Israel - America

amarc · June 2004

I've been doing alot of my own digging over the last few weeks. Conspiracy theories always interest me, though most are downright flights of fancy which I simply find amusing in discounting, some have so much supporting evidence I cannot help but try and prove/disprove them. The supposed link between America and Israel is often talked about in hushed tones in the mainstream media and raved about by crackpot theorists. I never really saw even a grain of truth in it before sheer boredom and curiosity turned up some interesting sources that pose the question - has America been compromised by Israeli/Zionist interests?
Before reading the rest of this post I encourage you to watch this <a href='http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli.wmv' target='_blank'>FOX news video</a> objectivley and draw your own conclusions.

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Done? Interesting viewing in itself, but FOX's actions afterwards can't help but raise a question or two...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Fox News, alone of all the media, actually ran the story as a four part broadcast, and put the story up on its web site. Then, without explanation, Fox News erased the story from their web site and have never mentioned it again. CNN followed by "Orwellizing" their report of the two hour advance warning of the WTC attacks sent to Odigo employees. But far more telling is the admission made by a US Official in part one of the Fox News report that hard evidence existed linking the events of 9/11 not to Arab Muslims, but to some of the more than 200 Israeli spies arrested both before and after 9/11, but that this evidence had been CLASSIFIED</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

In addtion to the <a href='http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring2.html' target='_blank'>dozens</a> of articles regarding supposed Mossad spying, I found the implication made in the aforementioned video and, more explicitely here, to be of particular interest for people like myself who take an interest in Interet happenings:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Now, in a chilling real life version of the plotline from "The Net", it turns out that the majority of the firewalls on US corporate and government computer systems are provided by just one company, Checkpoint Systems, which like Amdocs, Comverse Infosys, and Odigo, is <a href='http://www.checkpoint.com/corporate/contact_israel.html#intl_hq' target='_blank'>headquartered in Israel.</a></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

How could a nation afford to undertake such actions though? Well, apparantely...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Prior to 9/11, the FBI had discovered the presence of a massive spy ring inside the United States run by the government of Israel. This seems a harsh gratitude from a nation which obtains 10% of its annual budget from the American taxpayer, $3+ billion a year. Over the years, American taxpayers have been required to send Israel more than four times what the US spent to go to the moon.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

<a href='http://www.whatreallyhappened.com' target='_blank'>Source</a>

The website itself I have used heavily up until now is critical of many of the more dubious aspects of the world, not just incidents surrounding Israel. Though I'm not saying it has on objective viewpoint on things, it could hardly be considered anti-Semetic.

<a href='http://www.rense.com/general31/thr.htm' target='_blank'>This fascinating article</a> goes into great detail about the alleged "Zionist" movement and the harmful influence it wields in the U.S. I read this a while ago when someone linked it in a forum, I don't think it was <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=8c58b41c3a06e31ccbea27853f7c5b48&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=zionist' target='_blank'>here</a>
but if you have already seen it the re-reading is pretty beneficial in assessing it. Here's a taster:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>We have established that the Zionist controlled media has the ability to cover-up the facts contained in this paper, even after the stories had initially penetrated their own media screens. We have established that the Zionists have the power to ruin the careers of US Congressmen,

Senators, presidents, law enforcement officials, and journalists. Conversely, they also have the power to advance the careers of those who serve their interests. We have seen that they have the ability to block investigations as well misdirect and thwart existing investigations. We have established that the Zionists were the beneficiaries of the 9-11 attacks whereas the Arabs have been hurt greatly by the 9-11 attacks. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

- though a long read everything is backed up by verifiable sources and the insight into the past contains things I certainly wasn't taught about at school.

I am not a believer, nor am I convinced - whilst it certainly seems plausable until a smoking gun is found what are we meant to believe? One thing that I find highly unlikely is the assumption the journalists/law enforcers/politicians are apparantely pandering to the "Zionists" simply to advance their career. Entertain the possibility that the conspiracy is fact for a second and it seems unlikely the desire to build a career would cause so many of these (supposedly reputable) people to facilitate forgein control over their country? A weak link in the chain of the theory or is there simply another motivating factor behind their supposed actions in helping the "Zionists"?

