocks them anyway just because competition is very low at those servers.

Only way you get better, quicker, is by playing players better than you and studing, watch and learning. While other people scorn these better players I tend to feed off the challenge.

People that cry about how good other people are and blame it on scripts/hacks are removed from our servers.

Sky · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> *i know that comparison is stupid... </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We all know there's a difference between aimbotting/wallhacking and bunnyhopping, but if we let scripts to be used and people just argue the hacks are only computer assistance, then we have very little options left.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> i apologize if my explaination wasn't very clear, but what i was pointing out with this is that pubs, especiallly one as large as g4b2s, get some pretty lame hackers and jerkoffs who HAVE tried to skew our rules so that it looks legal. </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>consider us leaving mp_bs to 1 as covering our bases.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> let me rephrase that if it isn't quite clear. we are leaving mp_bs set at 1 because we wish to cover all our bases and at the same time slow down any new exploits that might come forth.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Note to you: don't take this personally. You don't know me, I don't know you, so none of this can be personal.
How <u>I</u> see that paragraph is, "Well, we never really know when an aimbotter or speedhacker will come on the server, nor do we know how to distinguish hacks from scripts. But instead of telling our admins to evaluate each individual case like good admins should, we just tell them to block scripts, because then we KNOW that anyone who is doing something we don't think is possible has to be hacking, and we can ban him accordingly."

That's all I see there. Since scripting isn't an exploit, and by your argument you're trying to delay the spread of exploits to your server, the only reason the two should be related is if you are trying to remove scripts from the picture so you KNOW that everything else has to be an exploit. Removing something that's harmless so you can spot something that's harmful? Not a good policy, IMO.

Church · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (..tim.. @ Nov 10 2004, 08:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well, it seems that the original intent of this thread has vanished, so let me side track it a little. What I am about to say is a geniune question, not a bash in anyone's general direction.

I play the game as originally inteded. No scripts, no bhopping. I feel if scripts were fully supported by the game, then the dev's should have included them in the game already written, and ready to be bound (just my opinion, get over it). As well as bhopping. No matter how you slice it, this is an exploit of the engine, that the dev team has chosen not to change (i think b/c of the potential backlash of the competitive community).

I love NS. I'm not the best aim, I don't bhop, and I don't use scripts, thus my chances of going into the competitive arena a slim to none. But I feel that a good NS Player should be able to get on any vanilla computer with an NS config, adjust existing button configurations, and play. I know some clanners that can do that, even though they use bhop or scripts, and I commend them. But what about me? I have certian principles about the game design that I won't cross. I know how to bhop, I've even played around with it and do it decently. But I'm not going to give myself the advantage that any NSPlayer doesn't have. Why? B/c i want the other guy to have fun as much as I do. It bothers me that most/all of PT's can bhop, and that the game is balanced for it. It sincerely disturbs me. This competitive mentality of balancing has almost gotten me to the point of wanting to leave NS, b/c each release is going to be more and more customized to competitive play, requiring more and more people to learn "allowable exploits" such as bhop in order to keep up, leaving new NSPlayers still much farther behind, with yet another learning curve.

IN a nutshell, what do you expect for people in my situation to do? I can't go competitive, b/c if I don't learn to abuse knock back with strafe jumping, or learn how to jump in such a way that I go the same speed backward as I do forward, of bunnyhop, there is NO good clan community that will even talk to me. Doesn't matter how well I comm, or how team oriented I am. And the devs sits quietly, playtesting a game I feel I no longer have any input on, b/c the competitive minded PT's don't really care about ppl who don't play the way they do. So, Zunni, Flayra, what about us. Forlorn, Nadagast, before you tell me how stupid my "philosophies" are and that I need to change or just leave the community, I've been here since way before the beginning, and TBH, that is the community we always said we never wanted in NS.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
(This post is NOT meant to insult/flame anyone/any community. If my style of writing in this post is offensive in some way, I apologize)

Flayra has already stated official that Bhopping is a part of NS and will stay. Exploit of the physics engine or not, Flayra wants it in the game to add another level of skill.

Let's take an example from CS. I know quite a few servers have a "no AWPS" rule. In theory it is to help out newbies (because, let;s face it...AWPS utterly destroy newbies) and disallowing their use makes it somewhat easier for the newbies. But guess what? Those servers are known to be newb servers pretty much.

Now, I have no problems having some servers that say, "Ok, this is a server to get newbies comfortable with the game. Please go easy on newbies if you are not one (i.e, don't bhop, strafe jump, etc)" but for the rest of us who have gotten somewhat past the complete newb level, we don't want to have that kind of philosophy crammed down our throats! I'm not saying you are personally, and you're free to play how you want of course, but I feel that if a community is going to ban things that are officially part of the game, then they should at least label themselves as a "training server" and then help newbies out so then they can graduate onto a more (dare I say it) competitive/cutthroat style of playing. Either that, or clearly label your server to say something like, "This is our own vision of NS, and not the official one, so if our rules are strange and different from a lot of other servers, then please remember we are essentially trying to play a different (but similar in concept) game than the official NS.

Flayra has his own vision of NS (and part of that vision does include the competitive scene) and if his vision isn't the way you want NS to be, can you really expect him to support you? Since it IS his game, if you have a different vision of NS, you can label it clearly on your community, or you can go program your own mod where it is absolutely impossible to do these exploits and and make it so the level of newb-friendliness is to your liking.

taft · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj` @ Nov 10 2004, 06:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 05:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What you're saying is this: You don't need 3jump in order to bhop.
The Reality is this: Without 3jump/mousewheel, it is impossible to keep a constant bhop. Nadagast is one of the best bhoppers in the competitive community, and he can't keep bhop maxed out with just +jump. If he's one of the best and can't do it, do you think anyone else can? It's the way the HL engine deals with jumping, it makes it difficult to impossible to do it without some type of jump-timing aid. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
then has it occured that maybe it just shouldn't be used? if it can't be done by a human, then leave it. you say the script is "only computer assisted jumping." but then it leads to, "its only computer assisted aiming." "it's only computer assisted sight." We all know there's a difference between aimbotting/wallhacking and bunnyhopping, but if we let scripts to be used and people just argue the hacks are only computer assistance, then we have very little options left. consider us leaving mp_bs to 1 as covering our bases. i know that i can pull off a slight speed increase without scripts and i'm happy with that. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
What I'm saying is that it's possible to bhop without a 3jump, BUT it still requires an alternate, non-regular button setup to do so (The mousewheel or some type of turbo button - discount macros, that's beyond our scope). Aliens are indeed balanced around bhopping, thus it should be possible for any alien that learns how to bhop to be allowed to do so. It requires some type of jump-spamming ability because that's a technicality of the game engine that other Quake-based games do not have, it's particular to HL itself. If you accept bhop is part of the game and is balanced into it for the alien team, then you also accept that you must allow people to do it and have the means to do it. bs 1 prevents one way of bhopping. There are other ways but for people that use 3jump (or must, some people don't have a mousewheel), you are preventing them using something that is a convenience to them. I guess I should run a server and rebind people's keys as they join to match my config because I know it's the safe way to make sure everyone plays with the same setup. Sounds good in theory, right? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad-fix.gif' />

Also, never compare scripts to aimbotting even remotely. I will break out the logical fallacies links if it's used again, because it's preposterous to compare the two in any way.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
i'd like to point out that having a key that spams jumps is not a requirement at all to bunnyhop in NS.. i've played since 1.04 with a mostly default config and it has served me well (bind spacebar +jump)

myself and other competitive players (mostly euros) I have talked to do not script, use mousewheel, or spamming techniques of any sort to bunnyhop, and, in my own experiences, have found this setup to be just as adequate if not better than using scripts

granted, you'll miss crucial hops many times because with this setup bunnyhopping is a lot like aiming.. with this setup it becomes something you have to 'warm up' prior to play and requires a lot of skill and experience to pull off

I feel that this is an important point which causes many players to outright boggle at the concept, but many will surely back me up on this point if my messed up bhop style came to some minds

Church · November 2004

I personally still don't understand how scripting gives an unfair advantage. I mean, if anyone asks me I'll happily share what few scripts I have (mostly config switching scripts really) but yes, I do agree that for example, it might be nice if in the manual/read me whatever of NS, there is a small tutorial on how to get started ons cripts so you can get started practicing bhopping earlier or something (personally, I didn't even think about bhopping until I've mastered the basics of NS). Maybe there can also be a linkin the manual linking ot a stie that teaches NS-relevant scripting. I'm sure many clanners would be more than happy to help.

