<!--QuoteBegin-kavasa+Sep 22 2004, 12:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Sep 22 2004, 12:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree with you, to be christian is to rize above the challenges of the world for the glory of God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lolz <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I probably shouldn't but I did laugh uncontrollably.
<a href='http://www.xenos.org/essays/role_of_women.htm' target='_blank'>Essay about the women in leadership debate that sheds some light on 1 Tim 2.</a>
Well, I skimmed most of that article, and read what appeared to be the critical points of her argument - that being that the 1 Timothy passage should be seen as a rebutal to the mother-goddess cults as well as the gnostics.
And I agree - however that is not all that 1 Timothy is trying to show.
Throughout the Bible, God uses patterns and pictures to show his people what he desires of them, and to explain his relationship to them. The sacrificial system is a picture of Christ, marriage is a picture of God and his people, Shepherds and sheep - likewise a picture of God and his relationship to us.
Going into the argument with this "pictoral" mindset helps me understand why God would not give women the same roles as men. In the picture of marriage, we (as God's people) are the bride - He protects and cares for us. He leads us. If you read Song of Solomon you see roles (somewhat steriotypical) being placed on men and women the entire book. Likewise, when we approach church government, it follows that we should look at the pattern God gives to us, and attempt to follow that pattern.
Does that mean that women can't be teachers? No, many women are blessed with extrordinary teaching ability (my wife included). Does that mean they should be elders and ministers? No. Rather, they should exercise their God given abilities to be deconesses - servants in the church uplifting the members.
I think we're reaching a consensus, but I still believe that the idea of not having women elders is more a maxim than an absolute.
I say that simply because God does not, or at least, has not in the past, considered it inappropriate to have women in authority over men, even at the highest level. Eg, Deborah the prophetess in Judges 4.
Firstly, the one who placed Deborah in authority was God himself, according to Judges 2:16. This is important, since she was very authoritative in Israel according to ch. 4:4. there is no evidence in the text that she was under anyone else's authority.
Secondly, Paul cites Genesis 3 liberally in 1 Tim 2, and those literal restrictions, as well as symbolic representations, were still present at the time of Deborah's judgeship.
If we view 1 Tim 2:12 as a moral absolute, we condemn God for his actions with Deborah.
I believe that Paul was concerned about turmoil in the Ephesian church, and the women in the church were forbidden to teach because they caused some, if not most of the trouble. Paul backed up his position with Gen 3:16, showing good reason behind Gods ruling that husbands were to be the head of the home, and that ruling wasn't to be undermined in the church. However, if conditions did not threaten the stability of the church due to turmoil or confusion in ceremonies, then the ban on teaching would not apply. If, finally, men were not accepting of the responsibility of leadership, then women may certainly lead.
I think we desperately need a woman in a place of power. A woman who isn't a tool of her political affilation, well thats a generality, we need someone who isn't partisan and won't lie his way into office like bush and kerry.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Sep 22 2004, 02:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Sep 22 2004, 02:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TheCheeseStandsAlone+Sep 21 2004, 10:07 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheCheeseStandsAlone @ Sep 21 2004, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Sep 21 2004, 08:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 21 2004, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think the bible counts as the word of god when its written by men.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe that the transcripts of the radio programs I listen to on NPR aren't the words of the hosts, because they were transcribed by someone else. ::rolleyes:: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Out of all the counter-arguments to my statement yours is by far the worst. tsk tsk <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's inspired by God, and most christains belive that God hasn't allowed any inconsistancies into its words. At very least Christians belive that the whole bible is valuable, and good for teaching, becuase that is pretty much exactly what one of the more famous and authoritive quotes from Paul says.
Personally I work under the assumption that the bible is underlied with truth and it is the intentional word of God, but that being said, I don't belive it should be read at literal value becuase there are way to many contridictions and oversimplifications at the literal level, and I find it far more likely that God is trying to say things at a very complicated level that is veiled by the author's inability to understand and comprehend the word, than the probablility that God says crude and simplistic things that the author's didn't hear properly, and thus used vauge and indescripive language to discribe.
From my experiance reading the bible, when God articulates something on a simple level, which the author then scribes, there is really no mistaking his intentions or his motovations. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In my opinion the reason that there are contradictions and so forth points to the idea that the Bible is alot more "Man inspired" than "God inspired".
The fact that women are not supposed to hold official roles in the Church is hardly surprising. For centuries men have dominated women in most cultures. It was not all that long ago that women were not allowed to vote in the good ol USA. So why should religion be any different ?
After all, Eve is supposed to have come from Adam, and thus is secondary - "a companion" if you will. Eve tempted Adam of course, which seems to indicate that women are more to blame than men for being kicked out of Eden...etc etc. Again, this illustrates the dominant sex making sure that women hold a secondary role even in matters of faith.
This is from an ex-Christian's perspective. The bible IMO is - amongst other things - simply man's attempt at explaining his origins and the world around him (and subjugating woman as an added bonus).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In my opinion the reason that there are contradictions and so forth points to the idea that the Bible is alot more "Man inspired" than "God inspired".
The fact that women are not supposed to hold official roles in the Church is hardly surprising. For centuries men have dominated women in most cultures. It was not all that long ago that women were not allowed to vote in the good ol USA. So why should religion be any different ?
After all, Eve is supposed to have come from Adam, and thus is secondary - "a companion" if you will. Eve tempted Adam of course, which seems to indicate that women are more to blame than men for being kicked out of Eden...etc etc. Again, this illustrates the dominant sex making sure that women hold a secondary role even in matters of faith. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never seen a fully conclusive proof that the bible is as ridden with contradictions as skeptics would like to believe. There was a rather comprehensive list of supposed contradictions floating around here a while ago, but Tektonics.org shot it full of more holes than swiss cheese.
Unless it can be proved that the bible is in fact flawed, it's painfully difficult to dismiss it as outdated mythology.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless it can be proved that the bible is in fact flawed, it's painfully difficult to dismiss it as outdated mythology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, its still rather easy to dismiss it as outdated mythology. I could write a similar fiction that was internally consistant, but that wouldn't make it any more true.
Honestly, for me taking all this "You must believe in me or your going to a fiery place where demon's will play Barney's I love you song for eternity." Makes me have a harder time believing in such a person. I dunno about you, but this God doesn't seem to be a nice guy. Why would he have men write a book when he (Being the creator and all) just write a message in the sky. I think he's lazy or something :/
Why should I be forced to believe in something that is afraid to show itself in some body form or message in the sky. Only way I can truely believe that some God exists is if he comes down from the sky and go "HAH I EXIST" and wink an eye at me. Or when the time comes when I die and hope (50/50 chance) that some after life is there or something. I would prefer reincarnation instead of a eternity in heaven. Even if it is perfect after a while change is good ^_^
So as I sit in my chair a New Testament Bible (Holy Roman Catholic) stacked away under other books. I sit here and just live my simple life, not breaking any laws and trying to stay as happy as I can ever be. Thats as simple as it is for me. Just be happy and live my life.
So there remains my only question left. Since science believe it knows how big the universe is now the only question left is. Is there a God or not?
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Sep 22 2004, 11:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Sep 22 2004, 11:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unless it can be proved that the bible is in fact flawed, it's painfully difficult to dismiss it as outdated mythology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary, its still rather easy to dismiss it as outdated mythology. I could write a similar fiction that was internally consistant, but that wouldn't make it any more true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> your argument is outdated mythology. Can you construct a mythos which agrees with the most extensive historical database over 4 to 6 millenia, a sound theology, mass delusion, many eyewitness reports of inexplicable events (by our understanding of nature), and prophetic revelation, that is sustainable, has a solid moral code, and espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all?
Guess not - the mormons have tried, and failed, the gnostics have tried, and failed, the older pagan mythologies tried, and failed. See a pattern here? Most credible philosophers agree that the Bible sets forth the soundest moral code that has ever been invented, and guess what, I'm willing to bet that if we can't do it in 3500 years of trying extremely hard, there's a reason behind it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->your argument is outdated mythology. Can you construct a mythos which agrees with the most extensive historical database over 4 to 6 millenia, a sound theology, mass delusion, many eyewitness reports of inexplicable events (by our understanding of nature),<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. All I have to do is base it on UFOs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->has a solid moral code, and espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha. I'd hardly say that christianity "espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all". That being said, why create a good moral code when it would be so much more fun to create an "evil" one? Especially since people would just twist it to make it mean whatever they want anyway, just like with christianity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guess not - the mormons have tried, and failed, the gnostics have tried, and failed<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually I think gnosticism is a better overall interpretation of scipture than christianity. And from what I recall of the Gnosticism thread from a while ago, you were unable to proove that it was any less true than christianity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See a pattern here? Most credible philosophers agree that the Bible sets forth the soundest moral code that has ever been invented.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't give a rats **** about what philosophers YOU consider credible think. I certainly can't stand for a moral code that damns you just for being born, which you have no choice over, and damns you for ending your own life, even though you had no choice in being born. Sorry, I just don't buy it.