So, over to you...

Marine0I · June 2004

Ohhhh my favourite - teh Zionist conspiracy! You would just have to post this now, when I have an understudied animal biol exam tomorrow.

Keep this spot warm for me, defending Jews is a hobby of mine!

amarc · June 2004

Well I think the conspiracy is more against Zionists rather than Jews <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Marine0I · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (amarc @ Jun 25 2004, 12:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well I think the conspiracy is more against Zionists rather than Jews</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yeah I know <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />. Its just that most sites propounding this sorta thing like to decorate the place with little swastika's, and there is almost always an undercurrent of fear and hatred rather than serious intellectual inquiry.

I cant defend everything the Zionists/Mossad do/does. Many are very hard, very aggressive men who are not afraid to use violence, terrorism and espionage to achieve their goals. The Zionist lobby is very large and powerful in America, and is ably supported by the Evangelicals who are convinced that they are making Biblical prophecy come true.

I havent watched that video - but I have a good reason. 33.6kbps of reasons actually <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

If that clip was anti-Zionist, then I'm not surprised it would stop showing it. FOX news is a very conservative news station, the sort that supports Israel and panders to the religious conservatives. The only thing that really shocks me is that they showed it at all. Still, things like that get erased from websites all the time when an editor decides they really shouldnt have printed that.

In Australia, the Labor government here has a habit of airbrushing/eliminating transcripts of its politicians making statements they later reverse/regret. Yet no one screams "pro-Labour Conspiracy", they just get insulted by the opposition.

As for Jewish spy rings - the hardline Zionists trust no one. Not the Americans, not anyone. Their existance doesnt surprise me in the slightest. While they are heavily reliant upon the grace of the USA, if they thought it would push things in their favour they would sell them out in a second.

That article from www.rense.com was massive, and I'm still plowing my way through it. One of the points I found most entertaining was the claim that Ariel "The Butcher" Sharon is trying to annex all the Palestinians land, while at the moment he is fighting his own party to get the Israeli's to fall back from Gaza. Whats really hard for me is the fact that I'm not allowed to dismiss an article based on a few points, but I dont have the 2.5 years required to go by and attack it point by point <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />

If they Israeli's knew about 911, I wouldnt expect them to alert the Americans. They live surrounded by hostile Arab nations, 911 was the best thing that ever happened to them.

Believing all that I typed above, why do I still support the Zionists? They are desperate, paranoid people with good reason. They see enemies everywhere, which isnt hard when you are surrounded by a hell of a lot of angry arabs, and you have over 1000 years of persecution behind you. Plus, I'm one of those said evangelicals. In the Bible God told the Jews that they would lose their homeland, be scattered and suffer immense persecution. Then eventually they would get their homeland back, rebuild the temple, and then bring on the end times! So far part one and two have come to pass. I dont think there is any stopping it.

Nemesis_Zero · June 2004

It's a strange day when I largely agree with one of Marines posts on Isreali politics, yet I do.

The big problem surrounding any kind of comment regarding Israels politics, especially for me, is that 'Israel' is focus point of so many political, religious, and societal movements that it's almost impossible to make a statement that'll be valued as neutral, and, even worse, that justified criticism appears often to be a hairs width away from superstitious and paranoid extremism. What we should always keep in mind when discussing this topic is that Zionism does not equal Judaism, that Israel is not a completely, or even predominantly, zionistic country, and that the actions of the Israeli government or its executive organs, particularily its secret services, are, all said and done, the actions of a clearly defineable assortment of persons, not of the zionistic movement.