To recap: Scripts ARE ACCESSABLE TO ANYONE and since anyone can get it (and it's built in to the HL engine, not a third party program) I can't see why it's an unfair advantage.

Yes _special is bad, but that's getting taken out in b6 right?

Gecko_God_Of_Dooom · November 2004

Why dont we jsut have Nadagast teach Kobayashi how to bhop using ascript jump aid.
maybe even had Nadagast teach one of the G4B2S Admins how to bhop using a scripte jump aid.

then after that learn; make a report to the other admins. and make a dissision from there. im sure that would satisfy both parties once and for all.

SentrySteve · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (5kyh16h91 @ Nov 10 2004, 07:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How <u>I</u> see that paragraph is, "Well, we never really know when an aimbotter or speedhacker will come on the server, nor do we know how to distinguish hacks from scripts. But instead of telling our admins to evaluate each individual case like good admins should, we just tell them to block scripts, because then we KNOW that anyone who is doing something we don't think is possible has to be hacking, and we can ban him accordingly."  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Who are you to dictate what a "good admin" is or what a "good admin" should do. Not your server. Not your money. Not your properity. Don't like it -- here's a crazy idea -- don't play there!

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That's all I see there. Since scripting isn't an exploit, and by your argument you're trying to delay the spread of exploits to your server</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Looks like it! Too bad that's their server and all you can do is come here and complain! ^_~

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Not a good policy, IMO.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Luckly, your opinion is moot. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' />

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> furthermore, another part of my post states fairly clearly: </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>if nadagast has the option of using a mousewheel and macros, and which nadagast also says he can use </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I can do it without the script if I use the mwheel... </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> then why the gripe about 'mp_bs 1'? maybe he also wants to use some other scripts to exploit other parts of the engine? I'm not accusing you of anything nadagast and from watching the numerous demos submitted, you seem to be doing fine without them, but this IS one logical path that can be taken. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> i already asked and i'll ask again, why gripe about 'bs 1' if you dont need it?  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
What other scripts can I use to 'exploit other parts of the engine'? Please, your knowledge of scripting is laughable at best.

By the way, the reason I argue this is because of principle, not that I need scripts to play on your server. You're basing your conclusion off of false information, leading to a false conclusion. It's not your fault, anyone would do it, just recognize that you don't know that much about scripting and ask to be educated or learn for yourself. That's ALL I want.

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hieyeck @ Nov 10 2004, 01:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>consider us leaving mp_bs to 1 as covering our bases.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> let me rephrase that if it isn't quite clear. we are leaving mp_bs set at 1 because we wish to cover all our bases and at the same time slow down any new exploits that might come forth. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Can you show me one of these 'exploitative scripts'?

Again, other than _special, which will be gone in B6, and there are ways to block it w/o mp_bs.

Edit: Hieyeck, nearly the entire clan community (as far as I remember anyway) was against scripting when I started playing back in 1.04. Admittedly the _special pistol script was much worse back then, but still, the clanning community has come far in terms of how educated they are about scripts... The pub community can do it too. I'm not saying that the clanners are necessarily right in their opinion about mp_bs, but to call them closed-minded is foolish when they have already made the transition.

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gecko God Of DOOOM @ Nov 10 2004, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Why dont we jsut have Nadagast teach Kobayashi how to bhop using ascript jump aid.
maybe even had Nadagast teach one of the G4B2S Admins how to bhop using a scripte jump aid.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I made a big post on their forums explaining exactly what a 3jump does and I don't think any of them bothered to read it, they just repeated the same "scriptz do stuff 4 U!" argument that they were using before.... Sigh.

milk1 · November 2004

Sounds like G4B2S is hopeless...

Necrosis · November 2004

World's biggest post! I love you NS! This post beats my previous best from the discussion thread about the lerk, the conversation with Gem about its "role".

If you're a pubber, you can skim this because really it doesn't concern you. Its that simple. You only need to worry about this if you truly WANT to see the resurrection of your dying segment of the community, or dying server as the case may be.

From the top!

Good responses 5kyh16h and yeah I can see where you're coming from since you're effectively reimagining cris' A-B-C.

I think this is going to be an agree-to-disagree subject, as we're clearly coming from two very opposite angles. IMHO, if you went on this "no battlegorging" server and then battlegorged deliberately, then you are in effect wantonly breaking the rules, therefore becoming a griefer. Regardless of the validity of the rule, breaking it because "it's dumb" does not validate a player's viewpoint.

In addition, if people continually did it deliberately, then battle gorging would be frowned upon purely because of the attitude of battlegorgers - entering servers where their playstyle is banned yet knowingly breaking that rule. You can see how that would cloud your opinion of a group of people. Deliberate griefers are not spoken well of in any community, regardless of how valid their cause.

If battlegorgers played to their own server, and followed the rules on others, then people would be more accepting of their viewpoint. If instead battlegorgers griefed other servers and dragged every forum thread into a battlegorge discussion... well you can see where the path goes.

I largely feel that the problem in the NS community has been created by the attitude of the minority.. a minority who need to realise that in order to get your point across you need to be liked or at least treated neutrally. Noone listens to a smacktard, no matter what truth they speak.

I find your point valid but someone self defeating - if people are paying money to run a server, then they are entitled to run it as they wish with whatever community they wish. They don't have to get on with anyone else, only each other. If the bulk of the community don't like battlegorges, then battlegorgers need to make their own server for their own enjoyment. Use it as an example to others. They should NOT grief other people's hard earned servers purely because they feel discriminated.

Posters saying "I am right, I am right, I am right" are repeating a meaningless mantra. Compromise is the language. "I feel I am right, here is my server, come see for yourself" sounds nicer. The onus is on the minority to show proof of their viewpoint. Even if every player in the world was a battlegorger, thats still not going to stop admins from enforcing their rules.

So the situation would seem to be that the minority community needs to invite admins to their own minority server and show them their side. If the admins aren't interested.. well really thats just tough. Admins are the ones controlling the switches, and its pretty silly to blame the players for something they can't change.

Remember, if the bulk of the community were secretly wanting to battlegorge, they would flock to battlegorge servers. If no battlegorge servers exist, then again it is their responsibility to address that. Noone else is obliged to pander to their whims.

I think that within closed doors in the virtual environment, a person should be able to do what they feel. They pay the rent, we're there at their pleasure. Do any pro-scripting servers exist? Are they popular? If yes, then invite people in. If not, then doesn't that say something about the behaviour of that group?

It's entirely irrelevant how many players are "for" or "against", its about how many servers, how many admins are interested. As you observed, most players don't care. But most players don't run servers, so they're the least of our worries. If every server allowed scripts then the people who didn't like them would be forced to make their own servers. The opposite is also true. And I must note that the only people creating scripting debates (even inventing opportunities to do so) are the selfsame people who grief servers with flagrant rulebreaking.