Continuing on this path is pointless and, more than likely, in violation of the forum rules. I was only pointing out that mearly because the bible was consistant (if indeed it is), doesn't make it significantly less dismissable.
Goodness kids… After going through all these posts i don't even know what to talk about, or even think about. This all branched from some sermon on Metallica? Wow. I could barely follow who was arguing with who and who was proving whom wrong and about what. How do you people sleep at night?
Secondly I don’t think you can argue someone into Christianity. If anything I think you will most likely push them away from God. So rather, I recommend getting them drunk and seducing them with Jesus’ sweet sweet love. Anyways, I’m outages… God Bless!!
Simply put, would you rather think theres an eternity of paradise after this life or nothingness. Humans cannot believe what they cannot perceive. Total nothingness.
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Sep 22 2004, 11:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Sep 22 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly, for me taking all this "You must believe in me or your going to a fiery place where demon's will play Barney's I love you song for eternity." Makes me have a harder time believing in such a person. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you are born and grow up in the world with no food, and I know I can help you, but my ethical obligation, being a superior being, who knows that you can't understand the gift I am giving you unless you want it enough to explore it once you have it, is to only give you food if you ask for it, what should I do? God made us, and he made us, and he decided that we were gonna be cooler and better then everything else he made, by making us a little bit like him and giving us an unpredictible factor called free choice. Unfortunate thing is, the allowance of powerful beings to have free choice, is they can conciously choose self distruction, and without either taking it away from us, or distroying the potential benifits of free choice, there is nothing God can do about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno about you, but this God doesn't seem to be a nice guy. Why would he have men write a book when he (Being the creator and all) just write a message in the sky. I think he's lazy or something :/ I dunno about you, but this God doesn't seem to be a nice guy. Why would he have men write a book when he (Being the creator and all) just write a message in the sky. I think he's lazy or something :/<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> God writes messages all over the place, ask any micro physicist, any jewish rabbi, any religious figure from any religion, hell ask him. Thing is, he can't force you to see who he really is, you have to look at him. If I hold a sign up in the middle of the city, you still have to look at what the sign says in order to read it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why should I be forced to believe in something that is afraid to show itself in some body form or message in the sky. Only way I can truely believe that some God exists is if he comes down from the sky and go "HAH I EXIST" and wink an eye at me. Or when the time comes when I die and hope (50/50 chance) that some after life is there or something. I would prefer reincarnation instead of a eternity in heaven. Even if it is perfect after a while change is good ^_^<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eternity in heaven is an oversimplification, no one would be happy being stuck doing the same things for all of eternity, so when God says eternity in paradise, I personally think that he has a little more planned then I can really imagine, after all, were I to have never seen the world before, I really doubt that I could have come up with it, but he did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So as I sit in my chair a New Testament Bible (Holy Roman Catholic) stacked away under other books. I sit here and just live my simple life, not breaking any laws and trying to stay as happy as I can ever be. Thats as simple as it is for me. Just be happy and live my life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much, I search for ratification in the exeriance of life, and I revel in the love of God, but the human story the way anyone tells it is really a pointless one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So there remains my only question left. Since science believe it knows how big the universe is now the only question left is. Is there a God or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Science knows how far apart the farthest out stars are, if your concept of size is simply cofined to the width lenght and hieght of something, then yes, science knows how big it is. But if I refer to someone as a 'Big man' I am saying something about thier character, not nessicarily thier girth or height, so there is room in our big universe for the character of God?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->your argument is outdated mythology. Can you construct a mythos which agrees with the most extensive historical database over 4 to 6 millenia, a sound theology, mass delusion, many eyewitness reports of inexplicable events (by our understanding of nature),<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. All I have to do is base it on UFOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An advent of the last 50 years. Out of the hundreds of people described in detail in the scriptures, I can only think of 4 that were 'taken up into heaven,' the closest thing to abduction in scripture. The only one to tell about it says nothing about the probing that contemporary 'witnesses' to UFOs speak of. This isn't consistant at all with Paul's account, and one of them must be wrong. Either that, or there are two types of aliens, one that shows people an elaborate vision of heaven and joy, the other that look like grays and rams things in people's orifices.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually I think gnosticism is a better overall interpretation of scipture than christianity. And from what I recall of the Gnosticism thread from a while ago, you were unable to proove that it was any less true than christianity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I missed that thread, but Gnosticism had it's root in teachers that charged extravagant ammounts of money for scrolls and books which were said to contain the true knowledge of salvation. Akin to the bastard people you see on TV today that claim a $1000 pledge to their "church" would cause blessing for you for all eternity. And only a $1000 dollar pledge, and only to their church, and not any other way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ha. I'd hardly say that christianity "espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all". That being said, why create a good moral code when it would be so much more fun to create an "evil" one? Especially since people would just twist it to make it mean whatever they want anyway, just like with christianity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you pretty much pwned yourself there. It would be easyer to create a moral code that advocated, if nothing else, taking what you needed and not caring about anyone else.
Christ, however, calls for service to people, and worship of God. Total selflessness. It's by definition, impossible to follow, so why create it? Why not something that everyone could follow, and could feel good about doing. Eg. Islam.
I also fail to see how Christian teaching isn't caring and humanitarian. I respect the fact that that's what you think, but in the long run, what you think doesn't matter much. If God exists and his moral code is the Bible's, then you do little more than add insult to injury when you say his requirements are biased or twisted in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I certainly can't stand for a moral code that damns you just for being born, which you have no choice over, and damns you for ending your own life, even though you had no choice in being born. Sorry, I just don't buy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't damned for being born, you're damned for sin, for rebellion against God. In the Old Testament, you weren't held accountable unless you were old enough to understand what it was you were doing. Ultimately, we DO have choice whether to Sin or not, and THAT is our choice of where we want to end up in eternity. After that, only Christ is a way of reversing our original decision.
Suicide isn't a specifically unforgiveable sin, that's Catholic doctrine, that if you really want to defend, we can go into elsewhere. It is, however, an incredibly selfish thing to do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Continuing on this path is pointless and, more than likely, in violation of the forum rules. I was only pointing out that mearly because the bible was consistant (if indeed it is), doesn't make it significantly less dismissable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the bible is perfectly consistant and noncontradictory, then on the contrary. It is the only worldview worthy of thought.
No other religions follow this Law of Non-contradiction, some eastern religions would go so far as to say that it doesn't matter, ultimatly, if things contradict each other or not, which is flat out illogical.
Even secular humanism teaches some morality, without a solid claim as to why that morality is important. Sure, as a society, altruism may have caused prosperity, but why is it important on a personal basis? Why can't I shoot coke and kill myself? Why is my life important? Humanism leaves no answer to these questions, and assigns no value to life, yet insists life is to be protected.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheCheeseStandsAlone+Sep 23 2004, 02:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheCheeseStandsAlone @ Sep 23 2004, 02:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simply put, would you rather think theres an eternity of paradise after this life or nothingness. Humans cannot believe what they cannot perceive. Total nothingness. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then why are there whole worldviews that DO claim a form of nothingness? If it's not something Humans can percieve, why are there whole religions based around it?
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Sep 23 2004, 01:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Sep 23 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ha. I'd hardly say that christianity "espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all". That being said, why create a good moral code when it would be so much more fun to create an "evil" one? Especially since people would just twist it to make it mean whatever they want anyway, just like with christianity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you pretty much pwned yourself there. It would be easyer to create a moral code that advocated, if nothing else, taking what you needed and not caring about anyone else.
Christ, however, calls for service to people, and worship of God. Total selflessness. It's by definition, impossible to follow, so why create it? Why not something that everyone could follow, and could feel good about doing. Eg. Islam.
I also fail to see how Christian teaching isn't caring and humanitarian. I respect the fact that that's what you think, but in the long run, what you think doesn't matter much. If God exists and his moral code is the Bible's, then you do little more than add insult to injury when you say his requirements are biased or twisted in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Random history lesson, the actions of the early christians in the first rize of chritianity under the Roman empire, easily constitute the greatest humanitarian movement of all time. Christians, on mass, aided the sick at thier own expence, spread money gratuitously among the poor, rescued untold numbers of abandoned infants (infant abandonment was as much a part of Roman culture as adoption or abortion is to us), and generally could be considered the most upstanding factor in that sociaty. This is often acredited as the reason that the birth of christianity constituded the fastest population bloom ever experianced by a religion, in spite of the fact that the religion itself was widely persecuted by the authority structures it grew under.