With that in mind, I'll have to throw myself at your following statement, Marine:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>They are desperate, paranoid people with good reason. They see enemies everywhere, which isnt hard when you are surrounded by a hell of a lot of angry arabs, and you have over 1000 years of persecution behind you.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
As your last half sentence shows, this is an immensely historically saturated stance. It is true that the Jewish religion as a whole has been aim of innumerable attacks throughout the times, but this does not necessarily prove the heavily territorial stance the conservative Israeli political parties take right.
Yes, Israel was forced into multiple wars since its founding, but they are over. Where are the armies that rally for the total destruction of Israel today? Which of Israels neighbours displays currently actively - or even passively - aggressive tendencies?
The truth is that there is currently exactely one threat to Israels security: The radical palestenian terroristic movements, and while I won't agree with any of their actions either, it is in my perception plain to see that the radicallization of the Palestenenian populace has to be largely blamed on the often rationally unfounded actions of the Israeli administrations. Supporting the, as you put it, 'paranoid' stance that's taken by either sides is thus in my opinion not possible.

Ultra_SS2_Vegeta · June 2004

im having hard time to belive that israel had connection to 9.11 terrorism.

i wont lie, in cold think 9.11 was good for us, but was good for the world to wake up and fight terror. but still i dont think it was worth it. and i cant belive that the israeli goverement will let 3000 die for their interests, its very brutal and non human. actully in israel we more tight up with intellegnce on terrorism action in out area, and if U.S.A didnt know about the terrorism action, i have hard time to belive that isreal did.

<span style='color:white'>I don't want to forbid you your controversial viewpoint, but please take a closer look at the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43638' target='_blank'>rules</a> before posting them:
We require our users to found their claims on an argumentative and if possibly factually provable basis, do not permit generalizations, and if users before you made points on a certain aspect of the topic (in your case, the 'anti-zionistic' complex), it's much appreciated if you adress their arguments while offering your own point of view.
Also, and I know this sounds like nagging, but discussion posts tend to be rather long, which makes ortographically sloppy posts hard to read. Please use a spellchecker.

Feel free to re-edit this post with a rectified post.</span>

Stakhanov · June 2004

<span style='color:white'>Quoted post nuked for now, subsequently nuking this one.</span>

reasa · June 2004

Vegeta does have a point from his previous posts in his locked topic.

The media does seem to cover Israel’s actions in the conflict with a much more critical eye. Which in some ways is understandable considering the huge amounts of money we pour into Israel, we like to keep an eye on our investments.

But it was semi-difficult to dig this up, even from FOX, <a href='http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124099,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124099,00.html</a>
Now perhaps it's just that no one cares, however I find incidents like this much more important then some utterly worthless, stupid, pointless, "celebrity" trial.
Now if this had been Israel launching missiles into Palestine I have a feeling I would have heard about it in the paper this morning.

Ether way the mainstream media has effectively been ignoring the conflict for some time now.

...and hey look a new-ish emoticon <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/tsa.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tsa.gif' /> snazzy.

Nemesis_Zero · June 2004

Well, the disparity between the coverage of Israeli and Palestenian mistakes is in my opinion at least partly attributable to the difference in the applyable scales: On the one hand, the combatants are fanatic extremists, on the other, we have an army of a democratic country. It's not really possible to measure both against each other since the latter acts in the assumption of representing the inhabitants of the state of Israel, while the others are in no way linked to a democratic organization (keep in mind that describing Arrafat as 'president' stretches the term).
I, and I feel I'm not alone here, generally assume that a democratic government can not simply try to be 'not worse' than a terroristic force and then call it quits; it has to answer to a higher set of ideals.

Ultra_SS2_Vegeta · June 2004

i will answer when i will understand WTH u have just wrote. good and high english

Quaunaut · June 2004

Something Marine pointed out at the very end is something I myself have been studying for a long time now, being the hard-core Christian I am- the end times.

The stage has been set. Frankly were at the point now where we are on the verge of "The Rapture"- the dissappearence of all of the "True Believers" of the religion(being many religions base this, I will NOT say it is just Christianity, but according to mine this is how it is). And frankly, I do believe there is a big conspiracy involving America and Israel. Many things are protecting Israel, but as said they are supposed to be pushed out of their homeland then moved back in. Right now the religous zealots in Israel for the Jewish religion is growing and growing, but at the same time, is spreading itself very far apart from what Judaism was originally intended as- the religion to wait for the coming of the Messiah, while still being followers of God. Even though many of the old customs of Judaism have died(the sacrificing of animals/posessions and the such), many of the old ways are still here, but too, are dying out.