Malibu -

I type fast. Cope. Second, I don't care what people think of my NS ability, because the problem here is not about skill, or scripts, or nanites, its about people griefing other people and then not comprehending why people think they're tards.

5kyh16h -

Other forums are going to be full of people who have their viewpoints, and not all have the same sort of "don't flame" rules as ns.org. I agree some people are quite.. vocal.. in their disdain, but at the same time you only need to check a handful of threads on these forums to see the issue of scripts being brought up needlessly, or talk of educating the unskilled. I don't see a skill issue. Good players are good players with or without scripts, binds, 3d goggles, etc. Good players can seamlessly switch between a "no consonants in your name" server and a "all global chat must be written backwards" server. They follow the rules, play their best, and people respect them.

The only people who respect a griefer.. are other griefers. Look at any "ban" thread and you see 3 or 4 people huddling together to face the evil admin overlord who banned them for recycling base. Rule breaking is rule breaking, to force a change people have to work within the system.

Forlorn -

Actually I'm more of a communist, I believe the state has an obligation to the people and that the people have an obligation to the state. However I realise the difference between "my beliefs" and "how things work".

A server/forum is a benevolent dictatorship. I learned this from my friends at The Millenium Gate. You are present only at the pleasure of the person running it, and if he doesn't like you, then its not his problem. Noone pays money to run a server in order to have it flooded with rulebreakers, griefers, and people who insult that server's community. The admin has no obligation to his community, and they have no obligation to him.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Every person that the LM community (or some other backwater community)
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Casual and childish insults only further cement community opinion against you. The more people dislike you, the less inclined they are to listen, or care.

People run servers precisely for the privilege of running THEIR ideal of a good game. Not yours. Not mine. Not Flayra's. THEIRS. If their community dies, then they're doing something wrong. If their community flourishes, then they are doing something right.

Griefing, insults, threadspam, arrogance... how does anyone expect to get a following with such behaviour? Again, you become a joke. People laugh at you, noone will listen, no matter how valid your message. Understand and accept this.

The problem a lot of players have is that they think that they are somehow entitled to something despite the fact they have paid NOTHING. I don't pay to play on servers, and in return I don't expect anything from a server. I didn't pay for a number of HL mods and in return I don't expect anything back. Yes, I've played mods which have died, or mods which have changed direction, and I have accepted it.

I have not hinged my online time around griefing the majority because i'm too skinflint cheap to cough up money to host my own server. Temper tantrums are something you grow out of, and most people soon realise that harassing people who are providing a FREE service will quickly earn them the dislike of others.

Normally noone would care, but if you're a minority trying to get a viewpoint across then it is in your own best interest not to be annoying little infants mewling and crying for free milk.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
"It's my server, so I can run it how I want." This is one of the most basic logical fallcies known to mankind
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Wrong. But consider the logical conclusion of your analogy - the server dies if it is badly managed. Why are so many BS_1 servers alive and flourishing with queues of people to enter?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Slander
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Slander is a spoken defamation. We are using text. The word you're looking for is libel. Second, in order to prove it you have to be able to prove that what was said or written about you was false. If someone says "x is a smacktard because he keeps ignoring our server rules" then they are not committing libel. Furthermore, they have to affect your standing in "the community". As a final addendum, you have to prove that the person is stating a FACT as opposed to an OPINION.

I don't think such comments affect your standing. If you're a griefer, people won't like you. Second, SOME people have the opinion that scripting is tantamount to cheating. They are entitled to it, as you are to yours. Thats what the Consitution of the United States is about.

Funny, in the LM thread you linked, I see people who should really know better mouthing off to admins about how they should run their server. Smells like griefing to me... and noone likes griefers... so why do you think then that noone cares about your viewpoint?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Pearl Harbour
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

A sneak attack because people couldn't read radar screens, a sneak attack brought about because the US was about to nix all oil exports to Japan, a country heavily reliant on American oil exports? What goes around comes around, wouldn't you say? I see parallels.. Funny that the griefers have been caught by total surprise by the pubbers who have voted with their feet. And the griefers don't have any way to retaliate, haha, they've dug themselves a nice little hole.

Your use of caps is immature and irrelevant. You will note that admins are running very successful servers with people queuing to get in. The only people destroying the community are griefer rulebreakers and arrogant little children who have more pride than sense. What exactly obliges a bill paying admin to acknowledge your minority little viewpoint when his server is full to bursting? When all you do is grief his server, break his rules, and spam his boards, why should he even acknowledge you?

Reality is going to hit you so hard one day, and I truly hope you can embrace it as opposed to being smashed against it.

Gecko -

Wise man. Thats the viewpoint I'm trying to get across - people need to make their own servers for their own rules. This is the same for every other game on the net, NS is no different. If you grief a saber-only JKIII server then people laugh at you for being a tard. People who make their own FFA JKIII server don't get called tards, they get treated as a "different" part of the community. Different, and no less valid. When a group's only strategy is to insult, flame, spamthread, and display total arrogance, then they place themselves alongside every other troll and griefer on the net.

Also Gecko, I want to highlight your point about a server changing to get more players. Everyone should look at this! A server was empty because it had bad rules, it changed its rules, now its full!

Those people who grief because they're incapable of anything better should really look at this and LEARN from it. Insults and spamthreads are emptying your group of new blood - learn, and CHANGE.

Read Kobayashi's comments - I agree that the problem is that a small hardcore group of tard griefers are crippling everyone else who associates with them. The solution is either for the griefers to learn that they're not acceptable, or for their community to REJECT them with one voice, and with such an action affirm that their community understands what unacceptable behaviour is. Standing alongside a griefer will profit you nothing, even if you agree with "some" of his comments. Think of any inherent evil character through history - he might have liked strawberry ice cream, or walks in the park, but you wouldn't stand up and say "hey, I agree with this villain, he likes ice cream!". Noone will care about the ice cream, they'll just see you siding with the almost universally despised.

Remember, bad news travels fast, mankind is genetically programmed to remember NEGATIVE stimuli. People will spread negative comments faster than they would spread good ones. Reject the griefer section of your community and people will respect you more, open servers and invite people to play on them and they will understand you more, and within a year you will see an explosion of growth.

Or do you wish for people to read these threads and say "He's such a tard, I don't want to be part of his community".

I have played with great players, and did not realise how exceptional they were because these people had nothing to prove, they didn't have to whine or cry, they played their best and accepted what happened. They didn't grief players, or rules, or maps - they coped and won. This silent majority of players are being crippled by a small vocal element who lack the maturity to cope with being ignored and despised for griefing.

5kyh16h -

Psst, I'm NECROSIS, not NECROTIC, haha.

Second, that was what Forlorn claimed my opinion was. What my opinion IS is that "I paid for it, I'll run it how I damn well like".

I challenge you to either do the following or seriously consider the possible outcome of the following -

Build a house containing fine priceless crystal objets d'art.

Place in said house one child, devoid of attention and who does not understand the value of your "please do not touch the crystal" rules.

Give said child a catapult and an amount of pellets/rocks.

When you get the bill to replace all that it destroyed, I want you to tell me that you did the right thing in creating a beautiful place only to stand by and willingly let it be destroyed by someone who couldn't care less about it.

If I paid for something, I would use it as I see fit, and manage its wellbeing to an acceptable extent. It is for my own use, after all. I do not pay for something just for the privilege of watching some attention deficit toddler to rip it to small pieces, tell me it was dumb to begin with, then watch him go break someone else's prize possession.

Thats my opinion on servers. People don't pay for it, they ain't got a right to whine about it.