Random religious lesson, The muslim law code contains pretty much everything that the jewish law code does, and includes service to people, worship of God, and total selflessness. The only thing that can be argued that christians must do that the muslims are not commanded to to, is to love all people as much as they love themselfs. What you percieve as failings in the muslim law code, are due to people trying to do as little as possible and still be considered religious, and I would point out that there are millions of christians that do that too.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Sep 23 2004, 01:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Sep 23 2004, 01:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random religious lesson, The muslim law code contains pretty much everything that the jewish law code does, and includes service to people, worship of God, and total selflessness. The only thing that can be argued that christians must do that the muslims are not commanded to to, is to love all people as much as they love themselfs. What you percieve as failings in the muslim law code, are due to people trying to do as little as possible and still be considered religious, and I would point out that there are millions of christians that do that too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Does that make it right? Millions of Christians do it, yes, but they shouldn't.
Islam doesn't, to my knowledge, teach the total "give up your life and follow me" service aspect that the Bible does, merely set forth codes of conduct that were the baseline requisite for salvation. Works in Christianity have no bearing on salvation, and even in Judaism, a savior is a key part of the theology.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Sep 23 2004, 01:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Sep 23 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->your argument is outdated mythology. Can you construct a mythos which agrees with the most extensive historical database over 4 to 6 millenia, a sound theology, mass delusion, many eyewitness reports of inexplicable events (by our understanding of nature),<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. All I have to do is base it on UFOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An advent of the last 50 years. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ezeekial saw the wheel in the sky? Sounds like a UFO to me. And there are ancient indian texts that describe things similar to a modern flying saucer.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually I think gnosticism is a better overall interpretation of scipture than christianity. And from what I recall of the Gnosticism thread from a while ago, you were unable to proove that it was any less true than christianity. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I missed that thread, but Gnosticism had it's root in teachers that charged extravagant ammounts of money for scrolls and books which were said to contain the true knowledge of salvation. Akin to the bastard people you see on TV today that claim a $1000 pledge to their "church" would cause blessing for you for all eternity. And only a $1000 dollar pledge, and only to their church, and not any other way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gnosticism can't be judged by the actions of its practitioners. Or would you have me blame christianity for the crusades?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ha. I'd hardly say that christianity "espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all". That being said, why create a good moral code when it would be so much more fun to create an "evil" one? Especially since people would just twist it to make it mean whatever they want anyway, just like with christianity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you pretty much pwned yourself there. It would be easyer to create a moral code that advocated, if nothing else, taking what you needed and not caring about anyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was that no matter what code I make, people will twist it to mean what they want it to mean. Just like they do with the 10 commandments and such. So why should I bother to create a "good" moral code? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I could even do it with less commandments... hell I can do it in one: "Treat thy neighbor as thou would wish to be treated". But like I said, this would be twisted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Christ, however, calls for service to people, and worship of God. Total selflessness. It's by definition, impossible to follow, so why create it? Why not something that everyone could follow, and could feel good about doing. Eg. Islam.
I also fail to see how Christian teaching isn't caring and humanitarian. I respect the fact that that's what you think, but in the long run, what you think doesn't matter much. If God exists and his moral code is the Bible's, then you do little more than add insult to injury when you say his requirements are biased or twisted in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let me make this clear. Even if I KNEW there was a God, I wouldn't change behavior AT ALL. God is an insult to my free will and I will not be his slave.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I certainly can't stand for a moral code that damns you just for being born, which you have no choice over, and damns you for ending your own life, even though you had no choice in being born. Sorry, I just don't buy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't damned for being born, you're damned for sin, for rebellion against God. In the Old Testament, you weren't held accountable unless you were old enough to understand what it was you were doing. Ultimately, we DO have choice whether to Sin or not, and THAT is our choice of where we want to end up in eternity. After that, only Christ is a way of reversing our original decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Suicide isn't a specifically unforgiveable sin, that's Catholic doctrine, that if you really want to defend, we can go into elsewhere. It is, however, an incredibly selfish thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might be selfish, but I consider it a right. You didn't have a choice in being born, so you should have a choice about your death. I've seen too many arguents from christians that use the "thou shalt not kill (a human)" commandment to 'prove' that suicide is a sin to believe that it is a catholic-only docterine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Continuing on this path is pointless and, more than likely, in violation of the forum rules. I was only pointing out that mearly because the bible was consistant (if indeed it is), doesn't make it significantly less dismissable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the bible is perfectly consistant and noncontradictory, then on the contrary. It is the only worldview worthy of thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only if it is also true. Which you cannot prove so stop acting like you can. It is this sort of arrogance that pisses of atheists and agnostics more than anything.
Never leave your religious discussion thread without Skulkbait <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While one can argue that the christian codes are good and generous , the structure of the Church is corrupt. What's the use of teaching nice principles when a "purified" "believer" kid can do nasty things (sins) and think he can get away with them by confessing them to a priest ? (speaking from personal experience)
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Sep 23 2004, 02:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Sep 23 2004, 02:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Sep 23 2004, 01:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Sep 23 2004, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->your argument is outdated mythology. Can you construct a mythos which agrees with the most extensive historical database over 4 to 6 millenia, a sound theology, mass delusion, many eyewitness reports of inexplicable events (by our understanding of nature),<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. All I have to do is base it on UFOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An advent of the last 50 years. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ezeekial saw the wheel in the sky? Sounds like a UFO to me. And there are ancient indian texts that describe things similar to a modern flying saucer. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um, you obviously haven't read ezekiel. The description of the "wheel" is *nothing* like an UFO.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gnosticism can't be judged by the actions of its practitioners. Or would you have me blame christianity for the crusades?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I must have missed this thread also. Gnosticism is terribly flawed, theologically, scripturally, and morally. It's inconsistent with Jesus' preaching, as well. I really don't feel like going through all the scripture to attack gnosticism, but here are some links, and you should consider the fact that all of Christ's apostles were vigorously opposed to Gnosticism, which was concocted by non-eyewitnesses, and people who weren't familiar at all with Jesus, only from hearsay. I have no idea how you could think that gnosticism is more accurately descriptive of the gospels than the orthodox view.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My point was that no matter what code I make, people will twist it to mean what they want it to mean. Just like they do with the 10 commandments and such. So why should I bother to create a "good" moral code? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I could even do it with less commandments... hell I can do it in one: "Treat thy neighbor as thou would wish to be treated". But like I said, this would be twisted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh-oh, i'm a sadomasochist. plus, you've just taken one of the core tenets of Christianity. your experiment = failed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Suicide isn't a specifically unforgiveable sin, that's Catholic doctrine, that if you really want to defend, we can go into elsewhere. It is, however, an incredibly selfish thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might be selfish, but I consider it a right. You didn't have a choice in being born, so you should have a choice about your death. I've seen too many arguents from christians that use the "thou shalt not kill (a human)" commandment to 'prove' that suicide is a sin to believe that it is a catholic-only docterine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
suicide is a sin, but it's not unforgiveable - you mistake yourself. it's like saying that you have a right to total your mom's car, cause you felt like it. if you feel that that's a right and not a privilege... then you're messed up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You aren't damned for being born, you're damned for sin, for rebellion against God. In the Old Testament, you weren't held accountable unless you were old enough to understand what it was you were doing. Ultimately, we DO have choice whether to Sin or not, and THAT is our choice of where we want to end up in eternity. After that, only Christ is a way of reversing our original decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um, i'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you choose to deny God, that's your choice. If you choose to live a life that is contradictory to Him, how can you claim it's unfair when he gives you the result of that choice?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me make this clear. Even if I KNEW there was a God, I wouldn't change behavior AT ALL. God is an insult to my free will and I will not be his slave. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so instead, you become a slave to yourself? you, who are at best a modestly decent person, without extensive knowledge or power or wisdom or love?
Nice.
Btw... BAHAHAHAHAHAH@ "I will not be his slave" and "In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin."
*edit*<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While one can argue that the christian codes are good and generous , the structure of the Church is corrupt. What's the use of teaching nice principles when a "purified" "believer" kid can do nasty things (sins) and think he can get away with them by confessing them to a priest ? (speaking from personal experience)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
confession is only a step to repentance. and yes, i think the catholic church has some messed up hierarchy going on, and that's why there was Martin Luther and John Calvin. But as all things, have you ever seen a kid whose parents spoiled him and didn't teach him values?
If God is so perfect why did he create sinners and other religions then. If he knows someone who is born wont believe in him why wont he just not make them be. Being and all powerful he is, why doesnt he stop crime and be a super hero.
To me all religion is about is hope thats about it. All you can do is hope their is a God and that their is a after life. To me it seems like human instinct to hope that when we die the lights dont go out and nothing more. We dont want to be scared of dieing so we pray that their is something after when our lives are over. It would suck though if you spend your entire life praying for nothing just to find out when you die its game over.