I am a hardcore believer in the rapture, but I'd also guess we have 10-70 years to go before "The Rapture" hits. And when it does, it gets bad, real quick.

But back to the subject: One thing I've been noticing is that the American seems to have less and less of what happens in Israel as part of their problems(probably because they can see whats happening- that the arab states are wanting to get rid of the Israeli's guard dog before they go for Israel and have no distractions left), but even though we are slowly pulling out Government wise- the media is still covering them in full, and is upping it a lot. Right now I think the media and the Israeli's have more or less a agreement on them to keep Israel as a world focus point, but I also think the media is making agreements with the arab states, being that we seem to have more and more reporters and journalists getting "Behind Enemy Lines", and getting these exclusive stories with the Terrorists. Now that America is backing out of Iraq, I think that its only a matter of time before all-out-war is declared on Israel. Though this also is signaling the Rapture in and of itself- a Worldwide War starts, largely due to the AntiChrist, and being that the world draws lines in the sand of where it belongs in the war between Israel and its bordering countries, but before all of this can even begin- The Rapture has to happen.

Its funny- as Nem said, Israel is the center of so many things, its hard not to talk about it without offending someone. Though I also find it funny that people keep trying to leave religion out of it- Israel's EVERYTHING is about religion. Everything has its hand in Judaism, Islam, or Christianity, and otherwise its all just bits and pieces.

Nemesis_Zero · June 2004

Admins note: I don't want to be disrespectful of your believes and understand that they factor into your opinion about the subject, but this topic is already difficult and controversial enough if only regarded from a secular point of view. Would it be possible to open a seperate topic about this?

Opinionated note:
Quanaut, about your point concerning 'the media', I'm a little bewildered here. 'The media' is no uniformous entity 'making deals' with states, the media is a highly heterogenous mass of small factions. It's flat out impossible to find anything more than general trends in the general coverage.
Also, my question remains. <i>Who</i> is supposed to declare war on Israel? The implicit argument behind many posts in here is that Israel is surrounded by ready and aggressive enemies, when there has been no political or military such sign from the neighbouring states for well over a decade.

reasa · June 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 30 2004, 05:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Also, my question remains. <i>Who</i> is supposed to declare war on Israel? The implicit argument behind many posts in here is that Israel is surrounded by ready and aggressive enemies, when there has been no political or military such sign from the neighbouring states for well over a decade.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Well I wouldn't say there have been <i>no</i> hostile signs from neighbors of Israel.

It's no secret that Saudi Arabia gives money to Palestinian terrorist organizations.
Egypt is involved in weapons trading with the Palestinians, and if not the Egyptian government it's self, they are certainly in no hurry to put a stop to any factions that may be doing it.

Syria and Lebanon are known to have weapons factories to help supply Palestinian terrorist groups. Also I believe Lebanon is known to occasionally shell Israel with artillery.

To say that the Arab population in nearly its entirety is not hostile towards Israel would be false. It's no secret that people in every country bordering them would love to seem them disappear from the face of the earth.

Nemesis_Zero · June 2004

It feels as though I've been here before...

Yes, I'm aware of the indirect support the Palestenian movements, both civil and terroristic, recieve from the most Arab nations. This can however not be equalled with aggressive behaviour, as such support is necessary for the respective governments to appease their own domestic radical minorities.
There's a difference between tolerating some dirty laundry in the own territories or paying what boils down to a few peanuts (keep in mind that Saudi Arabia is one of the richest countries on Earth), and preparing a war effort. Hell, the Arabic League removed the destruction of Israel from their charter in the early 90s and practices since then a policy of co-existence.

As for the Arab populations, you're generalizing a fair bit there. It'd maybe be best if we would find some polls on the subject.

Israel - America

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