Nad -

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
It's not even about wether mp_bs is good or not, it's about you guys refusing to view the evidence
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Heh, and its their forum, some guy paid for it, if he thinks you're talking crap then funnily enough he's within his rights to lock it. Child abuse is illegal, and people who say "child abuse rocks, you don't know anything about it" will live very short painfilled lives. I note somewhat despondently that you are quick to name and shame this server as opposed to accept a difference of opinion and move on. Badmouthing the server isn't going to make them listen to you any more than they already do, by the way.

Nad, accept it - noone cares what scripts do or do not do. Admins have a choice to allow them or disallow them, players have a choice to play on those servers or not to. You will note that the blockscript servers vastly outnumber the alternative, and that people are queuing up for what some would say "inferior pubbing play". Well it may be inferior but gee whiz its popular isnt it?

Do you think thats because there's no ranting minority forcing bs_0 servers to switch to bs_1? Notice how noone cares? I note with relish that opinion is polarising only because 3 or 4 people spamthread and simply CAN'T DROP THE ISSUE. Everyone else is wrong! Everyone else doesn't know! I'm more educated! All praise to the Great One! All praise to me! Bow down before me, planets! Bow down stars! Bow down o galaxies and worship the Great One! The me! The Great, all-powerful mmmeeee!.... I huuuurrrtttt! Help mmmeeee! I am burning! My brain is on firrreee! Heeeellllppp mmmeeee!!!!!! *boom*

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Like I've said 3 times before: mp_bs 0 would dominate mp_bs 1.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Is that why it doesnt? I think the people who pay the bills have made their decision. If uneducated fools have more money than you.... then HA HA HA, I guess you'll have to play down at our level eh? You'll have to grovel to be let into our inferior servers because you can't afford your own! Is that why you hate bs_1 so much? Because you can't afford to have different? Why not get a job, you'd have your own server, and if you're to be even halfway believed then you'd have a decent community queuing up!

Yet.. you don't. So does that not mean then that you're wrong? Or that you can't afford to put your money where your mouth is? If you're not willing to step up and show the world an example, then why not sit down, shut up, and play along like a nice little gamer eh? Come on, we all have to cope with life's little foibles. I don't like mushrooms on my frozen pizza, so I have to pick them off. I don't phone Goodfellas up and tell them to take mushrooms off that particular brand of pizza. It'd just annoy them, and I'd look like a tool. I do the good thing, I remove them myself, and noone thinks any the worse of me. Now, is that so hard for a big bad gamer like yourself?

Rennex -

He'll never stop posting, we're just feeding him. I honestly worry that the griefers think that this thread somehow "validates" how "right" they are..... but its just making them look more and more like tools. And the best bit is, they have the most to gain from acting like decent people. I can act like a tool all I like - there's plenty of servers for me. Who has the last laugh eh?

Solution for the community.

Drop the vocal, arrogant and entirely clueless griefers, because noone likes them and that can very quickly mean that by association, noone will like you.

STUMP UP CASH FOR YOUR OWN SERVER. Let the stats decide.

Nadagast · November 2004

Ok first off: Long post, wow <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Nad -
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
It's not even about wether mp_bs is good or not, it's about you guys refusing to view the evidence
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Heh, and its their forum, some guy paid for it, if he thinks you're talking crap then funnily enough he's within his rights to lock it. Child abuse is illegal, and people who say "child abuse rocks, you don't know anything about it" will live very short painfilled lives. I note somewhat despondently that you are quick to name and shame this server as opposed to accept a difference of opinion and move on. Badmouthing the server isn't going to make them listen to you any more than they already do, by the way.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Right they can choose to ignore evidence if they want... but that doesn't make sense really does it?
Relating child abuse to scripting? ROFL? YES MY SCRIPTING MAKES SMALL CHILDREN SUFFER.
Last, I would accept the difference in opinion if they had a clue what they were talking about but from their comments against scripting it's clear they don't.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yet.. you don't. So does that not mean then that you're wrong? Or that you can't afford to put your money where your mouth is? If you're not willing to step up and show the world an example, then why not sit down, shut up, and play along like a nice little gamer eh? Come on, we all have to cope with life's little foibles. I don't like mushrooms on my frozen pizza, so I have to pick them off. I don't phone Goodfellas up and tell them to take mushrooms off that particular brand of pizza. It'd just annoy them, and I'd look like a tool. I do the good thing, I remove them myself, and noone thinks any the worse of me. Now, is that so hard for a big bad gamer like yourself?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
No, it really doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm arguing on principle here...
Why not sit down and shut up? Do you even have to ask this? People aren't educated and coming to wrong (imo) conclusions because of it... Why should I sit down when there's this nice little place called the General Discussion where we can discuss it?
Your mushroom 'analogy' really makes no sense...
Last... when did I say I'm a "big bad gamer?" This has to stop. You're stereotyping me because I'm trying to change people's minds and I'm a vet. Read the bottom of the post for more on this...
For example, I don't stereotype you and say "YOU SUCK AT THE GAME LOL GET SOME SKILL." Don't do it to me.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Nad, accept it - noone cares what scripts do or do not do.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Know what my knee-jerk reaction to this was? LETS BLOCK SCRIPTS! Hey, I got no idea what this newfangled cpl_mouse_fix.zip does, LETS BLOCK IT TOO.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Admins have a choice to allow them or disallow them, players have a choice to play on those servers or not to. You will note that the blockscript servers vastly outnumber the alternative, and that people are queuing up for what some would say "inferior pubbing play". Well it may be inferior but gee whiz its popular isnt it?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You do realize that you're attempting to justify the promotion of ignorance with ignorance right? And I'm pretty sure I NEVER said "inferior pubbing play." I'm pretty sure I've used closed-minded, etc, but not inferior.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Do you think thats because there's no ranting minority forcing bs_0 servers to switch to bs_1? Notice how noone cares? I note with relish that opinion is polarising only because 3 or 4 people spamthread and simply CAN'T DROP THE ISSUE.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I have seen people trying to promote mp_bs 1, I don't know what you're talking about... The main difference between the two sides is that one side uses logical fallacies and no evidence to support their claims... so their attempts to convert end pretty quickly.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Everyone else is wrong! Everyone else doesn't know! I'm more educated! All praise to the Great One! All praise to me! Bow down before me, planets! Bow down stars! Bow down o galaxies and worship the Great One! The me! The Great, all-powerful mmmeeee!.... I huuuurrrtttt! Help mmmeeee! I am burning! My brain is on firrreee! Heeeellllppp mmmeeee!!!!!! *boom*</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Right, where to start?
First, take a lesson everyone: this is a good example of why ad hominem arguments are bad. I'm not even gonna respond. I'm not saying anything like this yet you choose to make stuff up to support your argument... congratulations?
Does popularity = truth Necrosis? No... it doesn't.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Like I've said 3 times before: mp_bs 0 would dominate mp_bs 1.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Is that why it doesnt? I think the people who pay the bills have made their decision. If uneducated fools have more money than you.... then HA HA HA, I guess you'll have to play down at our level eh? You'll have to grovel to be let into our inferior servers because you can't afford your own! Is that why you hate bs_1 so much? Because you can't afford to have different? Why not get a job, you'd have your own server, and if you're to be even halfway believed then you'd have a decent community queuing up!</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Dominates: The value gained by choosing mp_bs 0 is always greater than or equal to that of choosing mp_bs 1.
If you were to accept my argument as true, then this would also be true...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Rennex -
He'll never stop posting, we're just feeding him. I honestly worry that the griefers think that this thread somehow "validates" how "right" they are..... but its just making them look more and more like tools. And the best bit is, they have the most to gain from acting like decent people. I can act like a tool all I like - there's plenty of servers for me. Who has the last laugh eh?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
OH YEAH YOU AND RENNEX SURE GOT THE LAST LAUGH.... rofl
Rennex was in my clan, in case you didn't know...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>STUMP UP CASH FOR YOUR OWN SERVER. Let the stats decide.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yeah cuz we all know how popularity = truth.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Solution for the community.
Drop the vocal, arrogant and entirely clueless griefers, because noone likes them and that can very quickly mean that by association, noone will like you.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Sigh. I don't understand why you act like I'm trying to come here and impose some sort of belief system on people. I'M TRYING TO PROMOTE KNOWLEDGE. Unless you disagree with <b>knowledge itself</b>, my point is valid.
Of course, any clanner that comes here and tries to say anything will suddenly be judged as arrogant, elitest, and clueless by you. Are you saying that every clanner who has posted the story of how they converted to pubbers to clanner is wrong? I've seen at least 5-10 in this thread alone...
Clanners have seen both sides of the fence. You have seen one side, you'd be wise to not knock them.