Its just like Risk. Roll the dice and pray that your numbers are higher than the other. Or in another sence you hope your religion is right and there's are wrong. Hope that a God exists and that hes on your side.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Sep 23 2004, 03:22 PM --></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 23 2004, 03:22 PM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> My point was that no matter what code I make, people will twist it to mean what they want it to mean. Just like they do with the 10 commandments and such. So why should I bother to create a "good" moral code? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I could even do it with less commandments... hell I can do it in one: "Treat thy neighbor as thou would wish to be treated". But like I said, this would be twisted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh-oh, i'm a sadomasochist. plus, you've just taken one of the core tenets of Christianity. your experiment = failed.
Oh, I can't copy from christianity? Even though that idea existed long before christianity used it as a base for its moral principles? fine then. New ONE commandment: "Do anything you like, so long as it doesn't hurt anybody". Thats probably a christian ideal too though isn't it? My point still stands, no matter what moral code is written it will be interpreted however the reader wants
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Suicide isn't a specifically unforgiveable sin, that's Catholic doctrine, that if you really want to defend, we can go into elsewhere. It is, however, an incredibly selfish thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might be selfish, but I consider it a right. You didn't have a choice in being born, so you should have a choice about your death. I've seen too many arguents from christians that use the "thou shalt not kill (a human)" commandment to 'prove' that suicide is a sin to believe that it is a catholic-only docterine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
suicide is a sin, but it's not unforgiveable - you mistake yourself. it's like saying that you have a right to total your mom's car, cause you felt like it. if you feel that that's a right and not a privilege... then you're messed up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But my body is not my mothers car now is it? Its MY body, and MY life. I can kill my self if I want to, its my right. If God exists and has a problem with that, then **** him. Personally I take it as proof that a)Christianity is not the true faith, or at the very least b) Christians twist the word of their God to mean whatever they want it to mean. Either way, I could never believe such ****. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You aren't damned for being born, you're damned for sin, for rebellion against God. In the Old Testament, you weren't held accountable unless you were old enough to understand what it was you were doing. Ultimately, we DO have choice whether to Sin or not, and THAT is our choice of where we want to end up in eternity. After that, only Christ is a way of reversing our original decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um, i'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you choose to deny God, that's your choice. If you choose to live a life that is contradictory to Him, how can you claim it's unfair when he gives you the result of that choice? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What does that have to do with what I said? I was pointing out that a)God creates you, you have no choice in this, b) By the time you are old enough to be judged, no matter what you did in the meantime, you are tainted by original sin JUST FOR BEING BORN, which YOU HAD NO CONTROL OVER.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me make this clear. Even if I KNEW there was a God, I wouldn't change behavior AT ALL. God is an insult to my free will and I will not be his slave. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so instead, you become a slave to yourself? you, who are at best a modestly decent person, without extensive knowledge or power or wisdom or love?
Nice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, I should be God's **** because hes bigger and stronger? Sorry, that doesn't sit well with me. And its imposible to be a slave to yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Btw... BAHAHAHAHAHAH@ "I will not be his slave" and "In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin."
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Sep 23 2004, 03:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Sep 23 2004, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But my body is not my mothers car now is it? Its MY body, and MY life. I can kill my self if I want to, its my right. If God exists and has a problem with that, then **** him. Personally I take it as proof that a)Christianity is not the true faith, or at the very least b) Christians twist the word of their God to mean whatever they want it to mean. Either way, I could never believe such ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> nice, so the person who created you doesn't really own you? I'll make sure to visit your house next time, steal it *edit* (your car), run it into a tree, and claim that your car just decided to run away from you because it was being unfairly treated. I mean, it had no choice about being created now did it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What does that have to do with what I said? I was pointing out that a)God creates you, you have no choice in this, b) By the time you are old enough to be judged, no matter what you did in the meantime, you are tainted by original sin JUST FOR BEING BORN, which YOU HAD NO CONTROL OVER. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
refer to above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so instead, you become a slave to yourself? you, who are at best a modestly decent person, without extensive knowledge or power or wisdom or love?
Nice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, I should be God's **** because hes bigger and stronger? Sorry, that doesn't sit well with me. And its imposible to be a slave to yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and smarter, and wiser, and more loving, and all-around *better*?
Isn't that why kids are supposed to learn from their parents?
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Sep 23 2004, 04:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Sep 23 2004, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But my body is not my mothers car now is it? Its MY body, and MY life. I can kill my self if I want to, its my right. If God exists and has a problem with that, then **** him. Personally I take it as proof that a)Christianity is not the true faith, or at the very least b) Christians twist the word of their God to mean whatever they want it to mean. Either way, I could never believe such ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> nice, so the person who created you doesn't really own you? I'll make sure to visit your house next time, steal it, run it into a tree, and claim that your car just decided to run away from you because it was being unfairly treated. I mean, it had no choice about being created now did it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, this is the WORST analogy I have ever heard in my entire life. If my car decided to run away on its own and kill itslef, then I would have to respect its decision as a living intellegent being. But of course my car is not an intellegent being with free will now is it?
However, humans have free will (supposedly) so IMO they should have the right to kill themselves if they choose, because they had no choice in being born. And like I said before, God, despite what he may think, doesn't own me, even if he created me. Parents don't own their children do they?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so instead, you become a slave to yourself? you, who are at best a modestly decent person, without extensive knowledge or power or wisdom or love?
Nice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, I should be God's **** because hes bigger and stronger? Sorry, that doesn't sit well with me. And its imposible to be a slave to yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and smarter, and wiser, and more loving, and all-around *better*?
Isn't that why kids are supposed to learn from their parents?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A slave is still a slave. A **** is still a ****. doesn't matter who they are a slave too. I won't live my life in service to a being who has done NOTHING for me besides throw me on this horrid little planet full phsycopaths without my permission, and then have the nerve to ask that I be his servant. Go **** yourself God.
And no, kids aren't supposed to learn from their parent's because they are "better" but becuase no one else wants to take that responsibility because they weren't the dumb **** who decided to have kids.
<!--QuoteBegin-Marine01+Sep 22 2004, 02:51 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 22 2004, 02:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Swift, several immediate concerns leap to mind with your interpretation of the Bible. First of which is as follows - why did an all powerful God do such a shoddy job? Why does he allow in a book that contains his primary form of communication with Christians to contain so many errors? Why did he, when he came to Earth, constantly quote from these flawed writings? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because if god could pass on wisdom with perfection, <b>we wouldn't have any freaking problems now, would we?</b> God would have just given you a formula to save your life, and you insert the variables of your personal existence into it.
What SwiftSpears explanations boil down to is the fact that the bible in each and every form has undergone unbelievable amounts of re-writes, edits, translations and intentional manipulations. Might as well stick gods word in Babelfish, translate it back and forth 50 times and hope to get something workable from it (And yes, I'm aware of the availability of original language sources - those are however still have a multitude of factors falsifying them, and making them hard to accurately interpret, seeing as how those languages are in that form not used nowadays).
So when we come right down to it, we can say that the bible is not more than a heavily diluted source of gods word. If you look long and hard you might find the underlying grains of wisdom - but thats like looking through the I&S forum for good ideas. The perhaps most important message is that god is everywhere, and as such the most undiluted source of gods wisdom is the closest one, not the furthest.
And what is the closest source, if god is everywhere? Well, I'm sure you can answer that one for yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+Sep 23 2004, 03:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath @ Sep 23 2004, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If God is so perfect why did he create sinners and other religions then. If he knows someone who is born wont believe in him why wont he just not make them be. Being and all powerful he is, why doesnt he stop crime and be a super hero.
To me all religion is about is hope thats about it. All you can do is hope their is a God and that their is a after life. To me it seems like human instinct to hope that when we die the lights dont go out and nothing more. We dont want to be scared of dieing so we pray that their is something after when our lives are over. It would suck though if you spend your entire life praying for nothing just to find out when you die its game over.
Its just like Risk. Roll the dice and pray that your numbers are higher than the other. Or in another sence you hope your religion is right and there's are wrong. Hope that a God exists and that hes on your side.
Religious discussions are fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God didn't create sinners and other religions, God created free will, and free will allows people to choose sin. The popular theory that all evil in the world is the root of sin back in the day. Think about it, if no one ever knew that violence was possible, and never really thought about the prospect, there simply would be no violence in the world. Simialrly, if no one had a real concept of what sin was, and they had never seen any real exapmles of it becuase there was no precident to it in the past, who would be sinning? There is no way that evil could spread because no one commits evil against anyone else, and thus no one knows how to do it.