Last, Necrosis, you NEED to stop these arguments where you imply that I come out and say "I'M BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU HAHAHA". It's just not true, it gets us nowhere, it doesn't help your argument, in fact, it makes you look worse imo. If you think I am in some way being condescending or arrogant, TELL ME (mocking me does no good and doesn't solve the problem). That is NOT my intention.
I think this discussion would go a lot smoother if you kept the hostility, insults, and mocking out of here too. I've tried to.

Last, this is probably just confirming your idea that I'm a condescending ****, but hey if you feel I'm being really unreasonable and talking down to people (and that this will not be solved), then PM me, we can play a game, I'd be more than happy to put up or shut up.

rennex · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 10 2004, 02:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Rennex -
He'll never stop posting, we're just feeding him. I honestly worry that the griefers think that this thread somehow "validates" how "right" they are..... but its just making them look more and more like tools. And the best bit is, they have the most to gain from acting like decent people. I can act like a tool all I like - there's plenty of servers for me. Who has the last laugh eh?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
OH YEAH YOU AND RENNEX SURE GOT THE LAST LAUGH.... rofl
Rennex was in my clan, in case you didn't know...

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
WTH don't bring me into your babbling essays.

And necrapsis (sp?!?), i almost feel sorry that you wasted your time contemplating my role in this forum community, because at the end of the day, this essay contest will change nothing.

Faskalia · November 2004

Believe it or not: I read all 23 pages.

And after reading the last post i have come to a conclusion: There are pub/clanner wars cause there is not a single rule that everyone respects/obbeys.

If you want to really settle this manner you need to build a basis first.

Just like: Always follow your comms orders, even if he is not right. Now, Nadagast you pointed out that you dont follow a comms order, if it seems stupid to you. Well now lets assume that the comms order were not stupid, but a part of a bigger plan. You might have been just a bait for example.
Can you really know what a person intends, humans are unpredictable and your comm might be human, think about it?

The other side of the medal are the pubs: They are many and they are evil. But maybe someone can light a spark, that eventually grows bigger and bigger till it is a mighty fire. We just need someone that can convinve them of the fact that it is possible to kill 7+ rines in a row witheout scripting/cheating/hacking.

And tough scripts are nice to have, they are not really needed for playing NS.

Oh and Nadagast: Why do you care about their oppinion anyway?

Alkiller · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 10 2004, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Believe it or not: I read all 23 pages.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
24 now <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />

And the sad thing was I got banned from one of the communities for saying that CAL does not outlaw scripting... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' />

john_sheu · November 2004

<b>Nadagast</b>: perhaps we <i>do</i> understand scripting, and perhaps we <i>still</i> want mp_bs 1. Wow, news flash, not everybody who disagrees with you is an ignorant tard.

joev · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 10 2004, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> World's biggest post! I love you NS! This post beats my previous best from the discussion thread about the lerk, the conversation with Gem about its "role".  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The best post I have seen on this forum in at least a year.

You are wise... and garrulous.

Your forum title now reflects this.

Well done.

joev.

Buggy · November 2004

/me puts reading this thread in his personal "How to waste time top 5".

Forlorn · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (joev @ Nov 10 2004, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 10 2004, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> World's biggest post! I love you NS! This post beats my previous best from the discussion thread about the lerk, the conversation with Gem about its "role". </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
The best post I have seen on this forum in at least a year.

You are wise... and garrulous.

Your forum title now reflects this.

Well done.

joev.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
If the people who are in the high ups agree with views such those of Necrosis, then that perfectly explains why this community is going to server:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>Hellhole NS #1: Now in a handbasket!</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Address is 666.666.666:0666

Necrosis:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Wrong. But consider the logical conclusion of your analogy - the server dies if it is badly managed. Why are so many BS_1 servers alive and flourishing with queues of people to enter?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Easy enough, because you thriving off the temporary success of NS for your own means!

Hello! Did you read a thing I said? I love how you look at pearl harbor and slander yet you refuse to look at slash and burn farming techniques. Intresting.

Here it is again for your convience:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"With great power, comes great responsibility."

Hey, you wanna claim that you can abuse clanners all you want; go for it dude it's your own community (the same one me and you are in) that you are killing.

By the way, your entire example is reinforced ignorance; you promote the idea you need not to help others but simply leech off the system, and others accept this as fact.

Here's a fact, this logical fallacy of only taking care of yourself has been around forever, and always proven wrong.

That's a logical fallacy. "It's my server, so I can run it how I want." This is one of the most basic logical fallcies known to mankind. It's the same old story where the hero realizes his power and saves the day instead of ignoring it. The truth is if you keep spreading ignorance then it's going to accelerate your death. Do you really want that?

By the way, we can see this logical fallacy done throughout history:

- Hack and Burn farming. Burning down the foilage, then the burned crops provide nutrients to the ground. In turn you plant crops and have a killer season. Too bad it takes another 5 years after to re-use the farm land. But hey, just keep moving on to other farm lands, right? After NS is dead, the lunixmonster can move to another game to leech a community from.

- Slander. Slander is illegal in the United States. Even our founding fathers saw that you could not have people spread lies about each other without destroying the community. And the founding fathers were huge believers of allowing factions to flourish too.

- Pearl Harbor. The United States said, "We just need to take care of ourselves, and we will be fine..." and where did that take them? WW2 would have easily been prevented without people with your mentality necrosis. And today the USA is the world police because they learned the hard way they will eventually be the targets of other countries!</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

To elaborate more on slander and pearl harbor:

- Communities like the lunixmonster and other backwater communties slander the name of clanners. This in turn destroys the community.j

- Pearl Harbor. Simply saying "It's my server I pay for it I do what I want" is stupid because you are going to <b>eventually</b> kill off the community with that attitude. So when you are surprised one day to see the server completely empty, don't be surprised just remember that some 18 year old punk told you off.

The notion that you completely ignore me is again goes straight back to the first post made my nadagast, which no one has been able to prove wrong:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>to sum it all up, the problem is not with the pubbers, the servers, or their choice to block scripts, or their choice to hate vets. It's the ideas they promote, and the total opposition to change or even viewing the evidence. The voluntary ignorance they stand for is BAD. VERY BAD. It's their inability to look at the evidence and change their mind...</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Voluntary ignorance, oh wise loquacious sage?

And to your last comment, you seem to be talking to yourself;

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Reality is going to hit you so hard one day, and I truly hope you can embrace it as opposed to being smashed against it.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Casual and childish insults only further cement community opinion against you. The more people dislike you, the less inclined they are to listen, or care.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Except I always listen. I'm always open. In fact most clanners are open, in order to be a clanner in this community you have to be open else you'd be like 70% of the servers running around shouting why clanners are bad and scripts are evil and bhopping is exploiting the engine.

Necrosis · November 2004

I think we're closing in on IBTL territory, which is pretty sad but pretty much inevitable.

Nad -

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Right they can choose to ignore evidence if they want... but that doesn't make sense really does it?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Doesn't have to. They're paying the bills, not you, so they can make up any rule they like. The counter is for you to scrape some cash together and start your own server.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Relating child abuse to scripting? ROFL? YES MY SCRIPTING MAKES SMALL CHILDREN SUFFER.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I don't recall stating that - merely saying that just because you disagree with a rule doesn't give you the right to break it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Last, I would accept the difference in opinion if they had a clue what they were talking about but from their comments against scripting it's clear they don't.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

And regardless, they don't have to know anything about it. Only that they don't like it. Which is their choice, and they pay X units of currency per month to enjoy that choice. If you don't think there are enough bs_0 servers then I heavily suggest you purchase several and merge back into the community.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
People aren't educated and coming to wrong (imo) conclusions because of it... Why should I sit down when there's this nice little place called the General Discussion where we can discuss it?
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

By all means, becoming the megaphone man blaring loudly at city hall. People won't listen. They might answer your thread, but it doesn't mean they're taking your message on board. Even IF you do convert a pubber, they'll still play on a BS_1 server because thats all there is. If you expect to gain a foothold in the community then I suggest you create your own the old fashioned way.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Your mushroom 'analogy' really makes no sense...
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

That is why you fail. Understand that the best way to solve a problem is to take action YOURSELF. I don't harass Goodfellas about pizza - don't harass admins about their servers. You don't like their style, fine - you're not their customer. Your opinion can be disregarded. I pick mushrooms off - I take action, and it has a real result. Create your own server, make it big, and make it popular. Bring them to you and you'll achieve more than harassing people by deliberate rulebreaking or griefing threads.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
You're stereotyping me because I'm trying to change people's minds and I'm a vet.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

No, I'm trying to educate you with a mature viewpoint of how you'll get more people on your side.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I don't stereotype you and say "YOU SUCK AT THE GAME LOL GET SOME SKILL." Don't do it to me.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I don't suck at the game. Thats why.

Nobody cares what scripts do. Noone has to. Admins make that decision. They pay money to have a server they want to play on. Thats their choice. Make your own, spend your money on it, nuture its community. If its dead in a month then you'll have to alter your "sell", and once your community is thriving you will know how to put your point across in a way people will both read and understand.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
You do realize that you're attempting to justify the promotion of ignorance with ignorance right? And I'm pretty sure I NEVER said "inferior pubbing play." I'm pretty sure I've used closed-minded, etc, but not inferior.
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Its not the "promotion of ignorance", its the right of the billpayer to do as he damn well pleases, or at least to maintain his community. One lone griefer being a tard will not affect him. Several griefers will be a minor annoyance. Players who follow the rules and then suggest an alternative will be listened to more often than not.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I have seen people trying to promote mp_bs 1, I don't know what you're talking about... The main difference between the two sides is that one side uses logical fallacies and no evidence to support their claims... so their attempts to convert end pretty quickly.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

These people are where? I don't see them making threads in GD, or OT. I don't see them spamming up servers. Please, tell me where these pro-bs griefers are, as I'd be interested to meet them. As of the current date, only one group is a persistant thorn in the side of the NS community, and that group also is known for griefing servers and forums with sheer arrogance.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
this is a good example of why ad hominem arguments are bad.
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There is no "ad hominem" argument here. I've systematically countered your points and offered a very viable solution - one you can't accept, it would seem.

You have been more than happy in the past to admit that other players need "education" and that they see things "better" once they get to a clan. Can you accept that some people don't care and will only implement what their community wants implemented? Or accept that yes some people are educated and have decided to use the server switch?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Does popularity = truth Necrosis? No... it doesn't.
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Unpopularity does not equal respect either.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Dominates: The value gained by choosing mp_bs 0 is always greater than or equal to that of choosing mp_bs 1.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Don't dodge the comment. If you're correct that bs_0 dominates bs_1 then why are virtually all servers bs_1? Is every admin, every server community in the NS realm wrong? Are they all uneducated? Its just you who is right? Stats talk, and there has to be some reason why bs_0 servers are virtually nonexistent, wouldn't you agree?

If you were to accept my argument as true, then this would also be true...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Rennex was in my clan, in case you didn't know...
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Couldn't give a hoot, to be honest. He could be your grandmother for all I care. The observation remains valid either way. You won't stop because you are seemingly unable to accept that you will have to start your own cluster of server communities and provide a good playing experience to the masses. Griefing servers and forums will not make anyone listen to you, and you will become more and more of a joke, if not universally recognised as a llama. I am trying to help you understand that only by creating a good environment will you grow a better community.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Yeah cuz we all know how popularity = truth.
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If you're scared, say. If you know that BS_0 servers will never outnumber BS_1 servers, then say. You've nothing to lose. There's no shame in admitting cowardice about server operation - after all, you have to create and enforce rules, keep your community happy, and ensure you've an influx of new blood. A child couldn't do it. It takes a special talent. If people flock to BS_1 servers its because the BS_1 server gives a better play experience. As of writing, this IS the case. Regardless of how dumb you think some servers are, they're still leagues ahead of BS_0 servers. You need to address this if you ever hope to make them more popular.

Popularity does indeed equal truth, something repeated often enough becomes accepted, and once accepted becomes fact. Democracy is all about the enforcement of the most popular truth. BS_1 servers are in the majority because they're a better experience. If they were bad experiences, they would be empty. This is an undeniable and fundamental truth - in a medium where switching server doesn't take a second you can be assured that empty servers are empty for a reason.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I don't understand why you act like I'm trying to come here and impose some sort of belief system on people. I'M TRYING TO PROMOTE KNOWLEDGE.
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Promoting knowledge IS forcing a belief system on people. You are forcing your viewpoint onto other people. Aggressively, and in such a manner that people simply will not listen to you. Deliberate rule breaking on servers will only make you despised, and you will not accept someone's right to say "Because I say so". Understand this, the world revolves around the principle "my house, my rules". Noone is obliged to follow your minority viewpoint. The only way you can make it happen is by making an example and making it popular. Smacktard behaviour will just reinforce any grudge people have against you and concordantly anyone who associates with you. Griefing behaviour only tars you and your friends with the label of griefer, and you should know by now that labels are hard to shift.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Are you saying that every clanner who has posted the story of how they converted to pubbers to clanner is wrong?
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Opinions are not a matter of right or wrong, something you seem to be unaware of. Your opinion is that scripts are harmless, my opinion is that I just want a good game and a good community, and an admin's opinion is that by blocking scripts he won't have to deal with people spamming "ogm scriptor" in his server. The admin is making the right decision from his viewpoint. He does not have to justify it to you, because you are contributing nothing to him. If his server is always full, then he is "in the right" because he's doing what he set out to achieve.

People may shift their viewpoint but you will notice they're all still playing on BS_1 servers. Which is why I say to you, build a BS_0 community and have it as an example. Do not grief other people in their own forums, their own servers, because they will not listen to you. You become the worst stereotype of a Jehovah's Witness, or Mormon - people will just avoid you on sight and soon enough you will be banned from ever server there is, purely because people will assume you're going to join, break some rules, then say those rules are dumb.