But because we all have free will, and the freedom to take that wherever we want, sin and other religions run rampant, because people back in the day choose them, and the precident is set, that they are easily recognizable and easy to do because they are common in the world.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because if god could pass on wisdom with perfection, <b>we wouldn't have any freaking problems now, would we?</b> God would have just given you a formula to save your life, and you insert the variables of your personal existence into it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? My parents have, on multiple occasions, given me some critically good advice and I've ignored it, sometimes doing the wrong thing even when I knew it was wrong. Humans have ignored law and order and morality for thousands of years, and you're going to stick the blame on God for not explaining things clearly enough? If that's the case, than his Bible is automatically disproved as anything from God, because it lays down heaps of clear cut guidelines, and people have been breaking them for years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What SwiftSpears explanations boil down to is the fact that the bible in each and every form has undergone unbelievable amounts of re-writes, edits, translations and intentional manipulations. Might as well stick gods word in Babelfish, translate it back and forth 50 times and hope to get something workable from it (And yes, I'm aware of the availability of original language sources - those are however still have a multitude of factors falsifying them, and making them hard to accurately interpret, seeing as how those languages are in that form not used nowadays).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it. Show me the verses that have been warped. And yes, you'd better hope it all happened before 100AD, because what they had then and what we have now are about 97% the same, with all variations in words that dont actually change meaning of passages. Interesting that all this warping, manipulation and translational errors were rampant right up until the septuagint and various other early sources, then spent the next 2000 years with nearly zero changes. Interesting that many of the events they reported on were corroborated by secular historians as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So when we come right down to it, we can say that the bible is not more than a heavily diluted source of gods word. If you look long and hard you might find the underlying grains of wisdom - but thats like looking through the I&S forum for good ideas. The perhaps most important message is that god is everywhere, and as such the most undiluted source of gods wisdom is the closest one, not the furthest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offence intended, but have you actually read it? I tell you right now I havent read it all, and I am quite seriously about it - the comparison between I&S and the Bible couldnt be further apart. You make it sound like a garbled, incoherent message that has to be deciphered - which is why I'm wondering if you actually read the same book I did. Here's what I find ironic - if this book promoted nothing but what you actually agreed with, then you'd fall to your knees in wonder of the power of an Almighty God whose message was clearly infallible and rock solid, but because it tells you to do things you dont wish to do, you refuse to take it seriously. Surely God has dropped the ball here, he wouldnt order me to do anything socially unpopular, he wouldnt ask me to die for him, he wouldnt want me to wait until marriage before I consumate my relationship etc....
The problem with the "closer" source is that it becomes a free for all. One man claims God told him to steal from his neighbour, one man claims that God told him homosexuals should be executed, and one man was told that all Europe should pick up shop and head to the Middle East to liberate Jerusalem. How can you know whose right, how do you be 100% sure its God speaking and not your own selfish desires?
You cant be, which is why the Bible is of critical importance. It's what God has said before, so you cross check everything against it - this God doesnt contradict himself.
Comments
lolz <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I probably shouldn't but I did laugh uncontrollably.
Bit long, but worth the read.
And I agree - however that is not all that 1 Timothy is trying to show.
Throughout the Bible, God uses patterns and pictures to show his people what he desires of them, and to explain his relationship to them. The sacrificial system is a picture of Christ, marriage is a picture of God and his people, Shepherds and sheep - likewise a picture of God and his relationship to us.
Going into the argument with this "pictoral" mindset helps me understand why God would not give women the same roles as men. In the picture of marriage, we (as God's people) are the bride - He protects and cares for us. He leads us. If you read Song of Solomon you see roles (somewhat steriotypical) being placed on men and women the entire book. Likewise, when we approach church government, it follows that we should look at the pattern God gives to us, and attempt to follow that pattern.
Does that mean that women can't be teachers? No, many women are blessed with extrordinary teaching ability (my wife included). Does that mean they should be elders and ministers? No. Rather, they should exercise their God given abilities to be deconesses - servants in the church uplifting the members.
I say that simply because God does not, or at least, has not in the past, considered it inappropriate to have women in authority over men, even at the highest level. Eg, Deborah the prophetess in Judges 4.
Firstly, the one who placed Deborah in authority was God himself, according to Judges 2:16. This is important, since she was very authoritative in Israel according to ch. 4:4. there is no evidence in the text that she was under anyone else's authority.
Secondly, Paul cites Genesis 3 liberally in 1 Tim 2, and those literal restrictions, as well as symbolic representations, were still present at the time of Deborah's judgeship.
If we view 1 Tim 2:12 as a moral absolute, we condemn God for his actions with Deborah.
I believe that Paul was concerned about turmoil in the Ephesian church, and the women in the church were forbidden to teach because they caused some, if not most of the trouble. Paul backed up his position with Gen 3:16, showing good reason behind Gods ruling that husbands were to be the head of the home, and that ruling wasn't to be undermined in the church. However, if conditions did not threaten the stability of the church due to turmoil or confusion in ceremonies, then the ban on teaching would not apply. If, finally, men were not accepting of the responsibility of leadership, then women may certainly lead.
I believe that the transcripts of the radio programs I listen to on NPR aren't the words of the hosts, because they were transcribed by someone else. ::rolleyes::
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Out of all the counter-arguments to my statement yours is by far the worst. tsk tsk <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's inspired by God, and most christains belive that God hasn't allowed any inconsistancies into its words. At very least Christians belive that the whole bible is valuable, and good for teaching, becuase that is pretty much exactly what one of the more famous and authoritive quotes from Paul says.
Personally I work under the assumption that the bible is underlied with truth and it is the intentional word of God, but that being said, I don't belive it should be read at literal value becuase there are way to many contridictions and oversimplifications at the literal level, and I find it far more likely that God is trying to say things at a very complicated level that is veiled by the author's inability to understand and comprehend the word, than the probablility that God says crude and simplistic things that the author's didn't hear properly, and thus used vauge and indescripive language to discribe.
From my experiance reading the bible, when God articulates something on a simple level, which the author then scribes, there is really no mistaking his intentions or his motovations. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion the reason that there are contradictions and so forth points to the idea that the Bible is alot more "Man inspired" than "God inspired".
The fact that women are not supposed to hold official roles in the Church is hardly surprising. For centuries men have dominated women in most cultures. It was not all that long ago that women were not allowed to vote in the good ol USA. So why should religion be any different ?
After all, Eve is supposed to have come from Adam, and thus is secondary - "a companion" if you will. Eve tempted Adam of course, which seems to indicate that women are more to blame than men for being kicked out of Eden...etc etc. Again, this illustrates the dominant sex making sure that women hold a secondary role even in matters of faith.
This is from an ex-Christian's perspective. The bible IMO is - amongst other things - simply man's attempt at explaining his origins and the world around him (and subjugating woman as an added bonus).
The fact that women are not supposed to hold official roles in the Church is hardly surprising. For centuries men have dominated women in most cultures. It was not all that long ago that women were not allowed to vote in the good ol USA. So why should religion be any different ?
After all, Eve is supposed to have come from Adam, and thus is secondary - "a companion" if you will. Eve tempted Adam of course, which seems to indicate that women are more to blame than men for being kicked out of Eden...etc etc. Again, this illustrates the dominant sex making sure that women hold a secondary role even in matters of faith.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've never seen a fully conclusive proof that the bible is as ridden with contradictions as skeptics would like to believe. There was a rather comprehensive list of supposed contradictions floating around here a while ago, but Tektonics.org shot it full of more holes than swiss cheese.
Unless it can be proved that the bible is in fact flawed, it's painfully difficult to dismiss it as outdated mythology.
On the contrary, its still rather easy to dismiss it as outdated mythology. I could write a similar fiction that was internally consistant, but that wouldn't make it any more true.
Why should I be forced to believe in something that is afraid to show itself in some body form or message in the sky. Only way I can truely believe that some God exists is if he comes down from the sky and go "HAH I EXIST" and wink an eye at me. Or when the time comes when I die and hope (50/50 chance) that some after life is there or something. I would prefer reincarnation instead of a eternity in heaven. Even if it is perfect after a while change is good ^_^
So as I sit in my chair a New Testament Bible (Holy Roman Catholic) stacked away under other books. I sit here and just live my simple life, not breaking any laws and trying to stay as happy as I can ever be. Thats as simple as it is for me. Just be happy and live my life.
So there remains my only question left. Since science believe it knows how big the universe is now the only question left is. Is there a God or not?
SVASTIKAH <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
On the contrary, its still rather easy to dismiss it as outdated mythology. I could write a similar fiction that was internally consistant, but that wouldn't make it any more true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
your argument is outdated mythology. Can you construct a mythos which agrees with the most extensive historical database over 4 to 6 millenia, a sound theology, mass delusion, many eyewitness reports of inexplicable events (by our understanding of nature), and prophetic revelation, that is sustainable, has a solid moral code, and espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all?
Guess not - the mormons have tried, and failed, the gnostics have tried, and failed, the older pagan mythologies tried, and failed. See a pattern here? Most credible philosophers agree that the Bible sets forth the soundest moral code that has ever been invented, and guess what, I'm willing to bet that if we can't do it in 3500 years of trying extremely hard, there's a reason behind it.
(Namely, it can't be done.)