Understand this. Take it onboard. Mull it over in your mind. The only way to get people into your way of thinking is to have a working example to show them. Mere STATEMENTS that "bs_0 will dominate bs_1" aren't worth the pixels they're made of. Why? Because you just need to look on the servers - bs_1 dominates all.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Clanners have seen both sides of the fence. You have seen one side, you'd be wise to not knock them.
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I'll knock who I like, because the beauty of it is that there are legions of servers I can go on and have a good time. I don't have to grief people, I don't have to deliberately break rules and tell admins their rules are dumb. I can login, play, logout. Its that easy. YOU are the one who has to put across the better image.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
it doesn't help your argument, in fact, it makes you look worse imo.
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I don't need to help my argument - I'm in the majority. I have servers aplently, I'm welcomed or at least treated neutrally on most if not all NS servers and forums. Compare me to a group of people who are watched like hawks because everyone now expects them to cause grief. You wonder why your community is dying?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I think this discussion would go a lot smoother if you kept the hostility, insults, and mocking out of here too. I've tried to.
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I'm not setting out to mock, I'm just trying every way I can to explain the idea that the only way you will be accepted credibly by the gamer masses is by having a small community as an example of how your way works. Noone believes theories on paper - look in the Strategy subforums. Its all about actual proof. BS_0 does NOT dominate BS_1 on the servers - its woefully outnumbered. The common concept of players who should KNOW BETTER is that of a griefer who joins a server and ignores the rules because he doesn't like them. Lets not forget, experienced players have seen both side of the fence and should have a bit more wit about how they behave on a pub. If someone acts like a tard on ANY server, they can expect a ban - you don't help your cause by having a group of people OPENLY ADMITTING TO GRIEFING.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
PM me, we can play a game, I'd be more than happy to put up or shut up.
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And a key question here - What would that prove? Validity is not about winning games. You might be able to take me in NS and perhaps some other games, I could do the same using my forte of games. I've been banned from servers for OTHER games because I outclass people, so I'm well aware of what the other side of the fence looks like.

I can tell you for a fact, the survival of a community sharing your outlook is NIL unless you can unite them on a small group of servers and then get that community to grow by proving yourselves as a GOOD example of NS gameplay. Grief play, spam threads, etc, won't help you. Understand I want to keep experienced players in the NS community but its getting fricking ridiculous if a hard core element of them must INSIST on being smacktards on servers and then openly admitting and boasting of it on forums. I mean holy hell, its the most obvious way to alienate people ever.

Rennex -

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
this essay contest will change nothing.
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Your post is childish and defeatist. I've a bit more faith in the experienced players, I know that someday enough of them will realise that the only way to survive is to integrate.

Its surreal, if someone made a racist post and got banned for it, you'd understand. If you made a political post and got banned, you'd understand. You insult the admins and offer no counter other than "your rules are dumb" and you can't figure out why you were banned? Doesn't matter how dumb the rule is, the fact is that it exists. You either follow it and keep your nose clean, or you break it and you suffer a penalty. Whining about being punished for breaking laws only indicates a fundamentally immature mindset.

Cmon folks, you're smarter than this. Start the BS_0 community, make it grow, do it the dignified way. Don't troll forums and slur servers because you don't happen to agree with their outlook. Don't become a tard.

Edit -

Whoa... custom title. Thanks joev!

Forlorn, I notice you sneaked in a post, I'll try and address it here eh?

I don't think I'm entitled to comment on how "valid" my views are, but consider this - I think everyone agrees with me that you can PROVE scripts aren't evil by building your own subcommunity and making it popular and successful. You can agree to this suggestion too yes? Thats the key crux of my post - lead by example man!

Is bs_1 temporary? Maybe.. but that depends on how you handle bs_0. If bs_0 becomes synonymous with grief play then yes bs_0 will die and bs_1 will achieve godhood. YOU can stop this. You have within you the ability to form a community to show a BETTER way. The community already exists which shows the "better way" for bs_1.. the onus is on you to validate your opinion with a shining successful example. And I think you all have the capacity to do it.

Hack/burn farming has nothing to do with a server shifting in order to gain popularity my friend. Hack burn farming is about getting the most from the soil before leaving it fallow to recuperate. BS_1 servers provide a positive gaming experience, they're not about exploiting players. If there was anything negative about BS_1 then those servers would not be filled to bursting. The only way we'll see the negative side is if people make BS_0 servers - make em big, and make em popular. Understand that without an example of your "better way" noone will give credibility to your outlook. Discussing semantics is all very well but the fact remains BS_1 dominates the scene. Until you can PROVE BS_0 servers can rock you will only be giving us a THEORY... and not many people will buy into a theory when they can see so much fact around them (irrespective of truth).

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Communities like the lunixmonster and other backwater communties slander the name of clanners
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No. These "backwater communities", which you will be decent enough to note have very FULL servers, ban on the basis of player behaviour. If you walk in, ignore rules, be a tard, you WILL get banned. Its the same on NS.org forums - noone can escape by claiming the rules are dumb. If rules are dumb, leave. If you're not smart enough to leave, we will ban you because your spamthread and misbehaviour only clutter up our servers. That is the logic you are trying to assail.

Admins will listen to themselves and sometimes their community. They do NOT listen to griefers, ever. The more servers you grief, the more people will despise you and you can be assured that you WILL kill your segment of the community. Please, see sense, understand that only leading by example will get you the new blood you so desperately NEED.

Forlorn, read other posts about servers emptying. They changed. They filled up. This is politics. You have seen in recent days many servers wipe their ban slates because they need players back. You change a server by voting with your feet. A good admin changes his server to reflect his community. If his server empties, he will want to fill it and thus he will change how he runs it. Remember your Pearl Harbour history - arrogance became the downfall of alleged professionals. Your servers are all but gone, your community is spasming in its death throes. YOU are the ones suffering but instead of solid examples you continue to bandy semantics in circular threads people will NOT read because they see the name Forlorn, Nadagast, TheAdj, Necrosis, etc. Understand that with a strong server community you will be able to educate people by providing a better play experience than BS_1. That is your ONLY strength, and you NEED to exploit that to rebuild your shattered segment of the community. See the logic of it. Being synonymous with griefer will only cement your future.

Voluntary ignorance? Understand that admins don't need or want to understand how server switches work. They want a nice popular easy to run server. BS_1 prevents constant arguments over scripting - its the easier way forward. Its not an admins job to explain why he does things his way, he can just ban you. They don't view the evidence because their decision has been made, and if you spam the evidence anyway then they will ban you because you weren't smart enough to figure out that they don't care.

Look again at those locked threads - the griefers say "your rules are dumb" and the admin bans them. Its cold hard simple logic. You break the law, you get punished. You refuse to accept the law, and you get barred from polite society. You go to a small room where noone listens to you. This is what your behaviour is doing, and you can't seem to grasp the issue or understand the motivation of the admin.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
you have to be open else you'd be like 70% of the servers
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If you want people to care you'll have to lower that number. Make more BS_0 servers, lead by example, or find yourself extinct. Noone has to listen to your viewpoint, noone has to care about your viewpoint. You are not voting for them, you are not paying their wages, in fact all you are doing is griefing them and acting badly on their hard earned servers. Would you let a persistent griefer occupy a slot on your server? I credit you with enough honesty to admit that you would punish a rulebreaker, just like everyone else would. If you intend to grow your community you need to swallow hard and accept that you're going to have to PROVE you're the best of the community. Not in skill, not in game knowledge, but in the ability to provide a better play experience.

This does not mean kissing people's bottoms, or playing dumb so that they think they're really good, but its about bringing the best of your experience and selling it in such a way that a pubber would be fool to resist. Master this and the world is yours.

Civil war? Won't help. Do what the English did - breed them out.

john_sheu · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 10 2004, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>Hellhole NS #1: Now in a handbasket!</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Address is 666.666.666:0666</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Sorry, IPs are a sequence of 4 bytes. You manage to: (1) only specify three bytes and (2) exceed the range of a byte. You lose. <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 10 2004, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
If the people who are in the high ups agree with views such those of Necrosis, then that perfectly explains why this community is going to server:

<i>...snip...</i>

Except I always listen. I'm always open. In fact most clanners are open, in order to be a clanner in this community you have to be open else you'd be like 70% of the servers running around shouting why clanners are bad and scripts are evil and bhopping is exploiting the engine.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
What open? Open to people who have the same opinion that you do? So <b>joev</b> comes in here with a different opinion, and then you slander the whole community.

john_sheu · November 2004

<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>I smell civil war.</span>

And I fear.