Yes. All I have to do is base it on UFOs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->has a solid moral code, and espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha. I'd hardly say that christianity "espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all". That being said, why create a good moral code when it would be so much more fun to create an "evil" one? Especially since people would just twist it to make it mean whatever they want anyway, just like with christianity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guess not - the mormons have tried, and failed, the gnostics have tried, and failed<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I think gnosticism is a better overall interpretation of scipture than christianity. And from what I recall of the Gnosticism thread from a while ago, you were unable to proove that it was any less true than christianity.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->See a pattern here? Most credible philosophers agree that the Bible sets forth the soundest moral code that has ever been invented.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't give a rats **** about what philosophers YOU consider credible think. I certainly can't stand for a moral code that damns you just for being born, which you have no choice over, and damns you for ending your own life, even though you had no choice in being born. Sorry, I just don't buy it.
Continuing on this path is pointless and, more than likely, in violation of the forum rules. I was only pointing out that mearly because the bible was consistant (if indeed it is), doesn't make it significantly less dismissable.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> (jesus)
Secondly I don’t think you can argue someone into Christianity. If anything I think you will most likely push them away from God. So rather, I recommend getting them drunk and seducing them with Jesus’ sweet sweet love. Anyways, I’m outages… God Bless!!
If you are born and grow up in the world with no food, and I know I can help you, but my ethical obligation, being a superior being, who knows that you can't understand the gift I am giving you unless you want it enough to explore it once you have it, is to only give you food if you ask for it, what should I do? God made us, and he made us, and he decided that we were gonna be cooler and better then everything else he made, by making us a little bit like him and giving us an unpredictible factor called free choice. Unfortunate thing is, the allowance of powerful beings to have free choice, is they can conciously choose self distruction, and without either taking it away from us, or distroying the potential benifits of free choice, there is nothing God can do about it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dunno about you, but this God doesn't seem to be a nice guy. Why would he have men write a book when he (Being the creator and all) just write a message in the sky. I think he's lazy or something :/ I dunno about you, but this God doesn't seem to be a nice guy. Why would he have men write a book when he (Being the creator and all) just write a message in the sky. I think he's lazy or something :/<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God writes messages all over the place, ask any micro physicist, any jewish rabbi, any religious figure from any religion, hell ask him. Thing is, he can't force you to see who he really is, you have to look at him. If I hold a sign up in the middle of the city, you still have to look at what the sign says in order to read it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why should I be forced to believe in something that is afraid to show itself in some body form or message in the sky. Only way I can truely believe that some God exists is if he comes down from the sky and go "HAH I EXIST" and wink an eye at me. Or when the time comes when I die and hope (50/50 chance) that some after life is there or something. I would prefer reincarnation instead of a eternity in heaven. Even if it is perfect after a while change is good ^_^<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eternity in heaven is an oversimplification, no one would be happy being stuck doing the same things for all of eternity, so when God says eternity in paradise, I personally think that he has a little more planned then I can really imagine, after all, were I to have never seen the world before, I really doubt that I could have come up with it, but he did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So as I sit in my chair a New Testament Bible (Holy Roman Catholic) stacked away under other books. I sit here and just live my simple life, not breaking any laws and trying to stay as happy as I can ever be. Thats as simple as it is for me. Just be happy and live my life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much, I search for ratification in the exeriance of life, and I revel in the love of God, but the human story the way anyone tells it is really a pointless one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So there remains my only question left. Since science believe it knows how big the universe is now the only question left is. Is there a God or not?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Science knows how far apart the farthest out stars are, if your concept of size is simply cofined to the width lenght and hieght of something, then yes, science knows how big it is. But if I refer to someone as a 'Big man' I am saying something about thier character, not nessicarily thier girth or height, so there is room in our big universe for the character of God?
::SVASTIKAH removed from quotes::
Yes. All I have to do is base it on UFOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An advent of the last 50 years. Out of the hundreds of people described in detail in the scriptures, I can only think of 4 that were 'taken up into heaven,' the closest thing to abduction in scripture. The only one to tell about it says nothing about the probing that contemporary 'witnesses' to UFOs speak of. This isn't consistant at all with Paul's account, and one of them must be wrong. Either that, or there are two types of aliens, one that shows people an elaborate vision of heaven and joy, the other that look like grays and rams things in people's orifices.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually I think gnosticism is a better overall interpretation of scipture than christianity. And from what I recall of the Gnosticism thread from a while ago, you were unable to proove that it was any less true than christianity.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I missed that thread, but Gnosticism had it's root in teachers that charged extravagant ammounts of money for scrolls and books which were said to contain the true knowledge of salvation. Akin to the bastard people you see on TV today that claim a $1000 pledge to their "church" would cause blessing for you for all eternity. And only a $1000 dollar pledge, and only to their church, and not any other way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ha. I'd hardly say that christianity "espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all". That being said, why create a good moral code when it would be so much more fun to create an "evil" one? Especially since people would just twist it to make it mean whatever they want anyway, just like with christianity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you pretty much pwned yourself there. It would be easyer to create a moral code that advocated, if nothing else, taking what you needed and not caring about anyone else.
Christ, however, calls for service to people, and worship of God. Total selflessness. It's by definition, impossible to follow, so why create it? Why not something that everyone could follow, and could feel good about doing. Eg. Islam.
I also fail to see how Christian teaching isn't caring and humanitarian. I respect the fact that that's what you think, but in the long run, what you think doesn't matter much. If God exists and his moral code is the Bible's, then you do little more than add insult to injury when you say his requirements are biased or twisted in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I certainly can't stand for a moral code that damns you just for being born, which you have no choice over, and damns you for ending your own life, even though you had no choice in being born. Sorry, I just don't buy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't damned for being born, you're damned for sin, for rebellion against God. In the Old Testament, you weren't held accountable unless you were old enough to understand what it was you were doing. Ultimately, we DO have choice whether to Sin or not, and THAT is our choice of where we want to end up in eternity. After that, only Christ is a way of reversing our original decision.
Suicide isn't a specifically unforgiveable sin, that's Catholic doctrine, that if you really want to defend, we can go into elsewhere. It is, however, an incredibly selfish thing to do.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Continuing on this path is pointless and, more than likely, in violation of the forum rules. I was only pointing out that mearly because the bible was consistant (if indeed it is), doesn't make it significantly less dismissable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the bible is perfectly consistant and noncontradictory, then on the contrary. It is the only worldview worthy of thought.
No other religions follow this Law of Non-contradiction, some eastern religions would go so far as to say that it doesn't matter, ultimatly, if things contradict each other or not, which is flat out illogical.
Even secular humanism teaches some morality, without a solid claim as to why that morality is important. Sure, as a society, altruism may have caused prosperity, but why is it important on a personal basis? Why can't I shoot coke and kill myself? Why is my life important? Humanism leaves no answer to these questions, and assigns no value to life, yet insists life is to be protected.
Then why are there whole worldviews that DO claim a form of nothingness? If it's not something Humans can percieve, why are there whole religions based around it?
I think you pretty much pwned yourself there. It would be easyer to create a moral code that advocated, if nothing else, taking what you needed and not caring about anyone else.
Christ, however, calls for service to people, and worship of God. Total selflessness. It's by definition, impossible to follow, so why create it? Why not something that everyone could follow, and could feel good about doing. Eg. Islam.
I also fail to see how Christian teaching isn't caring and humanitarian. I respect the fact that that's what you think, but in the long run, what you think doesn't matter much. If God exists and his moral code is the Bible's, then you do little more than add insult to injury when you say his requirements are biased or twisted in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Random history lesson, the actions of the early christians in the first rize of chritianity under the Roman empire, easily constitute the greatest humanitarian movement of all time. Christians, on mass, aided the sick at thier own expence, spread money gratuitously among the poor, rescued untold numbers of abandoned infants (infant abandonment was as much a part of Roman culture as adoption or abortion is to us), and generally could be considered the most upstanding factor in that sociaty. This is often acredited as the reason that the birth of christianity constituded the fastest population bloom ever experianced by a religion, in spite of the fact that the religion itself was widely persecuted by the authority structures it grew under.
Random religious lesson, The muslim law code contains pretty much everything that the jewish law code does, and includes service to people, worship of God, and total selflessness. The only thing that can be argued that christians must do that the muslims are not commanded to to, is to love all people as much as they love themselfs. What you percieve as failings in the muslim law code, are due to people trying to do as little as possible and still be considered religious, and I would point out that there are millions of christians that do that too.
Does that make it right? Millions of Christians do it, yes, but they shouldn't.
Islam doesn't, to my knowledge, teach the total "give up your life and follow me" service aspect that the Bible does, merely set forth codes of conduct that were the baseline requisite for salvation. Works in Christianity have no bearing on salvation, and even in Judaism, a savior is a key part of the theology.