G4B2SWrath · November 2004

milk. , I'd like to think people would come on over and play with the community and decide for themselves without this flame propaganda <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

I'm not sure people are understanding what Necrosis is saying, but from my view, he's certainly on top of things here. The worst thing we could possibly do is <b>not</b> have a server. Since we <b>do</b> have some servers, we're automatically contributing to the community by giving new players a place to come and have fun. Is it too hard for you to just accept that not all servers are going to meet your (unrealistic) demands to adjust our settings exactly how you want them? Isn't drawing up more community members enough? These players have brains, and they do ask about the clan scene, and we direct them to search the recruitment forums here and the clan irc channels.

People will go from the training servers, to an average skill server like ours, and then maybe take up some clan play. They'll do it when they're ready, it's not like we're activly saying 'oh noes, clans bad'. Far from it. But you seem to think that when we have a setting like blockscripts on, thats what we're doing or we're using it so we don't have to bother trying to catch people as hard. We have a large amount of admins because we review each others actions constantly. Blockscripts does not replace good administration by any means, and we'd appreciate you stop implying these types of insults.

As Necrosis said, the more you insult your audience, the less likely we'll listen to what you have to say. Most of the posters replying have come out sounding condescending or downright insulting, which is unfortunate, because there are still a few people here making valid points on both sides without resorting to attacks.

semipsychotic · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As Necrosis said, the more you insult your audience, the less likely we'll listen to what you have to say. Most of the posters replying have come out sounding condescending or downright insulting, which is unfortunate, because there are still a few people here making valid points on both sides without resorting to attacks. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I wish to thank you and elaborate on this point.

Attention forum monkeys: Flaming is NOT a persuasive skill. All it does is alienate anybody arguing against you, simply making things worse for your argument. So, if you're flaming, what are you accomplishing? All you're doing is waiting for a ban.

And if you're arguing, but you don't plan on persuading anybody, you don't belong in online forums anyway.

Head_crab · November 2004

The "Natural Selection" Allegory Of The Cave

Step 1: The player is new and ignorant of any strategy/technic/common sense of the game. He plays on a server with generally not-so-good players. He manages to do very good compared to the other players. That server gives him the illusion that he is actually very good no matter what, perhaps the best. He is stuck at the bottom of the cave.

Step 2: An actual good player then plays against him and, at the same time, shows the less-good player that he can actually be beaten. The better player indirectly tries to show him that he is playing with not-so-good players who are giving him a bad example. However, this second step fails. The less-good player does not accept to see this new situation as the truth, as he has always been playing while thinking that he knew the truth : that he was a very good player. He will return to step 1, but he will form new beliefs to explain what he has experienced with the actual better player. He will believe that something out of his control - lag, hacks, scripts, Barney the purple dinosaur, Skippy the kangaroo, anything imaginable, etc. - is responsible for what he has seen, even though it is not the truth. Some people never pass step 2.

Step 3: Somebody could try to take our player to the exit of the cave, where he could see the day light. After a while, our player might start to see it, but it will fail for the few first times as it will take a lot of time to eliminate the old beliefs. Meanwhile, he may start thinking that there are perhaps ways to improve the way he plays. He may later make researches about strategies, game technics and he could try out new things. He then starts seeing the truth and he improves his gameplay. This player then begins to constantly learn new things about the game. After being fully at step 3, it is impossible for the player to have the desire to go back to step 1 or 2, because he would then find himself ignorant. Interesting. There are quite a few people who are at this step right now in this community, but most are still lying between step 2 and step 3.

Step 4: After having learned everything, our player now knows the real truth about everything in this game. He understands this truth and he is reasoning with it. He has got out of the cave and he can only feel sorry for the other players who are still in the cave. Nobody is at this step and the proof is that even the best players are still learning new things to improve their gameplay every day.

You can help some people get out of the cave, but only them have the capacity of reaching the exit. If they want to live in ignorance, I say let them, because it is their problem and they just won't have access to the good of knowing. The reason some people tend to go to step 3 is because they think it will be more beneficial and interesting for them, which can be considered as true, since it makes the games better, therefore funnier.

Little drawing:

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Nov 10 2004, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I don't stereotype you and say "YOU SUCK AT THE GAME LOL GET SOME SKILL." Don't do it to me.
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I don't suck at the game. Thats why. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Right and I don't go around saying I'm better than everyone else, yet you say I do.
Anyway, want to play a game sometime? Maybe you can teach me a thing or two...

Besides, you're basing your entire argument on a logical fallacy.

Gecko_God_Of_Dooom · November 2004

Necrosis is sighting a way that you may change the pubbers view in some sense. Or i belive he is sighting the best way to bring about the reforms you want.
Start your own server and teach the masses. In which you have already done. Im sure Nadagast has opened a view minds, maybe even educated a few as well. I am in the clan seen. And I help run a community server. I see Both sides of the arguments. Necrosis money argument is very valid, and most of the members on the community server like mp_blockscripts 0. In my own clan some of us use scripts, some dont want to.
(I used to think one of them scripted actualy cause he bhopped so well.)

Im disagreing with anyone side. Im agreeing with almost both, because I understand both sides. Would I like to see more servers with BS0. Yes. Its a pain for me to have to go into consol to rebind half my most used keys. Yes.

I am hoping that most servers have blockscripts 1 will go back to 0 once _special is removed. And I aslo belive that there are alot of admins who are not educated enough about scripts to realy make a sound desision..How ever if they are not open to it. do what Necrosis says and vote with your feet. and for real power, vote with your cash, since it is cash that runs the servers.

And dont get me wrong, It is Okay to say something for if you dont say something then no one will ever know. and I do want more open mindedness for all the community but its very very hard to get people to open thier minds up.

If I remember correctly it was gallilao who figured out the earth was round. and due to ignorance he was killed for. I belive he posted his findings everywhere. Eventualy someone got enough money, and people to PROVE that the earth was round. Magellon I think....and im sure that some people didn't even believe that untill a few generations passed and it was taught as comen knowledge.

Thus the only way to due this is to make servers that promote scripting, teach scripting and teach all the values that you hold, and have it so that there is a higher desity of them over the """Ignorant""" servers. So when a player clicks on a server, they accidently goto the """Non Ignoratant""" server.

Necrosis · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
think that people choose to play on bs 1 or bs 0 servers? No they just go to a server which has a nice mix of players/ping/map.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

In truth? Yes. I know I'd take a 100 ping server with good community and solid play over a 42 ping server full of tards. I make that choice every time a slot is free on my favourite server.

If you can get people thinking that your server is more fun, more competitive, and ultimately a better way to spend time than any other server, then they will easily risk doubling their ping in other to get on it.

And the best bit is... if people like it enough, they will copy it. Soon it won't be 5 NA scripter servers, it'll be 8-10 across the major continents, and from there it'll grow further. Eventually you'll be in a position to tell ANY nsplayer that he can find a low ping high skill server. Have faith!

MrBen · November 2004

What we need is to stop arguing because frankly i doubt any of us even remember how this started. Nec, ness, redford, all the rest of the vocal and mature public players, we need YOUR help to achieve this. We (the clanners) can try and fix this problem ourselves but we're outsiders in the public community now, we need the more vocal and influential public players to help us. Be the bigger guys, put away the hatchet and help a brother out!

What Needs To Happen

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