Yes. All I have to do is base it on UFOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An advent of the last 50 years.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ezeekial saw the wheel in the sky? Sounds like a UFO to me. And there are ancient indian texts that describe things similar to a modern flying saucer.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually I think gnosticism is a better overall interpretation of scipture than christianity. And from what I recall of the Gnosticism thread from a while ago, you were unable to proove that it was any less true than christianity.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I missed that thread, but Gnosticism had it's root in teachers that charged extravagant ammounts of money for scrolls and books which were said to contain the true knowledge of salvation. Akin to the bastard people you see on TV today that claim a $1000 pledge to their "church" would cause blessing for you for all eternity. And only a $1000 dollar pledge, and only to their church, and not any other way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gnosticism can't be judged by the actions of its practitioners. Or would you have me blame christianity for the crusades?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ha. I'd hardly say that christianity "espouses the most caring and humanitarian set of ideologies of all". That being said, why create a good moral code when it would be so much more fun to create an "evil" one? Especially since people would just twist it to make it mean whatever they want anyway, just like with christianity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you pretty much pwned yourself there. It would be easyer to create a moral code that advocated, if nothing else, taking what you needed and not caring about anyone else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point was that no matter what code I make, people will twist it to mean what they want it to mean. Just like they do with the 10 commandments and such. So why should I bother to create a "good" moral code? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I could even do it with less commandments... hell I can do it in one: "Treat thy neighbor as thou would wish to be treated". But like I said, this would be twisted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Christ, however, calls for service to people, and worship of God. Total selflessness. It's by definition, impossible to follow, so why create it? Why not something that everyone could follow, and could feel good about doing. Eg. Islam.
I also fail to see how Christian teaching isn't caring and humanitarian. I respect the fact that that's what you think, but in the long run, what you think doesn't matter much. If God exists and his moral code is the Bible's, then you do little more than add insult to injury when you say his requirements are biased or twisted in the first place.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me make this clear. Even if I KNEW there was a God, I wouldn't change behavior AT ALL. God is an insult to my free will and I will not be his slave.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I certainly can't stand for a moral code that damns you just for being born, which you have no choice over, and damns you for ending your own life, even though you had no choice in being born. Sorry, I just don't buy it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't damned for being born, you're damned for sin, for rebellion against God. In the Old Testament, you weren't held accountable unless you were old enough to understand what it was you were doing. Ultimately, we DO have choice whether to Sin or not, and THAT is our choice of where we want to end up in eternity. After that, only Christ is a way of reversing our original decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Suicide isn't a specifically unforgiveable sin, that's Catholic doctrine, that if you really want to defend, we can go into elsewhere. It is, however, an incredibly selfish thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might be selfish, but I consider it a right. You didn't have a choice in being born, so you should have a choice about your death. I've seen too many arguents from christians that use the "thou shalt not kill (a human)" commandment to 'prove' that suicide is a sin to believe that it is a catholic-only docterine.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Continuing on this path is pointless and, more than likely, in violation of the forum rules. I was only pointing out that mearly because the bible was consistant (if indeed it is), doesn't make it significantly less dismissable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the bible is perfectly consistant and noncontradictory, then on the contrary. It is the only worldview worthy of thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only if it is also true. Which you cannot prove so stop acting like you can. It is this sort of arrogance that pisses of atheists and agnostics more than anything.
While one can argue that the christian codes are good and generous , the structure of the Church is corrupt. What's the use of teaching nice principles when a "purified" "believer" kid can do nasty things (sins) and think he can get away with them by confessing them to a priest ? (speaking from personal experience)
Yes. All I have to do is base it on UFOs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An advent of the last 50 years.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ezeekial saw the wheel in the sky? Sounds like a UFO to me. And there are ancient indian texts that describe things similar to a modern flying saucer.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um, you obviously haven't read ezekiel. The description of the "wheel" is *nothing* like an UFO.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Gnosticism can't be judged by the actions of its practitioners. Or would you have me blame christianity for the crusades?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I must have missed this thread also. Gnosticism is terribly flawed, theologically, scripturally, and morally. It's inconsistent with Jesus' preaching, as well. I really don't feel like going through all the scripture to attack gnosticism, but here are some links, and you should consider the fact that all of Christ's apostles were vigorously opposed to Gnosticism, which was concocted by non-eyewitnesses, and people who weren't familiar at all with Jesus, only from hearsay. I have no idea how you could think that gnosticism is more accurately descriptive of the gospels than the orthodox view.
<a href='http://www.ibcz.ch/newsletter/2july.html' target='_blank'>1</a> <a href='http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385029551/qid=1095970420/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-4483081-3422215?v=glance&s=books&n=507846' target='_blank'>2</a> <a href='http://www.ccel.org/fathers/ANF-01/iren/' target='_blank'>3</a> <a href='http://cyberspacei.com/jesusi/inlight/religion/christianity/christianity/3.htm#_Toc501939934' target='_blank'>4</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
My point was that no matter what code I make, people will twist it to mean what they want it to mean. Just like they do with the 10 commandments and such. So why should I bother to create a "good" moral code? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I could even do it with less commandments... hell I can do it in one: "Treat thy neighbor as thou would wish to be treated". But like I said, this would be twisted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh-oh, i'm a sadomasochist. plus, you've just taken one of the core tenets of Christianity. your experiment = failed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Suicide isn't a specifically unforgiveable sin, that's Catholic doctrine, that if you really want to defend, we can go into elsewhere. It is, however, an incredibly selfish thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might be selfish, but I consider it a right. You didn't have a choice in being born, so you should have a choice about your death. I've seen too many arguents from christians that use the "thou shalt not kill (a human)" commandment to 'prove' that suicide is a sin to believe that it is a catholic-only docterine.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
suicide is a sin, but it's not unforgiveable - you mistake yourself. it's like saying that you have a right to total your mom's car, cause you felt like it. if you feel that that's a right and not a privilege... then you're messed up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You aren't damned for being born, you're damned for sin, for rebellion against God. In the Old Testament, you weren't held accountable unless you were old enough to understand what it was you were doing. Ultimately, we DO have choice whether to Sin or not, and THAT is our choice of where we want to end up in eternity. After that, only Christ is a way of reversing our original decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um, i'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you choose to deny God, that's your choice. If you choose to live a life that is contradictory to Him, how can you claim it's unfair when he gives you the result of that choice?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me make this clear. Even if I KNEW there was a God, I wouldn't change behavior AT ALL. God is an insult to my free will and I will not be his slave.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so instead, you become a slave to yourself? you, who are at best a modestly decent person, without extensive knowledge or power or wisdom or love?
Nice.
Btw... BAHAHAHAHAHAH@ "I will not be his slave" and "In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin."
*edit*<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While one can argue that the christian codes are good and generous , the structure of the Church is corrupt. What's the use of teaching nice principles when a "purified" "believer" kid can do nasty things (sins) and think he can get away with them by confessing them to a priest ? (speaking from personal experience)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
confession is only a step to repentance. and yes, i think the catholic church has some messed up hierarchy going on, and that's why there was Martin Luther and John Calvin. But as all things, have you ever seen a kid whose parents spoiled him and didn't teach him values?
No? Let me tell you, they're extremely messed up.
To me all religion is about is hope thats about it. All you can do is hope their is a God and that their is a after life. To me it seems like human instinct to hope that when we die the lights dont go out and nothing more. We dont want to be scared of dieing so we pray that their is something after when our lives are over. It would suck though if you spend your entire life praying for nothing just to find out when you die its game over.
Its just like Risk. Roll the dice and pray that your numbers are higher than the other. Or in another sence you hope your religion is right and there's are wrong. Hope that a God exists and that hes on your side.
Religious discussions are fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
My point was that no matter what code I make, people will twist it to mean what they want it to mean. Just like they do with the 10 commandments and such. So why should I bother to create a "good" moral code? I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I could even do it with less commandments... hell I can do it in one: "Treat thy neighbor as thou would wish to be treated". But like I said, this would be twisted to mean whatever the reader wants it to mean.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
uh-oh, i'm a sadomasochist. plus, you've just taken one of the core tenets of Christianity. your experiment = failed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, I can't copy from christianity? Even though that idea existed long before christianity used it as a base for its moral principles? fine then. New ONE commandment: "Do anything you like, so long as it doesn't hurt anybody". Thats probably a christian ideal too though isn't it? My point still stands, no matter what moral code is written it will be interpreted however the reader wants
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Suicide isn't a specifically unforgiveable sin, that's Catholic doctrine, that if you really want to defend, we can go into elsewhere. It is, however, an incredibly selfish thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It might be selfish, but I consider it a right. You didn't have a choice in being born, so you should have a choice about your death. I've seen too many arguents from christians that use the "thou shalt not kill (a human)" commandment to 'prove' that suicide is a sin to believe that it is a catholic-only docterine.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
suicide is a sin, but it's not unforgiveable - you mistake yourself. it's like saying that you have a right to total your mom's car, cause you felt like it. if you feel that that's a right and not a privilege... then you're messed up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But my body is not my mothers car now is it? Its MY body, and MY life. I can kill my self if I want to, its my right. If God exists and has a problem with that, then **** him. Personally I take it as proof that a)Christianity is not the true faith, or at the very least b) Christians twist the word of their God to mean whatever they want it to mean. Either way, I could never believe such ****.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You aren't damned for being born, you're damned for sin, for rebellion against God. In the Old Testament, you weren't held accountable unless you were old enough to understand what it was you were doing. Ultimately, we DO have choice whether to Sin or not, and THAT is our choice of where we want to end up in eternity. After that, only Christ is a way of reversing our original decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
um, i'm sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you choose to deny God, that's your choice. If you choose to live a life that is contradictory to Him, how can you claim it's unfair when he gives you the result of that choice?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does that have to do with what I said? I was pointing out that a)God creates you, you have no choice in this, b) By the time you are old enough to be judged, no matter what you did in the meantime, you are tainted by original sin JUST FOR BEING BORN, which YOU HAD NO CONTROL OVER.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me make this clear. Even if I KNEW there was a God, I wouldn't change behavior AT ALL. God is an insult to my free will and I will not be his slave.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so instead, you become a slave to yourself? you, who are at best a modestly decent person, without extensive knowledge or power or wisdom or love?
Nice.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, I should be God's **** because hes bigger and stronger? Sorry, that doesn't sit well with me. And its imposible to be a slave to yourself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Btw... BAHAHAHAHAHAH@ "I will not be his slave" and "In other words, God creates you and by the time you are old enough to be judged you WILL be damned. Little different than being born a sinner if you ask me. And of course, theres always original sin."
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read above. Fact is, you are a slave to a God, that may not even exist. Congradulations, Slave Wheee. Make massa' proud.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nice, so the person who created you doesn't really own you?
I'll make sure to visit your house next time, steal it *edit* (your car), run it into a tree, and claim that your car just decided to run away from you because it was being unfairly treated. I mean, it had no choice about being created now did it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
What does that have to do with what I said? I was pointing out that a)God creates you, you have no choice in this, b) By the time you are old enough to be judged, no matter what you did in the meantime, you are tainted by original sin JUST FOR BEING BORN, which YOU HAD NO CONTROL OVER.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
refer to above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
so instead, you become a slave to yourself? you, who are at best a modestly decent person, without extensive knowledge or power or wisdom or love?
Nice.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, I should be God's **** because hes bigger and stronger? Sorry, that doesn't sit well with me. And its imposible to be a slave to yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and smarter, and wiser, and more loving, and all-around *better*?
Isn't that why kids are supposed to learn from their parents?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nice, so the person who created you doesn't really own you?
I'll make sure to visit your house next time, steal it, run it into a tree, and claim that your car just decided to run away from you because it was being unfairly treated. I mean, it had no choice about being created now did it?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, this is the WORST analogy I have ever heard in my entire life. If my car decided to run away on its own and kill itslef, then I would have to respect its decision as a living intellegent being. But of course my car is not an intellegent being with free will now is it?
However, humans have free will (supposedly) so IMO they should have the right to kill themselves if they choose, because they had no choice in being born. And like I said before, God, despite what he may think, doesn't own me, even if he created me. Parents don't own their children do they?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
so instead, you become a slave to yourself? you, who are at best a modestly decent person, without extensive knowledge or power or wisdom or love?
Nice.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, I should be God's **** because hes bigger and stronger? Sorry, that doesn't sit well with me. And its imposible to be a slave to yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and smarter, and wiser, and more loving, and all-around *better*?
Isn't that why kids are supposed to learn from their parents?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A slave is still a slave. A **** is still a ****. doesn't matter who they are a slave too. I won't live my life in service to a being who has done NOTHING for me besides throw me on this horrid little planet full phsycopaths without my permission, and then have the nerve to ask that I be his servant. Go **** yourself God.
And no, kids aren't supposed to learn from their parent's because they are "better" but becuase no one else wants to take that responsibility because they weren't the dumb **** who decided to have kids.
Swift, several immediate concerns leap to mind with your interpretation of the Bible. First of which is as follows - why did an all powerful God do such a shoddy job? Why does he allow in a book that contains his primary form of communication with Christians to contain so many errors? Why did he, when he came to Earth, constantly quote from these flawed writings? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because if god could pass on wisdom with perfection, <b>we wouldn't have any freaking problems now, would we?</b> God would have just given you a formula to save your life, and you insert the variables of your personal existence into it.
What SwiftSpears explanations boil down to is the fact that the bible in each and every form has undergone unbelievable amounts of re-writes, edits, translations and intentional manipulations. Might as well stick gods word in Babelfish, translate it back and forth 50 times and hope to get something workable from it (And yes, I'm aware of the availability of original language sources - those are however still have a multitude of factors falsifying them, and making them hard to accurately interpret, seeing as how those languages are in that form not used nowadays).
So when we come right down to it, we can say that the bible is not more than a heavily diluted source of gods word. If you look long and hard you might find the underlying grains of wisdom - but thats like looking through the I&S forum for good ideas. The perhaps most important message is that god is everywhere, and as such the most undiluted source of gods wisdom is the closest one, not the furthest.
And what is the closest source, if god is everywhere? Well, I'm sure you can answer that one for yourself.
To me all religion is about is hope thats about it. All you can do is hope their is a God and that their is a after life. To me it seems like human instinct to hope that when we die the lights dont go out and nothing more. We dont want to be scared of dieing so we pray that their is something after when our lives are over. It would suck though if you spend your entire life praying for nothing just to find out when you die its game over.
Its just like Risk. Roll the dice and pray that your numbers are higher than the other. Or in another sence you hope your religion is right and there's are wrong. Hope that a God exists and that hes on your side.
Religious discussions are fun. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
God didn't create sinners and other religions, God created free will, and free will allows people to choose sin. The popular theory that all evil in the world is the root of sin back in the day. Think about it, if no one ever knew that violence was possible, and never really thought about the prospect, there simply would be no violence in the world. Simialrly, if no one had a real concept of what sin was, and they had never seen any real exapmles of it becuase there was no precident to it in the past, who would be sinning? There is no way that evil could spread because no one commits evil against anyone else, and thus no one knows how to do it.
But because we all have free will, and the freedom to take that wherever we want, sin and other religions run rampant, because people back in the day choose them, and the precident is set, that they are easily recognizable and easy to do because they are common in the world.
What? My parents have, on multiple occasions, given me some critically good advice and I've ignored it, sometimes doing the wrong thing even when I knew it was wrong. Humans have ignored law and order and morality for thousands of years, and you're going to stick the blame on God for not explaining things clearly enough? If that's the case, than his Bible is automatically disproved as anything from God, because it lays down heaps of clear cut guidelines, and people have been breaking them for years.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What SwiftSpears explanations boil down to is the fact that the bible in each and every form has undergone unbelievable amounts of re-writes, edits, translations and intentional manipulations. Might as well stick gods word in Babelfish, translate it back and forth 50 times and hope to get something workable from it (And yes, I'm aware of the availability of original language sources - those are however still have a multitude of factors falsifying them, and making them hard to accurately interpret, seeing as how those languages are in that form not used nowadays).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove it. Show me the verses that have been warped. And yes, you'd better hope it all happened before 100AD, because what they had then and what we have now are about 97% the same, with all variations in words that dont actually change meaning of passages. Interesting that all this warping, manipulation and translational errors were rampant right up until the septuagint and various other early sources, then spent the next 2000 years with nearly zero changes. Interesting that many of the events they reported on were corroborated by secular historians as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So when we come right down to it, we can say that the bible is not more than a heavily diluted source of gods word. If you look long and hard you might find the underlying grains of wisdom - but thats like looking through the I&S forum for good ideas. The perhaps most important message is that god is everywhere, and as such the most undiluted source of gods wisdom is the closest one, not the furthest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offence intended, but have you actually read it? I tell you right now I havent read it all, and I am quite seriously about it - the comparison between I&S and the Bible couldnt be further apart. You make it sound like a garbled, incoherent message that has to be deciphered - which is why I'm wondering if you actually read the same book I did. Here's what I find ironic - if this book promoted nothing but what you actually agreed with, then you'd fall to your knees in wonder of the power of an Almighty God whose message was clearly infallible and rock solid, but because it tells you to do things you dont wish to do, you refuse to take it seriously. Surely God has dropped the ball here, he wouldnt order me to do anything socially unpopular, he wouldnt ask me to die for him, he wouldnt want me to wait until marriage before I consumate my relationship etc....
The problem with the "closer" source is that it becomes a free for all. One man claims God told him to steal from his neighbour, one man claims that God told him homosexuals should be executed, and one man was told that all Europe should pick up shop and head to the Middle East to liberate Jerusalem. How can you know whose right, how do you be 100% sure its God speaking and not your own selfish desires?
You cant be, which is why the Bible is of critical importance. It's what God has said before, so you cross check everything against it - this God doesnt contradict himself.